Is Oberstdorf the Adult Worlds?

[lovepairs]

Should the Adult Skating Community have a "Worlds" competition?

Should Oberstdorf be considered an Adult Worlds (if not on paper, then in theory?)

Should Oberstdorf be formally Sanctioned as an Adult Worlds?

Or, should Mountain Cup be sanctioned as an Adult Worlds?

Adults Skaters have Sectionals and Nationals, so why not a "World" competition, too?

[jp1andOnly]

umm..this is a pretty simple question to answer.

NO!

This competition will not always stay in Obersdorf BTW

Anyhow, back to the question. In order for it to be worlds, you'd have to have qualifying at Nationals. Many countries do not have Nationals. AND people would have to qualify to get to nationals, which doesn't happen (except for a couple of events in the US)

Eventually it MAY become a Worl;d comeptition, but not yet.

Should the Adult Skating Community have a "Worlds" competition?

Should Oberstdorf be considered an Adult Worlds (if not on paper, then in theory?)

Should Oberstdorf be formally Sanctioned as an Adult Worlds?

Or, should Mountain Cup be sanctioned as an Adult Worlds?

Adults Skaters have Sectionals and Nationals, so why not a "World" competition, too?

[skaternum]

No. O'dorf is NOT Adult Worlds.

Should there be an Adult Worlds? Heck yeah. Is it gonna happen anytime soon. Heck no. There can't BE an Adult Worlds until other countries hold genuine Adult Nationals.

I want to see the adult skating community continue its tradition of international OPEN (non-qualifying) competitions, so any skater who wants to can travel & compete internationally. I obviously do NOT want to see these events referred to as Adult Worlds.

[coskater64]

Having gone to the event twice, let me say, once again..... NO. It is not adult worlds. It is an excellent event, but there is no qualifying to get to it...hopefully one day when all the countries that send skaters to the event have aligned levels -- have qualifying national events -- of which, the top 3 or 4 skaters from each event (gold/masters) from each country could go and then it might be a "championship" event at the ISU international adult competition. There would still most likely be open events where anyone could enter at their correct level and compete for an OPEN title. (but who knows what they will do with the event)

Currently, you pick your own level, you do not have to qualify to enter, so for that reason it is NOT adult worlds. But for those who go it is an excellent opportunity to meet other skaters from around the world who share a similar passion.

On another note, Mountain Cup is not losing any steam, and it is also another excellent event to attend if you have the chance.

[Debbie S]

I'm hoping that this event gets spread around, geographically. Yes, having it in Europe seems to work out well as far as timing/coordination with Mountain Cup (people can make a whole trip out of both) and European skaters are more likely to attend, but I'm hoping that this event gets to North America (either U.S or Canada) at least once. Not everyone has the money to travel that far and I, for one, won't travel to Germany for personal reasons (but I might travel to the UK :) ).

[pairman2]

In answer to the question: should there be an adult worlds? Yes. Will adult worlds ever have any true equivelency with the regular 'worlds'? No. Is Obersdorf 'worlds'? It may as well be given the level of recognition that it receives from the ISU.

I see two ways of looking at it. If it was a full fledged qualifying event, that might add another layer of legitamacy to the concept of worlds, but take it to it's basic meaning. Worlds is where people from all over the world compete against one another. It's a wider pool of competition. Why should we detract from it otherwise?

What about 'real' worlds. The number of truely consistent competitive nations would fit on one or two hands. These nations have the advantage of a legacy of resources that allowed them to get into that position, A lot of nations will never have that. And yet we don't detract from real -'worlds' just because it represents only a hand full of nations.

In the past development of what is now Obersdorf, it was indeed widely circulated as 'adult-worlds' ...small 'w', but with all ernestness, including people at the heart of our own USFSA. This is enough for me.

I will never do quads, triples and I'll be lucky if I ever pull off double jumps. But I don't diminsh my own participation in our own AN or whatever future international event I may take part in because I can't do advanced jumps. I don't diminish AN because it is non-qualifying. Adults have 2 competitors: The field of people they compete against and their own aging self. What is now Group 5 deserves every bit as much credit or more for being there as does a Group 1 pulling off easy doubles or triples.

So Obersdorf , in it's most basic essense, IS worlds.

[TimDavidSkate]

The rink - is it the same rink where they had the 2000 Junior Worlds and other Junior Grand Prix competitions?

[daisies]

So Obersdorf , in it's most basic essense, IS worlds.
Using that definition, so is Mountain Cup.

[doubletoe]

What about 'real' worlds. The number of truely consistent competitive nations would fit on one or two hands. These nations have the advantage of a legacy of resources that allowed them to get into that position, A lot of nations will never have that. And yet we don't detract from real -'worlds' just because it represents only a hand full of nations.
. . . . .
So Obersdorf , in it's most basic essense, IS worlds.

"Worlds" implies that the "best in the world" or at least the "top skaters from each qualifying country" are present. That is far from being the case at Oberstdorf, which is generally a gathering of those few who have both the time and the money to participate. That's where it differs the most from standard track Worlds, where each country's skating association pays for its top skaters to go, so that they ARE all there and it is a true World Championship event. I realize that this could also be true of Adult Nationals to a lesser extent, since there are bound to be some skaters who can't afford to participate every year. Still, it's a whole different level of expense.

Let's say you won your event at AN, and someone who didn't even make the podium at your AN event went on to win the equivalent event at Oberstdorf with none of the top AN skaters present (including you). Would you feel a little offended if that person went around telling people, "I won Adult Worlds"? I think I would.

[skaternum]

So Obersdorf , in it's most basic essense, IS worlds.

Um, no. "Worlds" is short for "World Championship." Always has been; always will be. In the world of athletics, that means that the best in the world (as determined by some kind of screening, whether it's ranking or qualifying events or whatever) are competing for a title. No other World Championship is run as an open event, to my knowledge. Claiming that the ISU Adult event is a world championship is just pretending it's something it's not. Yes, it's international. Yes, it's ISU sanctioned. But it is NOT a World Championship.

Making this statement is not in any way diminishing the importance of adult skating or Adult Nationals or the value of the ISU Open comeptition. But don't pretend it's something it's not, no matter how much you want it to be.

It's a wonderful step, and it's great that the ISU has recognized Adult Skating. Maybe one day we'll get an Adult Worlds, but this ain't it.

[TimDavidSkate]

Um, no. "Worlds" is short for "World Championship." Always has been; always will be. In the world of athletics, that means that the best in the world (as determined by some kind of screening, whether it's ranking or qualifying events or whatever) are competing for a title. No other World Championship is run as an open event, to my knowledge. Claiming that the ISU Adult event is a world championship is just pretending it's something it's not. Yes, it's international. Yes, it's ISU sanctioned. But it is NOT a World Championship.

Making this statement is not in any way diminishing the importance of adult skating or Adult Nationals or the value of the ISU Open comeptition. But don't pretend it's something it's not, no matter how much you want it to be.

It's a wonderful step, and it's great that the ISU has recognized Adult Skating. Maybe one day we'll get an Adult Worlds, but this ain't it.


oooh girl youre saucy, you tell 'em miss thing :bow:

[coskater64]

Well, when you're right,---you're right.

[miss cleo]

The ISU World Championships you watch today began humbly 1882 as an international competition held in Vienna. There were only a handful of competitors(men only) who skated figures and the winner was Leopold Frey of Austria. Second was Edward Engelmann also from Austria and Axel Paulson from Norway was third.

A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step. Or should I say perhaps one stoke of the blade....

[lovepairs]

Let's say you won your event at AN, and someone who didn't even make the podium at your AN event went on to win the equivalent event at Oberstdorf with none of the top AN skaters present (including you). Would you feel a little offended if that person went around telling people, "I won Adult Worlds"? I think I would.

Not at all. Even in the elite ranks some people win their nationals and come in low in the Worlds, while other team mates make the podium. That's just the nature of competition--you win some and you loose some.

Basically, because Adult Skaters don't receive the same attention that elite skaters do, for a variety of understandable reasons, what we are left with is the freedom to create our own "context." In other words, an Adult Worlds, doesn't necessarily have to exactly mirror the "real worlds" in that it has to be qualifying. If Oberstdorf is considered the most important stage where Adult Skaters around the world come to compete against one another, then it's the Worlds. Since the USFSA and ISU has very little stake in assigning meaning for Adult Skaters then we have to do it for ourselves--what luxury and freedom. This is why I think that when this event was being born everyone was referring to it as the "Adult Worlds" at the 2004 AN at Lake Placid. There was a lot of excitement about assigning this definition to it, and the possibility that we can compete on a world stage with some importance assigned to it. Again, the talk was so much about this being a modified version of the real Worlds for Adults that there was also much talk about whether, or not the Mountain Cup competition would continue.

[icedancer2]

The ISU World Championships you watch today began humbly 1882 as an international competition held in Vienna. There were only a handful of competitors(men only) who skated figures and the winner was Leopold Frey of Austria. Second was Edward Engelmann also from Austria and Axel Paulson from Norway was third.

A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step. Or should I say perhaps one stoke of the blade....

I'm so glad you wrote this as I was just thinking about that myself -- like, how did Worlds start? Were there any qualifying competitions or did each country that wanted to participate just send some skaters -- or perhaps the skaters just went of their own volition -- we might never know, but it is something to ponder.

:bow:

[skatingpanda]

The rink - is it the same rink where they had the 2000 Junior Worlds and other Junior Grand Prix competitions?

Yes, it's the same rink. That's also where they have the yearly Nebelhorn Trophy.

[Mrs Redboots]

Not everyone has the money to travel that far and I, for one, won't travel to Germany for personal reasons (but I might travel to the UK :) ).If you can ever afford it, Debbie, do come to the Mountain Cup, which is in France, not Germany. And is a wonderful competition, as I'm sure many of the folk on here will tell you.

Actually, going back to Oberstdorf for a minute, for me, as a dancer, there are restrictions. I could skate up - but honestly, I'm not good enough to do a competitive 14-step and Foxtrot, and because these are the lowest-level ISU dances, I don't have a choice! Which is basically why I have yet to skate there, and don't see myself doing so in the immediate future.

[skatingpanda]

The ISU World Championships you watch today began humbly 1882 as an international competition held in Vienna. There were only a handful of competitors(men only) who skated figures and the winner was Leopold Frey of Austria. Second was Edward Engelmann also from Austria and Axel Paulson from Norway was third.

A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step. Or should I say perhaps one stoke of the blade....

I'm so glad you wrote this as I was just thinking about that myself -- like, how did Worlds start? Were there any qualifying competitions or did each country that wanted to participate just send some skaters -- or perhaps the skaters just went of their own volition -- we might never know, but it is something to ponder.

:bow:

Well looking at it strictly, it is still so that "each country just sends some skaters", since each federation has the right to send at least one skater to the World Championships, and the person they chose is not always the national champion (see the whole story about Miryam Manzano not being sent to the Olympics in spite of her Australian title).

In the end, it's all a matter of numbers: when the numbers are small, qualifying events don't make sense, while when numbers are large, you have to make some sort of selection. I guess that the day 150 skaters sign up for Bronze II at Oberstdorf, then they will introduce qualifying competitions in each country. Till then, it will stay an open competition (for now, in several categories there are not enough competitors to fill the podium!).

On a side note: the Swiss Championships are more or less an open competition: anybody that has passed their senior free test can sign up, and most years there are not enough of them to make any type of qualification round (this year there were 9 men and 16 ladies competing). So, if you are, say, a 50 years old male masters skater that just barely passed his senior free test, then next season nobody can prevent you from competing against Lambiel at Nationals.

[flo]

Debbie, you would really like Mountain Cup. I wanted to do one international event this season, and left it up to Rob, as he's been to both locations. We picked MC because it's a small village and preferred that over a large city, and it was an excellent choice.
Unless Oberstdorf (or wherever it may be) gets officially declared the international adult championships, I'll see it as another adult event, no more or less important to it's competitors, just different. For AN, the location is less important as far as going or not, as I've always gone, but for an international event, it's a vacation as well.

[doubletoe]

Not at all. Even in the elite ranks some people win their nationals and come in low in the Worlds, while other team mates make the podium. That's just the nature of competition--you win some and you loose some.

I have no issue with winning nationals and then coming in lower at Worlds, because in that scenario, the skaters are still all THERE and have a chance to compete against each other for the title. All is fair if the top skaters are all there (with the exception of one or two out due to injury, which happens at Worlds, too). But at Oberstdorf, maybe 10% of the top U.S. adult skaters are present, which is why it would be a misrepresentation to imply that the winner of an event at that competition has earned an "Adult World Champion" title.

[NoVa Sk8r]

All these international comps are lots of fun, and the camaraderie is unbeatable.

But I think it is worth noting that Mountain Cup is, in effect, a USFSA competition that is held in France. Oberstdorf is an ISU competition.

I asked if the ISU competition was going to be held in O'dorf next year; I was told that it might not. Also, some valuable info was discussed at the Sat. banquet. I can't seem to remember it all thanks to the Jello shots provided by the Canadian contingent! The technical specialist explained the features of a spin and how a lot of the spins were not called as expected. (For example, a lot of adults did the change of edge, but it was not counted, either because it was not enough on the changed edge or because the caller was looking for more than the 2 revs required by the ISU protocol. Here, I think you needed to do 3 or 4, depending on your level.)

Flo, I downloaded your pairs program--can't wait to watch it later!

[manleywoman]

I have no problem with the arguement that it is NOT Worlds since it's not as though people qualified to get there.

However, when you have a draw party and Cinquata himself is hanging medals around your neck, I can see some people want to refer to it as Worlds.

I don't see why it gets people angry or irritated to call it Worlds. But that's just me.

[daisies]

This is why I think that when this event was being born everyone was referring to it as the "Adult Worlds" at the 2004 AN at Lake Placid. There was a lot of excitement about assigning this definition to it, and the possibility that we can compete on a world stage with some importance assigned to it.
This is inaccurate. Rhea Schwartz was very clear when it was announced that it would not be a "Worlds." The big deal about O'Dorf was that it would be the first ISU-sanctioned all-adult competition, but not "Adult Worlds."

People can call it whatever they want. But in the world of skating, "Worlds" has one meaning and "International" has another. O'Dorf falls under the "International" category. Feel free to call it Worlds, but when you do, realize you might be confusing those who don't know any better. IMO, as adult skaters, we definitely should be spreading the word, but we should spread it accurately and not like the telephone game.

[/soapbox]

[doubletoe]

But in the world of skating, "Worlds" has one meaning and "International" has another. O'Dorf falls under the "International" category.
[/soapbox]

Exactly. Calling the Oberstdorf International Adult Competition "Adult Worlds" is the same as calling an ISU-sanctioned international competition like the Nebelhorn Trophy or Skate Israel "Worlds".

[lovepairs]

So, anyway, do you think the Adult Skating community should have a "Worlds?"

[jp1andOnly]

not at this point in time. Many nations don't even have adult competitions. In Canada, we just got an adult national 3 years ago. It's really only the US that has big numbers

So, anyway, do you think the Adult Skating community should have a "Worlds?"

[rlichtefeld]

Does anyone have statistics for Oberstdorf.

I know that the 2006 Mountain Cup had 130 skaters from 15 countries.

Was O'dorf bigger, about the same, or smaller. I know that looking at some of the results, there were quite a few Germans there, that I've not seen at the MC or Vana Tallinn Trophy in years past.

Rob

[TimDavidSkate]

I wish US would host an International competition :halo:

[pairman2]

How many countries would have to send how many people before we would feel like it was a real adult worlds? Is it about a particular sanction, numbers, a title or a feeling? IF the ISU declared a 'Worlds' for this coming year and participation was roughly the same numbers and make up as current international competitions, would it 'be' real or not?

[doubletoe]

That's a tough question, but as far as I'm concerned, you'll never get all of the top skaters from each country unless the member countries subsidize the travel expenses for their skaters to ensure that they can participate. I know I'm probably a little extreme, but for me, that's what it would take for it to be a legitimate World Championship. I realize none of our trips to Adult Nationals are subsidized, but it's just a whole different level of expense to travel overseas for a week.

[rlichtefeld]

I wish US would host an International competition :halo:

The Peach Classic (http://www.gafsc.org/peachclassic) is an international competiton. We've had skaters from England, Estonia, Canada, and Czech Republic.

The problem we have is that in Europe, most rinks are only open during hockey season. So, not many Europeans have ice before Sept 1.

That is why the Mountain Cup, Vana Tallinn Trophy and ISU International are all held at the end of May, beginning of June. The competitions are the last thing to be held on that ice until the next hockey season starts.

Rob

[Mel On Ice]

I thought Burgoyne was the North American Invitational, meaning skaters from Mexico and Canada could participate. That's international!

[rlichtefeld]

US Figure Skating and SkateCanada have an agreement that allows skaters to skate in the other's sanctioned events, except for qualifying events (Regionals, Sectionals, Nationals, AN, etc.)

Rob

I thought Burgoyne was the North American Invitational, meaning skaters from Mexico and Canada could participate. That's international!

[jazzpants]

How many countries would have to send how many people before we would feel like it was a real adult worlds? Is it about a particular sanction, numbers, a title or a feeling? IF the ISU declared a 'Worlds' for this coming year and participation was roughly the same numbers and make up as current international competitions, would it 'be' real or not?From what I'm reading from the others, it came off that it's not a matter of how many countries, but whether there is a "qualifying" round from all the different countries. Given that assumption, I don't think it's gonna happen any time soon... b/c there are a lot of other countries aren't as much into the Adult Skating thing as say the US is. That needs to happen in order to have an "Adult Worlds" competition.

[lovepairs]

How many countries would have to send how many people before we would feel like it was a real adult worlds? Is it about a particular sanction, numbers, a title or a feeling? IF the ISU declared a 'Worlds' for this coming year and participation was roughly the same numbers and make up as current international competitions, would it 'be' real or not?

Doubletoe, it doesn't have to be the top skaters from every country. We don't have to exactly mirror the elite structure to have something that is international and satisfying to everyone--a competition that we can call OUR "Worlds."

Hercules,

Here's what I think: you only need three countries to enter, they compete, and you call it the "Worlds." It's a competition and you hand out Gold, Silver, and Bronze medals on the podium. That's all you need, and from this point on it continues to grow. Everything has to start from the beginning. Some one even posted that the real "Worlds" began very small--something like three countries competitng in figures and then it grew from there.

Mountain Cup and Oberstorf already has the numbers, pick one, ask Cinquenta to wave his magic bejeweled septar over it, and it's the Adult Worlds. End of story. If we want it we just ask for it...that's how Obersdtorf happened: a group of skaters wanted an ISU sanctioned competition--they asked for it and got it.

[skaternum]

I disagree that the Adult Skating community can just make up its own definition of "Worlds." Doing so would be a real blow to the integrity of adult skating, in my opinion. I know many of us are concerned that adult skating isn't taken as seriously as it should be. Don't you think that b**tardizing an accepted athletic term just makes us look frivolous? I think that we need to follow the model of a real Worlds.

Jazzpants is right on the money. The distinction that makes something a "Worlds" isn't how many people or how many countries -- it's about National Governing Bodies (such as Skate Canada or the USFSA) selecting skaters through some merit-based process to represent their country.

If we want a real Worlds, step 1 is to help skaters in non-US countries develop their programs.

[doubletoe]

Doubletoe, it doesn't have to be the top skaters from every country. We don't have to exactly mirror the elite structure to have something that is international and satisfying to everyone--a competition that we can call OUR "Worlds."

You are overlooking the fact that people assume that the winner of any competition called "Worlds" is going to hold the title of "World Champion." That's where I have an issue with your argument. I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one feeling a little resentful if someone who was an average skater won "Worlds" as a result of the utter lack of qualifying criteria and low turnout (due to the cost and time commitment). Calling that person the "World Champion" would be a gross misrepresentation, and there is no sense in calling it "Worlds" if the winners aren't going to be the legitimate world champions--which they won't be.

[coskater64]

Before any of this there needs to be an agreed upon set of qualifiers for the levels. What tests in each country are equal to each other? Once you set a standard for each level you can then see if those countries have qualifying events that allow for a merit based selection process through which the top adult skaters would compete. Getting skater's to agree upon the levels would be first and the ISU would have to do that. Also, if I am not mistaken getting this ISU sanctioned event was not a matter of waving a wand, it took a lot of work from the working group and Phyllis Howard to get it going, it will gain speed only as more people go to the event.

[pairman2]

Dear Skaternum

I agree with you the "it's about National Governing Bodies...selecting skaters through some merit based process to represent their country." This would make the ideal Adult Worlds.

The reason I asked the questions is that I start to get the impression that for a good many adult skaters, this wouldn't quite be good enough. The number of skaters and their representative countries would never represent a sufficient cross section of the world.

This is precisely what I was hinting at in an earlier post and you picked up on it

"If we want real Worlds, step 1 is to help skaters in non-US countries develop their programs".

You know, this could just about apply to 'Real Worlds' as well. The most prominent skating dynasties as they exist now are: United States, Canada, Russia, France, China and Japan. We could quibble about a few others but the point is that the number is SMALL, even in real Worlds. In the coming decades, one or two of these may diminish and a few may rise up. Add to this a point that Johnny Weir pointed out in his interview article I just read in the USFSA mag: He mentioned a skater that out performed many others but was not favored and did not place well because they didn't fit into one of the existing dynasties [my paraphrase]. If we established the participation of say 10 countries, would it really be a fair playing field from day one?

My point here is that all of us adult skaters will be dead and gone before we reach the ideal standards for a real Adult Worlds, and this against a backdrop of the Real Worlds that has it's own similar issues that are still taking generations to work out.

I don't disagree with you in theory, but if we wait for all the moon and stars to line up we may as well move onto something else. Perhaps the best way to develop Adult programs in other countries would be to put something out there and watch the other countries gradually rise to the occaision as they have in Real Worlds, such as China did with their pairs program and now Japan with their ladies and upcoming men. Not many years ago, they were hardly on the map at all. So what if it's US dominated now? 10 years from now, maybe it won't be. It might seem like we would only be promoting a big favor for ourselves if an Adult Worlds happened, but I think this might be the best way we could accelerate Adult skating throughout the rest of the world.

What about Oberstdorf? Doesn't that fulfill the same function of inclusion? Maybe, but if the majority of our skaters don't regard it as a true World competition, perhaps other countries may not regard it that way either. This could possibly cut both ways. Just a thought.

[doubletoe]

Before any of this there needs to be an agreed upon set of qualifiers for the levels. What tests in each country are equal to each other? Once you set a standard for each level you can then see if those countries have qualifying events that allow for a merit based selection process through which the top adult skaters would compete. Getting skaters to agree upon the levels would be first and the ISU would have to do that.

Bingo. That's the minimum that has to be done to make it meaningful.

[lovepairs]

First of all, the qualifying structure for our own Adult Nationals certainly doesn't mirror the elite Nationals. Case in point, the botch job just recently done on the qualify structure for the new Championship Pairs event, which is not a "real" qualifier at all, but, rather just an open door.

Okay, that being said, why is it so imperative that an Adult Wolrds exactly mirrors the real Worlds?

And since when is America the Skating Police who has to develope skating programs in other countries before we can have a World competition among the countries who have developed their skating programs, which is apparent by skaters who are already competing and representing several countries at Mountain Cup and Obersdtorf?

The majority of our own Adult Nationals is an "open" competition, so why can't a Worlds, at least at it's inception be an "open" competition. It doesn't water down anything. If you call it the Worlds more people get excited about it and want to compete in it, and try to set aside the funds to go if they are able, and the thing begins to grow on it's own accord, and sometime in the future there are enough countries with "developed programs" that you can actually put together a "qualifying" World competition. However, it has to begin somewhere and some point. Which is why the "qualifier" for the Pairs Championship is not a botch job, I stand corrected...I just made a point that everything has to start somewhere, so I take that back. Wouldn't it be nice if we could see this happen in our life time? I for one would really be excited to see this come about to complete the structure: Adult Sectionals, Nationals, Worlds...and then I'm going to come back to this forum and post a new thread: Should the Adult Skating Community have an Olympics? The Special Olympics have an Olympics, so why don't we?

The Special Olympics come to think of it is a good example of people not getting all twisted up over nomenclature and finding a way to give meaning to what they do and enjoy doing. You can call something, something without it having to mirror the exact Olympics. Ciquenta has the power to sanction an event on the international stage, with or without his magic wand. I never meant to imply that it won't take hard work. Obersdtorf or Mountain Cup is already totally poised to become a VARIATION of a World competition for Adult Skaters that could have the potential of carrying the same prestigue (sp?) and excitement for us as the real Worlds does for the elites.

[coskater64]

What I don't understand is this incredible need to make MC and O'dorf something they were not meant to be and why you don't seem to want to listen to anyone else but ram your thinking on what it should be down everyone else's throat. Again and again people say ...it's not adult worlds, again and again you don't listen..fine, when you go, it can be your worlds. Your skating is what you make of it...if you have to inflate it to that level to make you feel good then..go ahead.

I've done the event twice, I've done MC twice, I am nothing more than an adult skater who is lucky enough to have the means to attend these events. I am not a skater who believes because I came in 2nd or 3rd at these events I have done anything better than anyone else. I have only gone out and performed my program and enjoyed myself while hanging out with my friends. My skating brings me joy and satisfaction, I am not a winner, I am not loser, I am an adult skater who enjoys the sport for what it is. I do not skate for titles..if you do,-- then so be it.

The ISU event is not a "world" event, neither is Mountain Cup, they are however great events, they represent people who love the sport, and come from all over the world. A championship event by it's very defintion must have a qualifying round or be decided, based on merit. Your insistance that it just be a free-for-all is just that, your pushing your views down the throats of us all. Adult skating will continue to grow and evolve, maybe it will follow standard structure maybe it will not, no one can say.

As for the special olympics they do have qualifying for skating, then they go on to the next level. We have at my rink the men's special olympic skating champion, named Paul who is 41 and can land an axel, he is and will always be a champion regardless of the title. While he is proud of the medal, he is more proud of the fact that he continues to skate.

[jp1andOnly]

Special Olympics has a very complex qualifying criteria. Trust me, weeding through all the documentation is a task in itself.

I won't ever call the ISU competition "worlds" because it is not!!!! It is an international competition.

In order for it to be a world competition, there needs to be some form of criteria. Right now anyone can pick their level. Heck, if I thought in my head it was "worlds" I'd place myself in the lowest level to get a medal. Maybe selfish, but I bet a slew of people would do it to.

Perhaps having qualifying "championship events" might lead to some sort of World event or some form. However, that requires qualification.

Every sport that has a world championship has qualification for it. You can't just show up

If it makes you feel better call it "Variations of Adult Worlds" but in all honesty (and exactly what the organizing committee says) its an ISU adult international event.

Edited to add: Special Olympics IS an Olympics because they have MANY sports. Figure skating is just one part. There are the SENIOR olympics. Perhaps when you get old enough to participate there might be figure skating :) Again, youi can't have an Olympics for 1 sport.

First of all, the qualifying structure for our own Adult Nationals certainly doesn't mirror the elite Nationals. Case in point, the botch job just recently done on the qualify structure for the new Championship Pairs event, which is not a "real" qualifier at all, but, rather just an open door.

Okay, that being said, why is it so imperative that an Adult Wolrds exactly mirrors the real Worlds?

And since when is America the Skating Police who has to develope skating programs in other countries before we can have a World competition among the countries who have developed their skating programs, which is apparent by skaters who are already competing and representing several countries at Mountain Cup and Obersdtorf?

The majority of our own Adult Nationals is an "open" competition, so why can't a Worlds, at least at it's inception be an "open" competition. It doesn't water down anything. If you call it the Worlds more people get excited about it and want to compete in it, and try to set aside the funds to go if they are able, and the thing begins to grow on it's own accord, and sometime in the future there are enough countries with "developed programs" that you can actually put together a "qualifying" World competition. However, it has to begin somewhere and some point. Which is why the "qualifier" for the Pairs Championship is not a botch job, I stand corrected...I just made a point that everything has to start somewhere, so I take that back. Wouldn't it be nice if we could see this happen in our life time? I for one would really be excited to see this come about to complete the structure: Adult Sectionals, Nationals, Worlds...and then I'm going to come back to this forum and post a new thread: Should the Adult Skating Community have an Olympics? The Special Olympics have an Olympics, so why don't we?

The Special Olympics come to think of it is a good example of people not getting all twisted up over nomenclature and finding a way to give meaning to what they do and enjoy doing. You can call something, something without it having to mirror the exact Olympics. Ciquenta has the power to sanction an event on the international stage, with or without his magic wand. I never meant to imply that it won't take hard work. Obersdtorf or Mountain Cup is already totally poised to become a VARIATION of a World competition for Adult Skaters that could have the potential of carrying the same prestigue (sp?) and excitement for us as the real Worlds does for the elites.

[skaternum]

"If we want real Worlds, step 1 is to help skaters in non-US countries develop their programs".

You know, this could just about apply to 'Real Worlds' as well. The most prominent skating dynasties as they exist now are: United States, Canada, Russia, France, China and Japan. We could quibble about a few others but the point is that the number is SMALL, even in real Worlds. In the coming decades, one or two of these may diminish and a few may rise up. Add to this a point that Johnny Weir pointed out in his interview article I just read in the USFSA mag: He mentioned a skater that out performed many others but was not favored and did not place well because they didn't fit into one of the existing dynasties [my paraphrase]. If we established the participation of say 10 countries, would it really be a fair playing field from day one?
It's not about making things fair and leveling a playing field for every country. That's not what I'm talking about. It's a lot simpler than that. Every country that particpates in Worlds has to have some mechanism for selecting its skaters. Most countries' adult skating programs aren't developed to that point. So these countries need to be developed: develop an adult test structure, develop Nationals or some other selection criteria, etc.

[pairman2]

OK, I'd really like to hear what the rest of the world thinks of this and not just the Americans. I know there are quite a few people who post here from around the globe. What do you think? Would you like to see a santioned Adult Worlds? Even if your country isn't presently in a position to send official competitors (USA isn't either), is this something that you and your countries adult skaters would aspire to? I'd also be curious to hear your impressions of how adult skaters in your country are currently organizing.

[BatikatII]

Ok I'm not an American and I think everyone on both sides of the debate is getting a bit hung up on nomenclature here. So what if some people want to call anything they like 'Adult world's' (the clue is in the word 'Adult' - which generally implies that there will competitions for various levels unlike the real skating 'world Championship' where there is only one level - the highest!) After all isn't it the Americans that play 'World' Series baseball when what they really mean is 'American' baseball! (ok so there may be one or two other teams in it - are there? But basically it's America vs, well,.... America.

If you have an 'Adult world's' where only the best adult skaters from each country go to compete, that appears to completely negate most of what most adult skaters seem to want, i.e the chance to compete at their level against others of their level. Obviously those who started as adults particularly in their 30's, 40's and above are never going to be competitive at a high level so an Adult World's (in the sense all those against calling Oberstdorf or whatever an Adult Worlds, seem to mean) is pointless.

So why not call it 'Adult Worlds Open' or something (which those who like to, can shorten to Adult World's) and the main problem then is trying to equate the various test or whatever structures between those countries from which the competitors come.

Few countries besides America will ever have enough skaters to make qualifying sectionals/regionals etc necessary or reasonable so American demands for 'qualifying' are pointless for most other countries.

None of the national governing bodies are ever likely to put up money to help adult skaters so even if you have qualifying rounds it will still be limited to those who can afford to go - just as AN in America is limited to those who can afford to go, no matter how good at skating they may be.

The only sensible pre-qualification you could have in the UK at the moment is to require that those wishing to go to an Adult World's must have participated in the preceding British Adult Championships. Those championships currently have no qualifying for Free skating and the only qualification in dance is to have participated in at least one open in the preceding season.

As for those who would be peeved if some lesser skater than themselves could afford to go to Adult Worlds and then called themselves 'World Champion' - well how different is that from now, when those who go and compete abroad can claim to have 'International gold medals' or whatever. Sounds good but we all know what it means and those outside the skating world are unlikely to be interested anyway! and I would hope that whoever won would only be calling themselves 'World Champion' with tongue firmly in cheek!

In fact at one of the British Championships, one class was basically contested between two skaters from the same rink (plus one other real beginner) so really it was much the same as if it had been a closed club competition but the winner still took great delight and pride in being 'British Champion' of the over 50's at a low level.

We all know what it really means but it's made her happy and why not.

[lovepairs]

BatikatII = voice of reason.

Thanks you Batik for saying everything that I was trying to say, but in a very coherant way.

I think that's a good qualifier for Adults, that is if you attended and competed in your countries Nationals that year, you qualify to compete in the Adult World Open. Maybe as it grows, in several years, and more countries attend then the "qualifier" can become tighter; let's say the top 5 in every event at their Adult Nationals qualifies to go...so on and so forth.

Just a note: To the best of my knowlege (and experience) I've never heard the adults refer to the Gold medalists in any given AN competition as "National Champions." It's alway, so and so, took the Gold Medal in their event. To refer to the Special Olympics Gold Medalist in any event as the "Olympic Champion" is rediculous and really not fair to the other Special Olympic athletes. Again, the elite competitions and structure is unique-- nothing within the Adult Skating community, such as Adult Nationals, or the Special Olympics organization mirrors it exactly. I think we all agree that our bottom line is that anyone who gets out there as an adult and tries to do this stuff is a winner. The "qualifier" has to be in an appropriate proportion to who we are and what we are able to do. Considering who we are and what we are able to do I would very much like to see an Adult Worlds someday, which is not an ego-based desire, but rather a desire to bring more cache to the entire sport of Adult Figure Skating.

For those who are very protective, for whatever reason, that Oberstdorf and Mountain Cup just stay as they are, I have no problem with seeing another venue created, which would be an Adult Worlds, and would travel around each year, from local-to-local, just as the Adult Nationals does in the United States.

Yes, I understand how much work this would entail, but right now we are just discussing whether, or not it is "theoretically" possible, and if there would be interest in it around the world.

Thank you Batik for responding, and I would really really love if other skaters reading this thread from other countries outside the US would weigh in on this, too.

[jazzpants]

Few countries besides America will ever have enough skaters to make qualifying sectionals/regionals etc necessary or reasonable so American demands for 'qualifying' are pointless for most other countries. Yup! I think it's silly to expect that. I mean how many people on this board can afford to go globtrotting to different continents on an annual basis anyway? I mean, my trips to my in-laws each Christmas is already bad enough and that's NOT including room and board (b/c we stay at the in-laws...) :)

As for those who would be peeved if some lesser skater than themselves could afford to go to Adult Worlds and then called themselves 'World Champion' - well how different is that from now, when those who go and compete abroad can claim to have 'International gold medals' or whatever. Sounds good but we all know what it means and those outside the skating world are unlikely to be interested anyway! and I would hope that whoever won would only be calling themselves 'World Champion' with tongue firmly in cheek!They are some adults who are, sad to say, has more "elitist" (for lack of a better term I could think of for someone in the US East Coast whose body clock is still on US West Coast time...but THERE, I said it!!! :twisted:) views about how adult competitions should be. I mean, let's face it! We're never going to the Olympics, or get endorsement deals from McD's or Nike. Chances are very good at the end of the day that we're all going back to our normal every jobs! (Outside of the adult skating circles, for instance, no one will every know about my primary coach. Jay certainly doesn't think that someday he would ever be 'rich and famous' either.) I don't see the point of it, frankly.

[flo]

It's to early in the process to have an Adult Worlds, or a pretend adult Worlds. I'd rather wait and have it done well then have an event just designated as worlds just for the sake of having it and satisfying egos.

Without the foundation for such an event, the medals/titles would be pretty hollow.

[doubletoe]

So why not call it 'Adult Worlds Open' or something.

That sounds reasonable; I wouldn't have a problem with that. I just want to avoid the use of the term, "World Championship", which is misleading. If those who want to be able to call it "Worlds" don't mind that the gold medal doesn't mean a world championship, why do they mind that it isn't called "Worlds"? That's what's confusing to me.


As for those who would be peeved if some lesser skater than themselves could afford to go to Adult Worlds and then called themselves 'World Champion' - well how different is that from now, when those who go and compete abroad can claim to have 'International gold medals' or whatever. Sounds good but we all know what it means and those outside the skating world are unlikely to be interested anyway! and I would hope that whoever won would only be calling themselves 'World Champion' with tongue firmly in cheek!

[QUOTE=BatikatII] If everyone were able to keep a tongue-in-cheek perspective on it, I'd have no problem with it, either. Unfortunately, there are a few adult skaters who take this stuff a little too seriously and would not hesitate to make the "World Champion" claim (which is a false claim) as opposed to simply claiming an international gold medal (which is a true claim). You can say it wouldn't happen, but I know for a fact that it already has, in spite of the fact that the Oberstdorf competition is not even officially called "Adult Worlds." Those outside of the skating community would have no reason not to believe the "World Champion" claim, and even within the skating community, most people aren't "in the know" on the details of adult competitions, so a good percentage would buy the claim as well. I can laugh off the ever-popular "sandbagger" issue and I would be the first to welcome our Pre-Bronze friends to Adult Nationals, but for some reason, giving anyone an opening to claim to be "Adult World Champion" without a more legitimate process just offends my sense of fairness.

[Raye]

BatikatII = voice of reason.

Thank you Batik for saying everything that I was trying to say, but in a very coherant way.

I think that's a good qualifier for Adults, that is if you attended and competed in your countries Nationals that year, you qualify to compete in the Adult World Open.

Thank you Batik for responding, and I would really really love if other skaters reading this thread from other countries outside the US would weigh in on this, too.

My Canadian two cents:

To quote Shakespeare 'What's in a name?'

I have been to MC twice, Oberstdorf twice, several different competitions in the US, and Tallinn once. I have, in the past referred to Oberstdorf as ISU International, Adult International, Adult Worlds.... and a few other similar titles. I am in no way deluded into thinking I am a world champion, however I do refer to myself as an Adult International Competitor.

The qualifier of having attended Canadian Adult Nationals in order to be allowed to compete in Oberstdorf would have precluded myself and at least one other Canadian that was in Oberstdorf from being there this year. We each had our valid reasons for not being at CAN, and we are both thankful that CAN is not a qualifier for Oberstdorf.

Let's not quibble over a name and just enjoy the events for what they are, a reason for adults to get together and do what we like to do best, skating and socializing.

[lovepairs]

Ray,

Thanks for responding. So, if there were an 'official Adult World,' what do you think a good qualifier would be? Or, do you think it should just be an "open" event. I hear you about not attending CAN, but wanting to go to Europe.

Or, is it your opinion, not to have a separate Adult Worlds, stop quibbling over names, think of Oberstdorf as the Adult Worlds, or not (whatever you wish) and place the emphasis on socializing? I'm just a little unclear about some of your responses, but interested in hearing what you think.

Thanks,
lovepairs

[skaternum]

You know, the whole tone of this thread (and the one that spawned it) is getting a little weird. It's apparent that some adult skaters want to have something - no matter what the format -- called Worlds. And some adult skaters want to see that name reserved for something with a very specific meaning. It is being insinuated that those of us who fall into the latter category are uptight, elitist, uber-competitive, and <insert original insulting prissy phrase here>.

A friendly reminder: The fact that we hold a different opinion from one another does not make us wrong or you right. It simply means we disagree.

[manleywoman]

You know, the whole tone of this thread (and the one that spawned it) is getting a little weird. It's apparent that some adult skaters want to have something - no matter what the format -- called Worlds. And some adult skaters want to see that name reserved for something with a very specific meaning. It is being insinuated that those of us who fall into the latter category are uptight, elitist, uber-competitive, and <insert original insulting prissy phrase here>.

It works both ways. See post #42 where someone in the former camp was pretty much accused of one in your camp of being delusional and needing to inflate their ego by calling it "Worlds."

So everyone does need to be a bit more tolerant and agree to disagree without name calling on both sides.

[Hannahclear]

They are some adults who are, sad to say, has more "elitist" (for lack of a better term I could think of for someone in the US East Coast whose body clock is still on US West Coast time...but THERE, I said it!!! :twisted:) views about how adult competitions should be. I mean, let's face it! We're never going to the Olympics, or get endorsement deals from McD's or Nike. Chances are very good at the end of the day that we're all going back to our normal every jobs! (Outside of the adult skating circles, for instance, no one will every know about my primary coach. Jay certainly doesn't think that someday he would ever be 'rich and famous' either.) I don't see the point of it, frankly.

I agree with this. I've competed with a few adults, just a few, who took the whole thing so seriously and got so intense about it. I mean, I get really nervous, but I'm not crying over results or talking about judges conspiracies. It's just adult skating......

[FrankR]

I understand that there are arguments both for and against calling Oberstdorf the "Adult Worlds." I'm also fully interested in reading cogent arguments both for and against either side of the debate. However, when it starts to become negative in tone and the tension rises, it starts to feel like we're beating a dead horse.

Exhibit A

http://gymgossip.com/Smileys/Kustom/beatdeadhorse5.gif

Alas, poor Secretariat. I knew him well!! :cry: ;) :lol:

Can't we all just get along??

Frank

[icedancer2]

Just a note: To the best of my knowlege (and experience) I've never heard the adults refer to the Gold medalists in any given AN competition as "National Champions."

I HAVE heard people refer to themselves as "National Champions". To which I think: :roll: .

Maybe it is done tongue-in-cheek but somehow I miss that implication.

Anyway, this is a good discussion. Carry on.

[doubletoe]

I HAVE heard people refer to themselves as "National Champions". To which I think: :roll: .

Maybe it is done tongue-in-cheek but somehow I miss that implication.

Anyway, this is a good discussion. Carry on.

I see a little life still left in the horse and I think this is a very valid discussion, too. ;)
Yes, people winning their event at Adult Nationals have been known to call themselves Adult National Champions (and hopefully, they remember to specify their particular level and age class when they do so). And based on the structure of the USFS adult program, there's no good reason why they shouldn't make that claim. AN is well-attended by skaters from all three regions, age and competition levels are based on a common national standard, and even for the non-qualifying events there is a qualifying round at AN that peforms the equivalent function.

[FrankR]

I see a little life still left in the horse and I think this is a very valid discussion, too. ;)
Yes, people winning their event at Adult Nationals have been known to call themselves Adult National Champions (and hopefully, they remember to specify their particular level and age class when they do so). And based on the structure of the USFS adult program, there's no good reason why they shouldn't make that claim. AN is well-attended by skaters from all three regions, age and competition levels are based on a common national standard, and even for the non-qualifying events there is a qualifying round at AN that peforms the equivalent function.

Oh, I think it's a valid discussion as well. However, in reference to skaternum's post regarding the weird turn this discussion is taking, I just don't want to see this thread slide down that very slippery slope and end up locked because somebody felt offended and hence my previous post. Well that and I've been dying to use that little jewel of an animated smiley for a while now. :twisted: (I love that thing. LOL :lol: ) That having been said, I guess Saffy's got some life in her yet. ;)

[flo]

Love the horse, you were right the first time!

[Raye]

Raye, (not Ray, I am rather sensitive about that)

Thanks for responding. So, if there were an 'official Adult World,' what do you think a good qualifier would be?

It's too soon to tell right now, Adult Skating is still evolving and an "official Worlds" may be a few years off yet.

Or, do you think it should just be an "open" event. I hear you about not attending CAN, but wanting to go to Europe?

For now, and probably for the next few years, anyway.

Or, is it your opinion, not to have a separate Adult Worlds, stop quibbling over names, think of Oberstdorf as the Adult Worlds, or not (whatever you wish) and place the emphasis on socializing? I'm just a little unclear about some of your responses, but interested in hearing what you think.
I am not sure what is unclear, that is almost exactly what I said. The emphasis is on getting together to SKATE. Especially with the NJS, making it easier to keep our eyes on our own score-card


Thanks,
lovepairs

Oberstdorf is a first class International Competition, attended by enthusiastic Adult skaters from all over the world. Call it what you will, it was the experience of a lifetime, and I plan on attending for many years to come. Shall we see you there in the next year or two, wherever it ends up being hosted?.............

[manleywoman]

I agree with this. I've competed with a few adults, just a few, who took the whole thing so seriously and got so intense about it. I mean, I get really nervous, but I'm not crying over results or talking about judges conspiracies. It's just adult skating......
I know people with very inclusive attitudes about adult skating (ie: allowing pre-bronze in, lowering the age group, etc) who still freak out and cry over results and call foul on judges marks, or claim they lost because the judges didn't like their dress color. One really has nothing to do with the other. A lot of people take any competition too seriously regardless of the organization of the competition

And I know lots of people who call themselves National Champion, which I think is fine. It is our national championship after all.

What I can't stand are the "embellishments" that some skaters use when describing their own talents. But that's another discussion.

[pairman2]

I think this thread is reall interesting...besides, if we were not having it we would never have been able to see Frank's poor horse!!!!
In all seriousness, this is a very substanitive thread and if you look closely, there is enough material to start a few other equally interesting threads!
If anyone is uncomfortable, tired of it or think its irrelevant....well you tuned in. I have not seen anyone mean any harm. This is idea's. Enjoy.

[BatikatII]

I do agree that some people take the titles too seriously. In the British Adult Championships (which is what they are called, so theoretically it would be correct to call yourself A British Champion - not THE British Champion), there is added confusion that the age categories in dance and free are not the same so the champion at age category II in dance is actually champion of the over 50's, not of 35-50 as category II in free would be. The category II dancers didn't want that to be general knowledge!!!!:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

However if a 'lesser' skater had the temerity to call themselves 'World Champion' and then in a competition you beat them - wouldn't that be good to be able to say you beat the World Champion:lol: :lol: ?

But the people who are worrying about the possibility of lesser skaters being 'World Champions' when it's an open comp. would be taking it equally as seriously as those who would call themselves that so the answer is to not get worked up about it either way. When they call themselves world champ but the adult skating community knows what is involved then surely it doesn't matter.

I dont' believe there can ever be an adult 'Worlds' on the elite skating model and it would be pointless since there is already such a Worlds (most of the skaters competing at real worlds being adult with a few young teenage exceptions) and some countries struggle to get any skaters to that, so holding out for an elitist Adult worlds means never having a competition to call adult worlds. Maybe there shouldn't be one but I can't see who it is really hurting to call a competition Adult Worlds.

From 'the third best freeskater in Britain at level 2 and under (35-50 years old)' who could afford to have a weekend in Sheffield last year for the British Adult Championships and thoroughly enjoyed the competition and would have gone to an international if they weren't all at exam/local opens/college exhibition etc time but was thrilled to see a Brit won at Oberstdorf!!! (in fact she was the lady who won Gold at Sheffield in my comp).

[Debbie S]

What I can't stand are the "embellishments" that some skaters use when describing their own talents. But that's another discussion.Or embellishing their skating test level (as if "working on" a particular test is akin to having passed it already :roll: ). But yes, that's another story.

This has been an interesting discussion to read. I agree with Frank that we need to discuss this issue rationally and calmly. I haven't posted yet because having never been to O'dorf or any other int'l (or nat'l) comp, it's hard for me to say what the atmosphere is like and what they should be called, etc. I think it's been pointed out that while AN is called a "National" competition, in reality, like O'dorf and MC, it's open to anyone who wants/is able/has money to go (and with only 10 Bronze II competitors at AN this year, for example, I don't think you can say that the winner is unequivocally the best Bronze II skater in the country). And I know of at least one gold medal winner at AN who refers to herself as an "Adult National Champion". And that didn't bother me, nor does casually referring to O'dorf as "Adult Worlds" - hey, it's easier to say than "Adult International Competition". ;)

[skaternum]

I think it's been pointed out that while AN is called a "National" competition, in reality, like O'dorf and MC, it's open to anyone who wants/is able/has money to go (and with only 10 Bronze II competitors at AN this year, for example, I don't think you can say that the winner is unequivocally the best Bronze II skater in the country). And I know of at least one gold medal winner at AN who refers to herself as an "Adult National Champion". And that didn't bother me, nor does casually referring to O'dorf as "Adult Worlds" - hey, it's easier to say than "Adult International Competition". ;)The difference between US AN and the ISU competiton is that AN actually has championship events that are entered by people who qualified through their section. There are honest-to-god, defined-in-the-rulebook championship titles there. The same cannot be said about the ISU competition.

Yes, most of the events are open. No, they are not championships. No one who knows anything about skating believes that, for example, NoVa Sk8r is an Adult National champion. USFSA clearly defines who is an Adult National Champion and who is not. NoVa is the best guy in his age group and skill level who paid his entry fee that year. Anyone who wins an open event and claims to be an Adult Champion is simply incorrect. This doesn't detract from the fact that there are championship events at AN.

Why not model an Adult Worlds like that? A handful of real championship events, whose entrants are selected in some method by the governing bodies, and then an Open going on concurrently? (And thus poor NoVa still couldn't claim to be an Adult World Champion, since Silver Men II still wouldn't be a championship event. :lol: )

[lovepairs]

What horse?

[Isk8NYC]

I wish you people would stop talking about the Horse. Now I've got that bloody theme song stuck in my head again.
45 minutes of traffic home with the Mr. Ed tune in my brain. :frus: (I like that smiley and I don't use it a lot, either.)

Just play nicely, be polite and respectful, please. Discussion is a two-way street -- we have two ears because listening is twice as important as talking.

[manleywoman]

... there is added confusion that the age categories in dance and free are not the same so the champion at age category II in dance is actually champion of the over 50's, not of 35-50 as category II in free would be. The category II dancers didn't want that to be general knowledge!!!!:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
That's like people who say they got, say, the bronze medal in an event and fail to disclose that there were only three people in the event! Technically it's correct but it's misleading.

(But I've done it on occasion, but mostly to my parents. Who likes to tell Mom they came in last, when bronze sounds so much better?:giveup: )

[flo]

I can see the signature lines now.
Mine's going to be: 9 time US Adult National Championships Medalist for age groups II, III :adult, master: freeskate, Pairs, Interp - (with and w/o final rounds), who could afford to go, figured out the application, got practice ice and showed up and skated. And 5 time International competition medalist for more of the same.
:roll:

[Raye]

What horse?
Post # 56, this thread... :lol:

[Raye]

That's like people who say they got, say, the bronze medal in an event and fail to disclose that there were only three people in the event! Technically it's correct but it's misleading.

(But I've done it on occasion, but mostly to my parents. Who likes to tell Mom they came in last, when bronze sounds so much better?:giveup: )

On the other hand - when I won my first gold medal, I was the only person in the category, and was surprised to be presented with anything at all - the official said to me "You are still a winner - you showed up and 99% of life is about showing up" Same with your bronze - look at how many skaters didn't show up. You were there - the medal is yours.

[manleywoman]

I can see the signature lines now.
Mine's going to be: 9 time US Adult National Championships Medalist for age groups II, III :adult, master: freeskate, Pairs, Interp - (with and w/o final rounds), who could afford to go, figured out the application, got practice ice and showed up and skated. And 5 time International competition medalist for more of the same.
:roll:
Hilarious!:lol:

[dcden]

"...99% of life is about showing up"

I like that!

[lovepairs]

Oh, okay, got it.

[Ellyn]

When did the skaters at Worlds stop paying their own way?

In many ways it seems that the adult skating community now is somewhat like the original skating community of mostly adults who started the sport a century or so ago.

Only in the meantime there has developed another community of really really accomplished young adults and almost-adults who compete with in a very structured context 1) to determine who is the very best skater in the world without regard to personal financial ability to get to the competition and 2) provide a meeting point for the top skaters from all ISU member countries . . . and a whole youth-oriented system leading up to that level.

Although do some federations require international competitors to pay their own and/or coaches' expenses even to Worlds?

At the current adult skating community, 1) is kind of a moot point because even aside from financial resources, there's never going to be a truly level playing field for all adults because of differences in age, history of injuries and other physical problems that come with age, childhood skating experience, and so forth. If it were really about determining the best over-30 (or whatever age) skaters in the world, we'd just see elite skaters moving into adult competition as soon as they reached that age. That's only a small part of what adult skating these days is about.

2), an international meet for adult skaters from around the world to compete against each other, is a more reasonable purpose for adult skating. If there is one annual event that is the focus of international adult skating, we might want to call it "Adult Worlds" in the sense of "world-wide skating meet," just because it's shorter to say than some of the other alternatives. But without the necessary implication of being a world championships to determine the best of the best.

It's still never going to be all-inclusive for financial reasons. E.g., I've only ever competed locally, or at Adult Nationals the one year I could reasonably drive there in a day. Going to another continent to compete is something I might save up for to experience once, but never annually.

[BatikatII]

the official said to me "You are still a winner - you showed up and 99% of life is about showing up"

That is a brilliant way to look at it. I know a number of skaters who are better skaters than me but they don't compete - so I am the medallist at the Championships - maybe not a better 'skater' but a better 'competitor'.

and that's what competition is about.....being there.

And for an 'adult' worlds you'd be paying for it yourself no matter how good you are or how many qualifiers you've been through so 'being there' is still all about the money!!!!!(and the time off and understanding family etc etc.)

[BatikatII]

When did the skaters at Worlds stop paying their own way?

Although do some federations require international competitors to pay their own and/or coaches' expenses even to Worlds?



As far as I know many skaters still do pay for much of their own way and coaches etc. I know the British dance team (Kerrs) had some Sport England (charity ) or probably sport Scotland actually, funding which they lost and then regained but in the meantime they were begging skating fans to help by taking excess baggage for them.

Agreed with the rest of your post too!

[coskater64]

So exactly where are we? Oberstdorf and Mountain Cup are great events, just because they are not "worlds" or championship events doesn't make them any less of an event. They are fun, a great time that hopefully everyone on the board will one day get to enjoy. Why does it have to be made into such a big deal, the fun part is the judging system, seeing it at work, meeting new people from different countries. My favorite part is that we all have to watch the skaters that follow and then all of us wait together as a group for our results. They go from first to last, you gotta sit there and wait,...it really does a lot to help sportsmanship. You have to sit there and take full on responsibilty for how you skated...no matter what. so be it....

[doubletoe]

So exactly where are we? Oberstdorf and Mountain Cup are great events, just because they are not "worlds" or championship events doesn't make them any less of an event. They are fun, a great time that hopefully everyone on the board will one day get to enjoy. Why does it have to be made into such a big deal, the fun part is the judging system, seeing it at work, meeting new people from different countries.

Sounds good to me! And if people want to call either or both of these an "International Adult Open" competition, it would be totally fitting! :)

[aussieskater]

OK, I've read the thread with great interest, and am chiming in as I'm from a country with a very small standard track skating comunity - and an even smaller adult skating community! :) (Fear not, other Ozzie skaters, I'm only speaking for myself...:) )

I should say at the outset that I'm a relative beginner at skating, and I can't see that I'll ever be of a standard to attend these levels of competitions, no matter what they're called!

First, in short, from what I've read about Mountain Cup and O'dorf (and what I've gleaned from our local skaters who have attended both comps), no, I don't think either comp is yet an "Adult Worlds", although O'dorf particularly has the potential to become one (being as it is ISU-sanctioned).

Yes, I can see some benefit in having an Adult Worlds to aspire to; and no, I don't think it should be modelled on the standard track Worlds (with qualifying rounds etc required for all countries etc). Saying that, however, two things immediately came to mind as necessary before an "adult worlds" could be established (or grow out of an existing competition):

(1) We must have confluence in testing levels etc, so that competitors can't "self-select" into divisions. Without this, someone posted above that competitors could well sandbag for the sake of a "Worlds" medal. This is not goodness, and needs to be stopped before it starts.

(2) As the competion grows, perhaps it would be necessary to establish qualifying rounds along the lines of the Olys - "more than say XYZ competitors in a division would lead to qualifying rounds". I'm guessing the magic number would have to be smaller than the Olys' 24 as any adult comp needs age ranges, and too many competitors would lead to a competition which was too large, too unwieldy and too expensive to run (and attend).

Apart from those two things, the relatively small size of the adult skating community around the world would mean that too many other hurdles could well be counter-productive to the aim of adults from around the world competing against each other in a spirit of fun and fairness, and enjoying the socialisation at the end of the skating day? (Bring on the glass of red wine! Please? :P )

And one day, I might just get there, to watch and be awed at what adults can do!

[jazzpants]

Exhibit A

http://gymgossip.com/Smileys/Kustom/beatdeadhorse5.gif

Alas, poor Secretariat. I knew him well!! :cry: ;) :lol:

Can't we all just get along??

FrankROFLMAO!!! (Geez! What's a nice "welcome back to San Francisco", FrankR!!! Given you have the stick, good thing we didn't meet again this time! LOL!!!)

(I'm too tired to reply to this post other than the obviously humorous picture right now... when I'm caught up with "life," I might reply then...)

[rlichtefeld]

I think AussieSkater has hit the nail on the head.

Currently, the US well balanced program requirements are in flux. Gold Pairs just went from 3:10 to 3:40. Masters Senior just went from 4:10 to 3:40. Actually ALL Masters events are now 3:40

And, until they settle down, I don't think we will be able to expect to get any consensus on what should be necessary for each level at a "Adult Worlds".

At Mountain Cup, they pretty much use the US model, but at the ISU International, they use their own. But, now our US WBP requirements don't even match our adult tests!

However, since the Mountain Cup does at least have a Comparable Table of Tests (http://barbara.standke.free.fr/cdlm2006/coupedocuments.html) that they use to try to eliminate sandbagging. I would submit that it is closer to a Worlds than the ISU International.

So, to me, I think a necessary condition for an Adult Worlds is standardized test levels for each event. But, considering how much problem we have in the US, it will probably be a while before this happens at the ISU.

Rob


(1) We must have confluence in testing levels etc, so that competitors can't "self-select" into divisions. Without this, someone posted above that competitors could well sandbag for the sake of a "Worlds" medal. This is not goodness, and needs to be stopped before it starts.

(2) As the competion grows, perhaps it would be necessary to establish qualifying rounds along the lines of the Olys - "more than say XYZ competitors in a division would lead to qualifying rounds". I'm guessing the magic number would have to be smaller than the Olys' 24 as any adult comp needs age ranges, and too many competitors would lead to a competition which was too large, too unwieldy and too expensive to run (and attend).

[pairman2]

Regarding the sub-topic of claiming titles, I agree that anyone making a claim on a 'world', or even a US title, short of Championship events is a little tacky. I do agree that one has a right to boast to their Mom that they are bronze medalist, even when its last place!!!!! After all, what are Mom's for!!! I do agree that 'showing up' is a valid reason to feel personal pride. I feel that those who consistently show up, take last place or who take tests 3, 6, or 10 times before passing deserve a special place of honor simply for perseverance; in fact, I think that's worth more then most 'national titles' personally. [I think Eli deserves an article in the USFSA mag]. I haven't been reading threads for all that long but I've never observed a true Championship title being boasted about which speaks to the humility and sportsmanship of the Championship contenders. As a matter of fact, boasting of any title here is very rare.

[manleywoman]

[I think Eli deserves an article in the USFSA mag].
Please write an article on Eli and submit it! I've been watching him skate for years and he's one of my favorites to watch. I don't know much about him, but I alwyas cheer loudly when I see him.

[flo]

Call Eli's home, the answering machine greeting is sweet.

[lovepairs]

I feel that those who consistently show up, take last place or who take tests 3, 6, or 10 times before passing deserve a special place of honor simply for perseverance

So, Pairsman2, when are we having my "place of honor" ceremony? How about the Four Seasons hotel in Philly...we can through a big party celebrating my cascading Intermediate Moves failures! Weeewhooo party!!! :frus: ;)

[lovepairs]

Hey, you know what I heard today from a very reliable source ( a Russian coach who goes back to visit friends and family in Russia):

She told me that Adult Skating is now being offered in Russia. She said that as disposable income is becoming more available that some adults are starting to skate. She also said that it hasn't quite infected the Russian adult phyque (sp?), yet, like it has here in the US.

Do you think anyone from Russia, who reads and writes English is on this site? If you are, let us know what is going on in Russia with Adult Skating--we would love to hear. Or, if anyone else on this site has visited Russia and knows what is going on with Adult Skating over there, let us know.

[pairman2]

Manleywoman
It's great that you agree about an article for Eli. The best source for an article would be a fello adult skater from the White Plains/ NY area that has been close enough to watch Eli in practice and local shows throughout his long history. This would give the more depth then someone at a distance. Having said that I'd be happy to contribute. I've seen Eli gearing up for many -a- compitetion over the years. The best part would be a large photo of Eli, in signiture costume ready to bow at the end of his program.
Lovepairs
Yes, you will get an honor party one way or another :-)

[TimDavidSkate]

Please write an article on Eli and submit it! I've been watching him skate for years and he's one of my favorites to watch. I don't know much about him, but I alwyas cheer loudly when I see him.


:bow: such longevity :bow:

I really have so much respect for him. He is all over the place

[rlichtefeld]

There were 8 skaters from Russia at the Mountain Cup this year. The first year anyone from Russia had competed there. They did rather well. Three Golds and 5 Silvers!
http://www.gerfsc.com/mountcup.htm

One of my favorite mementos of the comp is a Skating Club of Moscow flag that one of their skaters gave to me. I had it proudly sticking out of my rucksack the whole time!

Rob

Hey, you know what I heard today from a very reliable source ( a Russian coach who goes back to visit friends and family in Russia):

She told me that Adult Skating is now being offered in Russia. She said that as disposable income is becoming more available that some adults are starting to skate. She also said that it hasn't quite infected the Russian adult phyque (sp?), yet, like it has here in the US.

Do you think anyone from Russia, who reads and writes English is on this site? If you are, let us know what is going on in Russia with Adult Skating--we would love to hear. Or, if anyone else on this site has visited Russia and knows what is going on with Adult Skating over there, let us know.

[Mrs Redboots]

That's like people who say they got, say, the bronze medal in an event and fail to disclose that there were only three people in the event! Technically it's correct but it's misleading.

(But I've done it on occasion, but mostly to my parents. Who likes to tell Mom they came in last, when bronze sounds so much better?:giveup: )As one of my friends pointed out, third out of three is much better than 2nd out of 2 - when you show the grandchildren your podium photos, you can let them think there were 30 competitors in the class.....

(And our non-default medals, especially in dance, are few and far between - and all the more cherished for that).

[Mrs Redboots]

She told me that Adult Skating is now being offered in Russia. She said that as disposable income is becoming more available that some adults are starting to skate. She also said that it hasn't quite infected the Russian adult phyque (sp?), yet, like it has here in the US.

Do you think anyone from Russia, who reads and writes English is on this site? If you are, let us know what is going on in Russia with Adult Skating--we would love to hear. Or, if anyone else on this site has visited Russia and knows what is going on with Adult Skating over there, let us know.There was, for the first time, a big team of Russian skaters at the Mountain Cup. Which was great. I think that last year there was a team at the Vana Tallinn trophy (I didn't go, but I heard about it), and they were very impressed with what they saw there.

It was great to have the Russians join the international adult skating community this year! And, from the requests I'm getting to join the Mountain Cup group, more and more are interested in coming next year.

[Terri C]

[I think Eli deserves an article in the USFSA mag].

I do have to second that suggestion for a article!
I competed with him at May Day Open in May and it was a rare chance for the kids and parents at my rink to see me compete. They rooted for Eli as loudly as they did for me!
He also is a fabulous demonstration of what we all need to do, just enjoy our skating for what it is and wherever it takes us, whether it's just local competitions, the adult non-qual circuit, AN, O'dorf, MC, etc, and/or passing that pill of a test of us, whatever test that may be.

[jazzpants]

I wish you people would stop talking about the Horse. Now I've got that bloody theme song stuck in my head again.
45 minutes of traffic home with the Mr. Ed tune in my brain. :frus: (I like that smiley and I don't use it a lot, either.)

Just play nicely, be polite and respectful, please. Discussion is a two-way street -- we have two ears because listening is twice as important as talking. Just for ISk8NYC for her long commute over the bridge from Staten Island... :P

A horse is a horse, of course, of course,
And no one can talk to a horse of course
That is, of course, unless the horse is the famous Ms. Saffy!!!

:twisted: :lol: :twisted: :lol: :twisted: (Sorry! Couldn't resist...)

The rest of the post... yeah, what she said... :P

[starskate6.0]

Interesting subject. :??
I was in Oberstdorf last year, skated OK had a great time, partied with people and had a lot more fun off the ice than on. The skating and the people where great Oberstdorf and there people where fantastic.

Lets face it folks, its not the Worlds, ( althought there are some that think otherwise .....again"..) but it is a place for skaters of all ages to be together to share a passion for the sport we love, the trophies are nice the event wonderful, :) but the true event is the event it self and meeting those from other countries and having a great time. ( especialy in the taverns.). For those of you that won medels I congratulate you all and I hope you had a wonderful experience in that beautiful town.

I was not able to make it this year and things are not well for me at the moment, skating will have to take a back seat in my life for perhapes another year, but i wish you all well and i hope that next year I will return to Oberstdorf . I miss the competition but I may be around to help at Halloween.

Nice to say hello to you all.
Ross. :)

[NoVa Sk8r]

Nice article on Jan Calnan on Canadian sports site:
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/FigureSkating/2006/06/18/1639738-sun.html

But here we go again. This is how the article defines the O'dorf comp:
"the discipline's world championships, for all intents and purposes." Ugh.

[starskate6.0]

Im with you on this one.:?? 8O However I do congratulate those who came home with medels and Im glad this is not the so called " World Adults" I don't think it would survive. Few would qualify and there would never be enough competitors to fill an even or make it worth holding . I know I would never qualify if that was the case.:roll: Im happy just to be able to show up..:P
Maybe next year..:cry: , Good story though and good for Adult skating in Canada. ( I did see somthing else too, which continues to be disturbing..:roll: :roll: ) ....

[jp1andOnly]

What did you see that was disturbing?

Im with you on this one.:?? 8O However I do congratulate those who came home with medels and Im glad this is not the so called " World Adults" I don't think it would survive. Few would qualify and there would never be enough competitors to fill an even or make it worth holding . I know I would never qualify if that was the case.:roll: Im happy just to be able to show up..:P
Maybe next year..:cry: , Good story though and good for Adult skating in Canada. ( I did see somthing else too, which continues to be disturbing..:roll: :roll: ) ....

[pairman2]

After reading the 'Slam' article that Nova posted, it occured to me that while the majority are expecting a neat tidy process in the making of an A. Worlds, maybe we'll all wake up a few years from now and discover that it more or less happened by other means. Maybe we'll be the last to show up for our own party. You just never know.

[Debbie S]

Hey, Pairman, check your PMs (private messages). :)

[lovepairs]

Nice article on Jan Calnan on Canadian sports site:
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/FigureSkat...39738-sun.html

Oh, so you mean I wasn't alone when I initially refered to Oberstdorf as an Adult Worlds...thanks for posting this article, Nova!

Pairsman2, READ YOUR EMAIL! :P

[flo]

Starskate, nice to see you back!
I agree, I enjoy the events for what they are, no need to inflate. Not surprised the press is uninformed, just dissapointed the skater did not correct them, or perhaps she never had a chance. We all know how that goes!

[jp1andOnly]

Usually the press prints things, you read it and realize they made a bunch of mistakes. I had a few articles written about me this year and was on tv and when I read them or watched, they were a bit inaccurate. There was nothing I could do about it and sometimes when peopel read or watch I tell them that some things are exactly right.



Starskate, nice to see you back!
I agree, I enjoy the events for what they are, no need to inflate. Not surprised the press is uninformed, just dissapointed the skater did not correct them, or perhaps she never had a chance. We all know how that goes!

[miss cleo]

This is a great article and Jan is a lovely skater. She brings honour not only to Canada for her accomplishments but is a wonderful embassador for Adult Skating worldwide. I guess life really does begin at 40!

Thank you for posting.

[starskate6.0]

There is dignity in this artical and a great boost for Adult skating in Canada and I am thrilled to see a deserving skater get press like this..:) :bow: Hats of to you Jan. It may not be the Worlds for Adults but an international champion you are.

[starskate6.0]

What did you see that was disturbing?

Best not said..can of worms you know, not related to the Canadian story at all.
I was very happy to see such positive public press for Adult Skating in Canada...:)

[lovepairs]

About the article...of course, the press is not always accurate. However, this article does underscore a general perception. Accurate, or not, a lot of people do perceive and regard Oberstdorf as an Adult Worlds of sorts. No need to start this argument all over again, and no need to beat Frank's Dead Horse. Apparently, 1/2 of us would like to see Oberstdorf sanctioned as an Adult Worlds, and 1/2 of us don't. What eventually happens is out of our hands anyway, so it doesn't matter.

[starskate6.0]

About the article...of course, the press is not always accurate. However, this article does underscore a general perception. Accurate, or not, a lot of people do perceive and regard Oberstdorf as an Adult Worlds of sorts. No need to start this argument all over again, and no need to beat Frank's Dead Horse. Apparently, 1/2 of us would like to see Oberstdorf sanctioned as an Adult Worlds, and 1/2 of us don't. What eventually happens is out of our hands anyway, so it doesn't matter.

True:?? I guess

[FrankR]

About the article...of course, the press is not always accurate. However, this article does underscore a general perception. Accurate, or not, a lot of people do perceive and regard Oberstdorf as an Adult Worlds of sorts. No need to start this argument all over again, and no need to beat Frank's Dead Horse. Apparently, 1/2 of us would like to see Oberstdorf sanctioned as an Adult Worlds, and 1/2 of us don't. What eventually happens is out of our hands anyway, so it doesn't matter.

My poor dead horse thanks you profusely. ;)

[lovepairs]

Hi Starskate, Hi FrankR :P

Lovepairs :halo:

[rlichtefeld]

I just got an email from the President of the adult club in Russia, and right now they are planning on attending the Peach Classic this year.

So, maybe we should start with the "Grand Prix of Adult Figure Skating". The Mountain Cup, the ISU International, the Vana Tallinn Trophy and the Peach Classic. And, like the Grand Prix, you get points for medalling in any of them, and the total points gives you bragging rights.

Rob

About the article...of course, the press is not always accurate. However, this article does underscore a general perception. Accurate, or not, a lot of people do perceive and regard Oberstdorf as an Adult Worlds of sorts. No need to start this argument all over again, and no need to beat Frank's Dead Horse. Apparently, 1/2 of us would like to see Oberstdorf sanctioned as an Adult Worlds, and 1/2 of us don't. What eventually happens is out of our hands anyway, so it doesn't matter.

[Mrs Redboots]

Talking of Oberstdorf..... I do wish I'd heard earlier about love2skate's costume malfunction....!!!! Apparently everybody threw toys on to the ice for him just so he could carry on mooning.

[NoVa Sk8r]

Talking of Oberstdorf..... I do wish I'd heard earlier about love2skate's costume malfunction....!!!! Apparently everybody threw toys on to the ice for him just so he could carry on mooning.Oh, that was too funny. He ripped his outfit after he fell on a 2toe (I think) at the beginning of his program. After his skate, he went around the rink to pick up his swag ... but he didn't realize that his outfit was ripped "down there" till he went to the K&C and a competitor told him. He then bowed backwards to the audience--it was quite the scene. (Not to mention the older lady sitting in front of me who had a pair of binoculars and was eagerly spying through them!)

[starskate6.0]

Hi Starskate, Hi FrankR :P

Lovepairs :halo:

Hi Lovepairs:D

[FrankR]

Hi Starskate, Hi FrankR :P

Lovepairs :halo:

Hi Lovepairs!

How you doin'?? :D

[flo]

Glad to hear the Russians are comming! (great movie) They were a really fun group, and we didn't really have a language barrier. Vodka's the same in both.

[rlichtefeld]

I just got another reply from them. It's a different set of Russians than the ones at MC. This is the group of Russians that did the Vana Tallinn Trophy this year.

And, there may be a pairs team. I'm trying to find out which level.

Rob

Glad to hear the Russians are comming! (great movie) They were a really fun group, and we didn't really have a language barrier. Vodka's the same in both.

[lovepairs]

Rob,

I love your Adult Grand Prix idea! Now you're talkin! :P

[jp1andOnly]

Again. in a perfect world we could do it.

Most people don't have THAT much time off nor the money.



Rob,

I love your Adult Grand Prix idea! Now you're talkin! :P

[lovepairs]

Reach for the stars!

Gooday (with accent) Starskater! Your wings are on order...don't give up...

Hi FrankR,

What's up is that I'm working on Intermediate Moves, so that I can take it for the fourth time up on Lake Placid during the August Adult week.

Sorry, don't meant to hijack this thread...okay, I'm done (see you next week in Hackensack!)

[rlichtefeld]

Another possible event for the Adult Grand Prix:

http://www.russianopen.narod.ru/index.html

Unless I'm mistaken, Nizhny Novgorod, is a section of Moskow. But, I can't find a map that lists it.

Rob

[skatingpanda]

Hi -
I have found this interesting site:

http://www.russiatrek.com/map.shtml

Nizhny Novgorod is to the East of Moscow, roughly half-way between Moscow and Kazan.

[SK8RX]

Nizhniy Novgorod is about a 6 hour train ride from Moscow, or roughly a one hour flight.

I think St. Petersburg would be great location. I'd do that one in a heartbeat.

[doubletoe]

I think the winner of this Adult Grand Prix could just be determined by totalling the frequent flying miles!

[jazzpants]

I think the winner of this Adult Grand Prix could just be determined by totalling the frequent flying miles!Back when Starskate6.0 was employed, he would win this one hands down!!! :lol:

(I hope he finds something soon! I know the airline industry's been cutting back b/c of fuel cost, security cost, whatever cost the executives need, etc... so I feel for him.)

[starskate6.0]

Let me see

Been traveling the World since I was 27, Im 46 now...thats:roll: 4 World tours 38 countries in 7 years with Disney + 4 years as a Ski bumb and back packer traveling Europe + being a pilot since 1993....8O " yea" I think thats about a million +:lol: :lol:

[lovepairs]

Yea, I think you're the winner, Starskate! :bow: