Skating Club Ice Question

[LWalsh]

This is a question for those of you on your club's board.

Our club will be taking over FS ice time at our rink starting in the fall. It has long been the policy of the rink to not allow anyone on the ice who is not a USFSA member. They have always claimed this is for insurance purposes. The club has decided to adopt this policy as well after we take over the contracting of ice.

I know that there are other rinks that do not require USFSA membership and as near as I can tell there is nothing in any insurance that we or the rink buys from USFSA which has this requirment.

The problem came up because there is a Country Club (seasonal) rink nearby which is ISI. When a couple of kids tried to come over to our rink to try it out (and presumabley get into figure skating more seriously) they were told they could not skate unless they joined USFSA. One joined the following week but, one decided not to come back :cry: .

So does anyone have any insight to this? For those of you that have club ice, do you have any sort of policy to allow guest skaters for a few times before they must join? It seems to me that we could let skaters skate for two or three times or maybe reciprocate with skaters from ISI. Anything rather than turning them away at the door.

Please help.

Lara

[lovepairs]

At the Philadelphia Skating Club and Humane Society a "full member" is allowed to bring a "guest skater" somewhere around 3 times per season. The guest does not necessarily have to be a member of the USFSA, or the club. I'm not sure how they handle the liability issue in this situatation. I would call the club and ask the office directly how this is handled: www.pschs.org

If I were on your board, I would urge the other members to find a way to handle this "libaility" question, so that you don't hang yourself financially by eliminating too many skaters. Next thing you know you will be cutting back on freestyle sessions, because there are not enough skaters on the ice to justify the time. So-on-and-so-forth, until there is no club left at all.

Since you really don't need to invent the wheel on this one, why not site a 1/2 dozen clubs/rinks that have survived, and do a mini study of the different ways it is handled first before making a decision to put a rule in place that would not be cost effective.

[Debbie S]

I think it's up to the individual club to make policies about who skates on club ice. My home club does not offer club ice at the moment- they did in the past but have stopped for the time being b/c of the expense - and that was only on a night when the rink did not offer FS sessions, and this rink has a large number of FS sessions, so availability is never a problem. When they had club ice, it was offered either free or at a discounted rate than what people would pay the rink, so it was open only to club members.

Two other clubs near me offer club ice, at times when the rink does not have sessions. At one club, club ice (once/week) can only be bought by members (flo, is that true?) and you must buy it for the entire skating season, but guests can skate on it for up to 3 times at $10/week. I skated there as a guest before I joined the USFSA so I assume USFSA membership is not required to skate as a guest.

Another club offers club ice two nights a week during fall and winter at the same rate as the rink's sessions and that is the only option for those who like to skate at that rink at night (the rink's FS sessions are offered on these 2 days but end at 5:30). Anyone can purchase the package for either or both seasons. Because of the convenience of the rink to the people who skate there, many skaters on the club ice are guests - however, when you buy the club ice, you essentially become a non-home club member and can test there w/o paying a guest fee, so it's a good deal. If you don't buy the packages (you pick your hourly sessions and pay in 14-15 week chunks), you can skate as a walk-in 3 times a "season" (I think) for a couple dollars extra per session, and you do not have to be a member of the club (although I think you only get the benefit of "free" testing if you buy the ice in a package). When you buy the ice packages, this club does require you to fill out a form with name and contact info , including your USFSA number and home club, so I assume that you do have to be a member of the USFSA.

As far as rink-run FS sessions go, I skated on many FS sessions before I joined a club (and by extension, the USFSA). I sometimes had to sign a waiver form, but that I think is a standard thing everyone had to do, regardless of USFSA membership. I don't think skaters' USFSA membership automatically releases rinks from liability, but I'm not familiar with that issue so perhaps some of the club officers on this board can weigh in on that.

Since your club is the only source of FS ice for people wishing to skate at the rink, it makes sense for you to have some type of guest policy - either they pay a higher fee or have a limited number of times they can skate at the regular fee. Also, does your club run a group lesson/Learn to Skate program? At one rink where I skate, the club and rink each run their own programs (on different days) and it's a good way to introduce beginners to the USFSA and your club w/o requiring a large financial commitment.

[Terri C]

We allow skaters to skate two sessions as a guest (they will pay the walk on fee ) if the session is not full, which it usually isn't (club members do get priority). The third time, they need to join the club.

[Isk8NYC]

I was on the board of one USFSA-only Club. They allowed guests for up to three visits. After that, they joined as an associate or full member if they wanted to skate. We had a pit-bull ice monitor who tracked attendance like a maniac. Not every Club has that staff, however.

One of the local USFSA clubs requires everyone to join as an associate member for $40. Then, they can skate all they want. The associate membership includes USFSA membership through the Club, unless the skater already has USFSA membership.

Finally, I was a member of a joint USFSA/ISI Club. Joining as an associate (minimum requirement) bought you USFSA and ISI membership, unless you had a different "home" club membership already.

As for insurance, the USFSA and ISI both include insurance in their membership packages. You'd need to check your USFSA membership for their limits, but ISI is a $25k medical/dental sports injury plan. ($1,000 ded/injury)

I think the rink's freestyle policy was set to prevent beginners from getting hurt on the sessions, which IS an insurance risk. That's a separate issue that your Club will need to deal with. Many people who've never been involved with ISI consider the USFSA to be the "serious skater" league. I don't agree. I know many "serious" ISI skaters who can hold their own on a USFSA club freestyle session.

[Mrs Redboots]

We allow skaters to guest for a few weeks, if they wish, and a skater can also bring a guest - it's a great place to invite skaters who are over on an extended visit and introduce them to a coach so they can use the teaching ice after that. No skater has to be a member of NISA, but any skaters wishing to use club ice regularly are expected to join the club. There is talk of providing club wristbands to make identification easier, but I don't know if this will happen.

[skaternum]

Our club requires you to be a member (either full or associate) to use club ice. We do this because of $$. Ice around here is expensive, and the amount people pay per session doesn't cover the club's cost of renting the ice for that hour, even if we pack on the safe maximum number of skaters. Since the club's coffers subsidize the cost of the ice, we don't really want to be "chipping in" to pay for ice time for non-members. (Not to mention the fact that organizing and running club ice is very time-consuming for the volunteers who do it, so we're inclined to making it a "perk" for our members.) We usually fill the ice during the peak season, so we're not losing a few bucks by turning away non-members.

[blue111moon]

Since the club bears the ultimate responsibility for the skaters on their ice time, my club requires everyone on the ice to be a USFSA or ISI member. In addition, coaches must supply proof of PSA membership and individual liability insurance before teaching on club ice.

[Isk8NYC]

In addition, coaches must supply proof of PSA membership and individual liability insurance before teaching on club ice.I don't feel the PSA membership is necessary. (For the record, I'm a PSA member.) I saw this situation at a new rink where I taught two years ago. Another rink in the area REQUIRED PSA membership from all coaches, even the beginner LTS instructors. The new rink/skating director welcomed all coaches, so several coaches brought their students with them, leaving the PSA-rink entirely. If you're trying to build a new program, don't be exclusionary.

I absolutely agree about the Liability Insurance being a requirement. I have to give each rink a copy of my in-force policy before I can teach on their ice.

[blue111moon]

Since we have plenty of coaches, requiring PSA membership doesn't seem to be an issue with them. Also most of the other USFSA rinks have the same requirement (we're actually more liberal in our other requirements than the other rinks) so it's not seen as an unusual request.

[Kelli]

Most of the rinks in my area require USFSA or ISI membership to skate freestyle sessions. My home rink requires you to be a member of the rink (which is different from the club, but club membership covers rink membership as well) to step on the ice at ANY time.

[pairman2]

If the club handles all ice time they can set whatever policy they want, but keeping in mind that the more restrictive the policy, the more skaters may be cut out, the lower the ice revenue etc. It's simply a business decision. Sometimes those decisions indicate that someone saved a dime in order to lose a dollar. It happens all the time.

I think it's curious that the rink sponsered ice time, leading up to the described scenerio also had the usfsa restriction, particularly since virtually all rinks offer public skate sessions. From my observation, public sessions are grossly more accident prone and present the greatest liability. Becasue all rinks have some sort of blanket insurance policy, one of two things must have happened. The rink owner bargained for a lower insurance rate by requiring the usfsa membership, and/or, they simply made an over zealous interpretation of whatever policy was offered. Lawyers and insurance people have no interest in assuming any risk whatsoever.

In general, other then situations related to cumulative physical stress, ice injuries drop precipitously as skill levels rise. When I used to ice guard, a single crowded public session would almost always yeild at least one injury requiring a skater to leave the ice, occasionally in an ambulance. It's been a long time since I've heard of or have seen a single incedent on a freestyle session.

There are situations that present much greater risk on freestyle sessions then the lack of USFSA membership, which of course can be purchased by anyone. Sessions that are too crowded overall or those that allow too great a disparity between skill levels are the greatest risk. Allowing new little kids with no experience that should really be in Basic LTS, do not mix with Juv and above. My rink has a requirement that Freestylers have to have passed into at least USFSA Freestyle 1 to go on a freeskate session but this is often ignored.

[lovepairs]

Okay, let's talk about that: why is it such a free for all, policies are often ignored, and rink staff are underpaid teenagers for the most part who really could careless about monitoring anything.

I just spend over 4 months on a single-handled campaign to get the ice cut properly (which it used to be, before they hired the slacker Zamboni kid to cut the ice.) The kid was zipping around after late night hockey sessions just to get out of there leaving really dangerous ice lumps for the freestylers the next morning, which I would have to spend 15 minutes scrapping down. Took me 4 months to get to the top before management would even talk to the kid about it, finally threatened to fire the kid, now he cuts it properly so no one dies on the ice.

Why are rink run so poorly? No one seems to be home. No one seems to care. Management rarely even has a presence... Why are there no standards with regard to sessions, often having learn-to-skate toddlers on high level sessions? What's wrong with the parents who would send 4 year olds out there with pairs, dancers, and people throwing triples all over the place??? Please don't tell me it is because rinks are for-profit. Other profit making sports buisiness, such as tennis courts, bowling alleys, and golf ranges seem to be far more organized. So, what is it with rinks?

[Debbie S]

So, what is it with rinks?Well, rinks are different than these other sporting businesses b/c participants are not in closer proximity to one another. Also, being on land vs. being on ice skates on a slippery surface also affects injury risk levels. These other places all are set up so that a small number of people occupy a specific space and there is much less potential for physical contact (OK, I know that someone could get hit with a wayward golf ball or tennis ball, but those incidents are rare - people typically have the time and footing to jump out of the way).

I agree that public sessions are much more dangerous than FS sessions and I agree that having real beginners on the ice with high-level skaters increases risk, but I've seen plenty of instances where it's worked as long as people are aware of their surroundings (and the "beginners" aren't so beginner that they don't know how skate). I have been on a few sessions with kids who just stand there and stare, or are just oblivious to the world, or have no sense of safe space, and that does create a big problem. But I've also seen higher level skaters (and dancers especially) that just barrel their way through and don't warn people that they're coming (a simple "excuse me" will do) so you have to jump out of their way (and usually this is when you have your back to them so you can't even see them coming) at the last minute.

I started skating on FS sessions when I was in Basic 5, b/c I just couldn't get any practice done on crowded public sessions where the so-called practice area was basically a place for teenage girls to hang out and little kids to run through with those metal bars. I only skated 1 session a week, and tried to stay near the sides (so I could get out of the way of programs quickly) or in areas that seemed to not be getting a lot of traffic. I was always on the lookout for more advanced skaters coming near me. It's really an individual thing as to when skaters can skate on FS ice w/o being a hazard, and age of course has something to do with that, but not everything.

Just some thoughts.

[flo]

You can check with the USFSA for insurance issues. They are described in the club information section as well as under the learn to skate program. From being a VP on the board, I can tell you that there is coverage for club instructors with or without PSA membership.
All our non member guests, which do pay for the session, sign a rink waver, just as those do for a rink public session (disguised as an annual "registration card").
When we rent private ice, there is a similar waver.

[lovepairs]

I agree that public sessions are much more dangerous than FS sessions and I agree that having real beginners on the ice with high-level skaters increases risk, but I've seen plenty of instances where it's worked as long as people are aware of their surroundings (and the "beginners" aren't so beginner that they don't know how skate). I have been on a few sessions with kids who just stand there and stare, or are just oblivious to the world, or have no sense of safe space, and that does create a big problem. But I've also seen higher level skaters (and dancers especially) that just barrel their way through and don't warn people that they're coming (a simple "excuse me" will do) so you have to jump out of their way (and usually this is when you have your back to them so you can't even see them coming) at the last minute.

Yes, DebbieS, I agree with everything you say above, and have experienced it all. What I'll never get over though are parents who put their toddlers (barely our of diapers) who really don't have any control, on the ice during high level sessions and just stand there watching their kid in a totally dangerous situation, and think it's okay. Clearly, these little really little ones need to be in the Learn-to-Skate sessions. I've seen this many many times and really can't get over it. No body says anything to the parents--not even the coaches on the ice, management says nothing, the parents seem to be clueless about how dangerous this situation is, and everyone ignores it--no rules, no nothing. Even if there are rules about having to have passed certain tests to skate on certain sessions, they seem to be constantly ignored.

Plus, when are coaches going to begin to teach their kids what a "lift lane" is???

[Terri C]

Okay, let's talk about that: why is it such a free for all, policies are often ignored, and rink staff are underpaid teenagers for the most part who really could careless about monitoring anything.



Why are rink run so poorly? No one seems to be home. No one seems to care. Management rarely even has a presence... Why are there no standards with regard to sessions, often having learn-to-skate toddlers on high level sessions? What's wrong with the parents who would send 4 year olds out there with pairs, dancers, and people throwing triples all over the place??? Please don't tell me it is because rinks are for-profit. Other profit making sports buisiness, such as tennis courts, bowling alleys, and golf ranges seem to be far more organized. So, what is it with rinks?

Sadly at my rink, it was known for a good while that if you complained too much, even if the concerns were legitimate, you were told to skate elsewhere.
While things have gotten better, while we are talking about the LTS skater that can barely skate, why don't we examine the issue of LTS skaters going on freestyle sessions without signing in or paying. On our Saturday freestyle sessions this past year, it got to the point where the skating director or management would have to get the freestyle book, take it out on the ice and count the skaters on versus the ones who signed in.
Apparently, parents were not educated on this.

[LWalsh]

Thank you guys so much! The board is checking with the USFSA on the insurance issue. I really appreciated hearing about how your clubs handle this.

Lara

[lovepairs]

I'm going to start a new thread to continue this discussion about rink policies, because it is important and so, rarly, addressed...let's continue this discussion...