Governing Council News! [Archive]

Ice T

05-06-2006, 08:48 PM

Hi Gang,

Since I live in Tampa, I drove up and dropped in for a few hours this afternoon. I was able to pick up a copy of the handout showing what had passed, as well as observe the action this afternoon. I'm probably opening up a can of worms by posting what I know, and I really hope I get this right, but here goes....

Yes, the Championship Pairs event passed and will begin for 2007 adult sectional events.

Yes, the well-balanced program requirements have passed. I can't find the original Addendum A that was posted on the USFS site to compare, so here is what my paper says that I picked up today, as follows:

Pairs: For Pairs, there are requirements for championship events, and then there is a separate list for both masters and gold (masters and gold now have the same requirements with a max time of 3:40 for both). I have not read the two to compare to see if champ and masters/gold are the same requirements (sorry, but it's lengthy). Silver and Bronze pairs passed as proposed.

Masters Singles: I'm not sure I'm reading it right, since I was not there for the discussion and the information on the page is not clear to me, but it appears that all the masters levels will now have the same requirements and the max time for all is now 3:40.

For Gold and below, the changes went through as proposed, with the exception that the Silver spins will be a maximum of 3 spins (instead of the proposed 2).

I'm sorry Bronze skaters, but your spins will be a maximum of 2. A movement was made by an adult skater today to reopen the issue for discussion and revision to make it 3 spins, but it was voted upon and rejected by the convention.

Dance: There was a whole two pages on dance, including the well-balanced requirements. I don't see any strike throughs, which would indicate that it passed as proposed. The 2206-07 compulsory dances for all levels/events was also posted.

Hope this helps! Please don't get mad at me if I made any mistakes. I'm just interpreting the papers and the discussions that I heard today.

TimDavidSkate

05-06-2006, 09:15 PM

praying and hoping for a 2 spin max for Silver level:halo:

NoVa Sk8r

05-06-2006, 10:03 PM

mskater

05-06-2006, 10:11 PM

A list of updates from yesterday and today:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/event_story.asp?id=34313

Code of Points was approved to be used for Adult Nats for gold level and above (singles pairs, and dance).

Ok, so now would be a good time for me to start looking over the code of points - do you have a link NoVa??

NoVa Sk8r

05-06-2006, 10:12 PM

Ok, so now would be a good time for me to start looking over the code of points - do you have a link NoVa??
http://www.usfigureskating.org/New_Judging.asp?id=280

Debbie S

05-06-2006, 10:21 PM

I'm sorry Bronze skaters, but your spins will be a maximum of 2. Hey, don't apologize - I'm not that disappointed. :) But was there any discussion or decision about modifying the test requirements? If 2 spins is the max in comp, then it makes sense to adjust the test requirements accordingly.

Maybe the requirement could be to choose 2 of the 3 spins that are currently required? I know some people love the backspin, but I'm not one of them. ;) :halo:

And of course, there's the matter of what to do about Pre-Bronze. I guess they forgot that Pre-Bronze requirements currently allow for a max of 3 spins (min of 2). Unless that changes, Pre-Bronze skaters will be able to do more spins than Bronze skaters. Hey, there's a reason to add Pre-Bronze to AN! (OK, that was a joke, please let's not start that debate here!)

manleywoman

05-07-2006, 12:45 AM

Masters Singles: I'm not sure I'm reading it right, since I was not there for the discussion and the information on the page is not clear to me, but it appears that all the masters levels will now have the same requirements and the max time for all is now 3:40.
Crap. I made my program 4:04 this year because they made the max 4:10. Now I have to cut it? Blegh.

jazzpants

05-07-2006, 01:45 AM

I'm sorry Bronze skaters, but your spins will be a maximum of 2. A movement was made by an adult skater today to reopen the issue for discussion and revision to make it 3 spins, but it was voted upon and rejected by the convention.DRATS!!! :x This skater is not happy! I think now to be competitive, I'll have to work on spin combos and I'm not quite at that point yet. :roll: Of course, I already knew this was going to happened before the GC meeting. I have wrote to Tony about this about a week before the GC meeting and he told me of the change on the Silver FS spin requirements but not the Bronze FS spin requirements.

*sigh* :roll: Time to get my coaches to work me on camel-sit and maybe start on sit-backsit. (I need to start on sit-backsit anyway. I'm getting to that point anyway...) and this is in addition to work on whatever jumps I don't have consistently already. (Thank goodness there is a jump requirement as well, so I don't have to go thru a slew of jump sequences to be competitive.) :twisted:

lovepairs

05-07-2006, 07:45 AM

Terri C

05-07-2006, 07:57 AM

I'm sorry Bronze skaters, but your spins will be a maximum of 2. A movement was made by an adult skater today to reopen the issue for discussion and revision to make it 3 spins, but it was voted upon and rejected by the convention.

Whoever that skater was for motioning to reopen the issue and revision... thanks for trying!
So, what's the incentive now to move from Pre- Bronze to Bronze, when there's spin and jump limitations in Bronze?? Never mind going to AN as a incentive... the fact that my program may have to be revised if I move up is a incentive for me to stay put! Comments, anyone??

phoenix

05-07-2006, 08:12 AM

Can anybody add to what the "2 pages of dance stuff" entailed? Or know where I can find it? All I've heard is that the lower levels will now do only 2 patterns to test.

lovepairs

05-07-2006, 08:40 AM

All of the dances are listed on a "compulsory" link at the bottom of this page:

http://www.usfigureskating.org/event_story.asp?id=34313

Ice T

05-07-2006, 08:44 AM

IceT,

In the documents that you were able to take away with you, was there any mention about how the Gold teams qualify for the Championship event? For instance, must both skaters in the team have passed Gold Pairs, Gold Free, or Juvenille? Or, can one team member having passed the above drag their partner up, from let's say Silver Pairs, or Silver Free? There was a lot of concern about this prior to the GC, and I'm wondering what they did with it.

Thanks for taking another look!

It says:
Qualifications will consist of the following:
* As set forth by the exisiting Adult Masters pair requirements (rule 4110) and Adult Gold pair requirements (rule 4120)
*Well balance program requirements as below.

I hope that is what you are looking for.

dcden

05-07-2006, 08:55 AM

So, what's the incentive now to move from Pre- Bronze to Bronze, when there's spin and jump limitations in Bronze?? Never mind going to AN as a incentive... the fact that my program may have to be revised if I move up is a incentive for me to stay put! Comments, anyone??

Can't say much except I agree that this is now still a problem with the discrepancy of # of spins from PB to Br. to Silver. IMO it should have just stayed 3 spins for Brz & Silver, and 2 or 3 for PB. I'm glad they had the sense to give Silver 3 spins.

Also I agree with Debbie S... was anyone thinking of the test requirements when writing up this proposal?

phoenix

05-07-2006, 09:08 AM

All of the dances are listed on a "compulsory" link at the bottom of this page:

http://www.usfigureskating.org/event_story.asp?id=34313

All that lists is the compulsory dances, not any rule changes.

Ice T

05-07-2006, 09:35 AM

Also I agree with Debbie S... was anyone thinking of the test requirements when writing up this proposal?

Yes, the testing requirements for the 3 spins at Bronze were specifically mentioned in the discussion as the basis of the adult skater's request for the reopening of the issue, but the council did not agree and would not make the change.

Terri C

05-07-2006, 10:00 AM

Also I agree with Debbie S... was anyone thinking of the test requirements when writing up this proposal?

Obviously not!!!!

Csk8er

05-07-2006, 12:06 PM

Crap. I made my program 4:04 this year because they made the max 4:10. Now I have to cut it? Blegh.

I did also. Since I didn't compete the last 2 ANs, I decided to add on 35 seconds to my program and had it rechoregraphed (because of the increase time change approved last year when they increased the time limit for Masters Senior & Championship to 4:10). Oh well, I will now have to recut the music again!

MANLEYWOMAN, one delegate acutally tried to amend the time limit to 4:10, but there was much oppposition to this because of the bonus points received after the half way point for IJS and the possible unfair advantage a Senior level skater may have. I was quite surprised they made the time limit the same for all of the Masters levels (Novice, Junior, and Senior). If there is a skater moving up from Gold to Masters Novice, that additional minute from 2:40 to 3:40 maximum is quite a jump in time. It will be interesting to see how this impacts the Masters Novice level.

Joan

05-07-2006, 01:51 PM

DRATS!!! :x This skater is not happy! I think now to be competitive, I'll have to work on spin combos and I'm not quite at that point yet. :roll: Of course, I already knew this was going to happened before the GC meeting. I have wrote to Tony about this about a week before the GC meeting and he told me of the change on the Silver FS spin requirements but not the Bronze FS spin requirements.

*sigh* :roll: Time to get my coaches to work me on camel-sit and maybe start on sit-backsit. (I need to start on sit-backsit anyway. I'm getting to that point anyway...) and this is in addition to work on whatever jumps I don't have consistently already. (Thank goodness there is a jump requirement as well, so I don't have to go thru a slew of jump sequences to be competitive.) :twisted:

So, does a combo spin count as 1 spin or does it count as two (or whatever the number of different spins in the combo is)? It sounds like your interpretation is that a combo spin is one spin, but I would like to make sure of that. Does anyone know?

Joan

05-07-2006, 01:59 PM

Did they add an Adult track for dance tests below pre-Silver? It already existed for pre-silver and above, and there was a GC proposal to include the lower passing average for adults for Bronze and below. I could use that help :roll:

vesperholly

05-07-2006, 02:03 PM

So, does a combo spin count as 1 spin or does it count as two (or whatever the number of different spins in the combo is)? It sounds like your interpretation is that a combo spin is one spin, but I would like to make sure of that. Does anyone know?
A combination spin is one spin.

Madame Saccoche

05-07-2006, 03:23 PM

When will they begin using the new Code of Points system for for adult competitions?

It was supposed to be used for the Canadian adult nationals this year but ended up being delayed until next year because it was such a huge undertaking. I can only imagine that it is an even huger undertaking in the US and will take some time. Hopefully the "Well-ballanced programe requirements" and levels of difficulty will be finalized and released soon ( as promised by Skate canada) so we can strt working on our new programmes.

lovepairs

05-07-2006, 04:57 PM

Sorry, Phoenix, I guess we are just getting drips and drabs of information, and will have to wait for the GC to post everything on the USFSA website.

IceT,

Thanks, but I'll have to wait for the PDFs to come out on USFSA, because I don't have a rule book that refers to the items that you had mentioned for the pairs qualifications.

Thanks guys...it will all come out soon enough. As soon as it comes out, I'm going to try to make a spot on the Adult Pairs Website in the "News" section, where the pairs can go for all of this new information pertaining to pairs skaters.

Ice T

05-07-2006, 05:36 PM

Sorry, but there are two pages of stuff on dance, plus the page listing all the 06-07 compulsory dances in each event at each level. The best way I can summarize is to say that there's a section for Championship Adult Dance which has stuff about the selection of compulsory dances, and stuff on the original dance, including required and optional elements. Then there is a section on Adult Gold Dance with stuff on the selection of compulsory dances and the original dance. Then each level from Pre-Gold down to Pre-Bronze and Adult Centennial is listed with the info on selection of compulsory dances, which only says how the initial and final round dances will rotate for seasons 06-07 and 07-08.

Is there something specific you are looking for? Let me know and I'll see if I can find it. Hope this helps a little bit.

Ice T

05-07-2006, 05:45 PM

Can anybody add to what the "2 pages of dance stuff" entailed? Or know where I can find it? All I've heard is that the lower levels will now do only 2 patterns to test.

OK - I see this now. It's deep in the 5 bazillon other pages of dance stuff that was applicable to standard and adult. UGH!

TR 43.05 (A)(1) Yes, on the sheet I have, it says this passed to now require only 2 patters for Dutch Waltz, Canasta Tango, Rhythm Blues, Cha Cha, Fiesta Tango, Willow Waltz, Hickory Hoedown and Ten Fox.

Glad I saw this as I hope to test my Fiesta this summer.

Just one more caveat in all of this: As discussion was held, some on the fly changes were made to the documents showing up on the big screen. So anything done like that after the printing of the pages they had on Saturday, would not be on my papers. Hopefully early this week they will post all the final stuff.

coskater64

05-07-2006, 08:02 PM

They aligned the passing marks of the dances w/ the levels and the made the adult passing standard lower all the way down to Pre bronze.

PB s=2.5 a=2.4 m=2.3
Br s=2.7 a=2.6 m=2.4
PS s=3.0 a=2.8 m=2.6
s s=3.5 a=3.2 m=2.8
pg s=4.0 a=3.7 m=3.2
g s=4.5 a=4.2 m=3.7

2 patterns for the DW, CT, RB, CC, FT, WW, HH, TF

IJS for Gold and Masters.

All masters 3.40 time limit, 7 jumps, 4 spins, max one step sequence.
Of course time is max so I will stick w/ about 3.20 for this year.

Gold jump limit went through 2s, 2t, 2lp
silver 5 jumps, 3 spins
bronze 4 jumps 2 spins

The point was made that test standards and competition standards are different: example axel @ silver ladies not on test. Doubles in gold, not on test. If you want you can do more spins w/ no penalty BUT they will not count, they will count the first two spins in bronze and that's it.

Debbie S

05-07-2006, 09:38 PM

The point was made that test standards and competition standards are different: example axel @ silver ladies not on test. Doubles in gold, not on test. Well, that's true, but these examples are about what makes you competitive at those levels. As is often said, meeting the test requirements allows you to skate at a certain level, but it doesn't necessarily make you competitive. In this case, though, it's the reverse - the test requirement for Bronze is greater than what is allowed in competition. That just seems ridiculous, at least IMO.

Debbie S

05-08-2006, 09:45 AM

OK, here's another question (which may be answered whenever the USFSA officially announces all of the new rules on their website): When does this 2-spin max rule take effect? July 1, Sept 1, or some other date? I guess if a summer comp wants to go by next season's rules, it would be in effect there - and Wilmington is usually one of those comps. All the more reason to compete Pre-Bronze at Wilmington - how else am I supposed to practice doing my Bronze test program in front of judges in a pressure situation? I suppose if I decided to compete Bronze, I could take out my forward scratch spin at the end, which would leave just the sit and backspin, but then what would I do at the end of my program after my last jump, stand around and smile until the music stops? :roll:

Actually, I was going to compete Pre-Bronze anyway, b/c this comp seems to be attracting more Pre-Bronze than Bronze skaters, but this situation is what a lot of Pre-Bronzes are going to encounter at summer and fall comps around the country. And if you want to compete with your test program (for the experience) at a comp that doesn't offer Pre-Bronze FS, you're out of luck.

Sorry, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I'm really annoyed by this. It feels like the new program rules were hastily put together without considering all of the details and ramifications.

dcden

05-08-2006, 09:58 AM

All the more reason to compete Pre-Bronze at Wilmington - how else am I supposed to practice doing my Bronze test program in front of judges in a pressure situation? I suppose if I decided to compete Bronze, I could take out my forward scratch spin at the end, which would leave just the sit and backspin, but then what would I do at the end of my program after my last jump, stand around and smile until the music stops? :roll:

...And if you want to compete with your test program (for the experience) at a comp that doesn't offer Pre-Bronze FS, you're out of luck.

Sorry, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I'm really annoyed by this. It feels like the new program rules were hastily put together without considering all of the details and ramifications.

Not that this is much of a solution, but if you really wanted to practice your test program at a competition, you may want to just go for the final forward spin at the end and take the hit from the judges. I guess if you are forced to make a decision, you have to decide which is more important, your ranking at that competition or your development of test program experience. But agreed, this rule change was not well thought out and will almost certainly require subsequent revisions next year.

Terri C

05-08-2006, 10:16 AM

Actually, I was going to compete Pre-Bronze anyway, b/c this comp seems to be attracting more Pre-Bronze than Bronze skaters, but this situation is what a lot of Pre-Bronzes are going to encounter at summer and fall comps around the country. And if you want to compete with your test program (for the experience) at a comp that doesn't offer Pre-Bronze FS, you're out of luck.

Sorry, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I'm really annoyed by this. It feels like the new program rules were hastily put together without considering all of the details and ramifications.

And, like I posted yesterday, where is the incentive to move up now???

jenlyon60

05-08-2006, 10:16 AM

Unless rule changes are marked Urgent, they are effective on 1 September, which is the "as/of" date for the new rulebook.

Mel On Ice

05-08-2006, 11:07 AM

another thing to consider is whether or not that additional content will count as a deduction or as extra content. If you do a sit, then a camel spin, then a layback, will the sit and camel count as your two spins and the layback as connecting moves or will you be deducted for extra content? If you feel strongly about having 3 spins and aren't deducted, then do the 3rd spin, knowing it won't count as a spin when the judges give you your marks.

jazzpants

05-08-2006, 11:55 AM

My interpretation of how I read the rules on the third spin is that it would count as a transitional step to whatever element you have, meaning that it would probably not hurt, but it probably is extra time that you can't use towards other requirements in the well-balanced program for Bronze. Of course, to be competitive, you would have to up your ante on the spin requirements and really push for 3 rev for each spin position you're in... :frus:

And, like I posted yesterday, where is the incentive to move up now???Right! And at the rate I'm going, I'm probably not gonna compete for a year (at least) to do some major technical catch-up to be at least middle of the road in the Bronze competitive level. (I am middle of the road to pretty competitive now on the Pre-Bronze FS competitive level now...meaning "Jazzpants is tough to beat but can be beaten...and certainly isn't asked by the judges to consider moving up to Bronze FS. :lol: :P ")

Looks like I'm gonna be hanging on to that "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club card for a while. :roll: (It's okay though. I'm looking at my finances now after my house paint job and it's not looking too hopeful for AN 07 anyway. Those of you who own houses certainly know how much of a money pit home ownership can be. :frus:)

NoVa Sk8r

05-08-2006, 12:14 PM

The way the rules are now, there is a "0.2 Deduction for each extra or lacking element in the mark for Technical Elements."

I can't imagine a spin being marked as a transition element, unless it travels a lot!!! :P

For O'dorf, a clarification point reads:
"Any element done in excess of the maximum will not be counted.
The first time a required element is done it will be counted. For example, if there is 1 required step sequence, but the program contains two step sequences, only the first will be counted as the requirement. The second will be considered a transition move or as part of choreography."

Perhaps a similar rule will be adopted for USFS.

cecealias

05-08-2006, 12:41 PM

shoot me if you will, but it looks like the new bronze rules are saying

"We want to see skaters develop two quality spins with more than 3 revolutions instead of a bunch of rushed spins with 1-2 revolutions in each position"

I know it's a LOT harder to get a camel spin with a consistent 3 revolutions minimum, not to mention a combination spin with 3 revolutions in each position. When people are in the beginning stages of learning their spins, getting 3 revolutions is really hard, and takes quite a bit of work, unless you're naturally talented.

In general, it's easier for people to get those single jumps than spins, and by making 3 revolutions a requirement, EVERYONE's going to have to have better spins, even if their jumps are better.

jazzpants

05-08-2006, 01:03 PM

In general, it's easier for people to get those single jumps than spins, and by making 3 revolutions a requirement, EVERYONE's going to have to have better spins, even if their jumps are better.Forgive me for this, but I *thought* that the 3 revolutions requirement was already in place back in 2002 in the initial draft of the Well Balanced Program Requirement??? :P :twisted: (My understanding of the wording is "Spins must have a minimum of three (3) revolutions.")

Debbie S

05-08-2006, 01:29 PM

Forgive me for this, but I *thought* that the 3 revolutions requirement was already in place back in 2002 in the initial draft of the Well Balanced Program Requirement??? :P :twisted: (My understanding of the wording is "Spins must have a minimum of three (3) revolutions.")
Yep, that is the current rule. Actually, I think CoP lessens the current rule, b/c doesn't it say that for a spin position to receive credit, it must be held for 2 revs?

Also, do the new rules specify that the spins must be of a different nature? If not that could be a problem/issue at comps.

Another thing to think about - with the current well-balanced program requirements, the rules specify a minimum number of spins, whereas with the new requirements, there is a max, but no min. What's to keep someone from only doing 1 spin, and making it some super-complex combo spin? How would the judges compare that to skaters doing 2 spins that are not quite as complex as the single spin, but overall have as many or more positions or revs as the single spin? I'm of the belief that skaters doing more elements in their programs (b/c the more jump and spin elements you include, the more challenging your choreo is and the less time you have for crossovers and stroking between elements to pick up speed) should get more credit, but as the new rules are written, that may not happen.

daisies

05-08-2006, 01:51 PM

Hi everyone, I was there too and was one of the people who spoke against Masters being 4:10. I agree with it in principle, mainly because the Senior FS test is 4 minutes +/- 10 seconds, so an adult who wants to take that test would need a separate program. The beauty of the adult "maximum" times is that you can do anything under that time and not be penalized, so anyone working on, say, the Junior free skating test could do 3:30 and a skater at Novice could do 3 minutes, without penalty.

The problem with that under IJS is huge. The jump bonus comes in at the halfway point -- not the halfway point of each person's program, but the halfway point of the maximum time. If it were 4:10, the halfway point would be 2:05, and the Novice skater with a 3-minute program would be at a disadvantage. You could argue that each skater has the choice of making his/her program longer to be competitive, but that just isn't fair to the lower-level skaters.

The maker of the motion to up the time to 4:10 lost my support entirely when she brought up that a lot of Masters skaters also want to do standard track competitions, including collegiates, where the senior time is 4:10. I believe the adult skating committee's first priority should be accommodating skaters in ADULT competitions, not making it easier for them to cross from back and forth. JMHO!

I was quite surprised they made the time limit the same for all of the Masters levels (Novice, Junior, and Senior). If there is a skater moving up from Gold to Masters Novice, that additional minute from 2:40 to 3:40 maximum is quite a jump in time. It will be interesting to see how this impacts the Masters Novice level.

It was great seeing you there! The main reason all the Masters levels' time limits were made the same was due to everything I said above about the jump bonus and that it would be unfair to force some skaters to have to do two separate programs for open and Championship. If we kept Novice at 3:10 but then had Championship at 3:40 (or even 4:10), that Novice skater might need a separate 3:40 program for Championship in order to gain the same benefits of the jump bonus as someone in Masters Junior. We considered making the time maximum 3:10 for everybody, in order to match the ISU, but the committee voted otherwise.

As for Bronze and the spins, it seems to me that the 3rd spin will be penalized under 6.0 but just won't count under IJS. Honestly, I think the better fix -- rather than upping the spins to 3 -- is to take a look at the Bronze test and perhaps lower the test regulation to 2.

If anyone thinks all of this wasn't well thought out, you are entitled to your opinion, but I must respond that the committee worked extremely hard. Everything is a work in progress, and nothing is going to be perfect from the get-go. The standard track has the same growing pains with IJS and WBPs that we do.

Spreadeagle

05-08-2006, 02:10 PM

Sorry, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I'm really annoyed by this. It feels like the new program rules were hastily put together without considering all of the details and ramifications.
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this. After attending GC this year for the first time, one thing I really took away from it is how much time and effort each committee puts in. The Adult Committee chair, Tony Conte, emphasized this when the Bronze 2-spin limit was contested. The new requirements are in line with the IJS and that is the direction that everything in USFSA is headed.

It was pointed out at the meeting that it is the norm, rather than the exception, that the test requirements for a certain level are quite different from competition programs. Most skaters don't use their test program for competing, although it does seem like some of the adult skaters on this board do. I actually think it's fine to keep the Bronze test program as is, as having the 3 spins demonstrates your ability to do a variety of spin types. You have to do a forward upright, backspin, and sitspin. I think you should still be required to show that you can do ALL of these spins before you can pass the test. Yes, the forward 1 foot spin is also on pre-Bronze, but only 3 revs where on Bronze it's 4. I would be against changing the test requirements, but I definitely think it was best to limit the competition requirements to 2, which will force skaters to improve the quality of their spins.

dcden

05-08-2006, 02:23 PM

Honestly, I think the better fix -- rather than upping the spins to 3 -- is to take a look at the Bronze test and perhaps lower the test regulation to 2.

This doesn't sound too bad either. Maybe make the two test spins be the sit spin (to test a new spin position not covered on the PB test) and the back spin (always important). The forward upright spin is somewhat covered by the fact that many skaters finish the sit spin by standing up into an upright spin anyway. I'm not crazy about possibly eliminating the forward spin from the bronze test, but if you want to keep test & competition requirements consistent, this seems to be the way to go.

As a bonus, the Bronze test becomes slightly easier to pass, helping out the pre-bronzers, so everyone's happy! ;)

In any case, thanks to you and the rest of the Adult committee for your hard work on this proposal. Yes, we are all having to respond/react to the NJS, and even the standard track is experiencing growing pains and adjustments to the code post-Torino. We're getting there folks...

cecealias

05-08-2006, 02:31 PM

Another thing to think about - with the current well-balanced program requirements, the rules specify a minimum number of spins, whereas with the new requirements, there is a max, but no min. What's to keep someone from only doing 1 spin, and making it some super-complex combo spin? How would the judges compare that to skaters doing 2 spins that are not quite as complex as the single spin, but overall have as many or more positions or revs as the single spin? I'm of the belief that skaters doing more elements in their programs (b/c the more jump and spin elements you include, the more challenging your choreo is and the less time you have for crossovers and stroking between elements to pick up speed) should get more credit, but as the new rules are written, that may not happen.

Ah I am of the opposite belief - I think the more quality elements you do, the stronger the overall skating becomes. Yes it's not as much to do in a program so you might not think of it as being as challenging but i think skaters advance to a higher level faster by doing only a few quality elements.

It's much harder technically to do a complex spin with many revolutions than multiple single spins with fewer revolutions. For a complex spin you have to have a fast enough and centered enough spin to begin with in order to make a good transition to another position that can hold at least another 3 revolutions. And if you can increase the speed of the spin after a transition, it means you really have a higher degree of spinning skill under your belt than someone who does multiple simple spins with no transitions.

I would give a skater who does 1 well centered, fast complex spin much more credit than someone who does 4 simple spins with same quality.

dcden

05-08-2006, 02:36 PM

Another thought... if the rules stay as they are through the next few seasons, you may want to consider doing this: choreograph your test program so that two of your spins are back-to-back (e.g. sit spin, exit, power LFO 3 turn [for a ccw spinner], R over L back xovers to upright spin), then for a competition program use that same spot in the program to do a more complex combination spin. In other words, don't choreograph your test program so that the 3 spins are all at different points in the program, or it'll be too hard to change to a 2 spin program for competition. Just a thought.

Csk8er

05-08-2006, 04:01 PM

You could argue that each skater has the choice of making his/her program longer to be competitive, but that just isn't fair to the lower-level skaters.

I believe the skating committee's first priority should be accommodating skaters in competitions, not making it easier for them to cross from back and forth. JMHO!

The main reason all the Masters levels' time limits were made the same was due to everything I said above about the jump bonus and that it would be unfair to force some skaters to have to do two separate programs for open and Championship. If we kept Novice at 3:10 but then had Championship at 3:40 (or even 4:10), that Novice skater might need a separate 3:40 program for Championship in order to gain the same benefits of the jump bonus as someone in Masters Junior.

Everything is a work in progress, and nothing is going to be perfect from the get-go. The standard track has the same growing pains with IJS and WBPs that we do.

It was great seeing you in Orlando as well. You definitely made a valid point regarding the time limits with regards to the jump bonus under IJS which made me change my thinking (and my vote) about this whole thing.

I think we all have to realize that IJS is definitely a work in progress both from a skating and judging aspect. There will be growing pains like anything that is new...heck we went through this all before when they phased out figures and brought in moves in the field over 10 years ago. I think it will just take some time to get used to and embrace the change for what it is.

DAISIES since you are on the committee, what was the rationale to include a required combination jump as part of the maximum jump elements? Combination jumps are not required in the standard levels under IJS. I know when I spoke to Tony about this, he said that last year's well-balanced program requirements were used as a basis.

daisies

05-08-2006, 04:44 PM

DAISIES since you are on the committee, what was the rationale to include a required combination jump as part of the maximum jump elements? Combination jumps are not required in the standard levels under IJS. I know when I spoke to Tony about this, he said that last year's well-balanced program requirements were used as a basis.
I don't know for sure, but I would guess that is correct -- that it was basically trying to use the current WBPs and not veer too far from them.

The committee was presented with the WBP proposal as prepared by Tony and George Rossano, who's heavy into the IJS system and helping to create point values. But the combo issue was never brought up by the committee for discussion, so it seems no one had a problem with it.

IMO, the standard track should require a combo, but that's just me!

Debbie S

05-08-2006, 11:15 PM

As for Bronze and the spins, it seems to me that the 3rd spin will be penalized under 6.0 but just won't count under IJS. Honestly, I think the better fix -- rather than upping the spins to 3 -- is to take a look at the Bronze test and perhaps lower the test regulation to 2.But therein lies the problem - Bronze (and Silver) is not being judged under IJS, it is (presumably) judged under the 6.0 system, at least for the next few years. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason for changing the WBP requirements for Bronze and Silver was to bring them in line with the new WBP for Gold and Masters, which had to be changed to allow for judging under IJS. But if we don't follow the IJS standards, we will be penalized b/c we're judged under 6.0. If a Bronze skater does a program with 3 spins, the 3rd spin won't just not count, there will be a penalty. (and I'm not really that obsessed with spins and test programs, but I do see some significant problems with the new rules)

I'm not saying that the committee didn't work hard, but I do think it's valid to point out that certain issues were missed, namely the WBP for Pre-Bronze and the Bronze test requirements. Setting up a WBP system where skaters at one level can do more spins (and jumps, too, if you look at the way the PB WBP are worded) than skaters at a higher level is what changing the WBP for Bronze and Silver was supposed to avoid. It sounds like the committee discussed the test spins issue, but why wasn't it addressed one way or the other in the new rules?

Ah I am of the opposite belief - I think the more quality elements you do, the stronger the overall skating becomes. Yes it's not as much to do in a program so you might not think of it as being as challenging but i think skaters advance to a higher level faster by doing only a few quality elements.Well, I agree with you. The point that I was trying to make is what will be the new definition of quality now. I agree that a good combo spin should receive more credit than a good simple spin, but in many Bronze comps that I've seen, there seems to be a tradeoff between good simple spins and not-so-good combo spins. So under the system we'll be judged under (6.0 with IJS program requirements :?? ), what will receive more credit? I have always been told that it's important to do what you do well. It's better to do an easier spin of good quality (more revs, well-centered, good speed) than to do a harder spin of lower quality (fewer revs, traveling, not great positions - like a camel where your leg is not at hip level, etc.). My worry is that with the new WBP, more Bronze skaters will be doing combo spins (with or without changing feet) that are not of good quality but will get more credit than a simpler spin that's done very well. Since IJS only requires 2 revs per position to get credit (then again, we're not technically being judged under IJS so I guess we need 3 revs?) there's the potential to see lots of not-so-great combos b/c they will be rewarded more, but then that lessens the quality of the overall skating.

LoopLoop

05-09-2006, 08:33 AM

And, like I posted yesterday, where is the incentive to move up now???
For people who dislike spinning, I guess the new limit of two spins rather than three (in PB) would be an incentive to move to bronze! ;)

LoopLoop

05-09-2006, 08:45 AM

But therein lies the problem - Bronze (and Silver) is not being judged under IJS, it is (presumably) judged under the 6.0 system, at least for the next few years. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason for changing the WBP requirements for Bronze and Silver was to bring them in line with the new WBP for Gold and Masters, which had to be changed to allow for judging under IJS.
Is there a plan to bring the IJS to bronze and silver next year, or the year after, or any time in the foreseeable future? If not, I question why the rush to change the WBP requirements for those levels.

So under the system we'll be judged under (6.0 with IJS program requirements :?? ), what will receive more credit? I have always been told that it's important to do what you do well. It's better to do an easier spin of good quality (more revs, well-centered, good speed) than to do a harder spin of lower quality (fewer revs, traveling, not great positions - like a camel where your leg is not at hip level, etc.). My worry is that with the new WBP, more Bronze skaters will be doing combo spins (with or without changing feet) that are not of good quality but will get more credit than a simpler spin that's done very well. Since IJS only requires 2 revs per position to get credit (then again, we're not technically being judged under IJS so I guess we need 3 revs?) there's the potential to see lots of not-so-great combos b/c they will be rewarded more, but then that lessens the quality of the overall skating.
This is exactly what we've seen at the junior/senior levels for the past couple of years; everyone tries to get the highest levels they possibly can, even if the spins are slower and sloppier. When's the last time you saw a beautiful camel position held for 8-10 revolutions? Or a layback sustained in a single position for longer than 3 revs? Or for that matter, a spiral sequence without a catch-foot position or a fan spiral or whatever? Judges are reluctant to give anything higher than +1 unless an element is PHENOMENAL, so a lower-level element, even done well, will accrue fewer points than a higher-level element of mediocre quality.

MusicSkateFan

05-09-2006, 11:01 AM

Loop Loop, Its even worse than that! I just saw Cherry Blosson Competition...Novice Boys doing change of edge sit spins when their basic sit spin position was suspect! I hate what it has done for the sport! I enjoyed watching most of the Championship Master ladies because there was some beautiful classic positions being done!

daisies

05-09-2006, 01:30 PM

NaomiBeth1

05-09-2006, 01:38 PM

Hi Gang,

I'm sorry Bronze skaters, but your spins will be a maximum of 2. A movement was made by an adult skater today to reopen the issue for discussion and revision to make it 3 spins, but it was voted upon and rejected by the convention.

Glad I'm silver...doesn't really make sense for the test to have more elements than the competition program

jazzpants

05-09-2006, 02:33 PM

For people who dislike spinning, I guess the new limit of two spins rather than three (in PB) would be an incentive to move to bronze! ;)Not necessarily true. I like spinning...well, at least I hate them a lot less than jumps anyway (MSF and I should trade strengths...though from the video I saw of him at AN this year, he's a lot stronger of a spinner than he gives himself credit for. ;) ) But I feel that there's a lot more pressure for me to push for those combo spins now... rather than good single spins, to get the technical scores up. And as Tony Conte expressed to me in his email to me regarding this point "Most bronze skaters cannot hold a camel for greater than 2 revolutions."

Okay, here's some other things he mentioned that will shred some light:
As for Bronze, we opted to leave it at 2 spins. In the IJS system there is no Minimum, only maximums. That being said, we felt 2 was appropriate give the short FS time. Also, skaters shoud focus their attention on actually try to rotate their spins greater than 3 revs. For combo spins to count, they must have at least 2 full revolutions in positions. (That response should answer the question about combo spins, as well as why he thinks that Bronze should be left at 2 spins.)

I could sorta see his point... I mean, I have enough trouble trying to spin fast enough on my sit spin to go more than 3 revs to fit in my choreography. But, I also see the pressure that's gonna put the skaters to do combo spins, as well as the hassles involved in adjusting the choreography, and that's my major beef about it.

Yeah, it will be a pain in the butt for some people, but, as stated before, very few people use the same choreography for a test as they do for a competition.I dunno, daisies... that program you saw at Sectionals is going to be my test program for Bronze FS -- well, minus what was supposed to be a flip that I botched on for a toe loop (which I probably should have done at Sectionals. :roll: ) I supposed I can change one of the spins to some footwork if I were to keep the program for a Bronze FS comp (if I skate up!)

Shouldn't matter though... I'm on competition hiatus!!! You just saw my very last competition as a Pre-Bronze FS skater! I'm not coming back to compete 'til I pass my Bronze FS tests! :D

daisies

05-09-2006, 03:32 PM

I dunno, daisies... that program you saw at Sectionals is going to be my test program for Bronze FS -- well, minus what was supposed to be a flip that I botched on for a toe loop (which I probably should have done at Sectionals. :roll: ) I supposed I can change one of the spins to some footwork if I were to keep the program for a Bronze FS comp (if I skate up!)
That's why I said "very few" people use the same choreography. You obviously are one of the few! :)

Terri C

05-09-2006, 03:51 PM

That's why I said "very few" people use the same choreography. You obviously are one of the few! :)

No, she isn't! Minus the extra toe loop on a toe loop toe loop combo and a sal/toe combo, put the scratch spin where the second sit is and there's my test program for Bronze! So I use the same choreography minus little things here and there!

Debbie S

05-09-2006, 03:52 PM

You obviously are one of the few! :)Add me to the list. Doing the test program in comp is the best way I can think of to really prepare for skating it in a test situation. I'd like to pass the Bronze FS test on the first try. My plans were always to have the program rechoreographed somewhat (meaning increase the difficulty of the jumps and spins, and replace the back scratch at the beginning with another spin - now, I guess I won't be needing a spin there at all) after I passed and started competing at Bronze. I guess maybe the move from Pre-Bronze to Bronze is a bit different than moving between other levels b/c the program length is the same, so programs can be used at either level interchangeably until one officially tests up.

jazzpants

05-09-2006, 04:39 PM

That's why I said "very few" people use the same choreography. You obviously are one of the few! :)You'd be surprised how many of those "few" there are! ;) :lol:

In my case, it's already too time consuming to keep up with a program AND still practice my Bronze Moves for my test. (And wouldn't you know it... primary coach sticks in the 5 step mohawks "just for me" so I wouldn't forget to practice my Bronze Moves even when I'm preparing for a competition! How considerate!!!! :P :lol: ) But there's also a factor in cost in terms of lost time to recover those things that I've worked on prior to dropping it to work on a program (b/c for me I can't afford time and $$$ to get a choreographer to work on just choreography. I'm already stretched as is...)

I could tell you though that the time it takes for me to get my footwork right usually take at least 3 months just to get the footwork and another couple of months after that to get the speed and the flow that my coaches want. To me, getting the footwork for a program is like preparing for a moves test (b/c I am practicing my moves element! :lol:) That's one reason why I don't currently do multiple programs... (or for that matter, why I don't compete much... :P ) Just too much stress for me!

But this is just me...

daisies

05-09-2006, 06:15 PM

No, she isn't!
Wait, what? Why isn't she one of the few? You can be one of the few too without changing her status as one of the few!

Sorry, I'm an editor. ;)

Anyway, the point is, you're inconvenienced. Sorry. But it's not like it's not workable. Hopefully soon all the stars will align and everyone will be happy.

:: wakes up from dream ::

LOL!

jazzpants

05-09-2006, 06:20 PM

Wait, what? Why isn't she one of the few? You can be one of the few too without changing her status as one of the few! (In fake melodramatic tone... I'M SO CONFUUUUUSED!!!! :frus: )

:lol: :lol: :lol:

NaomiBeth1

05-09-2006, 06:37 PM

ons."

Okay, here's some other things he mentioned that will shred some light:
(That response should answer the question about combo spins, as well as why he thinks that Bronze should be left at 2 spins.)

I agree that nice spins with more revolutions are nicer, but I'd rather have seen them change the rules to say no camels, or no laybacks, etc.

doubletoe

05-09-2006, 07:16 PM

My interpretation of how I read the rules on the third spin is that it would count as a transitional step to whatever element you have, meaning that it would probably not hurt, but it probably is extra time that you can't use towards other requirements in the well-balanced program for Bronze. Of course, to be competitive, you would have to up your ante on the spin requirements and really push for 3 rev for each spin position you're in... :frus:

Actually, you do not need to have 3 revolutions in each position if you are doing a combination spin. You only need two revolutions in position and 3 revolutions on each foot. So, for example, if you do a camel-sit/back sit, you only need 2 revolutions in the camel and 2 revolutions in the sit, but then you need 3 revolutions on the back sit. If you only do a camel-sit, you'll get credit if you do 2 full rev's in camel position and 2 full rev's in sit position. I think you can do it! :)

doubletoe

05-09-2006, 07:22 PM

Daisy, or anyone else who might know:
So is there any plan to change the spin requirements on the Bronze test to bring it in line with the Bronze balanced program requirements?

daisies

05-09-2006, 09:14 PM

Daisy, or anyone else who might know:
So is there any plan to change the spin requirements on the Bronze test to bring it in line with the Bronze balanced program requirements?
It has not yet been discussed.

dani

05-10-2006, 09:34 AM

Dennis had a good idea for choreography.

Although at first I didn't like the changes, one thing I do like will be the time for skating in between everything! I think the idea of 4 jumping elements and 3 being combinations seems a little unbalanced though!

FWIW Count me in the category of test programs historically being similar to competition programs with a slight downgrading of elements for "playing it safe" on the test.

I have a quick question maybe Daisies can answer?

At the start of my program I do a schaefer push (however you spell that) then step forward into a waltz jump with a quick cross behind etc. The point being that I consider that choreography heading into my first jump. Will the new requirements count that as a jumping element?

Thanks for all of the hard work, I know all of this is a work in progress! I too would like to see the difficulty of spins limited for Bronze just like the jumps are limited.

Ellyn

05-10-2006, 12:40 PM

I agree that nice spins with more revolutions are nicer, but I'd rather have seen them change the rules to say no camels, or no laybacks, etc.

I wouldn't!

Camel spin is a required element on the silver test. In fact it's the least consistent element for me on that test (somedays I can do 4-5 revolutions, but other times I can't even get one and fall out), and along with the stamina to skate 2 minutes is the main reason I didn't test up before the moves requirements came in. Now I also need to get much better at those back threes before I could hope to test up.

I've known guys who were landing double toes but couldn't pass the silver test because of the camel spin.

So bronze skaters need to be working on it, and that probably means putting it in the competition program, either solo or in a combination spin (especially with only two spins available), either to try to get it up to silver test standards or to showcase a good element if it's already there.

The layback is a good consistent spin for me, I can nearly always do it with 4-7 revolutions in position, and it usually centers better than my scratch spin.

Would you also want to not allow combination spins in bronze?

Adults aren't necessarily going to be well-balanced skaters at this level. Some may be far ahead in spins, or some spins, or in jump, or some specific jumps, and weaker in the other. Some can do pretty good spread eagles etc. and some will never be able to do them at all.

I think the MITF requirements do enough of a job of slotting pre-bronze, bronze, and silver skaters at the right levels, there are already some restrictions on jumps and fewer on spins, requiring minimum revolutions in spins will allow individual skaters to weed out the spins they individually can't do well enough.

Too much limitation on elements will mean that some skaters will be stuck in a level where they can do several more difficult elements that are not allowed but cannot do, or cannot do as well, other elements that are allowed and their competitors at that level are better at, and if they "skate up" to the next level, there may be even more elements common and allowed at that level that they're behind on and they'd also be behind on the basic skating and may need several years to test up to that level officially.

(BTW, I think that limiting adult gold to only 3 different doubles, and not allowing double axel, would be more appropriate than allowing only double salchow, toe loop, and loop, for similar reasons.)

doubletoe

05-10-2006, 01:17 PM

Very good arguments. Specific limitations on jumps (or spins) can penalize "unbalanced" skaters. As it is, I think the fact that jumps have been restricted in Bronze and Silver (no axel in Bronze, no doubles in Silver) while spins have not, has given an advantage to those skaters who are stronger spinners than jumpers. A few years ago when I was in Bronze, the woman who beat me at Sectionals had a flying camel.
I don't really have a strong stance on whether Gold skaters should be limited by the number of different doubles they are allowed to do or which specific doubles they are allowed to do (i.e., only toeloop, salchow and loop) but I can understand the frustration of anyone who is more comfortable with a double flip than a double salchow.

daisies

05-11-2006, 01:02 PM

I have a quick question maybe Daisies can answer?

At the start of my program I do a schaefer push (however you spell that) then step forward into a waltz jump with a quick cross behind etc. The point being that I consider that choreography heading into my first jump. Will the new requirements count that as a jumping element?Is it a true waltz jump in which there is a clear landing? If so, it's a jump -- at least under 6.0. Not sure whether a waltz jump counts as a jump under IJS, though I would think it should with adults.

Debbie S

05-11-2006, 01:21 PM

Not sure whether a waltz jump counts as a jump under IJS, though I would think it should with adults.Well, unless they make revisions to the point value structure, a waltz jump doesn't count b/c only jumps with a full rev have values. This is one of the problems with applying IJS to adult skating, particularly the lower levels. Pre-Bronze and Bronze skaters regularly have half-rev jumps in their programs but according to the way IJS is constructed, the lowest valued jump is a toe loop. I remember trying to find out what would be done about waltz jumps by looking through the protocols from O'dorf last year, and I remember not seeing any listed for credit.

But Bronze will be judged under 6.0 for at least the next year, so I assume any identifiable jump is still considered a jump - although Dani raises a good point. What if a jump element is clearly part of choreo or footwork? I'm thinking of split jumps and falling leafs as well as waltz jumps (isn't there a footwork step called a cross waltz that's kind of like a waltz jump?) - oh but then again, splits and falling leafs (and half-loops) aren't considered jump elements under IJS, correct? But then, what about 6.0? Gosh, this is confusing! :??

And to throw more confusion into the mix, here's another question: is there a limit as to how many jumps can be repeated? I know that a jump can be done a max of 2 times with at least 1 of those in combo, but is there a limit (a la Zayak rule) on types of jumps repeated? For example, could you have 2 sals, 2 toe loops, and 2 loops in your program, as long as you adhered to the combo repeat rule?

As far as restricting certain types of spins, I generally agree with Ellyn, with one exception: I don't think flying spins should be allowed in Bronze. Regular camels and sits, yes, but flying ones, no. Sorry, JMO.

daisies

05-11-2006, 01:40 PM

And to throw more confusion into the mix, here's another question: is there a limit as to how many jumps can be repeated? I know that a jump can be done a max of 2 times with at least 1 of those in combo, but is there a limit (a la Zayak rule) on types of jumps repeated? For example, could you have 2 sals, 2 toe loops, and 2 loops in your program, as long as you adhered to the combo repeat rule?
Per the new adult WBPs, there is no limit on the number of jumps you can repeat. It's just that you can only repeat them once, and one of the two must be in combo or sequence.

LoopLoop

05-11-2006, 01:55 PM

Will sequences be downgraded via the 0.8 factor for us as they are for other levels under IJS?

NoVa Sk8r

05-11-2006, 02:07 PM

Well, unless they make revisions to the point value structure, a waltz jump doesn't count b/c only jumps with a full rev have values. This is one of the problems with applying IJS to adult skating, particularly the lower levels. Pre-Bronze and Bronze skaters regularly have half-rev jumps in their programs but according to the way IJS is constructed, the lowest valued jump is a toe loop. I remember trying to find out what would be done about waltz jumps by looking through the protocols from O'dorf last year, and I remember not seeing any listed for credit.For the pairs event at O'dorf last year, a few teams did elements that technically are not under in the IJS playbook (throw waltz jump and pivot spiral). These elements DID receive credit and had a point value associated with them.

daisies

05-11-2006, 02:07 PM

Will sequences be downgraded via the 0.8 factor for us as they are for other levels under IJS?
Hopefully someone else will know the answer to this. I don't know the answer because it has nothing to do with what the committee or GC voted on; it's a technical panel issue. But I don't see why it would be any different for adults.

rlichtefeld

05-12-2006, 09:49 AM

For the pairs event at O'dorf last year, a few teams did elements that technically are not under in the IJS playbook (throw waltz jump and pivot spiral). These elements DID receive credit and had a point value associated with them.

Actually, if you are talking about the Johnsons, there aren't any base points for the Throw Waltz, nor any of their elements:
http://www.isufs.org/results/adult05/ac05_p_fs_scores.pdf

Here are all the results for last year:
http://www.isufs.org/results/adult05/

Rob

NoVa Sk8r

05-12-2006, 01:42 PM

Actually, if you are talking about the Johnsons, there aren't any base points for the Throw Waltz, nor any of their elements:
http://www.isufs.org/results/adult05/ac05_p_fs_scores.pdf

Here are all the results for last year:
http://www.isufs.org/results/adult05/

RobYou have to look at the other competitors. Not to disparage the Johnsons, but I have seen that performance, and not one element was complete or done properly. Hence, the zero for the technical mark.

If you look at the 2nd place team, the Schwabs, you will see that element 10 is a throw waltz (1WTh), for which the base mark is 1.0. And element 6 is a forward pivot spiral (PiF1). The French team (who had interesting moves and choreography) also did a pivot spiral.

rlichtefeld

05-12-2006, 02:42 PM

You have to look at the other competitors. Not to disparage the Johnsons, but I have seen that performance, and not one element was complete or done properly. Hence, the zero for the technical mark.

If you look at the 2nd place team, the Schwabs, you will see that element 10 is a throw waltz (1WTh), for which the base mark is 1.0. And element 6 is a forward pivot spiral (PiF1). The French team (who had interesting moves and choreography) also did a pivot spiral.

I stand (sit) corrected.

Rob

sk8pics

05-13-2006, 08:49 AM

I'm surprised the judges/callers at Oberstdorf gave credit for pairs elements not on their points list. They certainly didn't do that for the singles skaters. In fact, I remember I was watching an official warm up for Bronze men, and I watched one man do several waltz jumps in a row at one point, and one of the officials came up to me and said, "We think waltz jumps are very beautiful but they don't get any points. Would you please help spread the word? They're very beautiful, though!"

I think there will have to be some adjustments for the lower levels at some point in the code of points scoring system, but obviously they're not here yet. So you only have to worry about it right now if you're planning to do Oberstdorf, unless you're a gold skater or higher.

TimDavidSkate

05-14-2006, 09:36 PM

:cry: damn it, the 2 spin passes minimum on the silver level didn't go through... :cry: I guess I have to stick that final back scratch somewhere or attitude spin..

NoVa Sk8r

05-14-2006, 09:44 PM

Yay, report is up.
http://usfsa.org/event_story.asp?id=34325

Lovepairs, check out bottom of p. 12 for adult pairs info. (ETA: and pp. 36-37 for well-balanced program requirments for pairs FS.)
Loops, pivot position not required in silver pairs!

Addendum A (Adult Skating) begins on p. 34 (so glad to see that "three" instead of "two" for spin requirements in adult silver singles 8-) ).

Debbie S

05-14-2006, 10:30 PM

Interesting. I just now noticed that the new WBP requirements for Bronze have outlawed flying spins. I didn't even notice that in the addendum that was posted prior to GC, but whatever, I think that's a good idea. Of course, as with the rule change last year that disallowed lutzes in Pre-Bronze, not every skater and/or their coach may actually learn about or follow the rule (see my post in the May Day thread). But it's a step in the right direction.

LoopLoop

05-15-2006, 08:06 AM

Loops, pivot position not required in silver pairs!

Addendum A (Adult Skating) begins on p. 34 (so glad to see that "three" instead of "two" for spin requirements in adult silver singles 8-) ).

And the time for gold pairs went up to 3:40!!!! 8O Gulp. With the same WBP requirements as masters pairs... hmm, might have to stay in silver after all.

flutzilla1

05-15-2006, 08:42 AM

Interesting. I just now noticed that the new WBP requirements for Bronze have outlawed flying spins..
:mrgreen: Yay! I've always thought that flying spins shouldn't be allowed at Bronze (uhm, aren't they from the Gold FS test anyway?) so I agree 100% with this decision.

dcden

05-15-2006, 09:10 AM

I've always thought that flying spins shouldn't be allowed at Bronze (uhm, aren't they from the Gold FS test anyway?)

No, not even! Intermediate FS I believe.

As with Debbie S, I was not expecting or prompting this rule change, but I think it's reasonable.

Careygram

05-15-2006, 10:18 AM

Was there a difference between Gold Pairs and Master Pairs requirements before? OR did gold pairs stay the same and Championship gold pairs get the master pair time and WBP requirements? You can see how good I am with the rules. Also, it says that champ. gold pairs will have same requirements as gold pairs--does that mean a silver skater and a gold skater can still compete?
Thanks to anyone who knows the rules. 8O

LoopLoop

05-15-2006, 10:23 AM

There was a pretty big difference between gold and masters pairs for the past two years (since the bronze/silver/gold WBP were established). Gold was 3:10 and masters was 3:40, and both are now 3:40. And for gold, the overhead lifts allowed were limited to platter, forward press, and two-handed star, with one-handed lifts, no-handed lifts, no combination lifts prohibited... There were no lift limits in masters, and that now applies to gold as well.

NoVa Sk8r

05-15-2006, 10:47 AM

Also, it says that champ. gold pairs will have same requirements as gold pairs--does that mean a silver skater and a gold skater can still compete?Hey DC (smooches!),
The championship pairs event states that the qualification is as set forth by the existing adult masters pair requirements (rule 4110) and adult gold pair
requirements. (rule 4120). According to this, a silver level skater can skate with a gold level skater in the championship pairs event. Kinda nifty.

BUT, the original proposal stated that the adult gold level is the minimum level for this event.

I wonder if this was an oversight or if the minimum really is gold for all. I know there was some behind-the-scenes lobbying to adopt the previous gold apirs requirement. Would be good to know ...

flo

05-15-2006, 10:59 AM

sk8pics

05-15-2006, 11:28 AM

BUT, the original proposal stated that the adult gold level is the minimum level for this event.

I wonder if this was an oversight or if the minimum really is gold for all. I know there was some behind-the-scenes lobbying to adopt the previous gold apirs requirement. Would be good to know ...

I'm remembering some discussion about this, and the fact that if both partners were required to have passed gold, it would prevent some teams currently skating gold from competing in the championship pairs event, and that wasn't the intention. So, I think it was changed as you quoted, and no oversight.

flying~camel

05-15-2006, 11:32 AM

As with Debbie S, I was not expecting or prompting this rule change, but I think it's reasonable.

I'm a little miffed over this change, as I currently have a flying camel in my Bronze FS program that will now have to be removed. :??

I guess I'll just have to put it in my new interp program (if flying spins are allowed there - I'm new to interp, so I'm not sure).

Careygram

05-15-2006, 12:16 PM

Okay so then my last thought is this--say you go to sectionals to qualify for ch. gold and you don't but you're allowed to compete in gold pairs with no QR--you'll have to have a different (meaning 30 seconds shorter) program for non-qualifying? Even if it's the same music and everything it's still like having to have two programs. Aw MAN.
Thanks everyone and smooches back baby cakes!
Deb

flo

05-15-2006, 12:24 PM

I thought the time was a max of 3:40 for both.

doubletoe

05-15-2006, 01:41 PM

I'm a little miffed over this change, as I currently have a flying camel in my Bronze FS program that will now have to be removed. :??

I guess I'll just have to put it in my new interp program (if flying spins are allowed there - I'm new to interp, so I'm not sure).

Sounds like you are a very strong skater and would do great in Silver! :)

lovepairs

05-15-2006, 02:44 PM

Not too wild about the championship pairs. Don't really see the point now - it will be the same people and event for championship and regular, (as we are not currently divided in age groups) just smaller. There's so few pairs that it will decrease the numbers in the regular event as well as the championship event. It just means you have to do another event (sectionals)to "qualify". It would be a sad case if one of the events did not have enough to compete.

Good point, Flo...the Championship Pairs will just be another Gold Pairs event with the Master Pairs mixed in. There is nothing really rigorous, or competitive about it now. Just another example of the USFSA not believing that Adult Skaters can handle the rigor of testing and competition.

Okay, having said that I'm very happy for the Gold Pair teams who fought to have the qualifications changed for the Championship event, and won the amendment! If that's what it says, Nova, then, yes, it is true that one Gold team member can bring along their Silver Partner into the Pairs Championship event.

To all Pair Teams: I will be posting a "One-Stop-Shopping" shortly in the "News" section of:www.adultpairskating.com (should be up by tonight) where you can find Code of Points, Info on the Championship Pairs Event, and Well-Balanced amendments for all level of Adult Pair Skating.

NoVa Sk8r

05-15-2006, 03:48 PM

The point of having the championship pairs event was because every other discipline--men and ladies singles and dance--has a championship event. I, too, think that there's no real point to having it now, but ya gotta start somewhere. And, eek, if they hadn't followed the current gold pairs rule? That would have meant that the current gold pairs champs--Judy & Paul--would not be allowed to compete in the championship event (she has passed gold free, but he has only passed silver FS).

pairman2

05-15-2006, 04:18 PM

Nova
I'll have to say I agree totally with Lovepairs !!!!! (but of course :D )

The making of the USFSA Championship Pairs should not revolve around qualifying one particular team!!!!
You are presuming that their testing level is static and will never change. The entry deadline is sometime in early January. It's now May. A challenge, yes, impossible, no!

On a general note, there is a lot that is convoluted in the Championship pair event qualifications and I know that the intented arrangement for the 06-07season is only to bridge over to the following year when they will again be modified; lets hope.

NoVa Sk8r

05-15-2006, 05:29 PM

The making of the USFSA Championship Pairs should not revolve around qualifying one particular team!!!!
You are presuming that their testing level is static and will never change. The entry deadline is sometime in early January. It's now May. A challenge, yes, impossible, no!Actually, i can think of at least 3 teams who would have been adversely affected by the rule not allowing one of the partners to be silver level. I was just providing the most prominent example.

LoopLoop

05-15-2006, 06:10 PM

It's tough to figure out what should be the qualifying tests for Championship Pairs, I think, because freestyle tests are also used as qualifiers for the open events, and many of the pairs skaters also compete in singles. For example, neither NoVa nor I have taken any pairs tests at all; we qualify for silver pairs through our silver FS tests. And for that matter, last year's gold pairs champions hadn't taken any pairs tests either; they were both legitimate gold-level FS skaters.

If we were to try to compete in gold pairs next year, there are multiple ways we could qualify: we could test preliminary and juvenile pairs, which would only require one program as the preliminary pair test is an elements-only test, like pre-pre or pre-bronze FS. Second option: I've passed gold MIF, so I could test gold pairs, but that would require taking *three* pairs tests, as I'd have to take the bronze and silver tests first. Not that I couldn't pass them, but each test has a different time limit and different elements required, which would mean, functionally, learning and practicing three different programs just for testing. Or, third option: one (or both) of us could try to pass the gold FS test, which would also put us into gold pairs, but would also force us into competing in gold FS, which I know *I'm* not ready for.

If the intent is to have only the pairs tests used as qualifications for pairs events, I think there should be some leeway given in the testing. Perhaps if a team has already competed at a certain level, they should be able to take any lower-level tests by just doing the required elements and not a program. Or putting together a "program" without music.

flo

05-15-2006, 06:19 PM

There are many pairs that do not have pair tests or are at different levels. This does not seem to be much of a problem as we see how these pairs do in competitions. One of the committee members was horrified that when I competed in masters pairs I had a bronze fs, yet I had juvenile pair test. My partner had no pairs tests, but a gold fs. We were well matched and ended up 2nd over pairs with intermediate pair tests. So, I don't think it's a big deal to allow pairs with different tests, or those of us who have been in it for a while with no pair tests.

lovepairs

05-15-2006, 06:52 PM

flying~camel

05-15-2006, 08:30 PM

Sounds like you are a very strong skater and would do great in Silver! :)

Based on the way I skated in Bronze at AN this year (last place in Bronze I), I'd get eaten alive in Silver :cry:

The flying camel just happens to click with me, especially over the last 3 weeks or so. I'm hoping I can transfer some of that to the back camel.

NoVa Sk8r

05-15-2006, 09:00 PM

Well herein lies the problem: there are no "pairs" elements in freestyle tests, such as lifts, pair spins, or death spirals. Anyone who has skated pairs even knows that doing the s-b-s single element including footwork and spiral sequences becomes a totally different animal when done with another person. So, why should passing a freestyle test that has none of the above in it qualify one to compete in pairs?

I've said this before and have had tomatoes thrown at my computer screen, but I'll say it, again: I'm not allowed to compete in dance with a freestyle test, I have to pass my "dance" tests. I would like to argue that the "dance patterns" are just as specific to dance, as the "pair elements" are to pair skating. Plus there is one big pairs element that I forgot to mention that is very unique to pairs and that's Synchronization. I don't believe you have to work on that when you are skating alone, at least, not the last time I looked.But I think that pairs has more in common with singles freeskating than it does with dance. Also, the dance tests have more than just skating skills attached to them: They also have set patterns.

Synchronization, of course, is important in pairs, and I think that Loops and I--who have never taken a pairs test--have this worked out pretty well.

I think a better argument would be that of safety. Let's have pair tests to ensure that the pairs skaters have passed a minimum of training instead of "signing up for fun" (as if pairs skaitng is fun :P ).
I, for one, am happy that there are several ways to qualify to skate pairs. It's hard enough finding teams to compete against. I can only imagine how that would be if the hurdle were further refined to include pairs tests.

On a semi-related note, I'm glad that throw triples are not permitted in the championship pairs event! :P

Tomato-friendly yours,
ST

lovepairs

05-15-2006, 09:26 PM

But I think that pairs has more in common with singles freeskating than it does with dance. Also, the dance tests have more than just skating skills attached to them: They also have set patterns.

Synchronization, of course, is important in pairs, and I think that Loops and I--who have never taken a pairs test--have this worked out pretty well.

About pairs having more in common with free skating; it's however you wish to slice the pear, it's half of this, half of that, you can argue it both ways. The point I was trying to make is that each discipline is unique and requires it's own set of tests. Here's a thought: Dancers take dance tests to qualify for dance competitions, Single skaters take single free test to qualify for singles events, and pair skaters take pairs test to qualify for pairs competition.

Of course, you can be good at Synchronization with out having taken any tests. However, I know how to do the Chacha Langa Conga, but I can't compete in dance, because I don't have the appropriate dance test, and the fact that I can do a lutz lift doesn't get me in the dance competition, either...can you follow my logic here? Okay, I'm not coming back to this site...I've had it :frus:

sk8er1964

05-15-2006, 10:47 PM

lovepairs

05-16-2006, 06:00 AM

Thank you, Skater1964

The solution is so simple and obvious: have the appropriate pairs test qualify you for the appropriate pairs competition. In other words, taking the Bronze Pairs test with the "well-balanced" bronze pairs elements qualifies your team to compete in Bronze. Takiing the Silver Pairs test with the "well-balanced" silver pairs elements qualifies you to compete in Silver Pairs...so, on, and so forth...

It is this way in Singles and Dance; very neat, very logical. It is only when it comes to Adult Pairs that they are unable to straighten this mess out for some reason.

What I said above would be true all the way up through Adult Gold Pairs. Believe it, or not, there is a more serious problem in the system when you try to test into Master Pairs. What you have to do is slide over to the standard track and take the Intermediate Pairs test, which has the same passing average as the Adult Gold Pairs test, and is easier interms of elements. For instance, the Intermediate Pairs test does not require a Death Sprial, but the Adult Gold Pairs test does. There are a few other similar problems between the Adult Gold Pair test and the Standard Intermediate Pairs test that makes the Adult Gold Pair a harder test. However, becoming Master Pairs is "suppossed" to be more difficult than the Gold Pairs--go, figure!

Aaaaaargggghhhh!!! You made me come back to the site! :P

By the way: One-Stop-Shopping for all of the Adult Pairs for all of the new guidelines just approved by the GC are now up in the "News" section of: www.adultpairskating.com

LoopLoop

05-16-2006, 07:55 AM

pairman2

05-16-2006, 08:13 AM

Re: Qualifying tests for Pairs

There seems to be a lot of hesitation about testing. Pair skating IS totally unique. Lifts (beyond dance lifts), death spirals and throws are all unique to pairs. Carrying a partner down ice over your head at a high rate of speed, safely, can never be approved or verified in a freestyle test.

Pair testing is all about safety. For some reason, adult pairs is the only discipline in the whole managerie of skating disciplines that currently allows virtually any test to qualify.

Standard track pairs is sensible. You must take a pairs test to compete pairs. End of story!!!!

Anyone who loves pairs and takes it seriously should not hesitate to bite the bullet and take the tests. The tests will make you better and safer pair skaters. Do you want to incorporate dramatic pair elements into your program? Then why would you opt out of testing that would prove a steady progression of those skills? Each partner owes it to the other for the sake of safety.

Are the standard track kids avoiding tests? Are judges or the USFSA interested in downgrading entrance requirements for standard track pairs? Why should adult pairs be the 'spoiled stepchild' that's allowed to get out of anything rigorous?

I know its not really about $, given what we all pay a year to do this. Given that most test preparation would fit into the matrix of training already in progress... average test fee...$75???..... assurance that you have really proved yourself in a set of otherwise dangerous skills...priceless.

pairman2

05-16-2006, 08:30 AM

One other thing

Why did we all put ourselves through years of headaches and frustration for freestyle testing and more recently MIF? Because we really wanted to compete and we really wanted to prove to ourselves we could do it.

I don't buy into the idea that pair participants will drop like flies if they have test pairs. Pair people are extremely motivated. They are not in it on a whim, ready to drop off at the mere suggestion that they have to test.

My guess is that a few would drop out, some would be delayed by a year or so in there overall goals while they did some catch up, but eventually, the numbers would actually rise in proportion to over all proficiency. Quite possibly, it would be the new entrants leading the way and the veterans playing catch up.

LoopLoop

05-16-2006, 08:32 AM

It's not the $$$, it's the TIME. And finding uncrowded-enough sessions which ALLOW pairs. And fitting them into the schedules of two working adults who ALSO skate singles. If we could have just taken the silver pairs test that would have been one thing, but we would have had to learn and practice a shorter program STRICTLY for the bronze test, THEN learn another program for the silver test, which we could have used to compete with. We started competing about seven months after starting pairs lessons as it was, and both neglected our singles skating in order to progress as fast as we did; if we'd had to go through the additional hurdles, we might not have ventured into competing in pairs at all, and I don't think we're alone in that.

And frankly, would taking two pairs tests have made us a more successful team in the 2004-2005 season?

As to why the USFSA is allowing multiple routes of entrance into adult pairs, there's an easy answer. To INCREASE the numbers. To INCREASE participation, not LIMIT it.

Most of us who compete in pairs take it seriously, but not seriously ENOUGH to give up our singles skating. For many reasons, but a big one is that partnerships don't always last forever, and pairs partners don't grow on trees. Look at the gold teams from 2005 nationals: the first and second place teams aren't skating together any more. Of those four people, all of whom were successful pairs skaters, ONE of them has formed another partnership. Team breakups happen for many many reasons, most of which have nothing to do with the skating. Jobs and available time change, family situations change, goals and aspirations change, injuries happen... and if you're part of a team in that situation and you've given up singles you're out of luck.

pairman2

05-16-2006, 08:50 AM

Loop Loop
OK, I can sympathize with your personal perspective, but if I take it to it's logical conclusion, why do we bother to test freestyle? Why shouldn't standard track pairs just ditch their tests? Why do adults bother to test anything at all? We're all out of money and time. Why not just have one big no test free for all? What motivates us to compete in the first place? Couldn't we just stay home, learn whatever pairs (or singles) skills we want, do a show now and then and be perfectly fulfilled? No testing required.....

Tell me why, exactly, are we different then standard track when it comes to competing?

NoVa Sk8r

05-16-2006, 09:31 AM

Why did we all put ourselves through years of headaches and frustration for freestyle testing and more recently MIF? Because we really wanted to compete and we really wanted to prove to ourselves we could do it.

I don't buy into the idea that pair participants will drop like flies if they have test pairs. Pair people are extremely motivated. They are not in it on a whim, ready to drop off at the mere suggestion that they have to test.

My guess is that a few would drop out, some would be delayed by a year or so in there overall goals while they did some catch up, but eventually, the numbers would actually rise in proportion to over all proficiency. Quite possibly, it would be the new entrants leading the way and the veterans playing catch up.Sorry, Lee, but I disagree with many of your statements. Most ADULT skaters (yes, we are ADULT skaters, not kiddie, STANDARD track skaters; if I wanted to be a STANDARD track skater, I would take the STANDARD test). Most ADULT pair skaters that I know have formed a partnership on an impromptu or ad hoc basis. That is, they were well-established enough in singles skating to just give the pairs skating thing a go. And you know what? A lot of these teams have done just fine in adult pairs. Claiming that adults should take the pairs test to make it a more logical, sensical competitive environment is one thing (compete in the events for which you have tested), but claiming that one cannot be a good pair skater because he/she has not taken the pair test is, well, ridiculous.

If you think that the number of pair teams would NOT drop off if the only way to compete was to pass the pairs test, then I think you are seriosuly kidding yourself. As Loops correctly pointed out, the multiple-entry point for adult pairs was not an oversight, loophole, or accident. It was by specific design to encourage as many people as possible to enter this discipline.

Thru silver pairs, there really is nothing that is dangerous since overhead lifts are not allowed. And even in gold pairs, overhead lifts are an option, not a requirement.

pairman2

05-16-2006, 09:34 AM

pairman2

05-16-2006, 09:42 AM

Nova

Just to clarify one thing, I didn't say you couldn't be a good skater (pair or otherwise) without testing.

But no one seems to be clamoring to eliminate MIF, freestyle or dance tests. So as I pointed out earlier, adult pairs is being treated like the spoiled step child that needs special help.

Whatever is good for all the other disciplines can only have a positive effect on adult pairs.

LoopLoop

05-16-2006, 09:50 AM

More issues....

When it comes to testing pairs Loop Loop, are adult pairs different then adult competitive dance? They have to test out the wazoo! To get to gold level doesn't that entail 10-12-14 separate dance tests? (Maybe a dancer could help me here) That's on top of MIF. There's absolutely no cross over or slack in their competitive requirements! They have the very same issues with adult partnerships, time and money (plus 3 or 4 separate outfits for Champiopnship Dance). As far as numbers are concerned, half the rinks we skate at, you can't hardly step on the ice without getting run over by adult dancers, many of them competitive. So it doesn't seem to slow them down!

I don't know the exact details of dance testing, but I do know that *adult* dancers ARE NOT required to test MIF. In standard track, competitive dance teams must pass the MIF in order to compete in qualifying competitions but otherwise MIF is not required for dance testing. And I believe that someone taking up competitive dance at a high level (on the standard track) is allowed to skip some of the free dance tests. I remember reading that when Tiffany Stiegler switched from pairs to dance she had to pass all of the compulsory dances but was able to take the senior free dance test without having to test all of the other free dance levels.

Perhaps allowing the same type of crossover for adult pairs would be a fair compromise? Grandfather a skater to their MIF/FS level, and let them test pairs AT THE LEVEL in which they plan to compete.

Down here in DC I only know of a couple of adult dance teams, so we're not exactly overrun.

Careygram

05-16-2006, 09:58 AM

We want it both ways is the problem. Like I said before, the changing test requirements and rules were put into place because people were accusing so and so of sand bagging and saying that adult skating isn't taken seriously. Everyone thinks it's fine to limit gold free to certain doubles and people aren't saying that they should do away with the other tests so *logically* modeling pairs after the rest of the disciplines makes sense. Do we LIKE it? No. Do we have time for it? Well, I had to pass my gold moves and my free style suffered. Which is why I took my gold moves. I think they could grandfather in all the present pairs competitors that exist and then move ahead. All the arguments make sense but I still got stuck in a limited gold free. You may not like it but rules are rules and if they do it for one, why can't they do it for all.
My tomato opportunity
Deb

lovepairs

05-16-2006, 10:23 AM

But if pairs tests were required to compete in adult pairs, I can guarantee that the number of pairs would drop immediately and precipitously. Again, for those of us (I'm pretty sure the majority) who compete in both pairs AND singles, there just isn't enough ice time to go through all of the necessary tests.

First, and most important...Kisses, Carygram

Factoid: About there not being enough "time" to test as an adult skater: Pairsman2 runs his own contracting business, which is full time, and I was working full-time in museums up until this past September, at which time I embarked upon building my own business in real estate. The career change has been more time consuming then actually working a full-time 9-5. Let me highlight this by underscoring that fact that we are both totally broke at this point. Nevertheless, during the past 3 years Pairsman2 and I have managed to take over 15 tests between us in order to climb the ranks the way the USFSA laid it out. We started skating pairs at the bronze level together and took all of the required MIF that proceeded the Free and Pairs tests. We did this with only two pairs practices together a week--so, please don't tell me that you don't have the time. IT CAN BE DONE IF YOU WANT TO DO IT. Moreover, given this challenge, we managed to keep our pairs skating alive enough to take a Silver Medal in the Gold Pairs event in Texas. Quite frankly, the MOVES were a tremendous help towards improving our pair skating.

Next, NO ONE SAID THAT PASSING ANY TEST MAKES YOU A BETTER SKATER. IT IS ALL OF THE "TIME" THAT YOU PUT INTO PRACTICING AS YOU WORK UP TO THE TEST THAT MAKES YOU IMPROVE.

Finally, if the tests don't mean anything with regard to qualifying for the competitions, then just bag the entire system, make everyone happy and just send everyone gold medals in the mail, since it is all meaningless anyway. Semiotics 101: MEANING IS WHERE EVERY YOU ASSIGN IT!

NoVa Sk8r

05-16-2006, 10:57 AM

Finally, if the tests don't mean anything with regard to qualifying for the competitions, then just bag the entire system, make everyone happy and just send everyone gold medals in the mail, since it is all meaningless anyway. Semiotics 101: MEANING IS [wherever] YOU ASSIGN IT!Once again, you've missed the mark. No once claimed that tests were meaningless. Those who didn't take the pairs test qualified to compete via other routes.

Your post is dangerously close to stating that medals won by pairs skaters who haven't tested are worthless. What a shame.

LoopLoop

05-16-2006, 11:12 AM

Finally, if the tests don't mean anything with regard to qualifying for the competitions, then just bag the entire system, make everyone happy and just send everyone gold medals in the mail, since it is all meaningless anyway. Semiotics 101: MEANING IS WHERE EVERY YOU ASSIGN IT!

All of the competing pairs HAVE passed tests which DO qualify them for the competitions. The RULES are that either singles or pairs tests are acceptable for that purpose, and under the rules in place every team which competes has EARNED their medals.

LoopLoop

05-16-2006, 11:18 AM

Factoid: About there not being enough "time" to test as an adult skater: Pairsman2 runs his own contracting business, which is full time, and I was working full-time in museums up until this past September, at which time I embarked upon building my own business in real estate. The career change has been more time consuming then actually working a full-time 9-5. Let me highlight this by underscoring that fact that we are both totally broke at this point. Nevertheless, during the past 3 years Pairsman2 and I have managed to take over 15 tests between us in order to climb the ranks the way the USFSA laid it out. We started skating pairs at the bronze level together and took all of the required MIF that proceeded the Free and Pairs tests. We did this with only two pairs practices together a week--so, please don't tell me that you don't have the time. IT CAN BE DONE IF YOU WANT TO DO IT. Moreover, given this challenge, we managed to keep our pairs skating alive enough to take a Silver Medal in the Gold Pairs event in Texas. Quite frankly, the MOVES were a tremendous help towards improving our pair skating.

Nobody is saying that there isn't time in general to test as an adult skater. Those of us who compete in pairs with FS tests have taken and passed tests. Over the years I've skated I've passed 5 MIF tests (standard track pre-pre through juvenile and adult gold) and 5 FS tests (adult pre-bronze through silver and standard track pre-pre and preliminary). Since I started skating pairs, the only test I've taken is gold MIF, because I've chosen to allocate my ice time in other ways.

Yes, we could have dedicated time to learning and practicing programs for pairs tests, which were not necessary for us under the rules. Instead we chose to spend that time working on our pairs *skills* and competitive programs. That was our choice, just as working your way up through the pairs tests rather than via singles was your choice, and both choices are valid and acceptable. Since you don't compete in singles, focusing on the pairs tests was the right option for you. Since we DO compete in singles, we chose the right option for us.

Mrs Redboots

05-16-2006, 11:57 AM

But if pairs tests were required to compete in adult pairs, I can guarantee that the number of pairs would drop immediately and precipitously. This is exactly what has happened in the UK, where pairs is the only discipline which requires tests to have been passed to compete even at the lowest level. Result - we had precisely one adult pair in the British Championships last year, and none at any other competition.

Not that we have all that many elite pairs, either - Kemp & King are the only Senior/international pair we have had for some years.

doubletoe

05-16-2006, 01:26 PM

Hopefully someone else will know the answer to this. I don't know the answer because it has nothing to do with what the committee or GC voted on; it's a technical panel issue. But I don't see why it would be any different for adults.

They were downgraded by 0.8 at Oberstdorf last year, FWIW.

flo

05-16-2006, 01:54 PM

With pair only test requirements, pair teams would definitely drop in numbers, and also it would be a great discouragement to new pair teams forming. The way it stands skaters can hook up and give it a try for a season or so. There's too much of an investment in training pairs as it it, let alone going for another test, if you already have a fs level. There's simply not enough time. This is one of the points we discussed several years ago when we were working on the adult pairs structure. Comparing it to dance is really not valid, as fs to dance does not equal a transition of fs to pairs. Pairs is a special animal, but a good fs skater can be well trained in pairs, it's not magic, just training and there's no need for another test. My former partner is a perfect example. There's no reason for him to have to go back and retest pairs. He's shown that in events. It's getting to be way too much. I was and am still against mandatory moves tests. I predicted the numbers, and more inportant the interest would drop as the frustration levels and time requirements rose, and here we have it. I remember meetings at AN where the concern was how to keep the numbers at AN down and under control. Well, I think they found a way! Just add another rule change. I'm also glad I competed in fs when there were fewer such rules. Now the programs are very cookie cutter.

PS. I'm in an airport on the way to France, and yes, I did carry on my skates!

phoenix

05-16-2006, 02:04 PM

More issues....

When it comes to testing pairs Loop Loop, are adult pairs different then adult competitive dance? They have to test out the wazoo! To get to gold level doesn't that entail 10-12-14 separate dance tests? (Maybe a dancer could help me here) That's on top of MIF. There's absolutely no cross over or slack in their competitive requirements! They have the very same issues with adult partnerships, time and money (plus 3 or 4 separate outfits for Champiopnship Dance). As far as numbers are concerned, half the rinks we skate at, you can't hardly step on the ice without getting run over by adult dancers, many of them competitive. So it doesn't seem to slow them down!

Just wanted to thank you for pointing that out. Actually, to finish your gold dances you must pass 23 tests.
My club currently charges $40 per test for pre-gold/gold (8 tests total there), plus you pay your partner/coach for taking you through. That varies, but by the higher levels you're generally paying at least $30-40 per dance. So $80 per dance times 8 dances--- $640.00 in testing for the last 2 levels *IF* you pass everything on the first try, which is unlikely. Damn, wish I hadn't figured all that out! 8O

I have a student I'm trying to get qualified to compete in bronze dance at next year's AN. To do that, he needs to pass 7 tests (prelim, pre-bronze, + 1 bronze), and that's without any moves requirement.

And while adult dancers aren't required to take MIF to compete, many of us do it anyway.

lovepairs

05-16-2006, 04:30 PM

Your post is dangerously close to stating that medals won by pairs skaters who haven't tested are worthless. What a shame.

Nova,

Don't go twisting my words...that's not what I said, meant, or even implied. I was talking about a much bigger picture here...sorry, darling, but I think you missed the mark.

Okay, I have to say this: after reading this entire thread, I have way more respect for Dancers than I ever did. Hey, Pairsman2 let's go Dancin where the competition is real! LOL!!!

To all the Dancers out there who have to take 23 Dance tests to qualify to for Championship Dance, this is all I have to say :bow: :bow: :bow:

JulieN

05-16-2006, 05:35 PM

To all the Dancers out there who have to take 23 Dance tests to qualify to for Championship Dance, this is all I have to say :bow: :bow: :bow:
Actually, it's possible to compete in Championship Dance with only 13 dance tests passed (one silver), provided that the partner has at least 16 dances passed (one pre-gold). That's the minimum requirement to compete in Pre-Gold, and all Pre-Gold couples can enter Championship dance. :)

Edit: They made the minimum Championship Dance requirements match the Pre-Gold minimum on purpose, so that both Pre-Gold and Gold dance couples can enter Championship.

lovepairs

05-16-2006, 07:59 PM

Still, 29 tests completed within one team is very admirable. I really had no idea that it was that many, and I thought 15 between my pairs partner and myself was a lot of testing--my hat goes off to you! :bow:

2salch0w

05-16-2006, 11:45 PM

lovepairs

05-17-2006, 05:48 AM

I agree that, in theory, it makes sense that the Pairs test determine your pairs competitive level. But I also agree that, in practice, this could lower participation, which I don't think anybody wants. The opposite happened with my first partner as we were actually shut out of the 2004 AN pairs event because of my singles test level. We had the bronze pairs test, but that didn't do us any good because I needed to be silver free. How crazy is that?

Hi Sal! So nice to hear your voice, again! About participation levels dropping, because of testing--just a few thoughts:

First, in "reality" there are not that many more dance teams that compete at Adult Nationals as there are Pair Teams, actually (hold on let me look the stats--I have the AN Dallas brochure here.) Okay, 22 pair teams (with one withdrawl) and the dancers had 30 teams. That's not that big of a difference. With that in mind, participation isn't dropping as a result of the dancers having to take dance tests to qualify for their appropriate categories.

This entire mess with the pair testing system began a little over ten years ago when there was thought not to be enough teams to create a competition. So, skaters were grandfathered from various kids of ways, and all the pairs comepted in one big competition called "Adult Pairs." As of, I think three years ago, Adult Pair Skating had grown enough in numbers that the USFSA was able to split our competitive structure to mirror everyone else (dancers and singles) into Bronze, Silver, Gold, Masters. As we saw in Dallas there were enough pair entries to make all 4 competitions happen. The purpose of the Adult Pairs Database (not the Website) was to show that show the we were growing in numbers. To date we have 38 actively skating teams (26 of whom are now represented on the website.) And, Adult Pairskating is, in deed, growing in interest, which is why the Championship Pairs event was ammended.

Okay, having said that and with the understanding that some teams will disolve (just like in dance) but that new teams will continue to form, I'd like to say that I think the argument of participation dropping, because of testing is an old and out-dated argument. I really believe that the reverse is now true. That is, that if the pairs testing/competition structure had some logic to it that you wouldn't see such disparity within competitive levels, and that this might actually inspire more people to try pairs and form teams. I'm not afraid that participation will drop at all. In fact, I believe the reverse is true and that, especially, pair skaters who show such tanacity to even attempt the discipline at all will find that they are very excited by the challenge of testing up to their appropriate level for pairs with moves then a pair test. Pairsman2 and I have been through the entire structure and it was hard (we failed many, many tests along the way) but, it is doable (again, we both work full-time, too.) I have to tell you that the challenge has inspired me...I also have to be honest and say that at the beginning I whinned about it, too. But you know what? I'd do it all over again given a choice not to do it, or to do it.

I write this looking forward to testing tomorrow. I am testing the Intermediate Moves, and then about an hour latter Pairsman2 and I will be taking the Intermediate Pairs test with hopes to become Master Pairs. We are so excited about taking these tests, you have no idea...!!!

2salch0w

05-17-2006, 06:35 AM

Ok lovepairs, you've convinced me. I agreed with you 99% anyway and was just worried about the participation thing. But I think you're right. In considering how I've felt about being pairs eligible along the way, I know I would have taken whatever test I needed to. And if that were a pairs test, then I'd have been there.

I think my bigger hangup is that you can't compete pairs at a lower level than the highest partners freestyle level. THIS is what I think may keep some people out of pairs.

Tim

Terri C

05-17-2006, 11:10 AM

Okay, are we all done arguing already ??? Sheesh! :roll: :lol:

jazzpants

05-17-2006, 11:31 AM

Okay, are we all done arguing already ??? Sheesh! :roll: :lol:No, we're not! Go away!!! LOL!!! :P :twisted: :lol:

Seriously... guys!!! Take it offline!!! And actually, what's changed is changed now! I mean we know that this isn't going to please everyone. I'm certain NOT happy with the change for Bronze spins, but I deal with it!!!

So...with all the love in the world for you guys... SHUT UP AND SKATE!!! :twisted: :P :lol:

lovepairs

05-17-2006, 11:57 AM

Dear Jazzpants,

I hope you will take no offense, but many of us had to suffer listening to people argue to death exactly how many rotations are now in a spin. We never asked anyone to take their conversation off line, or to stop talking about it. Hope everyone will show each other respect, and allow the conversations on these threads to play themselves out natuarally, and never ask anyone to leave.

NoVa Sk8r

05-17-2006, 12:25 PM

Seriously, I am enjoying reading lovepairs' and everyone else's comments.
(And we all had to suffer thru the interminable pre-bronze discussions.)

InsideAxel

05-17-2006, 12:33 PM

In that we (my partner and I) are beginning our adult pairs odyssey, I'm finding the discussions to be healthy, interesting and quite relevant. I realize there may be few in my exact position, but the posts have been very helpful to me and there have been good point made by all the posters on the subject.

Kelton

lovepairs

05-17-2006, 12:55 PM

Nova,

You tell 'em boyfriend...kiss, kiss, kisses.

InsideAxel, nice to meet you. Would you and your partner like to have an "Athlete's Profile" page of your own on: www.adultpairskating.com ?
We would all love to have your team represented!

Best,
Lovepairs

LoopLoop and Nova, it has been fun arguing back and forth about this, and even though we disagree about a lot of stuff--I'm so glad that we can all remain Pairs Friends! Will we be seeing you in Hackensack?

InsideAxel

05-17-2006, 01:00 PM

Lovepairs, I'll ask her and see!

Kelton

jazzpants

05-17-2006, 01:08 PM

(And we all had to suffer thru the interminable pre-bronze discussions.)Okay, but is some of the pair stuff relevant to GC? Is this something that can be at least taken to another thread of its own?

Discussing about this thread is all fine and all. The problem is that it's getting dangerous close to being a full blown WWIII here... and that is what I want to take offline...

(And we all had to suffer thru the interminable pre-bronze discussions.)Well, NoVa, if you want a healthy discussion about pairs, you gotta be willing to take the Pre-Bronze at AN discussion too! Fair's fair!!! :twisted: (And yes, I'm still pissed off about it! :x But I'm not going there since this thread is about GC.)

No offense taken, lovepairs!!! I understand. 8-) (And I'll forward your website and email to an Adult Silver Pairs team that skates at my rink too. And oh, yes! Good luck to you and pairsman2 on your test!)

Debbie S

05-17-2006, 01:17 PM

(And we all had to suffer thru the interminable pre-bronze discussions.)Um, I think you were a bit more than an innocent bystander to that discussion, no?

You know, NoVa (since you brought that thread up), given your lengthy posts on the importance of passing Bronze moves, it might be nice to offer some sort of recognition when someone you know passes that test.

There, I said my peace.:evil:

Lovepairs and Pairman, good luck on your tests tomorrow!

NoVa Sk8r

05-17-2006, 01:30 PM

jazzpants

05-17-2006, 01:34 PM

I did congratulate MusicSkateFan! :twisted:AHEM!!! You know who she's talking about NoVa.... :twisted: (And be careful, NoVa. My secondary coach says that my perimeter forward crossovers pattern is looking pretty darn good now. I'd love to see yours soon... :twisted: )

BTW: I'm on the fence about the pairs thing too...

lovepairs

05-17-2006, 02:14 PM

Thank you, DebbieS! We'll let you know how it turns out.

Best,
Lovepairs and Pairsman2

NoVa Sk8r

05-17-2006, 03:10 PM

LoopLoop and Nova, it has been fun arguing back and forth about this, and even though we disagree about a lot of stuff--I'm so glad that we can all remain Pairs Friends! Will we be seeing you in Hackensack?No Hack' for me this year. I will have just gotten back from Europe, and a much-needed break/rest will be in order.

e-skater

05-17-2006, 06:16 PM

You know, NoVa (since you brought that thread up), given your lengthy posts on the importance of passing Bronze moves, it might be nice to offer some sort of recognition when someone you know passes that test.

I did congratulate MusicSkateFan! :twisted:

I get so behind reading SF. Then I made the mistake of trying to read this thread. My word! Look at all that's going on about GC!!!!!

Without stepping on any toes, as I see the opinions coming down on both sides of the pair thing, as well as all the other rule changes, is USFS planning on changing any of this soon? I guess we're all going to have to adapt! RIGHT?! I noticed even the ice dance test rules had changed, and I'm planning on testing ice dance in 9-06. Oh well. Guess I better get crackin' as you can't count on that 3rd pattern any more to even out any glitches and get you a "pass". :twisted:

Yes this is off topic. And not really about GC. But it was in this thread. This is what my beady little eyes noticed : I recall NoVa being quite persnickety about allowing Pre Bronze skaters into Adult Nats from (correct me if I'm wrong...and I could be .... ) previous threads.

Sure looks like you, NoVa, might have overlooked an acquaintance's accomplishment (not "musicfan", appears you congrated on that)! After all the .... stuff .... about skaters having to prove themselves....Bronze MIF being so important. It does seem congrats are in order, but don't let me browbeat you! LOL!!! :roll: Of course, maybe you congratted in private and I don't know that.

Sorry about that :) , especially since we don't talk much (I don't talk much, period, on SF...no time) it's just that when I passed Bronze moves, I thought it was a huge accomplishment. I'm glad you weren't there to non congratulate me! LOL!!! :P

Terri C

05-17-2006, 06:17 PM

(And we all had to suffer thru the interminable pre-bronze discussions.)

NoVa,
I have two things to say to you. First of all, I think you're attitude about how important it is to have passed the moves tests to compete at AN is hysterical, given your lack of underpush on forward crossovers and the fact that it took you THREE tries to pass Silver moves!!

Second of all.....

** *****!!!!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:
[Edited for insulting language - Isk8NYC]

NoVa Sk8r

05-17-2006, 07:04 PM

NoVa,
I have two things to say to you. First of all, I think you're attitude about how important it is to have passed the moves tests to compete at AN is hysterical, given your lack of underpush on forward crossovers and the fact that it took you THREE tries to pass Silver moves!!And yet I did pass my moves and do qualify for AN unlike, um, you, who apparently spends more time *talking* and *typing* and *complaining* about skating rather than skating itself.

ETA: Not only that, but forward crossovers are hardly even on the silver moves test (they are at the beginning of the 8-step, which--looking at all my moves sheets here--I passed each time). To be sure, I first took this test in July '04, took it again in Sept. '04, then passed it in Nov. '04. That's only a 4-month span. Not too shabby. It was the FO-BI 3-turns in the field that did me in the first 2 times (the dreaded BI 3's).

And honestly, you (pre-bronze) giving me advice on skating would be like me (silver level) giving advice to a master-level skater. It's useless and gratuitous.

Sorry for the ire and calumny.

lovepairs

05-17-2006, 07:35 PM

NoVa Sk8r

05-17-2006, 10:54 PM

Nova,

We are going to really miss you and LoopLoop at Hackensack--you sure you guys can't be there, because it was so much fun last summer! :P

Okay, have a really great skate in Oberstdorf, and if you feel energized by your skate in Germany, then come play with us in Hackensack. It might be good for you and LoopLoop to have some "non-pressured" playtime on the ice together. Think about it--it would be so much fun to have you two there!!!

Have a really great time in Europe!It would be great to go back for a 3rd year in a row. Unfortunately, I have personal bizness that I need to take care of here. (Not only that, but since I work for a weekly magazine and the workweek after the camp is the Fourth of July week, I have tight deadlines and will probably have to work late on that last Friday in June, thereby complicating my travel plans.)

I am happy to report that Loops and I had a fabu skate session tonight.
While I'm not to sure about our sbs double rockers, our throws were high, our pair spins were fast and furious and centered (and the postions we achieved! who knew we could do some of those?! Dmitriev, eat your heart out! 8-) ), and our sbs spins were nicely in sync (and without ever having taken a pair test! Hee hee hee :P ). It's nice to know the well has not run dry. ...