Adult Gold MIF and Intermediate - Test

[miraclegro]

Does anyone know the answer to this -- I am working on Adult Gold MIF and originally thought when i eventually pass these that i would be grandfathered in the standard track as Intermediate level. But i think i mis-read something, and now think i must pass Intermediate also to next go to the next level.

If this is the case, it appears there is only one more MIF at the same level under "Intermediate" that is not on the "Adult GOld MIF" list of patterns (Intermediate and Adult Gold are same moves, minus 1). When i test, can i ask for all to be combined and pay only one fee, or how does that work?

I have emailed USFS and have not yet gotten a response. Any input would be appreciated!

[phoenix]

You will switch over to the standard track beginning with Intermediate MIF. And you'll have to take the Intermediate as a whole separate test. I suppose you could take them both on the same day if you wanted, but you'd still pay for 2 tests. And of course you're risking money on the contingent test.

Remember the passing standards are different, so even though the elements are the same they're judging them a little differently, so you couldn't combine them anyway (besides, then they wouldn't get all that extra $$$ from you! :evil: )

[lovepairs]

Boy, did Phoenix get that right.

After passing the Adult Gold MIF, you can slide over to the standard track and test the Intermediate MIF. You will need to pass the Intermediate MIF, before taking another Intermediate test, such as the Intermediate Freestyle and Intermediate Pairs test.

I passed my Adult Gold MIF test in one try. I will be taking my Intermediate MIF test, again, at the end of August for the 4th time. All though these two tests (AGMIF and INTMIF) and identical with the exception of one pattern, they are totally judged at a different passing average and standard. This makes the INTMIF test soooooo much harder.

I made the same mistake: I thought "Oh, they're the same test, and I should take it right now while everything is fresh just having passed the AGMIF, then I won't have to throw more $$$ into lessons, ect..." Well, that was a year ago. I'm not saying don't take it, or don't pursue the INTMIF, I'm just giving you a heads up that although the two tests look the same, they are very different animals.

Plus, if you happen to get one judge on your panel who deep down believes that Adults shouldn't be testing on the standard track, then you are sunk no matter what you do. Before judges reading this start yelling at me, I'm not saying ALL judges, just some. :giveup: For example, we have had one judge in our area who has come out openly and said that she didn't think Adults should test standard track and is totally against it. However, this same judge refuses to recuse herself from panels where she has to judge adults on standard. A lot of skaters when they see her on the panel simply will not test, which means their hard work and test application fee goes right down the drain. Again, :giveup: I'm not saying the majority of judges feel, or behave this way, but there is an issue about Adults testing standard that has to be addressed and delt with by the skater when testing standard. Testing on the Standard Track as an adult is a very different experience then testing on the Adult Track as an adult. That's all I'm trying to say.

[Hannahclear]

Wow, first let me congratulate all the adults here working on or past Adult Gold. You are my inspiration!

If I'm reading the sites correctly, if you pass Adult Gold, you can compete in Adult Gold or Adult Championship Gold. But if you want to compete in Masters Championship, you have to pass Intermediate FS, right?

Also, how does grandfathering work on other levels on the Adult track/standard track?

[emma]

I passed adult gold moves this winter and am taking intermediate moves this summer. The focus is power and edge quality in intermediate moves and in adult gold they are not focused on power. I agree that these two test are really different test. I know two adults who have taken this test several times and have great power and had a clean test and not pass.I have also watched dozens of kids take this test and do quite frankly a terrible job and pass. So maybe there is a judging bias on adults in the standard track..

[dcden]

If I'm reading the sites correctly, if you pass Adult Gold, you can compete in Adult Gold or Adult Championship Gold. But if you want to compete in Masters Championship, you have to pass Intermediate FS, right?
Yes

Also, how does grandfathering work on other levels on the Adult track/standard track?
There was a whole chart developed by the Adult Skating committee which passed last summer, I believe. It lists the crossover rules from standard to adult for MIF and FS. Does anyone have those charts that can be linked here?

[pairman2]

Tables

In the 2006 rule book:

Crossovers for Standard track MIF to Adult MIF is on page 343, TR19.02
Tables for Standard MIF to Adult FS tests is on page 361, TR28.01
A very important paragraph regarding Gold skaters who have no prior MIF test because their gold test preceded the adult MIF structure, can be found on page 360, TR26.02

I don't think the rule book contents can be obtained on line but if it is someone can correct me.

[Hannahclear]

I've got my copy at home! Thanks for the references.....

So I gather that except for Adult Gold, adult tests do not transfer over to standard track, right?

[doubletoe]

I've got my copy at home! Thanks for the references.....

So I gather that except for Adult Gold, adult tests do not transfer over to standard track, right?

The Adult Gold MIF test doesn't transfer to the standard track, either. It's just that it's the last adult test and once you've passed it, you are allowed to start testing on the standard track, starting with Intermediate. You cannot transfer over from the Adult track to the standard track at any lower level, although you CAN transfer over at any level from the standard track to the equivalent level on the Adult track.

[miraclegro]

Thanks, everyone, for all the info... you all have been great!

I can't help but think that as close to completion of Intermediate level as the Adult Gold is, it seems that USFS is a little greedy on the $$ side of things. I'd rather have it all combined, even if i failed it and had to re-try. It makes me a little angry at the system set up. Most of the rest i am okay with.

I guess i'll have to work my hardest to test the Adult Gold at the Intermediate quality, so that when i send USFS my VERY hard-earned money, i won't be even more frustrated.

[lovepairs]

I passed adult gold moves this winter and am taking intermediate moves this summer. The focus is power and edge quality in intermediate moves and in adult gold they are not focused on power. I agree that these two test are really different test. I know two adults who have taken this test several times and have great power and had a clean test and not pass.I have also watched dozens of kids take this test and do quite frankly a terrible job and pass. So maybe there is a judging bias on adults in the standard track..

I've seen this, too!

Miraclegrow,

They are two very very different test, and could never be combined.

In order to become an Adult Master Pair team we have no choice but to slide over to the Standard Track take the Intermediate Moves then the Intermediate Pairs test. If we pass the Intermediate Pairs test we become Adult Master Pairs. Quite frankly, I think this is screwed up. I think they should have just continued the the Adult Track to include an Adult Master Pairs test. It just seems strange to have to slide over into a space that isn't designed for adults in order to slide back into an Adult title...see what I'm sayin? I don't mind the challenge of being on the kids track, so much, if I didn't feel there was a prejudice against me for being there. Hey, I didn't ask to be there, but there is no other avenue to become an Adult Master Pair skater...so, wadda ya want from me??? :frus: :P :giveup: :bow:

[cecealias]

Here's my 0.02 cents.

I think the adult moves don't prepare the skater adequately to crossover to the Intermediate MITF. A lot of the key moves are missing that build the power, edge quality, core checking, quickness and knee bend they're looking for at Intermediate MITF.

If you have passed Adult Gold, and want to test Intermediate MITF, my recommendation would be to go back and work on passing all the standard track moves through Juvenile. Yes, hate me for saying this, but this way you build a very solid foundation.

Nobody likes the grunt conditioning work, but it makes it easier to work on the more advanced moves than trying over and over again and getting stuck on the higher level tests, because the foundation isn't there.

If you master the low level moves, and by that I mean doing the low level moves with a lot of proficiency and smoothness, way beyond test standard, the hard stuff becomes easy.

If you think it's bad at Intermediate, wait till Novice. I've seen adults stuck there for years struggling with the steps because their basic foundation really needs work.

Nobody likes it, but the most valuable suggestion i'd give is to go back to lower level skills and refine them before moving up. The same concept applies to jumps and spins. If the double or triple jump isn't working, go back to the single. If the spin combination isn't working, go back to the solo spin, etc etc.

[Hannahclear]

That really does make sense. I'll keep that in mind, many years down the road. :o

[Stormy]

I actually passed Intermediate about a year and a half before I passed Gold. And because I was working on Gold, I neglected Novice, which I'm working on now. Novice is going to take FOREVER!

[Debbie S]

I think the adult moves don't prepare the skater adequately to crossover to the Intermediate MITF. A lot of the key moves are missing that build the power, edge quality, core checking, quickness and knee bend they're looking for at Intermediate MITF.What moves are you referring to? The only standard track moves that are missing from the adult track are the Prelim spirals, the alt 3's (although I and many others did have to pass these b/c we tested Pre-Bronze MIF before Sept of last year - we missed the waltz 8, although my coach taught it to me as an exercise to help with the power 3's and 5-step), and the Juv back power 3's. Now, I could see where working on the back power 3's would be important, to prepare you for the Int back stroking w/ back power 3's around the end, but I don't know how important the others are beyond the moves adults would have tested by the time they finish Gold.

Or are you saying that the judges have lower expectations for adults and don't require them to demonstrate skills to the degree that they'll need them in Intermediate and beyond? Well, I think that varies with the judge and with the skating/judging culture of different regions of the country.

[cecealias]

Before the adult moves were revised in 2005, the following moves were missing from the adult testing structure:

power pulls from pre-juv test
back power threes from the juvenile test (and still doesn't exist on adult track iirc)
alternating spirals from preliminary

The back power 3s plays a big role on the outside double 3 pattern and on the back perimeter power stroking with back power 3s. The back power 3s are revisited again on the slide chasse pattern. Power pulls play a foundation role in the slide chasse pattern - rip on the inside edge, as well as learning the how to generate power effectively with control - good for forward and backward power circles.So if you think back power3s aren't important to have solid before intermediate mitf, think again. This one move from the juvenile test shows up 3 times on the Intermediate test and the power level is expected to be higher than the previous level, where the skill is first demonstrated.

Also the preliminary alt-3s were on the pre-bronze test and scored pass/fail instead of at standard track prelim test at 2.5 which IMHO is a significant difference. Also note that the Backward russian stroking is on the bronze test, scored at 2.5 instead of the 2.7 set for pre-juv standard test, another significant difference. I believe the order and standard at which the moves are tested on adult track can contribute to the problems mentioned earlier.

[Hannahclear]

This is such an interesting discussion, I'm just learning about marks and such because the ABM test I just took was the first ever for me with scores.

Another diff between IM and AGM is that AGM requires a 3.0 and IM requires a 3.2 (average).

I think adult skaters should accept that their pass levels are below standard track. There is no attempt to hide this by the judges. So why would one expect to be at IM level when one has passed AGM?

[pairman2]

Hannahclear, your last comment is correct

For the Intermediate moves, the most accurate word for FOCUS should be 'ATTACK'. From what I've observed, judges will forgive minor bobbles but they will not forgive anything less then total attack and this is exactly where many adults come up just a little short. What feels like 'letting it fly' to an adult, often still looks reserved when compared to a kid skater. Having said that, I have also seen a couple instances where truely substandard kids where passed when compared to adults taking the test in the same flight. I think the lesson there is not neccesarily that they judged the adults wrong, but that they judged the kid very wrong. Sometimes, it appears that there is an unspoken pressure to keep a kid moving in the test system.

[lovepairs]

where many adults come up just a little short

Stho, you're sthayin I'm comin up short! Well, you should have stheen yoursthelf flyin around that rink. I'll take good "form" over "attack" any day! Okay, stho I sthkate my IM like figures--sue me :frus: :halo: ;)

[Figureskates]

You people are definitely inspirational.:bow: :bow: :bow:

Now, does anyone know where I can go to knock about 40 years off my age, which is about the only chance I stand of ever going beyond bronze!:D

[Debbie S]

Also the preliminary alt-3s were on the pre-bronze test and scored pass/fail instead of at standard track prelim test at 2.5 which IMHO is a significant difference. Also note that the Backward russian stroking is on the bronze test, scored at 2.5 instead of the 2.7 set for pre-juv standard test, another significant difference. I believe the order and standard at which the moves are tested on adult track can contribute to the problems mentioned earlier.Again, the variations in standards between adult and standard track for the same moves does vary depending on the judge. There are plenty of judges who just apply the same standards to a move no matter which test they're judging. I've heard judges say outright that "the standard is the standard" and that they judge adults using the same standards as the kids.

I remember when I was working on Pre-Bronze MIF my coach told me that based on what she had seen in judging of adults, the judges would probably apply a Prelim standard and not a Pre-Prelim (b/c of the Prelim moves on the test), even though the test was pass/retry. One judge (who is known to be one of the toughest judges in our area) clearly applied a much higher standard than the other judges (commenting that my circles on the back crossover figure 8's were not of equal size, that my transition on the forward crossovers was too diagonal, and that my outside alt 3's were wide-stepped (only in the transitions from right to left). Yes, this was true, but in reality, not as severe as the comments made it out to be - and if it was supposed to be judged like a Pre-Prelim test, then based on what I've seen happen with judging of Pre-Prelim tests, I'd say those expectations were a bit strict. On the flip side, based on some Prelim MIF tests I've seen recently, I'd say the judging can get pretty lenient with the alt 3's, even applying the 2.5 standard.

Another example: the second time I tested Bronze MIF, the judges were all clearly applying a Pre-Juv standard, or at least not following the adult focus of "continuous flow and strength" - for one, every comment used the term "power" - "Power OK" or "no power after 3's" (power 3's), etc. (Btw, I passed both the forward and back perim stroking that day.)

FWIW, a skater in my area who is working on Intermed MIF after passing Gold MIF told me her coach told her to forget she ever passed those moves - basically start again to get to Intermed standard.

[jenlyon60]

FWIW, if I tried to write the whole phrase "continuous flow and strength" in a block on a MIF form, I'd either use up most of the space (and time) or it would be unreadable.

I might use the word "power" to get the point across, even when applying the adult primary focus, or I might use the word "flow". It also depends on what I am viewing (how it looks).

For example, even on an adult test, if it looks like there is minimal push on the stroking (on the first 2 elements) and the skater barely maintains consistent speed from start to finish (or start to end of first side, and picks up minimal speed from the end pattern), I would probably comment something like "minimal power generated" rather than "lacked continuous flow and strength". Mostly because to me the comment "minimal power generated" conveys a better "what needs to be worked on" to the coach and skater than "lacks continuous flow and strength"

hope this helps.

[Debbie S]

Thanks for the insight, Jen. My current beef with adult moves testing and judging is that standards can vary widely from one judging panel to the next. I'm sure the judging of kids can also seem inconsistent at times, but I feel that with the adult track it's worse. I've seen (and heard about) tests where the judges were extremely tough and definitely applying kid standard (and a high one at that) and then there are other tests where it seems that much more allowance is made for adults, esp in the area of power and flow.

Here's a question/thought: Has the term "continuous flow and strength" ever actually been defined, and is there a consensus/direction as to how that standard differs from "power"? If not (and I haven't seen anything written), then that could be where a lot of the inconsistency is coming from.

[Hannahclear]

I think skating judging can be inconsistent at times, from the very lowest levels to Olympic events.

There's no way around that in a subjective sport.

[LoopLoop]

Hannahclear, your last comment is correct

For the Intermediate moves, the most accurate word for FOCUS should be 'ATTACK'. From what I've observed, judges will forgive minor bobbles but they will not forgive anything less then total attack and this is exactly where many adults come up just a little short. What feels like 'letting it fly' to an adult, often still looks reserved when compared to a kid skater.

It seems that for ALL of the MIF tests from intermediate and up, ESPECIALLY novice-senior, attack is crucial. At novice and up, presentation starts to matter, too. Not presentation as in skating "pretty" but skating with confidence, head up, shoulders down, etc. By the time a skater tests to senior moves, according to some judges I've spoken to, there should be an air of "eat your heart out" or "take THAT" to the test. Any show of tentativeness or holding back dooms a junior or senior test.

[jazzpants]

By the time a skater tests to senior moves, according to some judges I've spoken to, there should be an air of "eat your heart out" or "take THAT" to the test.FWIW, I've already got those types of suggestions for my Bronze Moves test! LOL!!! :lol: :P

Jenlyons60: Heck I've been at Bronze Moves for ages and I still don't know the difference between "continuous flow and strength" and "power", at least the way my judges wants to see them. So I just aim for power and do them as a passing kid would do them!!! I gave up trying to figure out what's passing on an adult track's skating test. :giveup:

Turns out to be a good thing, since my last retry last year was a better one. (No, I still haven't taken my Bronze Moves test yet... SOON!!!!)

[lovepairs]

Now, does anyone know where I can go to knock about 40 years off my age, which is about the only chance I stand of ever going beyond bronze!

Yes, the ice turns back the hands of time. The more you skate the younger you become! :D

[jazzpants]

Yes, the ice turns back the hands of time. The more you skate the younger you become! :DAmen to that! I still look like a mid 20's skater and I'm closing in on 40... 8O

[LoopLoop]

Heck I've been at Bronze Moves for ages and I still don't know the difference between "continuous flow and strength" and "power", at least the way my judges wants to see them. So I just aim for power and do them as a passing kid would do them!!! I gave up trying to figure out what's passing on an adult track's skating test. :giveup:

Jazz, I think that in the context of MIF "power" means INCREASING power throughout the move, whereas "continuous flow and strength" means MAINTAINING a consistent flow throughout the move rather than slowing down as you go.

Jen, is that how you interpret it?

[jenlyon60]

Jazz, I think that in the context of MIF "power" means INCREASING power throughout the move, whereas "continuous flow and strength" means MAINTAINING a consistent flow throughout the move rather than slowing down as you go.

Jen, is that how you interpret it?

Yes. I want to see the amount of power/flow at the end that I see at the beginning. For example, the skater should not be slowing down at the end of the first side, then picking up power from the 3 or 4 cross-overs around the end of the rink, then moving pretty good as they start the 2nd side, then slowing down again at the end of the 2nd side.

FOr the alternating forward power crossovers: I also want to see that the forward crossovers don't look STEPPED. I want to see 1 good push (onto the FO edge), and some semblance of an attempt at an underpush (onto the FI edge), and a good push onto the FI of the other foot. An occasional short flat may be acceptable... but it has to be very short. If it's obvious that the transition edge is finishing the lobe of the cross-over THEN rocking over to the FI, or never rocking over, then the pattern is being skated incorrectly.

Hope this helps.

[Spreadeagle]

miraclegro, if you are looking to save money and time by taking only one test, what you could do is just take the Intermediate MIF. This crosses over to the Adult Gold, so you could skip Adult Gold MIF and just do the Gold FS test. That's what I did.

However, this would only work if you have passed all the pre-Intermediate MIF tests on standard track. If you have only tested Adult MIF, I think your only choice is to take both.

I would really doubt that you would be able to pay only one fee for both tests. But it is *possible* that you could take both tests at the same time with a double panel of judges. One panel could judge you doing Gold and at the same time, the other could judge Intermediate. You would probably need to ask your test chair. I haven't ever heard of this happening, but I do know that they use double panels occasionally with dance or pairs tests, so both partners can test at the same time. It might be worth asking!

[Mrs Redboots]

Yes. I want to see the amount of power/flow at the end that I see at the beginning. For example, the skater should not be slowing down at the end of the first side, then picking up power from the 3 or 4 cross-overs around the end of the rink, then moving pretty good as they start the 2nd side, then slowing down again at the end of the 2nd side.What happens if, as in my back cross-rolls, I pick up speed down the sides of the rink doing the cross-rolls, then slow down doing crossovers across the end of the rink? My cross-rolls are better than my crossovers any day of the week!

[doubletoe]

What happens if, as in my back cross-rolls, I pick up speed down the sides of the rink doing the cross-rolls, then slow down doing crossovers across the end of the rink? My cross-rolls are better than my crossovers any day of the week!

On that move, I believe the end pattern is "optional" so I don't imagine it would count against you. On moves where the end pattern is part of the actual move (like the back power 3's on the Intermediate test), it would be a different story.

[lovepairs]

On that move, I believe the end pattern is "optional" so I don't imagine it would count against you. On moves where the end pattern is part of the actual move (like the back power 3's on the Intermediate test), it would be a different story.

Doubletoe,

I hope the end pattern on the back power 3's is part of that move. Otherwise, I've been takin a lot of falls and knockin myself out for nottin! LOL!!! Still working on the lutz / loop -- I am beginning to see the potential!

[coskater64]

Okay, while it might seem easier to take the AGM and the IM as one test it just not possible. As noted earlier the passing standards are different, as are the tests. The AGM is the final adult test the one you get your gold medal for it requires a standard equal to that of the Juv moves both are 3.0. The intermediate does require more power and ability to show that you can build power. Having recently seen some nice intermediate tests a lot of the skater's sold their moves showing quality and power, to say you can't do it as an adult is silly, it just takes us a little longer. My intermediate moves only took 9 months and 2 tries, the novice took almost 2 years and 5 tries. Because I had to work really hard on the novice I find the Jr easier, will I ever pass them, probably -- it will just take time and when I pass them I will be ready for my Sr.moves.:)

[daisies]

I would really doubt that you would be able to pay only one fee for both tests. But it is *possible* that you could take both tests at the same time with a double panel of judges. One panel could judge you doing Gold and at the same time, the other could judge Intermediate. You would probably need to ask your test chair. I haven't ever heard of this happening, but I do know that they use double panels occasionally with dance or pairs tests, so both partners can test at the same time. It might be worth asking!

They are two separate tests, and thus two separate fees must be paid.

It would be impossible to do a double panel to take both tests at the same time. A skater isn't even allowed to take the Intermediate MIF until he/she has passed the Adult Gold MIF (or the Juvenile MIF).

[jazzpants]

You can take both on the same day, but yes, it's two separate tests (therefore two separate fees) and the Gold MIF would have to be a prerequisite to take the Intermediate MIF test.

So say Skater A signs up to do both the Gold MIF test and the Intermediate MIF test, the Gold MIF test is scheduled to be done first and only after that test is passed are they allowed to continue to test the Intermediate MIF test. If Skater A doesn't pass the Gold MIF test, s/he does not take the Intermediate MIF test. (I've typically seen test schedules done where Skater A's Gold Moves and Intermediate Moves warmup be on separate warmup groups...)

If the intent that I get from Spreadeagle is to just do the moves for both tests but with two panel of judges, one panel for each test...yeah, sorry! That's not possible! You have to do the same moves twice! The way I see it is you can warm up those Int Moves by doing the Gold Moves tests and then if you pass, you can "kick it up a notch" or adjust the focus for those moves on the Intermediate Moves test. :)

Clear as mud?

[miraclegro]

Wow! i never thought my original post would have so much response! I guess i'll just have to do the best i can, which is what i'm doing....but, i am wondering if the "power" thing you all are referring to is just the initial push on each segment of the move, and making it a good strong PUSH, and then making sure there is a consistent pattern along with shoulder control....right?

And, i guess i will just have to work on testing the Adult GOld as if i will be testing for Intermediate....I just wish i could get them all over with at the same time! I think they short-changed us (or ar trying to rob us financially) when there is just one move shy (Adult GOld)of the whole set of moves (Intermediate). I am already hard on myself, my coach is hard on myself, and i would just like to add the one blasted move and get them all done at once! I suppose i will have to be over the top for skill level when i test ! Thanks for all your input!

[miraclegro]

I just re-read your response, and no, i did not take the standard track. I started with just pre-bronze and bronze adult level and that was when there were no moves required. THen they added required moves, and believe me, i worked HARD to achieve Silver status for MIF. I wish i had just done the standard track at this point, and will work on the ones i missed in the next months to come, just to learn them.

I appreciate your suggestion, and will talk to or email the test chair about this slightly unusual request.

THanks for your time!

[doubletoe]

I think they short-changed us (or ar trying to rob us financially) when there is just one move shy (Adult GOld)of the whole set of moves (Intermediate). I am already hard on myself, my coach is hard on myself, and i would just like to add the one blasted move and get them all done at once!

Out of curiosity, have you actually mastered the one Intermediate move that isn't on the Gold test? Before I started learning it, I felt the exact same way you do. It took me 5-1/2 months to learn the moves for the Gold test and pass that test, but since then, I've spent another 5 months just working on this one Intermediate move and it's still kicking my butt! It makes the brackets seem fun! So I now see these tests as two separate tests, LOL!

[sk8er1964]

Out of curiosity, have you actually mastered the one Intermediate move that isn't on the Gold test? Before I started learning it, I felt the exact same way you do. It took me 5-1/2 months to learn the moves for the Gold test and pass that test, but since then, I've spent another 5 months just working on this one Intermediate move and it's still kicking my butt! It makes the brackets seem fun! So I now see these tests as two separate tests, LOL!

That move's the only one I didn't pass when I took that test. Thankfully, I had enough over passing on enough of the other elements to make up for it.

Someone said that the AGM isn't proper preparation for Novice, and ITA. I'm working on them now, and if you think the Intermediate is hard, wait until you see Novice!

[jazzpants]

Someone said that the AGM isn't proper preparation for Novice, and ITA. I'm working on them now, and if you think the Intermediate is hard, wait until you see Novice!Hey! They don't call Novice Moves "Nervous Moves" for nuttin', 'ya know!!! :twisted: ;)

[doubletoe]

That move's the only one I didn't pass when I took that test. Thankfully, I had enough over passing on enough of the other elements to make up for it.

Someone said that the AGM isn't proper preparation for Novice, and ITA. I'm working on them now, and if you think the Intermediate is hard, wait until you see Novice!

That's exactly why I have no plans of ever testing Novice, LOL! I just figured I might as well take the Intermediate test, since there was just one more move to learn. . .

[WhisperSung]

I'll second the Novice Moves being a bear comment.

5 years (okay, I haven't tried the test for the past 2 years, at least) and 9 tries. I've been working on them the last two years with an international ice dance coach, and the 10th time had better be a charm 8O

(sadly enough, I can walk through the novice free test in my sleep, and the junior moves are a lot more enjoyable to me than novice. the only thing i even remotely like on novice are the counters and swing rocker choctaws. eep!)