Lutz rotation

[Casey]

Okay, the darn lutz is really frustrating me right now.

I landed one great, clean lutz, last fall. Prior and after that, I've only managed ones with cheated entries (flutzes), or end up falling (on my hip), or do half-lutzes.

I don't understand it because I absulutely love the feeling of the lutz entry and it *feels* like it shouldn't be that hard, but I'm having the hardest time getting the rotation once I'm in the air.

Today I tried a couple with a lot of speed, and got PLENTY of height and air (more than any other jumps), but after a half rotation, I just, erm...stop...somehow, and land them as half-lutzes (of course, after landing the first thing I do is a quick 3-turn on the ice to have a more comfortable position that a full lutz would provide (*sigh*)).

Any advice on how to attain more revolution in the air? I can get more height on this jump than flips or any other jumps, but am screwing something up and can't for the life of me figure out myself what it is that's going wrong. Sorry for the ranting... ;)

[lovepairs]

Hi Casey,

It's not about the rotation in the air. Forget about the rotation in the air (thinking about this will hang it up.) If you have the proper entrance technique the rotation in the air is automatic and a result of a proper entry. This is a hard one to explain. I'll give it a try. Actually, I'm going to try it by telling you what not to do, first:

Don't let your upper body drop at the waist when you are going into it.
Try not to slam your toe pick into the ice when taking off. Keep the pick leg as low to the ice as possible (having the upper body "up" will help this.) Instead of making "ice sculpture" that is picking/hammering away at the ice with your take off pick, try picturing a sling shot, or rubber band in your mind. In other words, you are more or less planting that toe (like a stretched rubber band) and pulling your skating leg/foot back into it. Try to go into the set up on a bent soft knee with your upper body up (don't look down at the ice.)

When taking off, do not loose your left shoulder, or left hip into the rotation. This is hard to explain, but do not lead into the rotation with your left shoulder (the feeling is that you have to inorder to make the rotation happen, but this is the "devil" whispering in your ear!) Fight this feeling and try not to "loose" your left shoulder, or some people will say "don't open up." This is complicated, because this left shoulder leads you into the jump, meaning that it goes a split second before everything else, but WITHOUT LOOSING THE SHOULDER . Shoulder and hips stay connected.

As you are jumping up, do not swing your right arm around like an "o" shape. Rather scoop it up to meet your left arm, which you are not LOOSING either, as if you where scooping it up right along side your body.

Okay, someone else is going to have to get on this thread and help me out here, because it is so hard to explain. This jump has a lot of nuances to it. But, surfice it to say, that once you have it, you might loose it for a while and then get it back, again. For me this jump was my first jump that came and went, and it nearly flipped me out. I had it and then lost it for about 8 months, then when I got it back it was much stronger.

Hope this helps a little! :P

[cutiesk8r43]

i am always having trouble with my lutz. what my coach told me was to put your arm that is in front of you over your belly button. this does help you from dropping you shoulder.

[WhisperSung]

I feel your pain a bit. I'm working on double lutzes and I can do a picture perfect one and a half lutz, but the extra half rotation kills me.

All the things the above poster said I completely agree with. You don't just take off as soon as your pick is in the ice. There's a gradual drawing together that happens. My coach always says it's an "Up and over" feeling. Your jump, from take-off to landing, should looks like a rolling hill, if that makes any sense (it's easier to explain with hand motions!).

A bit thing for me, too, was not keeping my left arm out in front of me. Right before take-off, i would swing it further to the left sort of winding up for the jump. Doesn't work that way.

And then the last thing I've been told is on the last half of the rotation I actually reach for the ground. Try to hold in your arms until after your landing foot connects with the ice. If you open your arms out too soon, the rotation slows prematurely and you instinctively start reaching for the ground.

Hope that made some sense and translates from a double back into a single. I wish I could remember the explanations I got for landing my single jumps, but I can't. I learned them when I was a kid. I remember working on the axel (since I bruised a rib and ended up in the hospital, heh), but all the other singles are blurry for me.

[lovepairs]

A bit thing for me, too, was not keeping my left arm out in front of me. Right before take-off, i would swing it further to the left sort of winding up for the jump. Doesn't work that way.

Thanks Wispersung, this is exactly what I was trying to say: There is a "counter-intuitive" sensation that happens on the take off--you think that if you throw your left arm and shoulder in the direction of the rotation that you are helping the rotation out, but the exact opposite is true. This is what I meant by not "loosing" your left shoulder into the rotation. In this instance, if you do the opposite of what you feel like you should be doing then you'll be in great shape.

Don't you find that so much of skating is "counter-intuitive?" :roll: :frus:

[mikawendy]

Okay, the darn lutz is really frustrating me right now.

I landed one great, clean lutz, last fall. Prior and after that, I've only managed ones with cheated entries (flutzes), or end up falling (on my hip), or do half-lutzes.

I don't understand it because I absulutely love the feeling of the lutz entry and it *feels* like it shouldn't be that hard, but I'm having the hardest time getting the rotation once I'm in the air.

Casey, I feel your pain, too! I've been working on this one for a while, and I think I accidentally landed one when I was starting to work on this, but I wasn't able to reproduce it (and it was so unexpected that I wasn't sure whether it was a clean takeoff or a flutz). I've been able to do 1/2 lutz and sometimes a little more, but not 1 full rotation.

My problem is that I'm not transferring my weight from the gliding BO foot to the picking foot. I have this problem in the flip sometimes, too.

Actually, see this thread: http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=20804 (especially doubletoe's advice in it) for some information about the placement and technique of the picking foot that is relevant in 1/2 flip, flip, 1/2 lutz, and lutz. I found this to be very helpful with my flip--I have yet to transfer the feeling to my lutz yet, though!

[beachbabe]

a lot of people make the mistake of kicking really hard into the ice but you really wanna extend your leg back low to the ice and with control. Basically, if your pick mark is piercing ther ice all the way to the floor..you know you're picking in too hard. And you dont jumpo right away because your other leg still has to move a little bit before takeoff. Also don't use your upper body to throw yourself in the air. If you hold the edge properly and pick in with control you wont need any extra help.

If you cant get the rotation perhaps you are not pulling in, or not crossing your legs at all. Work on getting the right body position off the ice.

[vesperholly]

Not only does the left shoulder need to be strongly checked in front, but make sure you are not pulling your right arm around too soon. (If you do, it can pull you onto a flutz and make you open up too soon by losing "pop" from holding the check.) Your right arm should mirror your picking leg. As you bring the leg down for the pick, your right arm should swing down - being slightly behind your hip when your pick goes in -and then up and in to your chest.

[Skate@Delaware]

Casey,
Do you have this on video for a critique?

[NickiT]

The lutz is my hardest jump. For me it's a head thing as much as anything else. If I'm confident I can do it. If I dither I end up on two feet. My lutz isn't perfect though. My coach says I'm definitely taking off on an outside edge even though I'm a bit straight in the lead up to it. However she says I don't jump quickly enough off the toe which seems to be a contradiction of what's being said on this thread, as to me I try to go soon after hitting the ice. I also have a problem with dropping my right shoulder on the take-off which causes me to leave a skid on the ice from the toe pick. However I've never had a problem with rotation.

Nicki

[WhisperSung]

Thanks Wispersung, this is exactly what I was trying to say: There is a "counter-intuitive" sensation that happens on the take off--you think that if you throw your left arm and shoulder in the direction of the rotation that you are helping the rotation out, but the exact opposite is true. This is what I meant by not "loosing" your left shoulder into the rotation. In this instance, if you do the opposite of what you feel like you should be doing then you'll be in great shape.

Don't you find that so much of skating is "counter-intuitive?" :roll: :frus:


No problem. I just remember becoming a human zamboni whenever I wound up my left arm too much. My coach has me doing lutz-double loops to get used to the counter-rotation feeling (I'm convinced that combination is harder than the actual double lutz, though!). For me, it really is about getting into the air and THEN rotating a split second later, not rotating when you're still on the ground. I'll get it one of these days. . .when I'm not too busy almost breaking my ankle on a double flip double toe like I did last Friday. :frus: Scariest thing I've had happen in a long time.

[lovepairs]

Casey,

Don't mean to hijack your thread, but I have to ask WhisperSung a question.

Whisper,

I have the lutz and now I'm (rather unsuccefully) trying to attach a loop to it (both single jumps.) Any suggestions? I have both jumps by themselves, but I can't seem to put them in a Lutz / Loop combination. Any tips?

Thanks,
Lovepairs

[Casey]

If you cant get the rotation perhaps you are not pulling in, or not crossing your legs at all. Work on getting the right body position off the ice.
Ahh wow, this is something I've been forgetting...I don't really cross my legs on any other jumps except a bit on the loop, and thinking back to my last several lutz attempts, my legs sure weren't crossed. I'll give that a try next week.

As for the other responses - I'm pretty good about not slamming the ice with the pick - and am constantly advising others the same, so I think I'm alright there. I'm not sure exactly what's happening with my shoulders...I go into it with my arms straight out, looking back over my right shoulder in the direction of my fingers, and then right when I pick, my hands come together in front of my chest and my head turns forward...I think this does cause my left shoulder to push back somewhat so maybe I should meet my hands more over to the right shoulder instead of the center of my chest?

Thanks for all the food for thought, I'll try to keep all of this in mind and pay attention to details next time I skate.

[Casey]

Casey,
Do you have this on video for a critique?
No, but I will try to film it.

[Casey]

Don't mean to hijack your thread, but I have to ask WhisperSung a question.
Doesn't bother me in the slightest! I'm a thread hijacker from way back! :twisted:

[mikawendy]

Casey, thanks for starting this thread. It inspired me to work on my lutz attempts today when I skated. There were only 2-4 other people on the ice, so there was plenty of room for me to just keep circling and trying again.

I had one attempt where I think I actually correctly transferred my weight to the picking foot. It was weird because there was a moment during which I felt like I was traveling backward in the air before I rotated. It wasn't a long time but it felt like a long time and was kinda scary. Most of my other attempts are getting good height and some are more than 1/2 rotated but not close to being fully rotated.

I have trouble paying attention to my arms in this jump. I know in my head what they're supposed to do, but when it comes time to jump, I think so much about the rotation of the torso and the picking foot and staying on the outside edge that I forget about my arms!!

[luna_skater]

My lutz tricks...

For my entry, I start from about center ice going backwards, curving around to the right (R over L x-overs). On a diagonal towards the corner, I sit on a shallow LBO edge, switch my arms, putting my left arm in front and right behind, till I'm ready to jump:

- Arms are crucial. Left arm must stay strongly in front and right arm strongly back.
- Look straight ahead. I used to have a habit of looking left and moving my left arm back. Keeping your head forward helps.
- I think of being on a flat instead of an outside edge, so I don't contort my body.
- Bend with the knee and ankle, not the waist.
- REACH back with your picking leg.
- KEEP YOUR UPPER BODY STILL!
- Pick in, slide left foot in, pull arms in (left still directly in front).

My keys are: arms, head, bend (knee). For whatever unknown reason, my lutzes are better than my flips, even though mentally I have less issues with the flip. I used to have problems not shifting my weight to my picking leg enough, and solved this by thinking of driving my left knee up. Good luck!!

[Evelina]

Thanks for starting this thread. I am currently working on my Lutz and its driving me a little crazy, but all the information has been helpful!

[flo]

Love lutzes. Something I was taught, but does wig out some folks, is that once I set my back outside edge, I look behind for small children bringing my right shoulder and arm back, (I think you're doing this part) and turn ONLY my head back to front, then jump when ready! Then when I toe in, it feels like a rubberband snapping and it's an easy rotation. Think of it as pointing to your landing spot with your right hand, and leaving it there.
Perhaps by keeping your head back you're losing a bit of the counter-rotation and benefit of the snap. If your head is forward and torso and arms counter rotated (by pointing to your landing spot), once you toe in, your torso will rotate to your head (center) and snap.

[iskatealot]

Ok this is my personal opinion here but from reading what you are all writing I think you are all thinking far too much about your jump. I know from experience with my axel and Double Salchow that if I THINK about what I am supposed to be doing I dont get anywhere. If you are constantly thinking "First make sure it isnt a flutz now hold this armup and bring this one in but not across but up to meet the other and now crossing my leg now I have to pull out!" It isnt easy to think all that in the split second your lutz will take. My suggestion is to work on it a little bit at a time. Consentrate on just the take off and when you are happy then concentrate just on your arms or concentrate just on crossing your legs. Haven't you all wondered why the skating commentators say "Skater is thinking through this program" as a bad thing?

[BatikatII]

Sorry this isn't for a Lutz but on the 'thinking too much ' theme I have to agree tht can happen. The most success I had with my flip was to stop thinking too hard about what I was doing and just concentrate on the 'idea' of what I wanted.

My new mantra for my flip is simply 'round and round and landing is easy' . Sounds daft but it works, presumably because it helps me to think about keeping the rotation going and a bit of positive thinking for the landing always helps!:D

[doubletoe]

I agree with everyone about the need to keep the left shoulder high and the shoulders counter rotated to the right until you leave the ice.

It's also important to make sure you stay on an outside edge (which is helped by rotating the shoulders to your right) and picking directly *behind* the skating foot so that you pick on the same circle as you are creating with your outside edge. However, to avoid flutzing, make that outside edge sort of a flat one, i.e., a diagonal. If you try to make it too much of an outside curve, you will over-compensate and swerve onto the inside edge when you reach back to pick.
The one thing nobody has mentioned yet is what happens with your hips between the moment you pick and the moment you leave the ice. This is where the rotation is initiated, so it's an important piece of the puzzle. You reach back and pick on the big circle you're creating with your outside edge and you pull yourself back on that circle until your feet are about to come together. As you pull yourself back, your upper body doesn't move; it's still completely backward with your shoulders checked to the right. BUT as your skating foot slides back and approaches your picking foot on the ice, your hips start to twist in the direction of rotation (i.e., to the left), counter-rotating against your torso, which is still checked to the right. This is what initiates that rotation and gets you backward over the right side in the air.

Lovepairs: For the lutz-loop, I find that it works best if you focus on getting yourself squared over your hips as soon as you're in the air on the lutz, in essence, focusing on the feeling of your lutz going straight up and down rather than backward across the ice. If you let the momentum take you backward too much in the air, you'll lean your torso forward on the landing and there's no way to do a loop from that position. Also, don't rush the loop takeoff. In order to get the edge you need for the loop takeoff, you need to really sit down on the lutz landing (i.e., get your right butt cheek down lower to the ice), square your body into the proper loop takeoff position, and then take off.

Iskatealot: Yes, there definitely comes a time when you have to stop thinking because you're just over-thinking out of fear. But first, you have to at least do enough thinking to make sure you understand the correct technique for the jump. Otherwise, you could be practicing the same mistake over and over without even realizing what it is.:roll:. Not only have I seen this happen, I've done it, LOL!

[lovepairs]

Lovepairs: For the lutz-loop, I find that it works best if you focus on getting yourself squared over your hips as soon as you're in the air on the lutz, in essence, focusing on the feeling of your lutz going straight up and down rather than backward across the ice. If you let the momentum take you backward too much in the air, you'll lean your torso forward on the landing and there's no way to do a loop from that position. Also, don't rush the loop takeoff. In order to get the edge you need for the loop takeoff, you need to really sit down on the lutz landing (i.e., get your right butt cheek down lower to the ice), square your body into the proper loop takeoff position, and then take off.

Thanks, Doubletoe...I'll try everything that you've suggested above on the ice tomorrow morning. Thanks so much! :bow:

About the thinking too much thing: I always "think" that this is part of the learning process of anything on the ice...that is...first you break it down into all the parts, try to focus on one part at a time, then maybe a few parts at a time. When you mastered a "part" you can forget about it and move onto concentrate on other parts...then one day you can forget about all of the parts, and the entire element just becomes a FEELING and you don't have to think anymore. I think letting go of "thinking" is a part of the process. I've heard people say "skate stupid" often, and I think this is what they mean. It is so magical after (often) years of practice when a jump, or a spin simply turns into a FEELING...then you can relax and feel the wind and the glide, and it was worth all of the falling, frustration, ect...:D Does anyone else process it this way:?:

[doubletoe]

Thanks, Doubletoe...I'll try everything that you've suggested above on the ice tomorrow morning. Thanks so much! :bow:

About the thinking too much thing: I always "think" that this is part of the learning process of anything on the ice...that is...first you break it down into all the parts, try to focus on one part at a time, then maybe a few parts at a time. When you mastered a "part" you can forget about it and move onto concentrate on other parts...then one day you can forget about all of the parts, and the entire element just becomes a FEELING and you don't have to think anymore. I think letting go of "thinking" is a part of the process. I've heard people say "skate stupid" often, and I think this is what they mean. It is so magical after (often) years of practice when a jump, or a spin simply turns into a FEELING...then you can relax and feel the wind and the glide, and it was worth all of the falling, frustration, ect...:D Does anyone else process it this way:?:

Yep! Exactly how I process new elements, too! First, it's all conscious, step-by-step, which body part is supposed to be doing what. As each part of the technique becomes automatic, it's one less thing I have to think about. Eventually, it's one or two cue words I have to have in my head as I do the element, and ultimately, I can just feel if my body position is right. My lutz has been at the "just feeling it" phase for quite awhile, and my axel is just now approaching that stage (something I have been looking forward to for a long time, LOL!)

[doubletoe]

I'm not sure exactly what's happening with my shoulders...I go into it with my arms straight out, looking back over my right shoulder in the direction of my fingers, and then right when I pick, my hands come together in front of my chest and my head turns forward...I think this does cause my left shoulder to push back somewhat so maybe I should meet my hands more over to the right shoulder instead of the center of my chest?


I had missed this before. Yes, it sounds like you are releasing your shoulders too soon. The hips start to twist in the direction of rotation as your skating foot pulls back to come together with the picking foot just before takeoff, but the shoulders stay checked to the right. As you pull yourself back, the right arm mirrors the right leg, pulling into the body as you pull back, but the right shoulder still stays checked back. You need to keep the shoulders counter-rotated to the right until you have picked, pulled back and are actually in the air (at which point they will automatically square with the hips). On takeoff, try bringing your hands together above the right hip bone and below the right breast, punching your right fist into your left palm as you do so. That should help you keep your shoulders checked and stay over your right side. Just make sure you keep your shoulders level. Twisting is lateral only; it never means dropping your shoulder.

[mikawendy]

About the thinking too much thing: I always "think" that this is part of the learning process of anything on the ice...that is...first you break it down into all the parts, try to focus on one part at a time, then maybe a few parts at a time. When you mastered a "part" you can forget about it and move onto concentrate on other parts...then one day you can forget about all of the parts, and the entire element just becomes a FEELING and you don't have to think anymore. I think letting go of "thinking" is a part of the process. I've heard people say "skate stupid" often, and I think this is what they mean. It is so magical after (often) years of practice when a jump, or a spin simply turns into a FEELING...then you can relax and feel the wind and the glide, and it was worth all of the falling, frustration, ect...:D Does anyone else process it this way:?:

That's how the learning process is with me, too, not just for jumps and spins, but also for moves. I have to break it down and work on different parts at a time, then put it all together. Then, when I test, it's happening without me having to think about 80 million things at once and it's more automatic....

[lovepairs]

Doubletoe,

It worked! Thank you soooo much for the Lutz / Loop tips. I still didn't land one, but I got really close by doing the "waiting" and "sitting down" part. However, the more I tried to concentrate on not traveling backwards, but rather "up" the more I started to loose my lutz. So, I stopped thinking about that part and concentrated on the other part you suggested, and I could feel the potential!

I'll keep trying...thank you, so much! :bow: