Another example of horrible coverage for adult skaters again!

[Jennifer28]

I just got back in the country from vacation and looked at my SKATING Magazine. I was so disappointed again. Why? Because the essence of adult skating is rarely ever captured. This year it was the same people again from the adult championship levels from Adult Nationals – again and again every year! Last year I felt that SKATING made some progress. There was a section dedicated to different skaters that was wonderful. Well this year it was the same old junk. Only real coverage of the championship levels of most of the same people again.
When will they learn? What makes the $$ at AN is the lower levels, bronze, silver and gold ladies and men. There’s more to adult skating than just championship skaters. CHAMPIONSHIP SKATERS ARE JUST OLDER VERSIONS OF INTERMEDIATE, NOVICE, ETC. LEVEL SKATERS. Let’s cover some real adult skaters here.
There’s more to adult skating than double jump after double jump. There’s actually good looking bronze and silver skaters out there doing interesting elements. Most adults who read SKATING are lower level and aspire to become good skaters. It would be nice to know what other lower levels are doing among the ladies and the men!
What should we expect when we start competing at those levels? And you don’t have enough space, SKATING magazine? Then try mixing it up then year after year then. Or try to cover us in a couple of parts over a series.
First we have to deal with all of the over coverage of adults being viewed only as goofy interpretive skaters now we get to only see the “elite” of adult skating. What prebronze adult is going to look at that and think that they’re ever good enough to go to AN?

[Debbie S]

What prebronze adult is going to look at that and think that they’re ever good enough to go to AN?Well, I'm a Pre-Bronze skater who is hoping to qualify for AN next year, and I've been reading the coverage of AN in Skating mag for several years, and I've never really been discouraged by the coverage of the Champ winners. I've operated under the assumption that there is limited space, as well as limited time for one person (the Skating mag editor, can't remember her name) to interview people and write articles, so I've never felt offended by the coverage.

Your points are well-taken though, and I would also like to see more coverage of skaters at the lower levels. As several people have pointed out here recently, Skating mag has limited resources, and if we want to have more coverage of adult events, then we need to step up and provide the content.

The space issue is another consideration, but I suspect the USFSA would be happy to give more space if the articles and photos (probably a limited amount of inches) were supplied to them and were of publishable quality and didn't need 50 hours of editing. More pages means they can sell more advertising space. If it can't all go in one issue, then, as you suggested it can be spread out over several.

Didn't Skating mag cover the Hackensack camp last year?

[dcden]

Well this year it was the same old junk. Only real coverage of the championship levels of most of the same people again.

Well the two skaters on the cover are newcomers to adult nationals, so it wasn't the same people again. I would also hesitate calling coverage of the championship medalists, whether they've won once or ten times, "the same old junk". To win at that level is a grand accomplishment, and one that should inspire adults of all levels.

First we have to deal with all of the over coverage of adults being viewed only as goofy interpretive skaters now we get to only see the “elite” of adult skating.
It seems that the standard pattern of covering events in Skating magazine is to cover the medalists in the senior or championship events. I suppose they could mention the winners of all test levels (as they did for their synchro coverage) but for AN there may not be enough space to cover all the age groups within each test level as well (since there is no championship round for bronze and silver). Maybe that's why the editors decided to limit the coverage to just the championship events.

And as Debbie alludes to, coverage of adult skating is in almost every issue of Skating nowadays, with a coverage of an adult camp or a feature on a certain adult skater or skaters. These articles usually focus on the non-championship folks, and the subjects are chosen not for their competitive results but for the "human interest" factor of their life story. E.g. there have been articles on adult skating couples who met on the ice, or skaters who recovered from serious illness.

[dcden]

I was so disappointed again. Why? Because the essence of adult skating is rarely ever captured.

Also keep in mind, the "essence of adult skating" is probably defined differently for each adult skater. Some may think the essence is in the championship events. I know many others would argue it comes from the fun of the interpretive events (not me necessarily but I know those who do). I'm just sayin'.

[Terri C]

It used to be that they published the podium shots of all the medalists at the event at AN, but two years ago that was stopped due to lack of........ funding for Skating magazine. This was not only eliminated for the AN medalists, but for the standard track regionals and sectionals as well.
Bottom line is, Skating magazine needs better adult skating coverage and I don't mean about such and such a skater that overcame "obstacles" to achieve what they've won or accomplished. We all have obstacles of some sort.

[Hannahclear]

They don't write up competitors at the Intermediate level of Regionals either, do they?

I think the coverage should be on the highest level of Adult Skating, to give skaters something to strive for. The USFSA isn't going to see too much merit in covering Bronze because it's a relatively low level. They want to promote the growth and mastery demonstrated by some adults.

I don't have a problem with it at all. In fact, I enjoyed the article. I've love to be there one day. Doubt it, but it's something nice to think about.

[dcden]

Bottom line is, Skating magazine needs better adult skating coverage and I don't mean about such and such a skater that overcame "obstacles" to achieve what they've won or accomplished. We all have obstacles of some sort.

Well the article I was thinking of when I commented on the human interest side of coverage dealt with skaters who recovered from breast cancer. Yes, we all have obstacles of our own to deal with, but I highly doubt that me overcoming my habit of staying up late to make it to the rink in the morning really ranks up there with someone overcoming breast cancer. However, if you feel that you or another skater has a personal story that is of interest to the readership, please, as Debbie says, "step up and provide the content."

But keep in mind, we can't all have our picture splashed on glossy pages of Skating magazine. Given the lack of space and funding for the magazine, the editors will very justifiably give priority to the skaters who grab the most attention, e.g. the championship skaters and the flamboyant interpretive skaters that have, as Jennifer28 pointed out, have received the coverage of adult skating over the years.

[dcden]

They don't write up competitors at the Intermediate level of Regionals either, do they?

I think the coverage should be on the highest level of Adult Skating, to give skaters something to strive for. The USFSA isn't going to see too much merit in covering Bronze because it's a relatively low level. They want to promote the growth and mastery demonstrated by some adults.

I don't have a problem with it at all. In fact, I enjoyed the article. I've love to be there one day. Doubt it, but it's something nice to think about.

WORD.

BTW I've never had any coverage of my skating either, other than the pictures they used to have on the results (b&w) pages but don't anymore. I think that is one thing that keeps me going... knowing that if I can just make it to the edge of that championship podium, I may get a write-up in the magazine.

[Hannahclear]

I just went and pulled out my copy before recycling, so I could review.

There is a significant section near the beginning that does mention the 88 different events and how silver and bronze skaters make up most of these skaters. Then, it talks about how most adult skaters took up skating later, sportmanship and friendship etc. And here's a quote:

"If you're not sure what adult skating is really all about, start with watching those levels. You'll certainly marvel at the skills of the championship competitors, but you'll really feel figure skating in your heart when you take the time to watch the courage of a newcome to the sport-whether they are 25 or 60."

So right there, the author of this article (Laura Fawcett p. 19) is going out of her way to mention silver and bronze level skaters and encourage those interested in skating as adults to start by watching those levels.

I'd love to make Championship Gold Ladies someday, probably the highest I can realistically aspire to. Now that I've seen the write-up, I know the effort is worth it? ;)

[jazzpants]

Just a silly question... have you consider writing your own article about an adult skater that you feel is worth mentioning about and IS newsworthy? Maybe if you take the direct route of being a contributing editor to Skating Magazine, you might finally get the coverage of adult skaters that you want to see? Get pictures of the skater that you want to cover too, so Skating Magazine doesn't have to worry of photography and such.

Best part, you can put in contributing editor for Skating Magazine on your resume! :D

[MusicSkateFan]

Well, I feel it was about par for the course in adult coverage. I am quite new to the whole thing so I dont have much to go on! I do feel the skating magazine is a little too "fluff" centered.

My only gripe is that I had heard from high ranking people that the write up this year was going to be BIG with the most pictures ever...etc. etc. showing winners from MANY events.. Was this the case? I am too new to say!

Of course this was also the month that the US postal service completely mangled my copy!:cry:

[manleywoman]

I think the adult coverage has been incredibly improved and addressed over the years, so I think Skating Mag is doing a great job. For goodness sake, ANs made the COVER!! Who'da thunk it?

[lovepairs]

Jennifer,

Thank you for throwing this thread. I totally agree with you. I was going to start this thread myself, but thought at this point that tomatoes would be thrown at my screen. :giveup:

It used to be that they published the podium shots of all the medalists at the event at AN, but two years ago that was stopped due to lack of........ funding for Skating magazine.

Podium shots of the Pairs competition from Dallas, TX, AN can be seen by going to:

www.adultpairskating.com

Click on "Adult Nationals" then click on "2006, Dallas, TX"

[dbny]

Just a silly question... have you consider writing your own article about an adult skater that you feel is worth mentioning about and IS newsworthy? Maybe if you take the direct route of being a contributing editor to Skating Magazine, you might finally get the coverage of adult skaters that you want to see? Get pictures of the skater that you want to cover too, so Skating Magazine doesn't have to worry of photography and such.

Best part, you can put in contributing editor for Skating Magazine on your resume! :D

What a great idea! Someone here, please do it.

[dcden]

I do feel the skating magazine is a little too "fluff" centered.

On this point, I do agree. It would be nice if Skating magazine would cover more controversial aspects of the sport (at all levels, not just adult). Like have editorials or pro/con pieces e.g. on the new COP, Michelle Kwan in Torino, danger of risky elements in pairs skating, etc. Unfortunately, since the magazine is an extension of USFS, they are going to do what's in the best interest of promoting their top skaters or programs, and present a united front while doing so. Result: a magazine with a lot of fluff.

[Terri C]

I know that there is a adult skating e-magazine called "32 Degrees" and that there was a newsletter/magazine years ago that was put together by either someone on the Adult Skating Committee or with very close ties to the committee. Maybe this is a idea- to resurrect that publication.

[sk8pics]

"If you're not sure what adult skating is really all about, start with watching those levels. You'll certainly marvel at the skills of the championship competitors, but you'll really feel figure skating in your heart when you take the time to watch the courage of a newcome to the sport-whether they are 25 or 60."

So right there, the author of this article (Laura Fawcett p. 19) is going out of her way to mention silver and bronze level skaters and encourage those interested in skating as adults to start by watching those levels.

Well, my reaction to reading that was, that's all? After saying that, they couldn't even mention the names of the gold medalists in silver or bronze? It wasn't a bad article, but I was a little disappointed, too. {shrug}

[skaternum]

My 2 cents: most of what we seem to see in Skating magazine is either the coverage of AN or the regular articles they publish. I understand that the AN coverage rightfully focuses on the winners of the Championship events. That makes sense. And guess what? They're almost always returning skaters. Most "adult starters" aren't going to be able to win the championship events.

But for the regular articles they publish from time to time, they do seem to fall into 2 categories: (1) The poor brave adult skater overcoming some horrific personal tragedy to find his/her way back to the ice, or (2) returning skaters.

I don't think there's anything wrong with those kinds of stories, but I agree that they don't paint a complete picture of adult skating. Personally, I'm tired of both kinds of stories. I think they've been done to death. I happen to think that adult skating is beginning to overemphasize the returning skaters, and I see this reflected in both kinds of coverage in Skating magazine. I'd like to see more stories about the 35 year old bronze level skater who laced up for the first time at the age of 30. So in a sense, I sort of agree with the original poster in general, but not specifically about the AN coverage.

[pairman2]

I agree with the drift that the sk8 mag is a very limited, highly produced snapshot based on very limited resources. I don't look to the mag to do anything totally comprehensive for adult skaters...it's just not in the scope of things.

I do think it would be best to vent our energy into our own media. For example, most of us have choosen to chat, primarily, on skatingforums as opposed to the USFSA site. Why is that? Carry this over to other media. For insights, team exposure, news coverage, annoucements of adult pairs, adultpairskating.com was created.

I think it would be great to see adultdance.com adultprebronze.com etc and everyother conceivable dot-whatever in order to get our story out there. After all, www is the media of choice for most of us and a large fraction of adult skaters work in the industry to begin with. Glossy's are just a little bit of icing on the cake.

As far as getting the adult 'message' out there to the rest of the skating community, that's just another marketing puzzle that we should take on as a happy challenge. I'm convinced that it is doable.

[mdvask8r]

I do think it would be best to vent our energy into our own media. For example, most of us have choosen to chat, primarily, on skatingforums as opposed to the USFSA site. Why is that?
Well, for one thing, this board is much faster & more user-friendly.

[Hannahclear]

Well, my reaction to reading that was, that's all? After saying that, they couldn't even mention the names of the gold medalists in silver or bronze? It wasn't a bad article, but I was a little disappointed, too. {shrug}

In all the different age categories?

The names were in there, in the results section.

[WeirFan06]

I know that there is a adult skating e-magazine called "32 Degrees" and that there was a newsletter/magazine years ago that was put together by either someone on the Adult Skating Committee or with very close ties to the committee. Maybe this is a idea- to resurrect that publication.


That magazine was put out by this guy Thom from San Francisco... I don't think he's on the committee. I think he just did it for fun. He was actually just saying something about it the other week, and I was only half listening, but I think he said he stopped doing it because much of his time these days is spent working on putting together these shows and competitions and stuff. He also used to put out an actual published version of it too, but that might have gotten a little expensive. ... Like I said, I was only half listening...

Anyway, if you're really interested there might still be something about it on his website. It's www.skateout.org

Oh... I just read your post more carefully.... you were talking about two different publications. Maybe he still has the e-magazine just not the published one. Sorry for the confusing post. I shouldn't write when I first wake up! :roll:

[Terri C]

That magazine was put out by this guy Thom from San Francisco... I don't think he's on the committee. I think he just did it for fun. He was actually just saying something about it the other week, and I was only half listening, but I think he said he stopped doing it because much of his time these days is spent working on putting together these shows and competitions and stuff. He also used to put out an actual published version of it too, but that might have gotten a little expensive. ... Like I said, I was only half listening...

Anyway, if you're really interested there might still be something about it on his website. It's www.skateout.org

I know that Thom is behind 32 Degrees, but there was another Adult Skating e-magazine that was out before that put together and published by someone in Massachuttes. It had the name "Adult Edge" or something like that.

[SK8RX]

Once upon a time there was a Adult Newsletter called " Adult Insights". Unfortunately, the funding for that ended, and subsequently someone from Colonial Figure Skating Club in MA was doing it for a while, primarily I seem to recall as a webzine. Unfortunately several years ago it disappeared for good.

[Terri C]

Once upon a time there was a Adult Newsletter called " Adult Insights". Unfortunately, the funding for that ended, and subsequently someone from Colonial Figure Skating Club in MA was doing it for a while, primarily I seem to recall as a webzine. Unfortunately several years ago it disappeared for good.

Ah- ha that's what it was!! I only got to read it once, before it vanished. :cry:
SK8RX is the winner of tonight's Adult Skating Trivia contest!! :P

[sk8pics]

In all the different age categories?

The names were in there, in the results section.

I meant in the article itself. I mean, the author made those comments about feeling skating in your heart when you watch the newcomers, and then couldn't mention even one of the medalists in the lower levels? I know, I know, then people would complain that someone else wasn't mentioned. {shrug} I just was expecting more after reading that paragraph about lower levels.

[Hannahclear]

I know, I know, then people would complain that someone else wasn't mentioned. {shrug}

Exactly. You can never please everyone.

Honestly, the USFSA does not exist to prop up the self esteem of adult skaters. If you want to make the magazine, get through gold and go to Championship Gold or even Masters. Otherwise, you'll have to be content with seeing your name printed in the magazine.

[sk8pics]

Exactly. You can never please everyone.

Honestly, the USFSA does not exist to prop up the self esteem of adult skaters. If you want to make the magazine, get through gold and go to Championship Gold or even Masters. Otherwise, you'll have to be content with seeing your name printed in the magazine.

Okay, I never said that the USFSA exists to prop up the self esteem of adult skaters. I just gave my reaction to the article. I did NOT say it was a bad article. I did NOT say it was horrible or anything like that. I did NOT say I wanted to make the magazine. I'm entitled to my opinion, same as you and as everyone else.

[Terri C]

A few issues back, in Skating magazine, there was a letter to the editor concerning lack of adult skating coverage.
As I look at my current issue of Skating, there is a Kids Q&A with Johnny (only kids can participate), Ask Mr. Edge (we can learn from that one), Kidz Spotlight, Axel Annie, etc.
Basically Skating magazine caters to the kids... not to the adults.

[Hannahclear]

Okay, I never said that the USFSA exists to prop up the self esteem of adult skaters. I just gave my reaction to the article. I did NOT say it was a bad article. I did NOT say it was horrible or anything like that. I did NOT say I wanted to make the magazine. I'm entitled to my opinion, same as you and as everyone else.

Didn't say I was talking to you. :halo:

But there have been a few people on this thread, not you in particular, who seem to feel very insulted by the article (see first post) and I was pointing out why I didn't think that was a valid reaction.

[manleywoman]

Basically Skating magazine caters to the kids... not to the adults.
Exactly. The VAST majority of their readership is under 15 years old. I'm psyched we even get a consistant spot in the mag at all.

[sk8pics]

Sorry, Hannahclear. You quoted me and that's why I reacted in that way. :halo:

[skateflo]

Think back to the USFS Business plan.....they are really focused on keeping skaters, from the kids, synchro, collegiate, and featuring adults who are returning (and those who now participate in international adult event$) When I got my issue, I scanned the article, saw only Championship Masters skaters and put it aside...nothing for those of us who started as adults. They are a business and making business decisions.

We have had many discussions over the returning versus the new adult skater and I don't want to start another one. I'm happy for those that are getting the USFS press - they earned it.

Printed newsletters, magazines, etc. especially for adult skaters is a hugely expensive undertaking and the market is just too small to make it worthwhile. As others have said, many mags have come and gone over the past 20 years. I remember how Alice Berman hung on for 10 years with Skater's Edge (fabulous and I have all the issues) but the subscription numbers never added up to support the publication - people would rather photocopy one issue and pass it around rather than support the publisher with a subscription.

I seriously doubt any one will come up with a viable printed format. Even web sites come and go in spite of best intentions for lack of financial support.

This particular forum has the best adult messages (and the most active) of any site on the web. If it had to charge an annual fee, how many of you would contribute???

[jazzpants]

This particular forum has the best adult messages (and the most active) of any site on the web. If it had to charge an annual fee, how many of you would contribute???One word: F$World! :twisted: (Let's see how many of your guys remember THAT board?) :P

Actually, FSUniverse does charge for subscription for extra features to use and the price isn't bad. Of course, if I could get the same features on another board for free, why spend it on the board that you have to pay for that feature? ;)

Those of you that are complaining about the coverage of adult skaters, seriously...go WRITE an acticle to be submitted to Skating Magazine!!! See what happens!!! Do the work of the photography and all... and submit the article! The people at Skating Magazine aren't mind readers and would appreciate you putting in the work for them.

[kitkat]

For those complaining that only skaters with a huge tragedy in their lives get featured: Well, let me just say that I learned the hard way that at some point almost everyone will experience tragedy. And from personal experience, I know that once you have been thrown into the depths of despair it is hard enough to just breathe or just get out of bed much less work hard on a hobby such as skating. I will assume those who made such comments have not exerienced tragedy...yet.

[skaternum]

I will assume those who made such comments have not exerienced tragedy...yet.
How presumptuous! Having experienced personal tragedy doesn't mean I want a steady diet of articles about personal tragedy. :roll:

[dcden]

Those of you that are complaining about the coverage of adult skaters, seriously...go WRITE an acticle to be submitted to Skating Magazine!!! See what happens!!! Do the work of the photography and all... and submit the article! The people at Skating Magazine aren't mind readers and would appreciate you putting in the work for them.
I think this suggestion (also brought up by Debbie S) is pretty much what it comes down to. Provide some new content and perhaps you'll see it in the magazine. I'm sure there are great stories out there, but to be honest, unless they're brought to everyone's attention, the focus will by default go to the Championship skaters or those going through life-altering experiences. But that doesn't mean there can't also be articles about a group of lunchtime-session or coffee-session skaters, or about a large adult event like Peach or NYI.

[jazzpants]

But that doesn't mean there can't also be articles about a group of lunchtime-session or coffee-session skaters...Hmmm... I wonder how many adults are willing to admit that they're playing hooky from their jobs? :P :twisted: (Just kidding! It's a great idea actually. I get permission from my boss to skate lunchtime sessions. And most of the coffee club sessions are retired adults. Mmmmmmm.... DONUTS!!! :yum: )

[flo]

We've brought this up to Skating and Laura Fawcett each year after nats and get the same reply.

Basically if you want coverage of Nats, write it yourself. Anyone reading the articles and not familiar with AN will get a very different and skewed picture of the event. It's never really covered the true "adult" events.
While it's great that we are encouraged to contribute, the fact is, it that there is already someone writing the article, and as such the article should accurately reflect the event. I believe the requests/reminders of representative coverage and the original goal of AN should be presented to the magazine editor and USFSA in general before the event, rather than our disgust after.
So for 2007 - when each person sends in their application, sent in your comments.

[jazzpants]

While it's great that we are encouraged to contribute, the fact is, it that there is already someone writing the article, and as such the article should accurately reflect the event. I believe the requests/reminders of representative coverage and the original goal of AN should be presented to the magazine editor and USFSA in general before the event, rather than our disgust after.
So for 2007 - when each person sends in their application, sent in your comments.I agree with your point about AN, but I suspect that part of Jennifer28's frustration is that the lower level skaters are rarely, if ever highlighted (they are mentioned briefly, but that's it!!!) in the magazines (and I don't mean just Adult Nationals but in general.) This is why I suggested doing an article and send it in. If there is already another writer for the same story, they might be able to "team up" on the article or something.

The article that I think best sums up Adult Nationals (probably what Jennifer28 was looking for) was the one year where all the skaters at AN wrote their own unique story about what they felt was the highlight of being at AN. The reason I say that is that this came from a good sample of all the skaters, from a lady in the Championship ranks to a newly minted Bronze level skater. (IIRC, I think our own Mel On Ice 8-), was newly minted Bronze FS skater at the time.)

[skateflo]

As we look at this even further, what is the goal of the USFS and AN? another line of thought (and article basis) is to write about how adults came to getting on the ice in the first place and why they have stuck with it. Skating magazine is a membership publication so the only readers are the kids and their parents or perhaps other close adult relatives/friends. So getting the word out for adults to give skating a try is limited already.

It comes back to (and many articles have been written over the years) getting articles in your local newspapers....and that is tough!

Adult skaters are a real minority and in many rinks there are only a few. Adults don't have major training centers and locally adults are more tolerated than truly welcomed to be the best possible. Yes, I know there are exceptions! We still have a long way to go to be understood, accepted, and encouraged by local coaches and judges.

For those that attended the first few ANs, the atmosphere was much different than today - and that has been discussed here over the years as well. I sometimes wonder if the USFS would like non-competing or lower level skaters to go to ISI and not bother with USFS.....

I only wish someone from the adult committee would take the time to read the many, many articles about adult skaters that appeared in Skating magazine prior to the 1961 crash - they were fabulous! (I have all issues since day 1 except a few from 1942/43.) It was a time when the USFS lived up to its mission statement.......IMHO....maybe I'll start photocopying them and put them in my own scrapbook and send a copy to Laura.....

Please understand my rant as I have been off the ice for 7 months with back problems.......and I miss my skating very much! I also remember being the only adult with 100 kids in a LTS program - I outlasted many of them!

[flo]

The original goal of AN, (as stated by Rhea Schwartz in 1995) was to provide a competition venue for skaters who learned to skate as adults, and to also have a place for skaters returning to the sport.
I have the exact quote somewhere that I dug up for an article I had in Adult Insight's

[Hannahclear]

My coach told me recently that the part of skating that is still expanding in terms of numbers is synchro and adult.

How do you feel you are treated as an adult at the rink? I can honestly say I've never had any issues.

[flo]

I'm usually treated very well. We have a great group of adults and kids!

[Terri C]

While I haven't had any problems as a adult skater at my rink, I thought I'd throw out something that occured to me on the way home.
When you logon to the "Members Only" section of the USFS website, there is a survey that asks you to describe what your primary activity is in skating. Under the definition of "Adult Skater" the description is given of a adult skater being one who competes in Adult Qualifying Competitions.
If that is inaccurate, then maybe the Adult Skating Committee needs to take action on this description.

[NCSkater02]

Adult skaters are a real minority and in many rinks there are only a few.

I also remember being the only adult with 100 kids in a LTS program - I outlasted many of them!

I am the only adult at my rink. There are a couple of older teenagers--19-20--but other than that, it's old, slow me and the kids.

I also have outlasted most of the kids that started with me 4+ years ago.

[Skate@Delaware]

I am one of the few adults at my rink at my level. The other adults are either above my level and coach or teach or are begining skaters.

I practically live at the rink from September through mid-April. Because I am there so much, the skating director does treat me well (she is the advisor for the club). Our rink is mainly geared to recreational skaters first, then hockey, then competitive figure skaters third.