Foot Problem/Boot Update: Klingbeils Again!

[dbny]

I forwarded the email I received from Jackson to Tim Murray, but haven't gotten a reply. I told him I would understand if there were other considerations that would keep him from ordering a boot that might have to be returned.

I went to Klingbeil this morning, and Don fitted me all over again, even taking the molds over again. He wants to keep my boots and completely re-do them. I won't be able to leave them overnight until next Wed, and that is going to be a super hassle for me, but I have to do it. Klingbeil can now put a thinsulate lining in their boots, and I told Don I want to order a new pair with it, but he wants me to wait until he finishes the work on my current boots to be sure they get all the kinks worked out. In spite of the fact that I'm having so many problems with these boots, Don inspires confidence, and I would rather have a new pair of his boots with the thinsulate lining than the Jackson coaches boot.

I also asked Don about Superfeet orthotics (didn't get out to buy any in time), and he said they are worthless except for the custom ones they make with a special machine. He is going to look into that and may well go with it himself.

Sadly, Bill Klingbeil is not doing so well, and Don is now doing all of the fittings.

[Debbie S]

Glad to hear you're on your way to getting your boot problems fixed (hopefully for good)!

I'm sorry to hear Bill Klingbeil is sick.

What exactly is this new lining and what does it do? Is it new since December (when I got mine)? Does it make boots more comfortable, better fitting, or....?

[phoenix]

Glad to hear you're on your way to getting your boot problems fixed (hopefully for good)!

I'm sorry to hear Bill Klingbeil is sick.

What exactly is this new lining and what does it do? Is it new since December (when I got mine)? Does it make boots more comfortable, better fitting, or....?

Thinsulate is an insulation that they put into coaches boots, for hours of standing still on the ice.

[Isk8NYC]

I also asked Don about Superfeet orthotics (didn't get out to buy any in time), and he said they are worthless except for the custom ones they make with a special machine. He is going to look into that and may well go with it himself.I find that he does have his opinions and is not afraid to give them voice. He said something similar about heat molding, btw. If I didn't like him so much...

Sadly, Bill Klingbeil is not doing so well, and Don is now doing all of the fittings.That's too bad. Bill Klingbeil is a wonderful, funny man. Here's hoping for better health for him.

[Casey]

I find that he does have his opinions and is not afraid to give them voice. He said something similar about heat molding, btw. If I didn't like him so much...
Hey, I quite like that about him!

And I'm not a fan of the heat moldable sort of boots either. What it comes down to is that they are less supportive boots with a plastic layer in them that is melted to shape to your feet, then hardens to make up for the support the leather lacks in order to allow it to change shape. Yeah, this works alright and is cheaper than a custom fitting, but I'm not really a fan of having a plastic layer in my boots (and I have heat molded boots now)...

In any case Don has been incredibly useful throughout my pestering of him with various questions asking for his opinion... I certainly have a lot more respect for somebody who's willing to share their experience-formed opinion unrestrained than somebody who sidesteps around trying to say whatever makes you happy in order to make a sale.

And that's a big part of the reason I'm being fitted for Klingbeils tomorrow! :D

(sorry to hear the news about Bill as well, I hope things get better!)

[luna_skater]

Hey, I quite like that about him!

And I'm not a fan of the heat moldable sort of boots either. What it comes down to is that they are less supportive boots with a plastic layer in them that is melted to shape to your feet, then hardens to make up for the support the leather lacks in order to allow it to change shape. Yeah, this works alright and is cheaper than a custom fitting, but I'm not really a fan of having a plastic layer in my boots (and I have heat molded boots now)...



Casey with all due respect...is this your opinion based on research you have done, or from actually having worn a number of different skates over your lifetime? IIRC, you began skating less than 2 years ago. While everyone is entitled to their preferences, I personally think that those preferences should be based on experience. I have been skating for 20 years and think heat-molding is a god-send, no matter what the procedure might be. I have no problem with others disagreeing with me, or having a different preference, but I caution against making strong judgements that are only based on having read a lot of material on a subject.

[JulieN]

Thinsulate is an insulation that they put into coaches boots, for hours of standing still on the ice.
I just got new custom SP-Teri dance boots and I had Thinsulate put in them because my feet always get cold. They put a layer in-between the leather in the boots, but I also requested a layer under the insole as well -- something that they claim they've never done before. So far my feet feel pretty warm in them, but the real test will come in the winter.

Regarding heat-moldable skates -- I tried a pair of Graf dance boots and I never thought they heat molded that well. I don't know... I followed their directions to mold them myself in the oven, but maybe I didn't get them hot enough. One of the other reasons I tried Grafs is because of all the hype about how light they were. Yes they were lighter, but I really didn't feel any difference or benefit due to the lighter skates.

When I ordered my new SP-Teri boots, I didn't want any of that Clarino or other materials. I went back to good o' leather and I'm glad I did. They also told me that I can "heat mold" them in my convection oven (to some extent) and I did that. It worked about as well as heat molding my Grafs.

[Casey]

Casey with all due respect...is this your opinion based on research you have done, or from actually having worn a number of different skates over your lifetime? IIRC, you began skating less than 2 years ago. While everyone is entitled to their preferences, I personally think that those preferences should be based on experience. I have been skating for 20 years and think heat-molding is a god-send, no matter what the procedure might be. I have no problem with others disagreeing with me, or having a different preference, but I caution against making strong judgements that are only based on having read a lot of material on a subject.
I've skated not quite a year and a half.

My statements about the plastic layer and how it works are based on research I've done including looking at the layers in my boot where it's splitting apart... ;)

Sure, heat molding is easier than breaking in stock boots. But as I said, I don't like the idea of a plastic layer in my boots, simple as that. I'm not a fan of synthetic materials, generally. Heat molding is a shortcut alternative to a custom fitted boot, and regardless of how it may help a stock boot be broken in, it's just not on the same level as a boot made specifically for the shape of your individual foot.

And I like to think I'm entitled to my own opinion, regardless of how long I've been skating. Feel free to have your own, and to disagree or agree as you see fit...I'm just sharing mine, not saying it's right for everyone, nor that it will never change with experience.

[Isk8NYC]

I have no problem with Don expressing his opinion. He's actually quite fun when he really gets going! I think that heat molding has its uses and fans, and that's also quite alright. My kids skates are heat molded and their break in was much better than what I remember going through with stock boots.

Back on topic: Sorry, DBNY.
What are you going to do for skates during the fixup?

[dbny]

What are you going to do for skates during the fixup?

I'm going to race from the Jersey side of Staten Island to Klingbeil on Wed afternoon and drop them off. They will be ready for me to pick up at noon Friday on my way to the LI rink. I am going to have two pair of skates when this is all done, regardless of which ones it turns out to be!

[luna_skater]

I've skated not quite a year and a half.

My statements about the plastic layer and how it works are based on research I've done including looking at the layers in my boot where it's splitting apart... ;)

Sure, heat molding is easier than breaking in stock boots. But as I said, I don't like the idea of a plastic layer in my boots, simple as that. I'm not a fan of synthetic materials, generally. Heat molding is a shortcut alternative to a custom fitted boot, and regardless of how it may help a stock boot be broken in, it's just not on the same level as a boot made specifically for the shape of your individual foot.

And I like to think I'm entitled to my own opinion, regardless of how long I've been skating. Feel free to have your own, and to disagree or agree as you see fit...I'm just sharing mine, not saying it's right for everyone, nor that it will never change with experience.

(Edit: I took out the first line b/c I misread your post! Sorry!) For me, it's difficult to take the advice of a person who's worn one pair of skates in their life, and admittedly had numerous problems with them from the get-go. No amount of research can replace actually experience. That's why scientists do experiments. You are definitely right to acknowledge that your opinion may change with more experience.

ETA: For what it's worth, the boots I wear DO NOT have a plastic layer for heat molding. So you may need to update your research.

[Bunny Hop]

I also asked Don about Superfeet orthotics (didn't get out to buy any in time), and he said they are worthless except for the custom ones they make with a special machine.

I beg to differ here - after six weeks of my arches being in absolute agony with new boots, and losing a lot of skating time as a result, I went back to my fitter and he sold me a £20 pair of the standard Superfeet orthotics.

Instant result - I've had no pain since, and just wish I'd got them sooner as I'm now trying to catch back up to where I was before getting the new boots!

They may not work for everyone of course.

[dbny]

I beg to differ here - after six weeks of my arches being in absolute agony with new boots, and losing a lot of skating time as a result, I went back to my fitter and he sold me a £20 pair of the standard Superfeet orthotics.

Instant result - I've had no pain since, and just wish I'd got them sooner as I'm now trying to catch back up to where I was before getting the new boots!

They may not work for everyone of course.

What boots do you wear? I believe Don meant they were worthless in custom Klingbeils, as that's what we were talking about.

[Bunny Hop]

What boots do you wear? I believe Don meant they were worthless in custom Klingbeils, as that's what we were talking about.

Ah okay! That would make it much less of a generalisation! I wear Gams.

[phoenix]

I wear custom Klingbeils, this is my second pair, they are currently 3 years old. I have non-custom insoles (not Superfeet, but something similar) which helped a lot, have had them in from day 1. On my left foot I too have huge issues w/ outside edges & have major arch cookies under the insole in that boot. As the boots break down they twist slightly & I have to keep building up that arch more & more. It's working for now, I hope to get another year out of these boots.

Then I will face the dilemma of whether to stick w/ Klingbeil, which I do love. But I'm going to look around at others, including the new hinged boots from Jackson.

If I do get another pair of Klingbeils, it will done with a trip to NY to talk to the man personally & show him the issues w/ the boot.

[Casey]

For me, it's difficult to take the advice of a person who's worn one pair of skates in their life, and admittedly had numerous problems with them from the get-go. No amount of research can replace actually experience.
Then don't take it. I'm not giving advice, I'm sharing my opinion. I'm not trying to force you to have the same opinion - rather I think you should form your own based on whatever it is you do respect, which is what I've done. If you respect my experiences, feel free to let them influence your opinion, but if you don't feel free to not, I don't care. For what it's worth, I've spent a considerable amount of time learning more about skates than most people have who've been skating their whole lives. But at the end of the day, my feet are the only ones I expect to be affected by my opinion. I just don't take kindly to people telling me or anybody else that we shouldn't have and freely share our own opinions.

[icedancer2]

When I ordered my new SP-Teri boots, I didn't want any of that Clarino or other materials. I went back to good o' leather and I'm glad I did. They also told me that I can "heat mold" them in my convection oven (to some extent) and I did that. It worked about as well as heat molding my Grafs.

Julie -- how did you do this? Did you have to get a custom boot or were you able to get a stock boot in just plain old leather?

I'm having a lot of trouble breaking in the heat molded boots (I have the SP Teri Dance boot) -- I just can't get the crease and my ankles are starting to suffer (and the skating, well, arrrrggghhh!).

They may be easier to break in -- the insides feel good and molded to my feet, but yikes -- the break-in is no easier than in the plain old leather types.

Sorry to hi-jack this thread: but in regard to Casey's statement about heat-moldable boots just being a way to make stock boots easier to break in, I would beg to differ -- seems harder to me!!

and another question is: the heat-moldable option (if it is an option) not available (or desired?) in a custom boot?

I don't need a custom boot, so I guess I will never know...

Thanks. Interesting discussion.

[dbny]

and another question is: the heat-moldable option (if it is an option) not available (or desired?) in a custom boot?


I know a young skater who has custom Grafs, which are heat molded like the stock boots, so I guess the answer is yes. Interestingly, his mother told me that they never fit as well as the custom Klingbeils he had been wearing. He switched to Grafs for the lighter weight.

[luna_skater]

Then don't take it. I'm not giving advice, I'm sharing my opinion. I'm not trying to force you to have the same opinion - rather I think you should form your own based on whatever it is you do respect, which is what I've done. If you respect my experiences, feel free to let them influence your opinion, but if you don't feel free to not, I don't care. For what it's worth, I've spent a considerable amount of time learning more about skates than most people have who've been skating their whole lives. But at the end of the day, my feet are the only ones I expect to be affected by my opinion. I just don't take kindly to people telling me or anybody else that we shouldn't have and freely share our own opinions.

You're putting a lot of words in my mouth, Casey. I NEVER said you shouldn't share your opinion. And I did not say that I don't respect your opinion. My objective in responding to your post was to encourage other people to think carefully about the advice they choose to take. The initial post of yours I responded to is stating "facts":

"What it comes down to is that they are less supportive boots with a plastic layer in them that is melted to shape to your feet, then hardens to make up for the support the leather lacks in order to allow it to change shape. Yeah, this works alright and is cheaper than a custom fitting, but I'm not really a fan of having a plastic layer in my boots (and I have heat molded boots now)..."

In fact, the process you have described is not the case in ALL boots. It is the case in the brand you wear. Far be it for me to tell people whose opinion to listen to and whose to disregard. But please be wary of posting generalizations that may be incorrect, when you know other people come here specifically seeking advice.

[Casey]

You're putting a lot of words in my mouth, Casey.
Not intentionally...sorry for any misinterpretation.

In fact, the process you have described is not the case in ALL boots. It is the case in the brand you wear.
Ahh, I see your point now. :) Well, in Graf boots anyways, what makes them heat moldable is a layer of plastic within the boot. I was also told the same generalization by another fitter besides the one I went to so didn't think to specify a brand. So what do other brands have that makes them soften when heated and reharden when cooled?

[luna_skater]

Not intentionally...sorry for any misinterpretation.

Ahh, I see your point now. :) Well, in Graf boots anyways, what makes them heat moldable is a layer of plastic within the boot. I was also told the same generalization by another fitter besides the one I went to so didn't think to specify a brand. So what do other brands have that makes them soften when heated and reharden when cooled?

No worries. :) I wear Gams, and according to their website, their skates have "Leather supports that react uniquely to heat for perfect moulding." At first I was unsure whether that meant the supports were made of leather, or there are pieces supporting the leather (of an unspecified material) that are used for the heat moulding. But searching a little farther, I found this:

"Gam pioneered the technique [of thermal-adjustable skates], and thermal skate moulding is now widely recognized within the industry. But Gam still leads the field because its boots leather components and their heat-retracting properties allow for remarkably precise and efficient boot adjustment."

So there you have it. If you are still hunting for that "perfect" set of boots, you might want to give these a try. It took me very little time to break them in, and they aren't broken down at all after a year of competing in synchro and working on free skate. They FEEL like they are customs, even though they aren't. There is loads of padding throughout the boot, right down into the foot, so I don't have any discomfort. They get very sweaty due to all the padding, but when the padding warms up it actually forms to my foot, making them more comfortable. Here's their website if you are interested in more: http://www.gamskates.com.

[Isk8NYC]

DBNY: are you going to get the same blades for your new skates?

[Debbie S]

So there you have it. If you are still hunting for that "perfect" set of boots, you might want to give these a try. Well, in the interest of avoiding generalizations.....I had a pair of GAMs that were awful. First, they were too narrow and too long, so they never fit right. Granted, that was the fault of the fitter and not the boot company, but an even bigger problem was that the soles were uneven, which meant that I was never on the right edge, since the blades are mounted flat on the sole. And I didn't know about this until I went to another fitter to get fitted for new skates and he pointed this out to me (I had brought along my current skates so he could see how I'd broken them in, or not). Yes, the fitter who sold them to me should have checked before handing them over, but GAM did manufacture the boots. (Oh, so that's why I can't spin properly! Or end up on the correct edges in 3-turns!:x )

Also, a teenager at my rink was wearing a pair and had the sole come apart from the boot while she was on the ice. I know this is a common problem that happens to a lot of boot brands.....but let's not call any boot "perfect" - what's good for one skater is not necessarily good for another.

[luna_skater]

Also, a teenager at my rink was wearing a pair and had the sole come apart from the boot while she was on the ice. I know this is a common problem that happens to a lot of boot brands.....but let's not call any boot "perfect" - what's good for one skater is not necessarily good for another.

It may not have been clear, but that's why I put "perfect" in quotation marks. I am by no means implying they are perfect. They are "perfect" for me. And I did say Casey might want to try them, and then detailed my experience with them. Don't think I was generalizing at all. :)

[dbny]

DBNY: are you going to get the same blades for your new skates?

Yes, I'm sticking with Coronation Aces. I have no reason to change.

[Mrs Redboots]

Count me in the "Gams are perfect" camp! They happen to suit my feet & my skating, but I have known people who couldn't get on with them at all. Which is why you MUST get your feet measured and see what sort of boots suit your particular feet.

[AmandaS88]

I'm just curious what he meant by calling the superfeet " worthless". I've worked at a specialty running store for over 8 years and have dealt quite a bit with superfeet as well as numerous other types of arch supports. The catch with over the counter insoles is that you need to find one that fits your arch correctly. When you stand on the insole there should be little to no gap between your arch and the insole. With the superfeet I find the arches run pretty far to the back ( superfeet says it is because that is where most collapse happens, which is true, however supporting the entire arch is desirable and usually more comfortable). To move the arch farther forward it helps to go up a size and trim the excess. Moving up one size is usually not a problem, however if it is still too short, another brand may be best as you don't want to now have a heel that is too wide. Superfeet is also one of the few companies that makes an insolse designed for a skate. If the arch fits, it could save you some good money by going the over the counter route rather than custom. LONG STORY SHORT (sorry..i need to get out of the retail business) i just am curious why he finds them to be " worthless".

[Isk8NYC]

I also asked Don about Superfeet orthotics (didn't get out to buy any in time), and he said they are worthless except for the custom ones they make with a special machine. He is going to look into that and may well go with it himself.
<snip>I believe Don meant they were worthless in custom Klingbeils, as that's what we were talking about.Klingbeil's goal in making a custom skate is to eliminate the need for other products. (That is MY expectation of paying more for something custom.) In DBNY's original post, she states that he's evaluating Superfeet customs as an option for Klingbeil skates.

Yes, I know there are countless people on this Board who wear bunga pads, use insoles, and other products. But, you cannot fault a manufacturer that wants to make his/her product perfect, if for no other reason than to build customer loyalty and create a better product.

For those of you who don't know Don, he's very passionate about the company and its products. He's also justifiably proud of the Klingbeil name. Plus, he's quite funny and has a great sense of humor, especially when he gets on his soapbox.

Full disclosure: I've worn Klingbeils since 1985 and had the honor of being measured, fitted, and adjusted for my first pair by the founder, Mr. Bill Klingbeil.

[AmandaS88]

^^ fully understand, the thing is custom orthotics are not always neccesary unless you have an unusual foot that cannot be fit with over the counter insoles. When you compare a stock superfeet with a custom, they are not all that different in terms of quality and how they sit in a shoe, that part is going to be the same. More than anything i was just curious WHY exactly he would call them " worthless". Not questioning his or anyones intelligence. Even with custom orthotics some are better for certain things than others. There are also several different ways to make a custom orthotic. Some have you stand on a box of a memory foam material while seated. Some have you do it while standing. At my work the owner does custom orthotics and you stand on a machine and pins come up and make a topagraphical map of your foot. He moves your foot around a bit to get it into a neutral position. Anyway, as i said before I need to get out of retail and the foot business, as I am only 22 and personally am a bit concerned that I am able to ramble on like this about feet and foot products while not even at work. Worst of all, we don't get commision so its like, coming from the heart i guess...So scary.