speed=wobbly stroking

[CFP]

hello.. i'm looking for insight from others who've had this problem.
now that i care about 'technique'.. not just ability, i've been trying to improve my speed and have noticed that when i stroke at a faster pace, the gliding foot wobbles and forces to me put the pushing foot down right away.
my forward crossovers [ but not the backcrossovers] have the same problem. the faster i go, the more i feel i'm about to do a 'wheelie'!:lol:
anyone else struggle with this?

[lovepairs]

Some may disagree with this, but it works for me, and I got it from an Olympic Silver medalist, and World Champion in Dance (Russian.) Never come up from a bent knee--keep pushing down into the ice. Keep pushing down into the ice, down, down, down, until you think you can't go down anymore, then go down some more. Never come up to a strait skating knee. Always keep knees (and ankles) as soft and bent as possible.

[Sk8pdx]

On forward stroking, make sure you are not leaning forward too much at the waist. Also try a more deliberate knee bend as if you are over exaggerating it. Bend your ankles too to get down lower on your skating leg. (I always think I am lower, but videos show me that I couldn't be more upgright. As i watch them, I say to myself, G! I need to bend my knees more! :) ) I would just say bend your knees more but I hear it so much that it is over used and loses its effectiveness.

[CFP]

thanks guys,,, you both say the same thing..deeper bend. :lol:
i've had someone tape me skating,, and yes,, i stand up right away. do you stay in such a position -bent- even when prepping for footwork?
one of my friends [ russiet ] helped me yesterday learn a 'speedskaters' stance,,,,,eeeek! hard to stay crunched over like that! i thought figure skaters were to project a more elegant posture...:lol:

[doubletoe]

Don't do a speedskater stance unless you plan to get rid of your toepicks! LOL!
Keep your butt low, your lower back arched (shoulders back), and your chest pushed out over the knee of your skating leg, which should be lined up over the toe of your skating foot. You'll notice that in order to achieve that position, you really need to stay low to the ice, i.e., deeply bent knees, with feet wide apart except when actually crossing over. Isn't it depressing hwo we always think we're bending our knees more than we are?!

[flippet]

thanks guys,,, you both say the same thing..deeper bend. :lol:
i've had someone tape me skating,, and yes,, i stand up right away.
When you say you 'stand up', do you mean that you bend for the stroke, then stand up for the glide---on every stroke? If so.....


....no, no, no, no, no. :lol: You want to bend your knees, essentially 'sit' into the stroking, but be sure not to break at the waist--your back should be straight (but not vertical--the back is still at an angle). Basically, the only points your body should bend are at the ankle, the knees, and the hips--never the waist, and everything else should be straight. Sit deeply into it, and STAY THERE!! :D Seriously, the upper body should not move, the only movement going on should be in the legs (and naturally swinging arms, of course, unless you have them tucked behind you as speedskaters do). The upper body should be on a straight trajectory, i.e. ---------, NOT ~~~~~~~~~. Got it? :D :lol:

[pairman2]

Definitely YES to all the above but I'd like to add 2 other things to check for.

First. Are your skates fitted right? Do you have extra room at the toe, extra width or do they have deep creases at the sides?

Second, it's also about having you body mass aligned directly over top or into your skate edge whether that is an inside, outside edge or a flat.

If you take 2 or 3 strong strokes and glide the whole length of the rink on one foot, you should be able to feel if it's one or both of these. You can do it on a locked knee, bent knee, crouched over or stick straight...if you are over your skate, it should not wobble.

I occaisinanally have the problem myself in the first part of my warm up before I have adjusted to the feel of my skate for that day or I have not yet forced myself into my best posture.

[doubletoe]

True, if all of the above don't fix it, check your equipment. Make sure your blades are sharpened at least every 36 hours of skating and make sure they are aligned correctly on the bottom of your boots (something you won't be able to tell by looking at them, only by trying to glide straight on each foot, with a coach's trained eye watching from behind).

[CFP]

Flippet,,, yes,, that's what i do; bend to push--stand to glide. i also do this on crossovers........gee, wonder if that's why i can't hold my edge!:lol:

about the skates..i've had my go-arounds!! i have ridicuously high arches [ only the ball and heel show on imprints],,, i wear a 4 aa.... so i'm always building or creating my own insoles,, all skates are so thick through the arch!! i just bought a new pair [ jackson] last season. they're a little tighter,, but could be more snug.

now about keeping my weight square over my boot. i was taught to really twist yourself in whatever direction you're headed... if i stay square, especially on forward crossovers,, i end up going off circle in the other direction.

[froggy]

i diddo what others have mentioned about the bending at the knees ill just add the following.

for crossovers are you getting the under push, it's a hard one but one that gives power to the crossover, think not about how many crossovers you do and pushes you do, its the quality of the push at take off.

when forward stroking.. again deepen the knee bend and my coach has told me to push off with your ankle slightly falling in using the whole blade (no toe pushing!), after pushing off hold onto your edge of your skating leg gradually straigten the knee and hold hold keeping your upper body erect, chin up, back straight and free leg pointed, feel your whole body holding even your fingertips :o) maintaing that control should help avoid the wobbles you get.

its good your concerned about your stroking, they say that you can tell an experienced figure skater from others just by their stroking. a good skater can make "simple" stroking along the rink look elegant and powerful.

good luck!!

[froggy]

now about keeping my weight square over my boot. i was taught to really twist yourself in whatever direction you're headed... if i stay square, especially on forward crossovers,, i end up going off circle in the other direction.[/QUOT


you want to keep/commit your weight over the skating leg and its edge. having your weight unevenly distributed between your legs will make you wobbly. im not sure if you are working on consecutive edge MITF but in those moves you learn how to control your edges and what it means to keep your weight to one side and then gradually bring it to the other leg.

Ie: in crossovers think about each movement with its edge and to help keep it fluid think of yourself squeezing toothpaste or pouring honey

ccw.. push off right, left outside, right inside, under push, etc..

[flippet]

now about keeping my weight square over my boot. i was taught to really twist yourself in whatever direction you're headed... if i stay square, especially on forward crossovers,, i end up going off circle in the other direction.

I started my reply on another computer, and forgot about it! Oops. :oops:

Anyway, what I wanted to say is this: you don't keep your torso 'square', we're talking about your weight. A better term to use is 'balance point', maybe, or 'center of gravity'.

Think of a plumb line that's exactly vertical from the edge of your skating blade where it's biting into the ice, up to the ceiling. Your weight distribution should be equal on either side of it.

Actually, for skating, that's not precisely true. There's physics involved as well, and I'm no expert, and can't explain it in physics terms. For instance, for a spread eagle--you could drop a plumb line down to the skate blade, and obviously most of the skater's weight will be on one side of that line--to the inside of the circle. But the natural effects of gravity are offset by the velocity of speed, and the amount of pressure that the blade is putting on the ice. Basically, the faster you go, the more pressure is put against the ice (at an angle), and the gravitational pull (I'm sure that term isn't quite right...) is what helps hold you up. Like on a merry-go-round...the faster it goes, the harder you're pulled to the edge.




Okay, all you science majors. I'm sure I've mangled that explanation in sixteen different ways. Please, please correct me and set it straight!!!:giveup:

[froggy]

is putting on the ice. Basically, the faster you go, the more pressure is put against the ice (at an angle), and the gravitational pull (I'm sure that term isn't quite right...) is what helps hold you up. Like on a merry-go-round...the faster it goes, the harder you're pulled to the edge.

Okay, all you science majors. I'm sure I've mangled that explanation in sixteen different ways. Please, please correct me and set it straight!!!


mmmm i love science, now im doing my brain gymnastics, ..
you go faster the more pressure you put on the ice since for every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction, additionally lucky us who skate on ice, we have slippery ice with reduced friction that makes us go much faster than say those who skate on concrete (roller, inline skating). (it takes much more effort to skate/stroke on ice that is not smoothed out, think of the ice at the end of a session). the push is at an angle since for just about everything in skating we're not skating linear or flat but on an edge.

im not quite sure what you mean by the gravitational pull pulling you up, if anything that is what brings you back to earth when you land or fall. I believe what helps pull us up is our own strength, why else do many skaters especially the once doing high level jumps will seriously work on core streangth and especially plyometrics which helps the muscles output an explosive amount of energy. also in skating we use our core all the time to hold us up, you cant skate effectively if your a (physically) wimpy noodle, having good posture is an asset.

the merry go round you are referring to. i think what you are thinking about is centralfugle (spelling?) force, (centrifuge used to break up blood), in a spin that is part of what is happening, leg is out and as you pull in you create a force (centrifugle) that creates the speed of a blur/scratch spin.

skating is a real science and art! hope this helped!!

[Mrs Redboots]

I was watching one of the teachers at our rink helping a beginner with their first forwards crossovers. The skater had found his balance, and could glide on one foot on more or less of an inside edge. So she was requiring him, after he'd crossed his outside foot over, to pick up his inside foot and hold it in the crossed position. He was making two movements of it - the push, followed by crossing the leg under.

It was ugly, but I'm sure it gave him the feeling of where his legs needed to be, and, of course, when he had his foot in the crossed position, his weight was about right, too.

[doubletoe]

Back to the original question, if you are talking about this happening on crossovers (rather than straight stroking),there's something else you should pay attention to. In addition to bending your knees deeply, you also need to lean your upper body slightly outside the circle to counter-balance the lean of your lower body. The faster you're going, the more important this is. For example, if you are doing forward CCW crossovers (right foot over left), you need to lean your torso slightly to the right to keep enough weight on the outside foot instead of falling into the circle.

[CFP]

thanks for all this great advice!:)
actually, what made me write this question was a 'bad' skate last week on my picskates [ inlines with figure boot].... but i have this problem on ice as well.
last week, i went out onto fresh pavement, as opposed to the crappy stuff i usually skate on. well,, i loved the feel of it,,so i tried to stroke fast to pick up speed and you'd think i was skating on a railroad bed i was wobbling so much!:frus: i WAS skating in a straight line. for some reason, i'm alot more confident on crossovers when on pavement.
on ice,, my crossovers are wobbly AND scratchy. it's second nature to skate with my toes pointed whenever they're not touching the ice,, so during that underpush,,the pick is the last to leave the ice.---still working on that!!
russiet taped me doing crossovers and sure enough,, the under foot push is very shallow and i seem to lift it right up into a low arabesque. THAT really throws me out of alignment.
if i weren't 'proud',, i'd put the little clip up here,,, you'd all get a good laugh,,,but you could see what i'm talking about..:lol: :lol:

[Skate@Delaware]

Could you put a clip up of you on the ice "wobbling" so we'd see it and be able to understand a bit more what you mean? Understand also, that skating on picskates is different than ice skates; i have them and they are very different. The height of the wheels is different than the height of the blade off the ice, the weight, the size, etc. are all different, even though they use the same type of boots.

[russiet]

You have great back c.o. and I think you'll do great going forward, but the need to practice everytime you skate. That's what will do it.

I know you ski, so you understand how you can find the sweet spot when you carve a turn. Same holds true on the ice. I think you need to find the right body position to make it work on skates.

Every time you learn a little bit better technique,time slows down. The mechanics become more and more obvious and easier to make minor adjustments.

Keep at it. I know you'll do great!:P

[CFP]

ok then, you're my 'coach' for the rest of the summer. make me skate crossovers every day!!

actually,, i think i discovered something tonight. while doing crossovers [ on my pics ] my underfoot dropped down a little--the ankle towards the ground--- and THAT helped keep that leg facing outward, not lifting to the rear as it usually does!! i'm a happy gal!!:P :)
however,, is this the correct way or is it a lazy foot?
normally, my leg is tight,,ankle in line with outside hip,,,, could that be why my stroking foot pushes backward, not outward?
i also did alot of pumping-on-the-circle. no crossovers,, just used it as a way to get low. now if i can stop breaking at the waist,:frus: i think i should cut a decent profile.:)
i asked russiet to film me monday,,if it's instructive,, i'll put it up. you'll all feel so much better about YOUR skating after you witness mine..:lol: :lol:

s.delaware---what do you skate on--[pavement-concrete...ect?] what type of things can you do on them?

[Skate@Delaware]

I used them last summer and I was skating on pavement, and was doing stroking, crossovers, and 3-turns. Now my picskates are way too big and don't fit at all. I haven't used them at all this summer.