Governing Council

[NoVa Sk8r]

Info is up on USFS site.
http://usfsa.org/event_details.asp?id=32955

Check out:
Addendum A to Adult Committee Proposal (http://usfsa.org/content/events/200506/governingcouncil/Addendum%20A%20to%20Adult%20proposal%202.pdf)
(Eek! A maximum of only *two* spins for silver level?! :( )

2006 GC Requests for Action - Technical Group (http://usfsa.org/content/events/200506/governingcouncil/TECHNICAL%20GROUP.pdf)

[mskater]

Wow, you called it Nova, only up to 2-loop for Gold Level. Will be interesting to see who decides to level up in order to compete a full arsenal of doubles...

I'm going to have to re-do some of my spins so that I don't get deducted for insufficient revs, yikes!

[NoVa Sk8r]

I'll help you with those spins if you help me with the axel!!!

[jazzpants]

(Eek! A maximum of only *two* spins for silver level?! :( )
Same with Bronze too!!! Not happy at all about it. (This is for cases where I can skate up...)

*sigh* Time to go into ice dancing!!! :roll: Any guy out there wanna do the Dutch waltz with me? :giveup: (I hate jumps!!!)

[LoopLoop]

If there are items you disagree with, please let people who can do something about it know! Tony Conte, other members of the adult committee, your own club's board members who will be either attending GC or giving proxies to others... These are all going to be voted on, so make your opinions known to the people who will be representing you.

[Joan]

I'm happy they are limiting the number of jump elements and spins. Otherwise, there is a temptation, especially with IJS, to pack the program with elements and the programs may end up looking too busy and rushed, with not enough actual skating and flow inbetween elements. I also like the idea of being rewarded for holding fewer spins for more revolutions than more spins for fewer revolutions.

[FrankR]

I agree with Joan on this one. It sounds okay to me. I'm looking forward to having time to actually hold spins and stuff like spirals, eagles and bauers as opposed to rushing to the next jump or spin because I have to do a ton of each of them to rack up the points.

The other interesting bit about the proposal is that it looks like they are requiring everyone in masters to do an axel AND a combination. Below masters and above bronze they say that the jump elements may include an axel and they allow for combinations. However for masters level they say that the jump elements MUST include an axel and AT LEAST one combination. I guess for masters level skaters this isn't a big deal but I just find it interesting that they're putting it in writing that they expect at least these two items to be completed.

[NoVa Sk8r]

I'm happy they are limiting the number of jump elements and spins. Otherwise, there is a temptation, especially with IJS, to pack the program with elements and the programs may end up looking too busy and rushed, with not enough actual skating and flow inbetween elements. I also like the idea of being rewarded for holding fewer spins for more revolutions than more spins for fewer revolutions.Maybe, but the Request for Action states that "If this proposal passes, the adult free skate (singles and pairs) and dance Well-Balanced Program requirements (see Addendum A) would be modified in order for judging to be in line with principles of the IJS." The well-balanced program requirements would likely be changed to match what is in the O'dorf competition.

[LoopLoop]

My issue is with the spin limit in silver. The current well-balanced program requirements say a MINIMUM of three spins, and now they're changing it to a MAXIMUM of two. But allowing five jump elements, which seems to really benefit the jumpers over the spinners.

About the jump combinations: every level specifies that there must be AT LEAST ONE jump combination or sequence.

There's something else I didn't notice which applies to every level as well: Jumps may be repeated only once and only in combination and/or sequences. That means that if you did a loop-loop combination, you couldn't do a lutz-loop, for example. Or if you did lutz-loop-loop as your one allowed three-jump combination, you couldn't do another loop anywhere in your program. They implemented this rule for juvenile and up this year on standard track (but for doubles, not singles).

[skaternum]

My issue is with the spin limit in silver. The current well-balanced program requirements say a MINIMUM of three spins, and now they're changing it to a MAXIMUM of two. But allowing five jump elements, which seems to really benefit the jumpers over the spinners.I don't have a problem with that. :)

[Joan]

Maybe, but the Request for Action states that "If this proposal passes, the adult free skate (singles and pairs) and dance Well-Balanced Program requirements (see Addendum A) would be modified in order for judging to be in line with principles of the IJS." The well-balanced program requirements would likely be changed to match what is in the O'dorf competition.

I think this means that program requirements of Gold and above will be adjusted away from the addendum A description, because they will be judged by IJS, whereas Silver and below, which are still judged by 6.0, will have the addendum A requirements (if they are passed). Is that how you also interpret this passage? In any case, as a Bronze level skater, I'll be glad to not feel compelled to have more than 4 jump elements and 2 spins in a 1'40" program.

[Joan]

About the jump combinations: every level specifies that there must be AT LEAST ONE jump combination or sequence.

There's something else I didn't notice which applies to every level as well: Jumps may be repeated only once and only in combination and/or sequences. That means that if you did a loop-loop combination, you couldn't do a lutz-loop, for example. Or if you did lutz-loop-loop as your one allowed three-jump combination, you couldn't do another loop anywhere in your program. They implemented this rule for juvenile and up this year on standard track (but for doubles, not singles).

OK, I agree that could be a problem...

[LoopLoop]

I don't have a problem with that. :)
Of course you wouldn't.:P

[FrankR]

My issue is with the spin limit in silver. The current well-balanced program requirements say a MINIMUM of three spins, and now they're changing it to a MAXIMUM of two. But allowing five jump elements, which seems to really benefit the jumpers over the spinners.

I think this is also geared for the new judging system despite the fact that whether or not this passes, silver skaters will still be judged under the 6.0 system. Single jumps are worth less when compared to spins, especially if they have added features which increase their level. By capping the number of spins allowed, I think that perhaps they're trying to ensure we won't see programs where we have a bunch of spins and just a few jumps under the NJS.

However, I think that jumps have been limited to a certain extent as well. Under this addendum, you would only be allowed to repeat jumps (whether they're singles, doubles or triples) once and one of those two attempts must be in combination (almost like a Zayak rule for singles and doubles so to speak). That's going to limit the number of jumps a skater can try anway.

Edited to add: I didn't notice that Loops edited her post as well. My apologies for the redundant redundancies. :P

[jazzpants]

I'm happy they are limiting the number of jump elements and spins. Otherwise, there is a temptation, especially with IJS, to pack the program with elements and the programs may end up looking too busy and rushed, with not enough actual skating and flow inbetween elements. I also like the idea of being rewarded for holding fewer spins for more revolutions than more spins for fewer revolutions.True, I give you that. I'd MUCH rather hold my sit spins a LOT longer!!!

However... my issue with it has to do with choreography. If I was skating up to Bronze and I have a test program with three spins, I would have to figure out something to put where my third spin is... (But I am glad for the jump restrictions though.) :P

Then again, I'm not competing 'til my Bronze tests are pass and then I'm doing a brand spankin' new competitive program!!! What am I complaining about??? 8O :twisted: :P :halo: :lol:

[LoopLoop]

Maybe the two spins for Bronze is a good idea. But per these guidelines, the only difference in the number of elements between Bronze and Silver would be one jump element. With 30 additional seconds I think Silver can handle the additional spin without cluttering up the programs too much.

[NoVa Sk8r]

Also, there is a maximum of five different single jump elements, which may include the axel. With toe loop, salchow, loop, flip, lutz, and axel, one of these jumps has to be chacked. Ok, so I cannot do an axel, so it's no real problem for me. :P

(ETA: Thanx for the explanation skaternum. I would have this read as "jump passes.")

[skaternum]

I actually like the limitations on jumps. Notice that they restrict you to 5 jump elements. A combo is a "jump element." A sequence is a "jump element." A jump in isolation is a "jump element." This means that at silver, to get max jump points, I could do 3 combos/sequences and only 2 jumps in isolation. This is actually LESS than what I've done and seen in silver competitions under the current rules.

As for the spins, I think it's interesting. I'd love to see a couple of 2- or 3- position spins, with each position recognizable and held for at least 3 revs. We're sure not seeing THAT across the board at silver these days.

For comparison, my last silver program had (reaching way back in the memory bank):

Jumps
salchow
flip
lutz
loop-loop combo
lutz-loop combo
flip- falling leaf- toe sequence

Spins
camel-sit
back spin
front attitude spin
sit

The front attitude spin really counts as an upright spin.

So I had 6 jump elements and 4 spins. Under the proposed rules, I'd have to lose a jump and rearrange my spins so I have 2 combo spins instead. Not that big a deal to me. I think this will actually benefit strong spinners, because you can jam all your positions into points-grabbing combos with changes of feet. Those of us who are spinning challenged (we like to think of it as "rotationally disabled") will be stuck with eeking out a few points for spins in isolation or one-footed combos.

[Debbie S]

With 30 additional seconds I think Silver can handle the additional spin without cluttering up the programs too much.I agree, Loops, there should be more separating Bronze from Silver (unless someone thinks the extra spin would be an deterrant to Bronze skaters wanting to move up. :??

Nothing about Pre-Bronze, so I guess their requirements stay the same? That's interesting, considering Pre-Bronze currently allows a max of 3 spins. Please, no snarky comments about Pre-Bronze not being a real level - we've been through that enough on the other thread....

I see the spin restrictions in Bronze and Silver as a real problem as far as the test for each level is concerned. Right now, the Bronze test requires 3 spins (and I assume the Silver one is the same - sorry, I'm not that familiar with the Silver test, since I pretty much have no hope of ever getting there). It seems odd (and a serious conflict) to require more spins for the test than you would be allowed to do in comp. (and if the test requirements get changed, who else wants to vote for elimination of the backspin? :) )

I guess the jump restrictions will benefit the non-jumpers like me ;) , but there goes my idea of having a loop-loop combo and a solo loop later on in a Bronze program (to load up my program as much as I can since I don't have a lutz). I guess it'll have to be the loop-loop and 2 flips, with one of the flips in a combo - yikes, I better get cracking on that flip!

Personally, I don't see why program requirements for Silver level and below should be changed at all, since we're not going to be judged under IJS.

[skaternum]

As for the pairs elements, I think they should allow 2 pair spins for gold, but really ... I don't care. I think, for most of the pairs, we try to put into our program things we can do. If David & I don't meet the well-balanced program minimums, we get dinged and move on. We're not trying to maximize our points, or win medals, or kick Paul & Judy's a**es. :lol: We're just trying to NOT KILL OURSELVES, not look TOO stupid, and to have fun. I realize others feel differently, but I just don't get worked up over the pairs requirements. Lots of us at the Gold level are there because of our old freestyle tests (or our partner's 20 year old freestyle test -- curse him!), not because of our Gold pairs tests. Lots of us are there by accident, so we just read the rules and then say, "That's nice, but what can WE do?" 8-)

[cecealias]

The new restrictions make it look like fewer spins than jumps, but with required number of revolutions, that's definitely asking for quality over quantity. I think when people are learning their spins, it's more difficult to have a consistent 3 revolutions in each position than to have a 1 or 2 revolution. Also by limiting jump elements, it prevents lopsided development of certain jumps. I've seen skaters with good lutz-loops but terrible toe loops just because they weren't valued as much at their level.

In the long run I think the competitve restrictions will help develop a more balanced skater with emphasis on balanced development and quality over quantity at each level.

[Isk8NYC]

Lots of us at the Gold level are there because of our old freestyle tests (or our partner's 20 year old freestyle test -- curse him!), not because of our Gold pairs tests. Lots of us are there by accident, so we just read the rules and then say, "That's nice, but what can WE do?" 8-)

Interesting - ISI will let you "step down" a level if you find you can't compete at the highest test level. The rule was designed for returning skaters. You have to advise them that you want that to happen, of course.

[skaternum]

I'm confused by the wording. It gives minimum test requirements (such as Gold tests or Juvenile tests) for both partners, then it says: "However, any one of the partners may have passed higher tests such as the standard intermediate pairs test, ... OR any of the repsective intermediate, novice ... free skate tests." Emphasis added is mine.

So is this saying that a pairs team where both skaters are true masters skaters (both pased intermediate pairs or freeskate or above) can't compete in the championship event? :?:

Does this mean you could compete if you're:
gold-gold
gold-masters

But you can't compete if you're:
masters-masters
??

[skaternum]

Interesting - ISI will let you "step down" a level if you find you can't compete at the highest test level. The rule was designed for returning skaters. You have to advise them that you want that to happen, of course.Not in USFSA. You're bound by your highest test passed, regardless of when you took it. Mind you, they probably have no way of checking on it if it was a long time ago, but that's the theory. My partner passed his juvenile freeskating test over 20 years ago, before pre-prelimnary or pre-juvenile even existed. It was so long ago, he couldn't even remember what level he'd passed. (Okay, those of you who know him know that he probably couldn't remember what he had for breakfast, but I digress...) USFSA HQ ad no record of him passing freeskating tests. But because we're honest and want to do the right thing, we put a lot of effort into digging up his old test records with his club and had them submitted to USFSA. Not everyone necessarily goes to those lengths, but you're supposed to identify your old test levels and compete at the appropriate level.

The fact that there are age brackets in USFSA helps mitigate the effect of this. Most of the people in Gold age class IV didn't JUST pass their Juvenile freeskate. Most of them probably passed it years ago, so it sort of levels things out.

[Joan]

I'm confused by the wording. It gives minimum test requirements (such as Gold tests or Juvenile tests) for both partners, then it says: "However, any one of the partners may have passed higher tests such as the standard intermediate pairs test, ... OR any of the repsective intermediate, novice ... free skate tests." Emphasis added is mine.

So is this saying that a pairs team where both skaters are true masters skaters (both pased intermediate pairs or freeskate or above) can't compete in the championship event? :?:

Does this mean you could compete if you're:
gold-gold
gold-masters

But you can't compete if you're:
masters-masters
??


It is worded very poorly, but I think it means that to compete at Masters Pairs level, both of the skaters must have passed Gold pairs or freestyle, or juvenile pairs or freestyle as a minimum requirement and that having passed higher tests is fine. What is confusing about the wording is that is sounds like a pair where both have tested higher than Gold or Juvenile is ineligible, or if you started as a silver pairs and then tested up to gold pairs, you would be ineligible. I don't think these are the intended meanings, however. Hopefully the wording will be fixed at Governing Council.

[NoVa Sk8r]

My issue is with the spin limit in silver. The current well-balanced program requirements say a MINIMUM of three spins, and now they're changing it to a MAXIMUM of two. But allowing five jump elements, which seems to really benefit the jumpers over the spinners.I agree with Loops (now that's one for the record! :P ). I think it should be amended to read at least two, but no more than three, spins.

And in gold level, I think the spin requirment should require a flying spin and combination spin.

[Terri C]

It seems odd (and a serious conflict) to require more spins for the test than you would be allowed to do in comp. (and if the test requirements get changed, who else wants to vote for elimination of the backspin? :) )

Nooo, not my beloved backspin!!!
This is interesting to read since I just finished my new freeskate today and maybe, just maybe I can use this as a way to get rid of the second sitspin in my program!

[TimDavidSkate]

I'm more in favor of this new proposed system. I'm glad I dont have to rush into squeezing the final spin at the end of the program. There's more room to breathe and stretch. I hope it comes through.

[TimDavidSkate]

That means that if you did a loop-loop combination, you couldn't do a lutz-loop, for example. Or if you did lutz-loop-loop as your one allowed three-jump combination, you couldn't do another loop anywhere in your program. They implemented this rule for juvenile and up this year on standard track (but for doubles, not singles).


Does it mean if I would do a: Lutz/Loop/Loop, I would not be able to do a flip/loop combo later on the program and tack in a solo single loop?

[Joan]

Does it mean if I would do a: Lutz/Loop/Loop, I would not be able to do a flip/loop combo later on the program and tack in a solo single loop?

That's how I understand it....

For those of us in lower levels who only have singles to work with ;) , this may be a bit restrictive. But otherwise, I think this proposal is good. My jumps are better than my spins, so I'm glad to be limited to two spins. The trick for me will be to get more than 3 revs on those spins :roll:

[flying~camel]

Since we'll only be able to do 2 spins now, my coach has me working on flying camel-back sit-forward sit and camel-sit-back sit (I'm in Bronze) 8O

I'm thinking for jumps, I'll have to do flip-loop, lutz-toe, loop and flip-1/2 loop-salchow.

[Thin-Ice]

Let's not rush this; it is only a proposal so far. And if you like it, that's great. But if you don't, make sure your delegate(s) at Governing Council know how it will change your skating.

I'm not all that crazy about it.. but probably because spinning is my stronger suit.. and I can see my coach deciding I should do more footwork -- which is harder for me.

I'm also a bit confused on the limit that suggests we might only be able to do a jump once... kind of tough on the Bronze skaters. I had 3 jump combinations/sequences in my program this year and 2 solo jumps for a total of 11 jumps. But I'm sure we'll all adapt if it passes.

[sexysk8er]

The new Adult WBP requirements are to be implemented only if the ISU judging systems is voted to be phased in 2007. We arehoping for the Champ. events and Gold & Higher. But we will see. This new system is very complicated in terms of an additional technical panel and the accounting processes behind the scenes. Skaters will have to send in their program content in adance so it can be entered into the computer.

The goal is to have all of the events phased in over the next 2-3 years. So, therefore, all of the program requirements will change so that skaters have the time to prepare themselves for what will impact them even if it at a later date (i.e Bronze & SIlver too).

As for the revisions themselves. The ISU judging system judges the both QUALITY and EXECUTION of elements. There are actually two judging panels. The Technical Panel is calling the element and saying -- YES - Toe loop jump or YES - Combo spin with 3/3/3 revolutions. If the element is not performed or as required -- it gets ZERO points. So spins with 1 rev or 2 revs get ZERO points. Spiral sequences held for less than 3 seconds get zero points, etc.. as per the rules. If adouble jump is cheated, it gets downgraded in points right down to a single level. So, skaters are not rewarded for cheat double jumps.

We will post the rules so people are familiar with what is expected.

The Judging panel is judging QUALITY. So if your lutz jump is high and beautiful with nice run-out and flow, the Grade of Execution (GOE) goes up to add points to the base mark. By the same token, if your jump is scratchy or bad, it is marked down with a negative GOE with a deduction off the base value. Every element has point value with Base mark. You can check these out on www. isu.org - Scale of Values.

Spins, in general, count more than single jumps. That is why Johnny Weir and Stephane Lambiel do well, beacuse there are more opportunities to enhance spin difficulty with positions, variations, speed, changes of edge, etc....

Anyway, the new system is trying to emphasize QUALITY of elements, EXECUTION, and overal skating skills. There are FIVE marks for the Components -- so these are a lot of areas where adults who skate well can really shine. So work on your MIF because that will help you as well.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.:yum:

[Mel On Ice]

Also note that if you do opt to do extra jumps and spins in your program, they will probably count (but not as a jump or spin) as a transitional footwork.

Then you have to ask yourself if you want quality footwork in place of an extra toe loop?

I have to wait to see if this passes, since I have 5 jump passes and 3 spins in my program. Kind of nice to have to remove some elements to give me more space to work on other things within the program.

[sexysk8er]

As for the messages about the jumps.

In a program, you could do:
Lutz - Loop - Loop
Loop (alone

Or

Lutz- toe loop - toe loop
Toe Loop (alone)

You just cannot repeat the jump again in another combo. But you can always do the jump alone and then again in combo.

Some people tend to add toe loop jumps to stablize themselves in combinations. SO you are limited. Remember, this is not meant to be a jump fest.

The IJS rewards skaters who can SPIN, JUMP and SKATE well.
:(

[FrankR]

As for the messages about the jumps.

In a program, you could do:
Lutz - Loop - Loop
Loop (alone



I'm not so clear about this. The way I interpreted the addendum is that you may repeat jumps only once and if you do choose to repeat a jump, it must be in combination. So, if you do lutz/loop/loop. You have already repeated the loop. It just happened to have been repeated within a single jump element. If I interpreted that correctly (and I'm not sure I did), then you may not do a loop by itself later in the program. I suppose if this addendum passes it will be worded more clearly in the rulebook. I hope so at any rate. 8O :??

[sunshinepointe]

All I wanna know is how you get on the Governing Council - the Coronado Springs resort is so much fun! :twisted:

As a non-competitor I can see both sides to the argument - but I think that by changing the rules it'll sort of force people to get creative with what they can do and give time to actually PRESENT each element rather than "do as much as you can in the time allowed".

I will say that for me though, these rules drive me even further away from ever competing lol. :giveup:

[flo]

Too often the requirements have little to do with the reality of the skaters. When I competed in masters pairs we did two death spirals, a platter-star and other elements, which are now not allowed in gold. The strange thing is that neither one of us has changed a test level, and if we were to compete together now we couldn't do these additional elements. The rules keep rotating around us. I do think that only one pair spin and one death spiral in gold is pretty limiting.

[Hannahclear]

Hmmmmm....I can see the justification for two spins in bronze, but not in silver. The limit of 3 seems good enough for a 2:10 program.

I currently have 3 spins in my bronze program (I skate up), but I wouldn't mind going down to 2. :halo: I'd ditch that crappy travelling scratch spin at the end and work up to a back camel/back sit......maybe even change to forward sit. That might work very well.

But who knows if it will really happen, just a proposal at this point. I'd be surprised if silver wound up with such a restriction.

[sexysk8er]

As for the Pairs elements -- just because it used to be thatdoesn't mean that was best for the adult skaters.

Take a look at an Olympic Pairs Short Program -- 2:40 -- they do 1 death spiral, one jump combo, one pair spin, one solo jump, one solo spin, etc.They skate with power and speed and nice stroking.

To do elements well, you need nice entries, nice exits, spins held for more than 1 or 2 revs, etc. This all stems from the emphasis on QUALITY.:yum:
I hope that makes sense to everyone.

It is not about running around from element to element like we are in a race.

[NoVa Sk8r]

As for the Pairs elements -- just because it used to be thatdoesn't mean that was best for the adult skaters.

Take a look at an Olympic Pairs Short Program -- 2:40 -- they do 1 death spiral, one jump combo, one pair spin, one solo jump, one solo spin, etc.They skate with power and speed and nice stroking.True; but the gold pairs program is 3:10, and some might consider adult programs to be more like the long programs.

[sk8pics]

I'm not so clear about this. The way I interpreted the addendum is that you may repeat jumps only once and if you do choose to repeat a jump, it must be in combination. So, if you do lutz/loop/loop. You have already repeated the loop. It just happened to have been repeated within a single jump element. If I interpreted that correctly (and I'm not sure I did), then you may not do a loop by itself later in the program. I suppose if this addendum passes it will be worded more clearly in the rulebook. I hope so at any rate. 8O :??

I think FrankR is right about this. If you want to do a 3-jump combination with 2 loop jumps in it, fine, but then you can't do another loop jump in the program. I'll have to go read more about this; I have to confess I haven't studied these proposals in much detail.

[TimDavidSkate]

So next combination should be a (for example) Flip/ToeLoop then maybe a sequence of jumps? I dont do sequences, does anybody have any examples :halo:


I wish they would bump the Silver program time to 2:15

[NoVa Sk8r]

I'm not so clear about this. The way I interpreted the addendum is that you may repeat jumps only once and if you do choose to repeat a jump, it must be in combination. So, if you do lutz/loop/loop. You have already repeated the loop. It just happened to have been repeated within a single jump element. If I interpreted that correctly (and I'm not sure I did), then you may not do a loop by itself later in the program. I suppose if this addendum passes it will be worded more clearly in the rulebook. I hope so at any rate. 8O :??I suspect that the wording here (as well as in many other places; there's lots of sloppiness and nonsensical wording in that document) will be clarified. If you do a lutz/loop/loop, I think another single loop would be fine. Let's hope that clarity comes on all these issues.

On a related note, I hope that since some of these changes stem, in part, from the ISU and the NJS, the rules will more closely resemble the Code of Points.
To wit, at the Grand Prix Final, Mao Asada (http://www.isufs.org/results/gpf0506/GPF0506_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf) did:
-3Lo/2Lo/2Lo
-3F/2Lo
-3Lz/2Lo

and was not penalized for repeating the loop jumps.

[TimDavidSkate]

I suspect that the wording here (as well as in many other places; there's lots of sloppiness and nonsensical wording in that document) will be clarified. If you do a lutz/loop/loop, I think another single loop would be fine. Let's hope that clarity comes on all these issues.

On a related note, I hope that since some of these changes stem, in part, from the ISU and the NJS, the rules will more closely resemble the Code of Points.
To wit, at the Grand Prix Final, Mao Asada (http://www.isufs.org/results/gpf0506/GPF0506_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf) did:
-3Lo/2Lo/2Lo
-3F/2Lo
-3Lz/2Lo

and was not penalized for repeating the loop jumps.



Ahhh, so I can still do Lu/Lo/Lo and Fli/Lo :?:

[rlichtefeld]

I suspect that the wording here (as well as in many other places; there's lots of sloppiness and nonsensical wording in that document) will be clarified. If you do a lutz/loop/loop, I think another single loop would be fine. Let's hope that clarity comes on all these issues.


The wording will only be changed if a delegate gets up at Governing Council and makes an amendment to the proposal. Otherwise, it goes into the rulebook as written.

So, contact your club's delegates and have them work on this. I can't go this year, since I agreed to do flo's club's gala that is the same weekend. However, I've been talking to my club's delegates.

Or, if we can get the Adult Committee to make changes to the proposal.

Rob

[Spreadeagle]

I'm confused by the wording. It gives minimum test requirements (such as Gold tests or Juvenile tests) for both partners, then it says: "However, any one of the partners may have passed higher tests such as the standard intermediate pairs test, ... OR any of the repsective intermediate, novice ... free skate tests." Emphasis added is mine.

So is this saying that a pairs team where both skaters are true masters skaters (both pased intermediate pairs or freeskate or above) can't compete in the championship event? :?:

Does this mean you could compete if you're:
gold-gold
gold-masters

But you can't compete if you're:
masters-masters
??
No, I don't think it actually means this. The wording is a little confusing--instead of saying "any one" it might have been better to say "any one or both". I think they're just trying to say that the minimum requirements for both skaters must be Gold but either the lady or the man or both could have also passed higher tests.

[Spreadeagle]

I suspect that the wording here (as well as in many other places; there's lots of sloppiness and nonsensical wording in that document) will be clarified. If you do a lutz/loop/loop, I think another single loop would be fine. Let's hope that clarity comes on all these issues.

On a related note, I hope that since some of these changes stem, in part, from the ISU and the NJS, the rules will more closely resemble the Code of Points.
To wit, at the Grand Prix Final, Mao Asada (http://www.isufs.org/results/gpf0506/GPF0506_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf) did:
-3Lo/2Lo/2Lo
-3F/2Lo
-3Lz/2Lo

and was not penalized for repeating the loop jumps.
But at the senior level, you only get penalized for repeating triple or quad jumps and there's no limit on doubles or singles. It looks like she did only 1 triple loop, but the rest of the loops were doubles. This is well within the rules.

[NoVa Sk8r]

But at the senior level, you only get penalized for repeating triple or quad jumps and there's no limit on doubles or singles. It looks like she did only 1 triple loop, but the rest of the loops were doubles. This is well within the rules.I know she was within the rules. My point was that she repeated the loop jump many times.
Such a tight stricture should not be placed on the adults, IMO (especially since, at least in silver level, only 2 spins are proposed).

[dcden]

I know she was within the rules. My point was that she repeated the loop jump many times.
Such a tight stricture should not be placed on the adults, IMO (especially since, at least in silver level, only 2 spins are proposed).
Are you saying that, if the stricture is in place, that the adults' programs will all start to look the same? I'm honestly a little behind everyone on this thread, so I haven't studied the proposal or the discussion here in-depth.

FWIW when I was in Silver I did 6 jump passes, 3 spins, and 1 step sequence which covered about 1/2 the rink. SO I would have been outside of the rules as in the proposal.

[rlichtefeld]

All I wanna know is how you get on the Governing Council - the Coronado Springs resort is so much fun! :twisted:


You can be a delegate if you are over 18, a full member of USFS, and are selected by your club.

The delegates have already been selected this year and their names turned into USFS. Each club gets a number of delegates to represent them based on their membership size. The specifics are in the rulebook.

Our club gets 5 delegates this year. I have attended the 2001 and 2003 GCs. I am a delegate for our club, but can't go. So, I am giving one of the other people going my proxy, to vote in my stead.

But, as to fun... The meetings are very detailed, and long. They can also be a bit boring because of all the gyrations of Roberts Rules of Order. However, you do get to meet quite a few big shots in USFS and the skaters send their representatives.

Rob

[Spreadeagle]

I know she was within the rules. My point was that she repeated the loop jump many times.
Such a tight stricture should not be placed on the adults, IMO (especially since, at least in silver level, only 2 spins are proposed).
OK, sorry I did not understand you originally. I thought you were saying that Mao Asada broke the rules but was not penalized.

Anyway, I actually don't think the proposals are any stricter than they are for other levels that are already using the ISU judging system (or Code of Points or NJS or whatever is your preferred name). At the senior level, you can only have 7 jumping passes and 4 spins. Silver and Bronze are not even close to senior level, so the requirements of 5/4 jumping passes and 2 spins are right in line when compared to the requirements for other levels.

By limiting jumps and spins, you will make the jumps and spins that you are allowed to do, be better quality jumps and spins. You can stay in your spin position longer and add some changes of position. In my opinion, this will actually benefit those who are better spinners because they can do a variety of positions and edges, and hold them for longer, and get more points for the spin as well as a higher GOE.

It will also place a greater emphasis on the in-between skating. I also feel this is a good thing.

In my Silver program I had 6 jumping passes, only 2 jumps were repeated (in combination), and 3 spins as well as circular footwork and lots of connecting steps/spirals/spreadeagles/inas. My program was exactly 2:10 and I always felt completely rushed. I never had enough time to really hold the positions in the combo spin at the end. I would feel extremely relieved to have to only do 5 passes and 2 spins. It would allow me to finish with the music! Just my opinion.

[FrankR]

Such a tight stricture should not be placed on the adults, IMO (especially since, at least in silver level, only 2 spins are proposed).

I understand this sentiment but I'm actually okay with the addendum. While it is true that they are placing limitations on spins and to a certain degree limiting the jumps as well, there is more to a program than the jumps and spins. I see this as an opportunity to be able to dedicate more time to footwork and connecting steps as well as work at refining the jumps and spins that I do get to do in the program. Having said that, I don't really think it's a secret that my jumps are my strength at the moment but I'm willing to back off on putting them in my program if I can raise the level of the other aspects of my skating.

[kitkat]

I am understanding this the same as Frank R. said earlier...that you can only repeat a jump once no matter what. So Lutz loop loop combo and then a solo loop would not be within the rules any longer.

If so, it could be a good thing. There are really way too many loops being tacked on to jumps in Bronze and Silver levels in my opinion.

[flo]

Sexyskater,
The afore mentioned program was 2:40 - then the master's time. It was hardly a "race from element to element". It was a lyrical program with quality extensions and elements, and placed 2nd in master pairs. The pair above us had a double split twist, and overheads, and the pair below us was also very strong with sbs axels and throw axels. My point is that this was accomplished, and accomplished well in a 2:40 program with now gold level pairs. In can be done, and done well in a 3:10 program.

[NoVa Sk8r]

Anyway, I actually don't think the proposals are any stricter than they are for other levels that are already using the ISU judging system (or Code of Points or NJS or whatever is your preferred name). At the senior level, you can only have 7 jumping passes and 4 spins. Silver and Bronze are not even close to senior level, so the requirements of 5/4 jumping passes and 2 spins are right in line when compared to the requirements for other levels.

By limiting jumps and spins, you will make the jumps and spins that you are allowed to do, be better quality jumps and spins. You can stay in your spin position longer and add some changes of position. In my opinion, this will actually benefit those who are better spinners because they can do a variety of positions and edges, and hold them for longer, and get more points for the spin as well as a higher GOE.

It will also place a greater emphasis on the in-between skating. I also feel this is a good thing.The problem is that the NJS will not be used for silver and below next year (or maybe not even the year after). But I guess the goal is to eventually use it so these changes are for the interim. What I mean is that it's nice to say that spins with a vairety of postions and features will be rewarded, but in the 6.0 system, they aren't given their due.

My other problem is that most people I know or whom I have seen have already been doing 4 or 5 jump passes. So the new rule change won't affect this at all. That is, it looks like the spins are getting picked on. As a spinner, I do not like this! But honestly, whatever changes are made, I'll be happy to adjust to. Actually, spins are worth so much more than single jumps that Isuspect this rule was put in as an equalizer. A single jump is worth anywhere from 0.4-0.8, but a level 1 change combination spin (CCoSp1) is worth 2.0 points (nearly the same as doing axel/toe and flip/loop). Again, it's this interim period that will hurt.

I am excited about competing in O'dorf--but I had to ramp up my program to make it CoP-friendly. I had to 'uglify' my spins in order to get higher level. Instead of doing a nice camel/back sit, I'm now doing back camel/donut (catch foot)/back spin (either sit or scratch) w/change of edge. It ain't pretty, but it's level 3. :P

[FrankR]

If so, it could be a good thing. There are really way too many loops being tacked on to jumps in Bronze and Silver levels in my opinion.

I agree and I've been such an offender when it comes to this particular item. :lol: In 2004, as a bronze skater, I did lutz/toe/loop, flip/toe/loop and split/loop/loop all within the first minute or so of the program. If I had it to do over again I would have done fewer loops. :P

[kitkat]

That's pretty funny Frank. I think I have been an offender myself, though maybe not as much as you ;) !

[daisies]

I am understanding this the same as Frank R. said earlier...that you can only repeat a jump once no matter what. So Lutz loop loop combo and then a solo loop would not be within the rules any longer.
Hey everyone ... YES, this is correct.

If you do a lutz-loop-loop, you have used up your "repeated" loop. If you do another loop, it won't count in your score but it WILL count in your jump-elements tally, and you will have wasted a jumping pass.

Regarding Mao or any other Senior-level skater, the WBP requirement at the level is that a skater can only repeat two TRIPLE or QUAD jumps. For our adult-skating purposes, though, it's ANY jump.

[manleywoman]

The new Adult WBP requirements are to be implemented only if the ISU judging systems is voted to be phased in 2007. We are hoping for the Champ. events and Gold & Higher. But we will see.
This is what I'm hoping for.

[Frumpy]

This is long, but please bear with me...

As a person who is moving up to Silver, I really don't get a warm-fuzzy about the Silver restrictions. In particular:

- "MAXIMUM of TWO spins"....why don't they make it a maximum of 3 spins and a minimum of 2? What makes Silver different than Bronze then, other than more time?

- "Jumps may be repeated only once and ONLY in combination and/or sequences." What EXACTLY does that mean? The way I read it, if you do a lutz-loop-loop, you've used up your "loop" allowance COMPLETELY. Or does it mean that you can do a loop by itself, and then repeat the loop as long as it is in a combination? (Ex.#1 Could you still do a single loop by itself, and a flip-loop and a lutz-loop-loop; or do you have to downgrade at least one of the combinations to a toe-loop?) (Ex.#2 Are you limited to say a lutz-loop-loop and a loop by itself, and the rest of the combinations can't have a loop in it?) (Ex.#3 You could do a lutz-loop and a flip-loop, but no single loop by itself.) I really hope that I'm reading that incorrectly.

-"Maximum of 5 jump elements." I do like that it limits you to 5 jumping passes. But, if you limit the jumping passess to 5, then why limit the spins to only 2?

-"Step sequence using 1/2 ice. Additional MITF and SPIRAL step sequences will NOT be counted as a step sequence, but will be counted as transitions and marked as such. " OUCH!!! Not good! Why bother doing a nice spiral then? Isn't that a integral part of skating? I think a well-executed and difficult spiral sequence can be just as important as footwork.

To me, these restrictions are going to make everyone's programs look the same. There would be a limited number of jump combinations everyone could do,. Everyone will have footwork and little to no spirals. And the spin limitation is a big problem, especially for people with good spins. If they are trying to keep it from being a "jumping contest", then WHY would you limit the spins to TWO????? I realize that they want people to improve the quality of the elements by limiting them, but from what I saw at Nationals, quality doesn't seem to be a problem.

(incidentally...my strength is jumps not spins. And I have both a ftwk and spiral sequence in my new program.)

Can anyone definitively clarify the jump-thing for me? I'd love to hear more opinions, as I have only been competing in USFSA for a little over 1 year. :halo:

[daisies]

"Jumps may be repeated only once and ONLY in combination and/or sequences." What EXACTLY does that mean? The way I read it, if you do a lutz-loop-loop, you've used up your "loop" allowance COMPLETELY.
Yes, this is what it means. See my post above.

Why bother doing a nice spiral then? Isn't that a integral part of skating? I think a well-executed and difficult spiral sequence can be just as important as footwork.
EDITED: I just noticed on the proposal that a spiral sequence is one of the options.

To me, these restrictions are going to make everyone's programs look the same.
LOL -- why should adult skating be any different than standard track! :frus:

[doubletoe]

As for the messages about the jumps.

In a program, you could do:
Lutz - Loop - Loop
Loop (alone

Or

Lutz- toe loop - toe loop
Toe Loop (alone)

You just cannot repeat the jump again in another combo. But you can always do the jump alone and then again in combo.

:(

That's how I read it as well, but I would love to know for sure, since I have a lutz-loop-loop and a solo loop in my new program!

[Careygram]

Aw MAN! :(
I'm a weird person who has more trouble with Dsal and Dtoe than I do with DLoop and above. Adult Gold Free is now limited. Okay, I know , I'll stop whining but I was kind of happy without the limit. Just forces me to work harder I suppose. Gold pairs seems rather limited to me but for Silver Free honestly, they should be allowed to have three spins. And all this "not to be repeated, only in sequence or combinations" yada yada yada. We're going to need foreign language interpreters. However, I guess everyone in the amateur amateur has had to go through this so I suppose it's our turn. The restrictions are a bit limiting for us as adults because we all have different strengths to bring to the table and now we're going to be "forced" to do what we have to do, not necessarily what we want to do or do best. All in all, I'm just going to skate and have fun. And if it gets too bad I'll take up sewing!

:giveup:

[doubletoe]

That's how I read it as well, but I would love to know for sure, since I have a lutz-loop-loop and a solo loop in my new program!

Oops, never mind! I'll go back up and read the posts by Daisies. . .

[Frumpy]

Thanks for the clarification on the jumps. :bow: That's a real bummer for me. I have a lutz-loop-loop and a flip-loop planned.

(I was busy writing my question while you were posting your answer, I think.):oops:

[daisies]

Thanks for the clarification on the jumps. :bow: That's a real bummer for me. I have a lutz-loop-loop and a flip-loop planned.

(I was busy writing my question while you were posting your answer, I think.):oops:
No problem! :)

[doubletoe]

Hey everyone ... YES, this is correct.

If you do a lutz-loop-loop, you have used up your "repeated" loop. If you do another loop, it won't count in your score but it WILL count in your jump-elements tally, and you will have wasted a jumping pass.

Regarding Mao or any other Senior-level skater, the WBP requirement at the level is that a skater can only repeat two TRIPLE or QUAD jumps. For our adult-skating purposes, though, it's ANY jump.

That repeated jump rule will limit us SO much more than it would limit the high level standard track skaters, since most adult skaters up through Silver level only have 5 listed jumps in their repertoire (6 if they are one of the few Silvers with an axel) and will quickly run out of jumps if they do a sequence or combination. A high level standard track skater usually has 6 singles, 6 doubles and 5 triples (6 with a triple axel), giving her a lot more jumps to mix and match without running out of jumps. For example, a skater can do a triple loop, a triple loop-double loop combination and a solo double loop in her program, for a total of 4 loops. Hypothetically, she could do 5 loops if she did a single loop as well.

[doubletoe]

One final question on the jump repetition thing. . .

Can the same jump be done twice, with both times being as part of a combination? I am thinking in particular of a toeloop or loop. So would it be okay to do a lutz-loop-toeloop and also a flip-toeloop as long as those are the only two toeloops in the program? Or does one need to be by itself? At anything higher than Bronze level, it is silly to even do a single toeloop as a solo jump. . .

[Frumpy]

That repeated jump rule will limit us SO much more than it would limit the high level standard track skaters, since most adult skaters up through Silver level only have 5 listed jumps in their repertoire ....and will quickly run out of jumps if they do a sequence or combination. A high level standard track skater usually has ... a lot more jumps to mix and match without running out of jumps.

Thank you for explaining it much better than I could. That is EXACTLY what I am concerned about!

[daisies]

One final question on the jump repetition thing. . .

Can the same jump be done twice, with both times being as part of a combination? I am thinking in particular of a toeloop or loop. So would it be okay to do a lutz-loop-toeloop and also a flip-toeloop as long as those are the only two toeloops in the program?

Yes. As long as at least one is in combo. It's OK if both are in combo.

[sk8er1964]

Hey everyone ... YES, this is correct.

If you do a lutz-loop-loop, you have used up your "repeated" loop. If you do another loop, it won't count in your score but it WILL count in your jump-elements tally, and you will have wasted a jumping pass.

Regarding Mao or any other Senior-level skater, the WBP requirement at the level is that a skater can only repeat two TRIPLE or QUAD jumps. For our adult-skating purposes, though, it's ANY jump.

For gold, though, I could do a loop-double loop and a flip-loop, right? Since a double loop isn't the same jump as a single loop.

(Personally, I'd be happy if they limited Golds to two spins...;) :P :lol: )

[daisies]

For gold, though, I could do a loop-double loop and a flip-loop, right? Since a double loop isn't the same jump as a single loop.


Yes, that is fine. You have to be careful there, though. If for some reason your double loop comes in more than a quarter-turn underrotated, it will be downgraded to a single.

[doubletoe]

So when will we know if these proposed changes will be going into effect for the 2007 season?

After just spending countless hours on and off the ice building my new program around a spiral sequence, I will now have to trash the whole thing and start over if it is decided that Adult Gold skaters no longer have the option to do a spiral sequence instead of footwork. Aaarrrghhh.....!

[daisies]

So when will we know if these proposed changes will be going into effect for the 2007 season?

After just spending countless hours on and off the ice building my new program around a spiral sequence, I will now have to trash the whole thing and start over if it is decided that Adult Gold skaters no longer have the option to do a spiral sequence instead of footwork. Aaarrrghhh.....!

We'll know at the end of Governing Council, so basically on May 7.

I just reread the proposal. You can do a spiral sequence! It says, "A maximum of one step sequence (i.e. circular, straight line, serpentine, SPIRAL) ...."

So there ya go!

[doubletoe]

We'll know at the end of Governing Council, so basically on May 7.

I just reread the proposal. You can do a spiral sequence! It says, "A maximum of one step sequence (i.e. circular, straight line, serpentine, SPIRAL) ...."

So there ya go!

So did I! I just re-read that and barely caught it! It's a little confusing that it's mixed in there as though it's a step sequence shape/pattern rather than TYPE of step sequence. I hope that gets re-worded so that it's clearer to judges, TS's and referees. Current wording is nice and clear, saying it can be "either a step sequence or spiral sequence".

[daisies]

It will be important for people to note, too, that if they do a step sequence and a spiral sequence, only the one done first in the program will get point credit. The other will simply be part of transitions.

[sk8er1964]

Yes, that is fine. You have to be careful there, though. If for some reason your double loop comes in more than a quarter-turn underrotated, it will be downgraded to a single.

Hee, hee. I'd better trash the flip-loop idea ;)

[coskater64]

Well, I've got the new rules and maybe I have a different approach, I recently changed my program and have an opening spiral sequence which leads directly into my first difficult jump, I am going to keep the sequence and not list it on the ppc page because these spirals lift up my second marks (component scores) I will also keep my diagonal foot work as the item I want counted it is level 2 and is something I rountinely do well.

I think the idea is to promote quality skating you will be rewarded via the component marks for good quality edge work and showing solid skills, it doesn't seem there is anything to lose, just to gain.

IMHO

[doubletoe]

Well, I've got the new rules and maybe I have a different approach, I recently changed my program and have an opening spiral sequence which leads directly into my first difficult jump, I am going to keep the sequence and not list it on the ppc page because these spirals lift up my second marks (component scores) I will also keep my diagonal foot work as the item I want counted it is level 2 and is something I rountinely do well.

I think the idea is to promote quality skating you will be rewarded via the component marks for good quality edge work and showing solid skills, it doesn't seem there is anything to lose, just to gain.
IMHO

How do you manage to fit a full-ice spiral sequence and a full-ice footwork sequence into your program and have any time left for jumps and spins? How long is your program?

[NoVa Sk8r]

Well, I've got the new rules and maybe I have a different approach, I recently changed my program and have an opening spiral sequence which leads directly into my first difficult jump, I am going to keep the sequence and not list it on the ppc page because these spirals lift up my second marks (component scores) I will also keep my diagonal foot work as the item I want counted it is level 2 and is something I rountinely do well.Am I mistaken: Just because you don't list an element on the PPC does not mean the technician will not call it as such. If you *do* a spiral sequence, then it will be called as such. :?:

[Hannahclear]

But can you do a step sequence AND a spiral. Not a spiral sequence, just a spiral.

[daisies]

Am I mistaken: Just because you don't list an element on the PPC does not mean the technician will not call it as such. If you *do* a spiral sequence, then it will be called as such. :?:
You are not mistaken, that is exactly right.

coskater64, it won't matter if you don't list the spiral sequence. If you perform one, it will be called. People change their programs around all the time, so they don't go specifically by your sheet. They only use that as a guide to get a headstart on inputting your elements. It would take a lot longer if they didn't.

But can you do a step sequence AND a spiral. Not a spiral sequence, just a spiral.
Yes.

[Hannahclear]

Huzzah! :o

[sk8pics]

I am excited about competing in O'dorf--but I had to ramp up my program to make it CoP-friendly. I had to 'uglify' my spins in order to get higher level. Instead of doing a nice camel/back sit, I'm now doing back camel/donut (catch foot)/back spin (either sit or scratch) w/change of edge. It ain't pretty, but it's level 3. :P

Hey NoVa, Be very careful that each of your position changes are clear and held the right number of revolutions. And be careful about how you count your revolutions. On the elite track, there are a lot of examples of elements such as steps or spins being downgraded at times to lower levels, because either the caller makes a mistake or the skater doesn't do exactly what he/she is supposed to do to achieve the level. One coach/tech specialist told me they replay and just look to see how the blade turns on the ice and whether the heel crosses the starting point to decide if all the required revolutions were held. Not that you're necessarily going to have instant replay in your competitions, but just to say they are pretty strict in calling these things, and you may not end up with the level you think you will.

[NoVa Sk8r]

Hey NoVa, Be very careful that each of your position changes are clear and held the right number of revolutions. And be careful about how you count your revolutions. On the elite track, there are a lot of examples of elements such as steps or spins being downgraded at times to lower levels, because either the caller makes a mistake or the skater doesn't do exactly what he/she is supposed to do to achieve the level. One coach/tech specialist told me they replay and just look to see how the blade turns on the ice and whether the heel crosses the starting point to decide if all the required revolutions were held. Not that you're necessarily going to have instant replay in your competitions, but just to say they are pretty strict in calling these things, and you may not end up with the level you think you will.The application spells out how many positions, revs are needed. I can only do my best and leave it up to the experts to decipher my somewhat inchoate skating! (But I'm hoping for at least two level-2 spins.) Interestingly, I am allowed to do a step AND a spiral sequence.

[coskater64]

If I shorten the spiral sequence so it is not a full circle though it should not be called, it is 3 spirals well actually 2, w/ a leg catch into a jump. That shouldn't be a spiral sequence... once again I'm gonna go for quality, or at least try, I mean it's better than crossovers...:roll:

[doubletoe]

If I shorten the spiral sequence so it is not a full circle though it should not be called, it is 3 spirals well actually 2, w/ a leg catch into a jump. That shouldn't be a spiral sequence... once again I'm gonna go for quality, or at least try, I mean it's better than crossovers...:roll:

That sounds like a good plan. :)

[PattyP]

You are not mistaken, that is exactly right.

coskater64, it won't matter if you don't list the spiral sequence. If you perform one, it will be called. People change their programs around all the time, so they don't go specifically by your sheet. They only use that as a guide to get a headstart on inputting your elements. It would take a lot longer if they didn't.


Yes.

What if you do just a spiral, not a sequence, first in the program and the step sequence later. Will they count the spiral with a low level and GOE due to the fact it wasn't a full sequence and not count the step sequence later in the program? Or just count the spiral as a transition?

I would much rather the step sequence count than a spiral sequence, but I always choreograph my step sequence at the end of a program.

[daisies]

What if you do just a spiral, not a sequence, first in the program and the step sequence later. Will they count the spiral with a low level and GOE due to the fact it wasn't a full sequence and not count the step sequence later in the program? Or just count the spiral as a transition?It would just be a transition. One spiral does not a sequence make!

[NoVa Sk8r]

Here's what ISU says (I assume USFS has the same language), from Communication 1319:

Spiral Sequence
-Consists primarily of spirals, either commencing at the end of the ice surface, progressing in bold curves and ending at the opposite end of the ice surface(serpentine) or skated in a complete circle or oval utilizing the full width of the ice surface (circular) or a combination of the two. There must be at least two (2) spiral positions.
Pushes in order to gain speed are permitted. Connecting steps (including spread eagles and two footed movements with one leg extended and the other bent, or "Ina Bauer"), turns, small jumps are permitted at any point in the sequence. Except during such pushes, steps, turns and small jumps, the competitor must be primarily in a spiral position, that is with the free leg higher than the hip level and each position must be maintained for at least 3 seconds hold. Any variations of the position are permitted, including holding the knee or skate blade and the position of the free leg is otherwise free.
A spiral sequence in which all executed spiral positions are held with less than 3 seconds receives no Level and therefore no value. A Spiral Sequence in which less than two positions (with at least 3 seconds hold) are executed will receive Level 1.

Some people have told me that 3 positions are needed; that is not correct (well, 3 are mandatory in a SP). It' s just that the highest level you would ever garner would be level 1.

[doubletoe]

It would just be a transition. One spiral does not a sequence make!

Amen! Patty, don't be afraid that you'll find yourself compromised by having unprotected spiral encounters; now that I'm actively trying to conceive a legitimate spiral sequence, I'm finding it's actually quite difficult to do, LOL!

[skaternum]

It' s just that the highest level you would ever garner would be level 1.A nice universal quote that I can see applied to my skating for years to come! :P

[NoVa Sk8r]

A nice universal quote that I can see applied to my skating for years to come! :PBut your postions, grace, and beauty (and calendar projects :lol: ) are LEVEL 5!!! 8-)

[jazzpants]

But your postions, grace, and beauty (and calendar projects :lol: ) are LEVEL 5!!! 8-)Here here! Well, okay, at least the the calendar projects, since I haven't seen you skate yet...

(Which reminds me... are you doing another one? :twisted: )

ETA: To stay on topic... ummm... the question I had regarding the spin requirements for the "well balanced program" requirement... are there plans in the future to adjust the test requirements to match it? I was just thinking about the test requirements of 3 spins in a test program vs. 2 in a competition. Was wondering how much trouble is it to choreography for both???

[doubletoe]

The application spells out how many positions, revs are needed. I can only do my best and leave it up to the experts to decipher my somewhat inchoate skating! (But I'm hoping for at least two level-2 spins.) Interestingly, I am allowed to do a step AND a spiral sequence.

My guess is that there are very few adult skaters who would get more points for doing a level 2 spin than for doing a good level 1 spin. If you look at the difference between a level 1 base value with a positive GOE and a level 2 base value with a negative GOE, you'll see why. (The way I see it, the GOE is the judges' opportunity to punish you for making them watch something difficult but ugly, LOL!)

[daisies]

(The way I see it, the GOE is the judges' opportunity to punish you for making them watch something difficult but ugly, LOL!)
You LOL, but my philosophy as a judge has always been that I would rather see a nicely done single or double than a poorly done double or triple! :)

[Csk8er]

You LOL, but my philosophy as a judge has always been that I would rather see a nicely done single or double than a poorly done double or triple! :)

I wholeheartedly agree! When I judge competitions, I would rather see and therefore reward a clean program skated with good carriage than a program skated with many errors on elements that are too difficult for the skater.

[skaternum]

But your postions, grace, and beauty (and calendar projects :lol: ) are LEVEL 5!!! 8-)<blush> You're too kind.

I don't know when I'll get another calendar done, since I'm not attending any comps this year. It's a long way to go to Peach just to watch. I may have to think up a different arts and crafts project for this year. :twisted:

[sk8er1964]

You LOL, but my philosophy as a judge has always been that I would rather see a nicely done single or double than a poorly done double or triple! :)

Can you judge my events please? It seems that I do better with a 2-footed or cheated double than a big, clean single. Do you think that will change?

[sk8pics]

The application spells out how many positions, revs are needed. I can only do my best and leave it up to the experts to decipher my somewhat inchoate skating! (But I'm hoping for at least two level-2 spins.) Interestingly, I am allowed to do a step AND a spiral sequence.

Yes, of course it does, and everybody can read. My point is to make every position and edge change clear and make sure you are holding each position or edge the required number of times. There are so many cases of spins being downgraded, and it's because they were just short of revolutions or weren't in the position long enough, things like that.

[NoVa Sk8r]

Yes, of course it does, and everybody can read. My point is to make every position and edge change clear and make sure you are holding each position or edge the required number of times. There are so many cases of spins being downgraded, and it's because they were just short of revolutions or weren't in the position long enough, things like that.I'm not too worried. In fact, several of the people who went to O'dorf last year told me that they were given the benefit of the doubt with certain features and such. We'll see this year if that continues. But really, if I am required to do 2 revs (for change of edge) or however many, I always plan on doing more so that I at least do the minimum. Which reminds me of when I saw someone taking the silver FS test. Puzzled why she had to retest the sit spin, I told her that she didn't do the required 4 revs (I thin kshe did at most 2). "Oh, really? I thought I did like 6 or 7 revs!" :o

[jenlyon60]

Counting revs can be tricky.

Especially since some tests the requirements read "per foot" (regardless of change of position) but on other tests it's "min revolutions in position" which then the judge has to decide at what point "in position" has been achieved.

This is not always clearly obvious, since if the skater's attempt at "in position" is marginal, a judge may consider that the requirement for an XYZ spin (regardless of number of revolutions required and met) has not been achieved.

[Hannahclear]

Counting revs is hard. I did a back camel for the first time at my most recent competition. It went really well. I exited the spin thinking I had done about 5 revs. Turned out, when I watched the tape, only to be 3. I mean 3 is fine and all, but your perception can really be off. I think my mind counts getting into the spin as one, even though I haven't acheived position yet.

[daisies]

Can you judge my events please? It seems that I do better with a 2-footed or cheated double than a big, clean single. Do you think that will change?
It will definitely change with IJS. Cheated jumps will be downgraded, and two-footed jumps will probably get a GOE of -2 or -3, depending on what else is going on with the jump.

Under 6.0, judging varies. Some judges reward difficulty, even if executed poorly, and some, like myself and Csk8er, don't.

Counting revs is hard. I did a back camel for the first time at my most recent competition. It went really well. I exited the spin thinking I had done about 5 revs. Turned out, when I watched the tape, only to be 3. I mean 3 is fine and all, but your perception can really be off. I think my mind counts getting into the spin as one, even though I haven't acheived position yet.

Not only that, but I have found judges tend to start counting at different times!

[coskater64]

My coach starts counting at 0 (zero) and then expects me to do 4 revs, that way I practice more and am more comfortable with holding the spin the expected # of revs.

[SkateGuard]

The new Adult WBP requirements are to be implemented only if the ISU judging systems is voted to be phased in 2007. We arehoping for the Champ. events and Gold & Higher. But we will see. This new system is very complicated in terms of an additional technical panel and the accounting processes behind the scenes. Skaters will have to send in their program content in adance so it can be entered into the computer.

Excuse me for shouting but, COMPUTER!!! It's going to cost $3600 in ice time and officials to implement IJS just for the 24 events this impacts. Remember that when Chicago bid, there was no mention of IJS--it's a lot like "scope creep" when you're a consultant. Very expensive, and very annoying.:frus:

As for the WBP requirements, it seems very cart-before-the-horse because these reqirements do not match the tests as they stand. I won't be able to compete my Silver test program because it has an extra spin. Huh?

Anyway, when are the Nov/Jr/Sr tests going to be modified to be IJS?

[techskater]

IJS can be done with pencil and paper. It has been done as such at test comps and last year in O'dorf. Yes, it takes longer and can be a real pain in the @ss and the accountants get a real headache entering everything with it. The cost can be kept down by scheduling the events altogether on two days (Friday and Saturday, say) and the officials only brought in on Thursday night. It's possible to do with out much cost increase, but those cost increases may need to be passed on to competitors. People signing up will have to understand that and you can bet it will be discussed loudly by some delegates at ANs. IJS is coming, whether it's 07 or later and whether it's bid that way or not, so if it comes to pass, the Chicago LOC will find a way to cope.

[coskater64]

I saw the NJS being done at O'dorf and it worked very well there, no computers just a pencil and paper w/ the accountant seated behind the judges. The chits were taken after each skater and entered by the accountant a caller told the judges what elements were being executed. The caller did come and watch our 20 minute practice and get an idea of who was who by watching us do our 2.00 minutes of our program. We had about a 2 minute wait between skaters, usually less and then about 5 minutes for results. We all watched the skaters after us and all sat together and then the results were called out with all of us seated and present from 1st to final placement. Everyone was cheered, it was a very nice experience.

While I understand it is costly it seems like a better system to me. I don't think there is anyway to stop it from passing. Maybe those of us gold and higher will have to pay a higher entry fee for AN's this year, and also for sectionals next year as well. I watched sectionals (standard track) this year and I understand the accounting component is amazing and it's difficult to get the PPC sheet done, exactly when in your program are you doing X or Y, it's just a guide line, things often change mid program.

Only so many things can be done at the GC each year, if you have a problem find the rep for your club and submit a proposal, they are due soon like the end of April or beginning of May, don't just tell someone to stand up and suggest something willy-nilly. The GC follows a specific set of rules (like congress or the senate) things must be done in a certain way. They have to go to committees first and then down the pipe from there, it's really very interesting, I went last year and will also attend this year.

[doubletoe]

It will be important for people to note, too, that if they do a step sequence and a spiral sequence, only the one done first in the program will get point credit. The other will simply be part of transitions.

You know, I'm looking at this again and I'm beginning to wonder if that's the case. . . The wording says:

"Additional moves-in-the field and spiral step sequences will not be counted as a step sequence but will be counted in the free program as transitions and marked as such."

Notice it specifies "moves-in-the-field and spiral step sequences" not being counted but says nothing about the regular footwork step sequence not being counted.

[NoVa Sk8r]

Not that O'dorf is or will be the same as what USFS uses, but I had thought that only one sequence was allowed for men. But at last year's ISU event, one skater received credit for both a step AND a spiral sequence.

The silver medalist in silver I (Felix) did a circular step (CiSt1) and a spiral step sequence (SpSt1):
http://www.isufs.org/results/adult05/ac05_m_sfsi_scores.pdf

[coskater64]

The 2nd place lady (Karla) did both and recieved credit for both in Gold Ladies 1 and the first place lady in Silver ladies 1 did as well. So the question is will they allow that again this year?

[daisies]

You know, I'm looking at this again and I'm beginning to wonder if that's the case. . . The wording says:

"Additional moves-in-the field and spiral step sequences will not be counted as a step sequence but will be counted in the free program as transitions and marked as such."

Notice it specifies "moves-in-the-field and spiral step sequences" not being counted but says nothing about the regular footwork step sequence not being counted.
I think the key word here is additional. Only one step sequence is supposed to be counted. So, if you have, for example, both a straight-line step sequence and a spiral sequence, whichever one comes first is the one that's counted. The additional thing will only count for transitions, steps being "MIF" and spirals being, well, spirals.

I hope that makes sense!

Regarding O'Dorf, if the rules said only one step sequence, and those people got credit for both, someone shoulda said somethin'!

[coskater64]

I think it was the wording which said one spiral sequence or footwork sequence. If you look at the results you will notice we all should have had the same # of items but some had more and some had less. There was also an issue with attempting a jump multiple times and then after the 3rd attempt landing the jump but still doing the rest of the jump elements and having them count as well. It will be interesting to see if they are stricter this year.

[doubletoe]

I think the key word here is additional. Only one step sequence is supposed to be counted. So, if you have, for example, both a straight-line step sequence and a spiral sequence, whichever one comes first is the one that's counted. The additional thing will only count for transitions, steps being "MIF" and spirals being, well, spirals.

I hope that makes sense!

Regarding O'Dorf, if the rules said only one step sequence, and those people got credit for both, someone shoulda said somethin'!

Yep, I just got clarification from Tony Conte that it IS whichever step sequence is done first (spiral or footwork) that will be counted. Good call. ;)

[doubletoe]

I think it was the wording which said one spiral sequence or footwork sequence. If you look at the results you will notice we all should have had the same # of items but some had more and some had less. There was also an issue with attempting a jump multiple times and then after the 3rd attempt landing the jump but still doing the rest of the jump elements and having them count as well. It will be interesting to see if they are stricter this year.

So you mean some people did more than the permitted number of jump passes and they still counted the jumps landed after that number had already been reached (even if those jumps weren't all landed)?

[sk8pics]

doubletoe,
I remember some people did both a step sequence and a spiral sequence and got credit for both, even though the requirements clearly specified or, not "and." I would not be surprised if there were other examples of mistakes made in the calling of the elements. I did see some when I looked at the DVD's along with the written protocols, although I can't remember the details right at this minute. I just chalked it up to mistakes by the callers and the paper and pencil system being used, since it could also have been entered incorrectly.

[SK8RX]

With reference to Oberstdorf - I believe the announcement last year stated, "there must be at least one step or spiral sequence" (emphasis added). Accordingly, some chose to include more than one such element, and were given credit for completing same. I would interpret the announcement to read that there was a minimum requirement, not a maximum limitation, with reference to step/spiral sequences. By the way, the same verbage is included in the 2006 Oberstdorf annoucement as well. Good luck to everyone competing!

[sk8pics]

No, the bronze level programs did not say "at least one". It said "there must be one step or spiral sequence utilizing half the ice surface." It says that for this year's competition as well.

[icecatepairs]

My head is spinning from all this technical information! and in my head i keep rechoreographing my program and wondering how i will change the music around , then i read the next post and scrap the imaginary changes in my head as someone else sheds a different light on the subject.

RULE CHANGES: It looks like I am not in the majority disagreeing with the jump limitaions in Gold. I look at it from the point of view of Gold being the highest level of adult (started as adult) skating and what it is saying in my mind is that someone has decided that these jumps are what we expect adults to achieve. And in the order we specify. I think we worked so hard as an adult community to prove that we can do more with our bodies than anyone would have imagined when this whole thing startes 10 plus years ago. By putting a cap on what we are allowed to do, it kills for me one of the things i like so much about adult skating..seeing how far i can push my self to reach new goals. I now ask myself why work on or ever do a double flip or lutz again, as I will never be allowed to compete it. I know the rebuttle will be to move to masters. I feel that Masters is a seperate animal, created for former competitive skaters. It was never meant to be a gold plus or platinum level for adult track skaters. perhaps we have outgrown the structure system by achieving more than people thought we could. maybe we need a platinum level for adult skaters (not having skated as kids by definition so to speak. ) In any case Just for the record I don't consider myself above anyone in this satement about the jumps. Adults learn differently and we run with what we can. I personally have a better grip on a double flip than a single toe! ( lol...toe axel..) It has nothing to do with the value assigned in a book. i am better at linear jumps than edge jumps or toe loops. my body finds the flip easier and the toe loop hell in an handbasket. but this is all one persons opinion. everyones is valuable.

LOOPS: you are so right...I have presented my arguments in writing to Tony Conti and recieved timely replies...i encourage all of us to log off forums for a few minutes and share all this great stuff we are throwing around to the people who have the power, no matter what side of the debate you are on.

DOUBLE TOE: I thnk you were the one asking what fits in 2:40. i have 6 jumping passes, 3 spins, a full line of straight ine foot work and a 4 position spiral sequence. how? i feel rushed all the time. there is not a second to spare on the connections. in fact we are having trouble adding a position to one of the spins. but...see below

TIMDAVID: I heard it from a pretty good source that they are fairly sure the motion to increase tehe time in gold slightly will pass. I am not sure if silver and bronze will also be included. but wait ..isn't silver aready 2:15?

OK ONE LAST TIME: in may program as of now my straight line footwork occurs before my spirals sequence. the spirals are of higher point value...does that mean i have to re cut my music and put them in first? i read that to mean any additional spirals to the one you already did, or the same with footwork. not that if you did both the second would be additional . This seems odd to me. help ....please!

A NEW QUESTION: what happens if you deviate from the original plan you submit? example ..i have a change of edge back sit position in an already complicated combo...say i get in the sit and go.."uht oh...i am not on the the right spot on my blade ...if i change edge now i will not be able to pull my leg up over my head. abort mission and move to tnhe next position. ok so i skip it...then maybe later on in the next spin i hit a back sit ..feels good, so i stick in the change of edge there. is there a penalty for that? We do have that deduction in high level gymanstics meets..regionals or higher...calling the wrong vault is a deduction . the coach must inform the judges befoe the gymnast runs. If she does a different vault there will be a .2 deduction from her score.

ok now i've added more muck to the pile...Please peole...make your voice heard to your reps before may 7th. this is a huge change in Adult skating that really effects us all.

[lovepairs]

I feel that Masters is a seperate animal, created for former competitive skaters. It was never meant to be a gold plus or platinum level for adult track skaters. perhaps we have outgrown the structure system by achieving more than people thought we could. maybe we need a platinum level for adult skaters (not having skated as kids by definition so to speak. ) In any case Just for the record I don't consider myself above anyone in this satement about the jumps. Adults learn differently and we run with what we can. I personally have a better grip on a double flip than a single toe! ( lol...toe axel..) It has nothing to do with the value assigned in a book. i am better at linear jumps than edge jumps or toe loops. my body finds the flip easier and the toe loop hell in an handbasket. but this is all one persons opinion. everyones is valuable.

Hey, I figured out how to do the "Quote" thing! :P

About the above: Within the Adult Bronze, Silver, and Gold structure, there is already a heated debat, and what many feel to be an injustice, about having people who learned to skate as a kid and those who began as adults competing against one another. By, essentially, forcing people who learned how to skate as adults up to Masters (and, especially, in Ladies singles where there is a large competitive field) by limiting which (not the number), but which jumps they can do, really exasperates this issue about people who learned as a kid and people who learned as adults. I, also, thought the "Master" catagory was origionally created for skating adults who learned as kids, tested as kids, competed at the "real" regionals, sectionals, and nationals, but now grown up want back in the game, again. These folks would leap frog over the Adult Structure into the Master catagory. At least, that is how I understood it. I also understand that anyone who "wishes" to challenge themeselves can opt to slide over to the standard track and test their way from the Adult Structure into Masters. I stronly feel that Adult Skaters shouldn't be foreced into Masters by which doubles they can, or cannot perform, and I'll tell you why:

The adult body doesn't learn like the kid body. In other words, the kids progression of jumps as they learn from easy to difficult is: toe, sal, loop, flip, lutz, axel. Now even with the kids some find it easier to do one jump over the other. But most kids have pretty decent sals and toe jumps as they progress to the more difficult jump. Adults on the other hand, have tendency to jump all around the board when learning jumps. For instance, I don't have a single toe (just can't get it from a waltz toe to the real thing) nor do I have a Salcow (I don't even know what this thing is suppossed to be, or if it is a jump at all???) Anyway, yes, yes, yes, I have wonderful coaches, but my body refuses. On the other hand, I have really nice loop and flip and the lutz is now becoming easier--Go figure! My point is that because ICESKATE has the more advanced double jumps in her repetoire, she shouldn't be forced up to Masters to include these in her program, nor should she have to eliminate what she can do best in the Adult Gold catagory.

Here is a simple solution: since there is no ceiling cap on the COP system (as there was with 6.0) how about limiting the number of double jumps that one can do in Adult Gold, but allowing the skater to choose the jumps they would like to do and know how to do.

[coskater64]

Well, I like the jumping limit and I think it is correct. A skater who has passed their gold fs should have mastery of an axel. Yes? Let's say that...the axel is the key transfer of weight jump it moves the same as the 2sow and 2toe which are also transfer of weight jumps. The 2loop is the first pivot jump and the 2flip and 2lutz follow.

Generally, this is how jumps are taught in the US. Transfer of weight first then pivot (same for the singles) I am told--and someone can answer this for me or correct me if I am wrong. In Canada they teach axel and double loop at the same time, so you learn both types of jump at the same time.

Given this rationale, you are a gold FS'er you have an axel, the most common jumps you would do would be 2sow and 2toe, usually if a skater has mastered these two they can pass the intermediate FS and skate up to Masters. I think there is a statement here, these are the jumps they expect to see, solid singles with nice doubles, the sow and toe. And for those skater's who find pivot jumps easier they have included the 2 loop. Skater's who can do a 2loop and a double-double can pass the Novice FS and are certainly master level skaters but, you are allowed to do all of that at the gold level, isn't that challenge enough? What about axel 2loop the primer for the double axel, you can still do that in gold.

The skating at this years gold ladies FS was much better than the last two years the top 2 ladies and clean easy doubles, good flow, lovely spins, crisp footwork and skated well, most of the group overall skated better. The well balanced rules and field moves have made the skating better. This rule change will continue to make the skating better, it wil allow stronger skaters to move up if they choose and it makes the definition clear. A double flip and lutz are Jr and Sr level jumps they should be performed by skaters who have mastered the other jumps, there is no reason to do them at gold, like there isn't enough to do already at gold.

For those who say they can't..then don't go ahead do the jumps you want because you don't want to do the others. But, while it may take years to learn how to do the other jumps at least you'll try...I often say I can't but I always qualify it..I can't (right now, I'll keep working on it), never do I say I won't do it..the only thing I won't do is...give up.

As someone who did move up I have virtually no double jumps, they come and go, when they go, I work on spins, power, edge quality and speed. I do singles, hundreds of them until they are perfect then I start over and work on the double again, just like everyone else.

I wil skate gold in o'dorf this year because the gold group is where I belong, I can not do a 2 flip or lutz, If I could I would skate master's. But remember, for o'dorf you can skate any level you want so long as you follow the rules for the program.

Just my 2 cents.

[saras]

Well, I like the jumping limit and I think it is correct. A skater who has passed their gold fs should have mastery of an axel. Yes? Let's say that...the axel is the key transfer of weight jump it moves the same as the 2sow and 2toe which are also transfer of weight jumps. The 2loop is the first pivot jump and the 2flip and 2lutz follow.

<snip>

The skating at this years gold ladies FS was much better than the last two years the top 2 ladies and clean easy doubles, good flow, lovely spins, crisp footwork and skated well, most of the group overall skated better. The well balanced rules and field moves have made the skating better. This rule change will continue to make the skating better, it wil allow stronger skaters to move up if they choose and it makes the definition clear. A double flip and lutz are Jr and Sr level jumps they should be performed by skaters who have mastered the other jumps, there is no reason to do them at gold, like there isn't enough to do already at gold.


I agree with the jump limit at Gold.

Personally, I think saying that the adult track is meant for skaters who started as adults, and the masters track for former kid skaters is way too simplistic. I haven't done a poll, but I bet if the Open Gold and Champ Gold skaters were polled - a fair number of them fall into both categories. There simply aren't enough adult skaters to go around to split them on that basis. There are plenty of skaters who skated some as a kid, but not enough to ever get to regionals or test up to Int or higher. Currently - those folks look in part like former-kid skaters, and in part like adult-onset skaters.

I like the Gold jump limit b/c it'd probably help focus on folks doing quality jumps, rather than what I call "hail mary" jumps ROFL (and I'm not even religious ha). There's a LOT of overlap in what you see at Champ Masters Novice and Adult Gold performances these days. There's much more of a split between Bronze and Silver and Gold than here is between Gold and Masters Novice. Why not have a natural dividing point? Folks who want to do 2lutz and 2flips should be able to move up to Novice; folks who don't can stay at Gold. But then, as I opened with, I don't buy the Masters Novice is-for-former-kid-skaters and Adult Gold-is-not argument to begin with - so I don't really see the problem with having such a dividing point. There are jump limits at all other Adult levels - with the limits being only slightly over what the tests for those levels require. To have a level where the test requires an axel, but competition allows all doubles is a way different animal.

Also just my opinion, Sara

[coskater64]

As a "kid" skater, or kinda kid skater, started at 14 quit at 18, I can say in all honesty my skating as a kid was AWFUL. I did good figures but the only jump I had was an axel and a 2 footed double toe, no foot cross. My spins travelled for miles I couldn't do a good camel and I had no footwork, 3 turns and mohawks, that was it. Everything good about my skating has come about between the ages of 36 and now. When I skated silver, you could hear me miles away, so scratchy and icky....bad.

While everyone harps on that axel, ya gotta understand, I got some serious concussions learning that jump, one put me in the hospital. What I learned as a kid and what transferred over as an adult was the lack of fear I have, because I have done the jump before, that is an advantage. Yet, I never landed a double sow and I almost broke my hip trying to do it as a kid, currently they are my most comfortable double to attempt, at least this week.

Any adult can learn to jump, it just takes longer and there is more of a price to pay with regards to the risk, we all have different circumstances with which we deal with. I am very lucky, no children, no spouse and a job with my family so I can go out and kill myself every day because I have no one to take care of...this might be why I will have surgery this summer. But as a very tall, very un-coordinated person I have learned how to jump I have also learned that it is what it is-- come competition time...I always try and that gives me a greater sense of accomplishment than anything.

[lovepairs]

Jazzpants posted two interesting polls, which seems to be already proving the point that the adult track is compised of some kid skaters, skaters who started as adults, and some like me who skated on an off as a kid, but really committed as an adult. The Master Pairs Poll is amost completely comprised of "kid" skaters. The Master catagory, especially in ladies singles, is an entirely different animal then the Gold Ladies.

As adults, I really think we should be able to choose our jumps with a limit on the number of them. I mean, it's not like we are going to the Olympics. We just want to compete on a fairly even playing field (it doesn't have to be punishingly tight with endless minutia) but, don't you think we ought to be able to show off what we've been working on all year long whether it be a double toe, or a double lutz? Some are able to do one, some are able to do the other. If you only started skating as an adult and have a double lutz, but not a double toe, why should you feel forced up to Masters to compete out of your league with the "kid" skaters, or have to be forced to leave out your double lutz, or put it in and receive no points for it??? :giveup:

[manleywoman]

I agree lovepairs.

Also, I plan on not touching or switching around my program at all until all rules and revisions for adults are figured out. And then when they are, I'm hoping some nice judge here will spell out all the rules for the different levels in plain english so we all get it!

[cecealias]

The adult body doesn't learn like the kid body. In other words, the kids progression of jumps as they learn from easy to difficult is: toe, sal, loop, flip, lutz, axel. Now even with the kids some find it easier to do one jump over the other. But most kids have pretty decent sals and toe jumps as they progress to the more difficult jump. Adults on the other hand, have tendency to jump all around the board when learning jumps. For instance, I don't have a single toe (just can't get it from a waltz toe to the real thing) nor do I have a Salcow (I don't even know what this thing is suppossed to be, or if it is a jump at all???) Anyway, yes, yes, yes, I have wonderful coaches, but my body refuses. On the other hand, I have really nice loop and flip and the lutz is now becoming easier--Go figure! My point is that because ICESKATE has the more advanced double jumps in her repetoire, she shouldn't be forced up to Masters to include these in her program, nor should she have to eliminate what she can do best in the Adult Gold catagory.


Lovepairs and other people bring up a good point, but:

Just thinking about the bronze and silver adult competitive skaters that i've seen, I can't think of a single one right now that has a good quality single salchow or toe loop with a lot of height. However, I see a lot of lutz loop loops that are of good quality. For the bronze and silvers that don't have an axel, the pivot jumps are competitive jumps and skaters spend an inordinate time working on them.

When the quality level of the weight transfer jumps i.e. salchow and toe loop isn't there the jumps are typically small and swingy with little control. And then the skaters expect to squeeze a double out of that. No wonder they get frustrated and say they can't do it.

It takes more height and rotation to get a double loop/flip/lutz. So, if a skater can do any of these double pivot jumps, they can do a double toe/sal. However, if the technique for the single jump take-off is crummy, the skater is going to struggle.

Just my 0.02:giveup:

[jazzpants]

I'm hoping some nice judge here will spell out all the rules for the different levels in plain english so we all get it!Ummm... there is no such thing as plain English, manleywoman!!! :lol: :twisted:

Sorry! I couldn't resist poking fun at English once in a blue moon b/c it was quite a confusing language to learn for me as a kid! I'm relieved now that I'm much better at it, but I certainly am nowhere near the level of NoVa Sk8r in vocabulary!!! :lol: :P

But I digress... I don't know what to think of this jump limit thing at Champ. Adult Gold. I hear both arguments and both are good arguments so far!

[Terri C]

Well folks, GC is this week and has anyone heard yea or nay if the proposals passed??

[lovepairs]

Let's start a new thread when motions have been radified, or if anyone hears any leaks out of the GC. It was a little confusing, because I saw this up front today, started reading it thinking it was new "News," and realized (halfway down) that it was Nova's original thread.

Nova,

Can we start a new thread about what's coming out of the GC? Or, Terri? Or, shall I start a new thread?

Lovepairs