Half Flip.. can't figure it out..

[xofivebyfive]

Okay so I hate the Half Flip. Probably because it lands foward AND on the left toepick. That's messed up. So I've been trying to figure out what the heck I'm doing wrong when try to do it. I was only show it briefly by my instructor, 2 minutes before my lesson was over, and I didn't fully comprehend what she was telling me to do. I can do the entry fine.. LFO 3turn and then stick my toepick in the ice.. and it's really fuzzy what happens after that. I've been searching online for any videos of a half flip, or anything that explains it in more detail. I guess what I need to know is what exactly I have to do in order to jump and make a half a rotation and then land on my left toe pick. And if anyone has a video of a half flip, or wants to videotape themselves doing one for me, that would be really really helpful too. :frus:

[froggy]

here is how i was taught (assuming CCW), gliding forward pick with right toe, do a LFO3, while keeping the right foot off but close to the ice, really bend that left knee and reach all the way back with your right foot, your right arm should be back and left arm in front with your back straight and looking ahead, pick in the ice with your right toe, left foot on a back outside edge should glide back, using the right foot like a pole vault spring up on your left foot while turning your upper body and hips CCW, you are now forward tap down on left toe and then glide onto right which usually to me is a right forward inside edge. I really hope this helps. the half rotation just happens like in a waltz you don't really have to think about it much. btw you can also enter it by doing a mohawk entrance.

[doubletoe]

1- Do a LFO 3-turn and make sure it's as straight as possible, not round.
2- Bend your left knee deeply and reach back with your right foot, keeping your left arm in front of you and your right arm and shoulder back.
3- Pick and pull yourself back with your right foot, and as you leave the ice, turn just 1/2 turn to your left and reach out with a pointed left toe.
4- Your left arm is still in front and your right arm is still in back, but now your left arm is in the direction of travel.
5- Your left toepick goes into the ice facing forward, so you have to point it hard. It's like a bunny hop on the opposite foot, where you just use it to immediately push off onto a right forward edge and glide.

[xofivebyfive]

Ugh I hate bunny hops.. Haha. They're evil. Okay so I think my issue is jumping off the left toepick and then turning.. I don't think I'm springing up and using the toepick to push up.. I think I might just be trying to jump and spin around.. which doesn't work. I'll try out your suggestions when I go skating tomorrow and let you know if they helped at all. Thanks so much both of you :bow:

[doubletoe]

But you are actually jumping off the right toepick, turning and then landing on the left toepick. ;)

[xofivebyfive]

Well there you go. That's my problem. :lol:

[xofivebyfive]

But wait a second..so you pull your body back with the right toepick and jump while standing on the toepick kind of? How the heck do you do that? Or am I just not grasping the concept? Haha..

[froggy]

But wait a second..so you pull your body back with the right toepick and jump while standing on the toepick kind of? How the heck do you do that? Or am I just not grasping the concept? Haha..


your right toe pick is acting like a vault which helps you spring up on your left foot, your weight then transfers onto the left toe where you pick the ice landing forward and then glide onto the right.

just to get an idea sort of, of the concept off ice right now do this on your kitchen or hardwood floor with socks on:

1. left knee deeply bent, right leg streched back
2. with you weight on your right foot, foot in "demi point" (think toe pick), slide/pull your left leg to your right foot
3. jump UP on your left while making a 1/2 turn ccw
4. land forward on your left foot just with your toes (think toe pick) then onto your right foot

i hope i didnt make you more confused, if so i'm sorry, im too great on explaining things.

good luck!

[xofivebyfive]

No that helps a lot actually. Thanks :D

[gt20001]

here is how i was taught (assuming CCW), gliding forward pick with right toe, do a LFO3, while keeping the right foot off but close to the ice, really bend that left knee and reach all the way back with your right foot, your right arm should be back and left arm in front with your back straight and looking ahead, pick in the ice with your right toe, left foot on a back outside edge should glide back, using the right foot like a pole vault spring up on your left foot while turning your upper body and hips CCW, you are now forward tap down on left toe and then glide onto right which usually to me is a right forward inside edge. I really hope this helps. the half rotation just happens like in a waltz you don't really have to think about it much. btw you can also enter it by doing a mohawk entrance.

I thought you glide on a left back inside edge not a outside edge

[doubletoe]

I thought you glide on a left back inside edge not a outside edge

Yes, that's true. If you are on a back outside edge, you'll end up doing a 1/2 lutz.

[doubletoe]

your right toe pick is acting like a vault which helps you spring up on your left foot, your weight then transfers onto the left toe where you pick the ice landing forward and then glide onto the right.

just to get an idea sort of, of the concept off ice right now do this on your kitchen or hardwood floor with socks on:

1. left knee deeply bent, right leg streched back
2. with you weight on your right foot, foot in "demi point" (think toe pick), slide/pull your left leg to your right foot
3. jump UP on your left while making a 1/2 turn ccw
4. land forward on your left foot just with your toes (think toe pick) then onto your right foot


You need to think of jumping up off your right toepick, but in reality, you're sort of jumping off of both feet. That's because by the time you leave the ice, you have pulled yourself back with your right toepick so that your left foot has slid backward on the ice and is now next to your picking foot.

[NickiT]

I must admit I never see the point of half jumps. Probably because we don't really do them here in the UK, but just learn the full jump. I remember playing about with half loops but never really liked the feeling of them. I much prefer doing the whole jump properly!

Nicki

[SkatingOnClouds]

It seems there are two different ways to do half flips these days.

Back when I learned them, I was taught to pick with the right foot, land on the left pick and then onto the right flat of blade.
These days you're taught to land on the same pick as you take off with, at least that's how they do it here.

I am also confused about the technique of the actual jumping part of it. I was taught to reach back and pull myself with the picking foot, as someone described above. I was also told not to bend the picking leg as that would reduce the height and spring. Now I am told that I jump from the pick, and that I must bend the leg otherwise the jump won't happen.

Can anyone clear this up for me?

[Maineskate]

I've just finally gotten these babies figured out. It took me a long time to wrap my mind around the mechanics of "jumping or vaulting off a straight leg". I'm a dancer and always break things down to the individual muscle and joint level. What I finally realized was that the first toe pick--the vaulting one--is really only assisting and is only used for a fraction of a second.

You pick and push off the bent knee almost simultaneously.
I've been taught that the picking leg must be straight for proper technique.

It helps tremendously if you remember to turn your toe pick "IN" (duck footed) before you take off. But I have a natural turnout, so that might not help you.

Also, you're only on the landing toe pick for a fraction of a second before you glide on the other foot. It, too, is just a "helper" to get you back down on the ice.

I was breaking it all down so much in my head and trying to think it through while I did it...doesn't work. The jump happens too fast for that. Practice it on the floor first so you get the basic feel.

The rhythm I think in my head is "pick-UP-pick-DOWN"--that is after the entrance, of course.

Hope this helps. I'm a CW jumper, so that's why I didn't use lefts or rights in my descriptions.

Good Luck!
Julie

[VegasGirl]

It seems there are two different ways to do half flips these days.

Back when I learned them, I was taught to pick with the right foot, land on the left pick and then onto the right flat of blade.
These days you're taught to land on the same pick as you take off with, at least that's how they do it here.

Hm, no, all the instrustions I've heard or seen say the same thing... take off on one land on the other foot... same as you were taught.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip_jump

The flip jump (usually just flip) is a jump in figure skating which takes off a backward inside edge with a toe pick assist, and lands on the backward outside edge of the opposite foot.

[doubletoe]

It seems there are two different ways to do half flips these days.

I am also confused about the technique of the actual jumping part of it. I was taught to reach back and pull myself with the picking foot, as someone described above. I was also told not to bend the picking leg as that would reduce the height and spring. Now I am told that I jump from the pick, and that I must bend the leg otherwise the jump won't happen.

Can anyone clear this up for me?

Both of the things you've been told are true. Your picking leg must be locked out completely straight, with toe pointed and facing straight down to the ice when you pick. BUT once you've picked, you stay down low to the ice and pull yourself back and up with the picking toe. That is impossible to do without bending your knee (try it!). It just happens so fast that you don't realize you're doing it. But it's impossible to jump off of a straight leg, so your knees will always be bent just before you actually spring up off the ice.

[Isk8NYC]

If it's any consolation, you're not alone. I have a few students who mix up the landings of the half-flip and the ballet jump, too. Just keep practicing it with walkthroughs, until you gain the muscle memory you need to get it straight. You know the right way to land, you just need to do it right!

I use the three-turn entrance, but others use a RFI mohawk entrance to enter the jump. Different strokes for different folks, but the mohawk helps "straighten" the jump and keep skaters from cheating the entrance.

As for the picking-in: practice doing non-rotational jumps, ie. pick in, jump straight up without turning, then land backwards. (Two footed is fine, but double your practice and work on the one-foot waltz jump landing.) This will help build your picking skills without being distracted by the forward landing. (BTW, I was taught/teach "pick and pull" - pick in with a straight leg and draw a bent knee up to the other foot for takeoff. It changes your center of balance and shift your weight easier, resulting in a higher jump.)

I must admit I never see the point of half jumps. Probably because we don't really do them here in the UK, but just learn the full jump. I remember playing about with half loops but never really liked the feeling of them. I much prefer doing the whole jump properly! Nicki Half loops are a different beast because they land backward. The half flip has some redeeming qualities: it teaches the skater how to save themself if they blow a whole jump, it introduces the jump entry without worrying about rotation (most people can turn halfway without much effort.) and finally, it is the foundation for the Split and Stag jumps.

[gt20001]

It seems there are two different ways to do half flips these days.

Back when I learned them, I was taught to pick with the right foot, land on the left pick and then onto the right flat of blade.
These days you're taught to land on the same pick as you take off with, at least that's how they do it here.

I am also confused about the technique of the actual jumping part of it. I was taught to reach back and pull myself with the picking foot, as someone described above. I was also told not to bend the picking leg as that would reduce the height and spring. Now I am told that I jump from the pick, and that I must bend the leg otherwise the jump won't happen.

Can anyone clear this up for me?

You dont jump and land on the same toe pick the way you described it the first time is the right way pick with the right and land on the left i believe the jump you are thinking of is the half toe wally or ballet jump these two jumps take off and land on the same toe pick. And as far as i was told you dont bend the picking leg you want to keep it straight but you do want to bend the skating leg to help you get a better jump.

[beachbabe]

I just wanna reccomend that you don't work on a half flip too much because it can get you in a comfort zone.

When i first started learning a full flip I had gotten so used to doing a half flip, it was in my muscle memory that i would back out a lot or just automatically do a half flip. You don't wanna get yourself in that habit for too long or it will hinder your learning of a full flip. So try not to over-work on it.

I know it took me a while to get over the habit of doing a half flip when i intended to do a full one. I'm learning the double flip now and I get the same thing with always tryting to do a single flip because i'm used to it.


I guess this type of muscle memory is inevitable but I just wanted to share my experience anyways

[froggy]

here is how i was taught (assuming CCW), gliding forward pick with right toe, do a LFO3, while keeping the right foot off but close to the ice, really bend that left knee and reach all the way back with your right foot, your right arm should be back and left arm in front with your back straight and looking ahead, pick in the ice with your right toe, left foot on a back outside edge should glide back, using the right foot like a pole vault spring up on your left foot while turning your upper body and hips CCW, you are now forward tap down on left toe and then glide onto right which usually to me is a right forward inside edge. I really hope this helps. the half rotation just happens like in a waltz you don't really have to think about it much. btw you can also enter it by doing a mohawk entrance.


oops thanks for catching my mistake upon entering your left goot should be on a left INSIDE edge (half lutz for outside).

there is a point to half jumps, 1/2 flips are helpful if you would like to do splits or stag jumps..not that I'm doing those but they both come from 1/2 flips.

[montanarose]

Interesting that so many folks here seem to have learned to do the half-flip entry from LFO3: my coach teaches it with a mohawk (RFI to LBI) entry. In either case, you wind up on the same LBI edge prior to the jump, so I wonder what the difference is, other than personal preference. Maybe because it's easier to straighten out a mohawk than a three?

Ellen

[SkatingOnClouds]

Interesting that so many folks here seem to have learned to do the half-flip entry from LFO3: my coach teaches it with a mohawk (RFI to LBI) entry. In either case, you wind up on the same LBI edge prior to the jump, so I wonder what the difference is, other than personal preference. Maybe because it's easier to straighten out a mohawk than a three?

Ellen
Yeah, that's why my coach had me doing it from the mohawk.

I am still intrigued with the different advice about flip technique. When I told someone about the straight leg pick approach, pulling your free leg to it, I was told that was completely wrong, that the leg had to be bent as it picks, and that you have to linger on the pick rather than it being a fleeting thing.

Having now tried full flips from both approaches I can say that I don't fall over doing it the way I'm being taught now, but it doesn't feel like a flip to me. I will persevere, and see if this changes into more of a flip feeling, because I know my coach really researches technique, and wouldn't be saying this without good reason.

[doubletoe]

Yeah, that's why my coach had me doing it from the mohawk.

I am still intrigued with the different advice about flip technique. When I told someone about the straight leg pick approach, pulling your free leg to it, I was told that was completely wrong, that the leg had to be bent as it picks, and that you have to linger on the pick rather than it being a fleeting thing.

Having now tried full flips from both approaches I can say that I don't fall over doing it the way I'm being taught now, but it doesn't feel like a flip to me. I will persevere, and see if this changes into more of a flip feeling, because I know my coach really researches technique, and wouldn't be saying this without good reason.

You definitely have to pick with a straight leg and bend it only after the pick is in the ice. That's because a bent picking leg will cause you to pick closer to the skating foot, and you can only get away with picking close to the skating foot if you are going into it with practically no speed. And even if you manage to pick and get around, you'll still find that you have trouble getting any power on the jump if you pick this way. If you actually have a little speed going into the jump, the bent leg pick absolutely won't work at all, since your skating foot will catch up to your picking foot too soon and ruin your takeoff timing. Try it and you'll see what I mean.
BTW, now that I think of it, I learned the 1/2 flip from a mohawk, too. It's easier to keep from over-rotating that way. The 1/2 flip later evolved into a split jump, which I also do from a mohawk.

[froggy]

[QUOTE=doubletoe]You definitely have to pick with a straight leg and bend it only after the pick is in the ice. That's because a bent picking leg will cause you to pick closer to the skating foot, and you can only get away with picking close to the skating foot if you are going into it with practically no speed. ..


how true that is! it was only after my coach videotaped me doing the 1/2 flip that I then believed her that I was bending my knee of the leg I was going to pick in the ice, not only did the jump not work correctly it looked horrendous on video, sort of like a horse kicking his foot into the ground! :lol: we all learn difft as much as she told me i was bending my knee I didnt feel it, I needed to 'see' it to make a change. i found keeping the leg close to the ice helps me keep a straight leg prior to picking.

[doubletoe]

Exactly. I always think of keeping my toepick just a few inches above the ice as I reach back to pick (and of course, pointed directly down toward the ice, no turnout in the foot). It's a very common mistake to lift the foot just before picking, and that gives you a bent knee and also makes you bang the ice unnecessarily hard with the toepick. So you feel like you have power because you're picking so hard, but you pick too close to the picking foot you don't get a good grip in the ice and you end up trying to jump up without pulling yourself back with the pick first. There's a lot of wasted energy for the amount of jump you get.

[SkatingOnClouds]

Oh boy. Doubletoe, everything you are saying matches what I was taught
20 years ago and matches my thinking about flips & 1/2 flips.

You are right about speed into the jump, I sure can go heaps faster with a flat mohawk entry and a real reach back with a straight leg. Unfortunately I have developed some faults. To avoid that common fault of getting upright before picking which results in not picking far enough back, I have developed a forward lean which throws my rotation off, and I tend to jump from the non-picking leg.

There is no doubt I am landing more often using the newer technique, but it doesn't feel like a flip to me. Nor does the 1/2 flip, it feels more like a ballet jump sort of thing, landing on the same toe as picking. Apparently it is taught that way to help people get used to landing on the right foot for the landing of the full flip. I just can't imagine getting any speed or height into the jump this way though, it is a little hop, not the powerful big jump I used to do.

I am skating this morning and hope to get a chance to focus on the two different techniques, see what I can figure out. I'll let you know what I learn later.

[doubletoe]

Well, although I've never tried it myself, I can definitely see the point of doing the version where you take off and land on the same toe, since it trains you to stay over your landing side in the air. And yes, leaning forward as you reach back to pick makes it really hard to get enough weight onto your picking toe and get any leverage. I try to imagine a huge magnetor vacuum cleaner is pulling me back, so that my head and back/shoulders pull back as well!

[doubletoe]

I try to imagine a huge magnetor vacuum cleaner is pulling me back, so that my head and back/shoulders pull back as well!

Oops, not a new type of vacuum cleaner. I meant "magnet or vacuum cleaner" LOL!

[mikawendy]

Exactly. I always think of keeping my toepick just a few inches above the ice as I reach back to pick (and of course, pointed directly down toward the ice, no turnout in the foot). It's a very common mistake to lift the foot just before picking, and that gives you a bent knee and also makes you bang the ice unnecessarily hard with the toepick. So you feel like you have power because you're picking so hard, but you pick too close to the picking foot you don't get a good grip in the ice and you end up trying to jump up without pulling yourself back with the pick first. There's a lot of wasted energy for the amount of jump you get.

Thank you for explaining that so clearly! I've been having trouble with that with my flips (and saw *just* how bad it was on a recent video). The pulling back as I pick has been a problem, not so much for the flip (because I can land and rotate it most of the time even if I'm not pulling back well) but with working on the 1/2 lutz and the lutz, that's definitely fouling me up.

[SkatingOnClouds]

I am skating this morning and hope to get a chance to focus on the two different techniques, see what I can figure out. I'll let you know what I learn later.

Umm what I learned today is that when you have a hip injury that keeps getting worse instead of better, and you are at Aussie Skate session, that it is completely unrealistic to attempt to compare different jumping techniques.

Looks like I could be out of action for a week or 2 or more8O until I fix this hip.

[russiet]

... I can definitely see the point of doing the version where you take off and land on the same toe, since it trains you to stay over your landing side in the air. ...

That's what I thought, too. I tried landing both ways, and I think it adds to one's versatility to be able to do so.

For the sake of argument, my coach tells me that a true 1/2 flip (we're talking semantics here) takes off & lands on opposite toes. If you are to be judged, make sure you do it that way.

Jon

[xofivebyfive]

That's what I thought, too. I tried landing both ways, and I think it adds to one's versatility to be able to do so.

For the sake of argument, my coach tells me that a true 1/2 flip (we're talking semantics here) takes off & lands on opposite toes. If you are to be judged, make sure you do it that way.

Jon
So the takeoff foot..would that be the one that's not being used to pick?

[NCSkater02]

I'm currently working on half flip--it's probably my biggest, best, and most consistant jump for now. I first learned it from the mohawk entry. My coach taught me the 3-turn entry just before I broke my ankle. I immediately liked it better, but lost height with changing the entry. It is coming back now. She just recently taught me to land them on the same foot I pick with. I dread to think that this means she's going to push for me to start a full rotation.

[russiet]

So the takeoff foot..would that be the one that's not being used to pick?

Assuming CCW;

Right foot picks, rotate 1/2 turn, left foot taps pick and glide out on RFI.

A little like a reverse mazurka, at least in my mind.

Jon

[SkatingOnClouds]

She just recently taught me to land them on the same foot I pick with. I dread to think that this means she's going to push for me to start a full rotation.

Trust me, you are going to LOVE the full flip!

[doubletoe]

Thank you for explaining that so clearly! I've been having trouble with that with my flips (and saw *just* how bad it was on a recent video). The pulling back as I pick has been a problem, not so much for the flip (because I can land and rotate it most of the time even if I'm not pulling back well) but with working on the 1/2 lutz and the lutz, that's definitely fouling me up.

Yes, it becomes even more crucial on the lutz takeoff. I always find that it helps to think that I'm being pulled back by a big magnet or suction/vacuum cleaner. It makes me pull my back and shoulders back instead of leaning forward, and that helps me get my weight on the picking toe once the pick goes into the ice. If your torso is leaning even a little bit forward when you reach back to pick (and that's what it will do if you are subconsciously afraid of the jump), then your weight is on your front foot and there's just no way to get enough weight onto the picking foot. The result is that you get a weak pick and you have nothing to pull yourself back and up with. The pick may even slip out from under you.

[NCSkater02]

Trust me, you are going to LOVE the full flip!

Just before she changed to where I land same foot, I was starting to rotate just a little past half. Not much, but enough to get excited about.

I can't wait to get my salchow consistant--it feels like flying.

[Casey]

For the sake of argument, my coach tells me that a true 1/2 flip (we're talking semantics here) takes off & lands on opposite toes. If you are to be judged, make sure you do it that way.
That's the only way I've seen it done, ever...

[Casey]

Just before she changed to where I land same foot, I was starting to rotate just a little past half. Not much, but enough to get excited about.

I can't wait to get my salchow consistant--it feels like flying.
The flip is called the toe salchow in some parts of the world...for good reason. The jumps are very similar. Though obviously one has a toe assist and feels overall considerably different, they're similar enough that you can set up for either with the other's method, etc. Just be careful about doing cheated flips that are really salchows with a bit of a toe tap in the middle - I used to do that. :P

The flip is my favorite jump. I suspect I will like the lutz more if I can ever get the darn thing again (have landed a good one only once) simply because the half lutz is absolutely delightful.

[SkatingOnClouds]

Salchows? Eeew! That is one jump I have just never figured out. I do them, of course, but can't say I have ever liked them.

Lutzes I haven't tried since my return to skating. They used to scare me. I'm on of those who did them from a long back outside edge, and waited until the barrier was so close that I had to decide whether to jump or abort. I am determined to get these better this time around.

Flips have always been my favourite jump. Before that it was 1/2 flips, but toe-loops will always have a special place for me.

[Casey]

Flips have always been my favourite jump. Before that it was 1/2 flips, but toe-loops will always have a special place for me.
Toe loops? Eeew! That is one jump I have just never figured out!! I'm sure my technique is awful on them or something because they just don't feel right. At all. I can imagine doing any double except for a double toe. :P

[NCSkater02]

but toe-loops will always have a special place for me.

I'm with Casey here--toe loops are my least favorite for right now. I'll have to wait for a full decision until I actually learn loop and axel.

I enjoy my lutz too--it's just not as good as my flip, but at least it is reasonably consistant and on the outside edge.

[flippet]

The flip is called the toe salchow in some parts of the world...for good reason. The jumps are very similar. Though obviously one has a toe assist and feels overall considerably different, they're similar enough that you can set up for either with the other's method, etc. Just be careful about doing cheated flips that are really salchows with a bit of a toe tap in the middle - I used to do that. :P

Yup. :oops: You can see it on the tracings--the take-off edge will curve around behind the pick mark. I was just learning the flip (teaching myself, really), and this was what I was doing. It's probably a good thing I stopped skating shortly after that, otherwise I'd have ingrained a nasty little habit! My salchow was my best jump, and it just felt weird to not launch the knee up and around as you do with that.

I really enjoyed half-flips, but after reading this thread, I'm sure that I was probably bending the knee and 'dropping' the pick too much. If I ever get back to skating, I hope I'll remember that, and maybe avoid re-learning the bad habit this time around!

[xofivebyfive]

Man I'm posting a lot of threads this week. So, apparently I'm jumping around and not up, and that's not good. So, I have a couple of questions. Do you jump entirely off of the right toepick, or do you use both feet? And, how can I focus on jumping up, instead of trying to jump around to get the rotation? I used to really like this jump. That's what tendonitis will do for you.