And the answer is.....

[SDFanatic]

Neither.

The Question?

What is more important to me, getting lessons, or skating in non-traditional attire?

To avoid being long, I would much rather be treated equaly then being discriminatead against just because I'm a male.

Steven

[Skittl1321]

A lot of coaches require traditional attire. The lessons I am hoping to be able to join require that women wear skating skirts or dresses and tights. I much prefer to skate in pants, but I accept to join these lessons I have to do what the guidelines say. If I am really that adverse to wearing a skirt, I'll go elsewhere.

If I cause such a fuss about wearing the appropriate attire that I've burned the bridges to any coach in the area, then I'd have to seek out a different rink.

I understand your frustration because there are many places that allow women to wear pants instead of skirts/dresses, and the same freedom to wear skirts/dresses instead of pants is not open to men, but this doesn't exist everywhere. There are still places that require women to skate in skirts to be allowed on the ice.

[Isk8NYC]

Steven, I guess you want to stay near your Mom, so your choices are limited. But, are there any areas that would allow you to practice wearing skirts? You'd still have the USFSA rules to contend with for tests/competitions, but at least you'd be skating.

Frankly, I don't care what I wear - skating's more important to me, but I'm not fashion-conscious in the least. My home rink has a dress code for instructors, but I'm one of the few who comply. As the Chaos Theorist in Jurassic Park remarked: I always wear black because I don't want to clutter my mind with the unessentials.

Since I started teaching over ten years ago, my opp's for skating myself are limited because of time constraints and family obligations. Fortunately, I have a few freestyle skaters and higher-level group classes, so I get in some half-hearted jumps and spins that way. I have big plans for this summer, though!

[SDFanatic]

A quick reply as I head out the door,

A lady I skate with was told she had to wear a skirt or else when she tested, she did not argue with them and now skates just to skate even though she would like to compete.

I thought this was wrong and through my involvment and actions, females can now wear trousers.

Males and females in figure skating are restricted in what they can and cannot do, I do not think this is fair and both "S" should have the same freedoms.

Steven

[Mel On Ice]

Steven, I understand where you are coming from, but I guess I care more about the sport than what I have to wear.

For your sake, I hope you can find a compromise that will make you happy, and, more importantly, get you on the ice where you belong.

[dooobedooo]

Steven doesn't seem to care much about skating at all.

He only seems to be interested in skating because of the pretty frocks, chance to show off his legs, and a few glitzy rhinestones.

He won't be the first - there are plenty like him out there. But I do wonder why he needs to post on a skating discussion forum (rather than a pretty frocks forum)?
:??

[TashaKat]

I've not contributed before because it's the same old, same old. I'm fed up of hearing it to be honest. I don't give a stuff what you wear but I'm sick of thread after thread about this one issue. I can understand that you feel hard done by etc etc etc but at the end of the day you need to make a decision as to whether you want to continue with your cause or skate and be coached.

I didn't want to have to wear tan tights and a skating skirt for my tests but I did it because I wanted to skate and wanted to test. I chose the sport, I follow the rules. If I didn't accept the rules then I wouldn't have chosen the sport.

In life you have to make decisions, do you rebel and maybe be limited as to what you can do or do you choose your battles and continue to participate in your chosen hobby?

I have some principles that I will stick to but I'm willing to compromise on others that aren't that important in the grand scheme of things. The choice, as they say, is yours. We've heard your argument so please can we let it rest now?

[skaternum]

Oh, gawd, another thread about Steven's choices? :roll: Did you notice the last one got locked because it was the same old, same old, ad nauseum? So what did you do? You started another one. Why, the cynical amongst us might begin to suspect that you care more about attention than you do about skating! Please give it a rest. We've heard your arguments a 1000 times, and you've read our thoughts. Nothing to see here. Move along.

[flippet]

Neither.

The Question?

What is more important to me, getting lessons, or skating in non-traditional attire?

To avoid being long, I would much rather be treated equaly then being discriminatead against just because I'm a male.



Steven....what can we, here on this forum, do for you? I think we all would 'rather be treated equally than be discriminated against.' However, discrimination has an element of perception attached to it---it's not strictly black and white. Sometimes it's more perception than fact. And sometimes you just have to keep putting one foot (or skate) in front of the other despite any discrimination, perceived or actual. You can't change anyone but yourself. Seriously. Quietly doing your own thing will often effect more change than shouting from the rooftops...no matter what your topic.

[flo]

T-kat. Good response.
If there's a grad student out there looking for a project - I've always wanted to look at an analysis of discussion boards and threads. I'd like to look at how long or number of replies on a thread (any topic) before it goes significantly off topic, becomes circular, mean or.... It can apply to any board. Then we'll be able to predict in how many responses the thread will:

1. become a love-fest for a given skater
2. become a two way conversation
3. go horribly off topic
4. get snitty
5. be "hijacked" to a pet topic
6. become circular (too long to read from the begining, so repeat bla bla bla.
7. be locked.

Correlate this with any real information or response given and variables of question types and such.
It would be interesting to see the results by area and board type.

[doubletoe]

When you love something, you are willing to make sacrifices for it.
It would appear that you don't love skating (maybe just the idea of skating).

[dbny]

With absolutely no malice intended, I would like to offer an explanation for Steven's problems and multiple threads here regarding them, that has not yet been proposed. Steven is an exhibitionist. Figure skating in dresses gives him a great way to showcase himself, and writing about it and its concommitant problems here is another showcase for him. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with exhibitionism; we probably wouldn't have any film or TV stars without it, but it is getting a bit tiresome here.

BTW the idea first occurred to me when Steven posted his pix way back when. I'm surprised that no one else has suggested that motive.

[phoenix]

I've just assumed that since he's willing to have a lot of areas in his life made difficult by his decisions, it seems to be more of a compulsion than simply a "whim" of a decision that day.....though he denies it, it sure seems to be something he feels he must do, & therefore to him it's almost not even a choice anymore. Otherwise, why would he do it?

We all conform to wardrobe 'stipulations' as we go through life in one form or another; he doesn't seem able to do that, even at the expense of activities, friends, money, etc. That's going beyond an idle decision/preference.

And what hasn't been pointed out (here, anyway), is that while Steven may be harmless (I don't know him, so have no idea), the world of cross-dressing carries a certain stigma/reputation that puts a legitimate concern on the table for society, and therefore I can understand a rink/club requiring a certain dress code. There are little children involved and I can understand the concerns.

[VegasGirl]

And the answer is.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Neither.

The Question?

What is more important to me, getting lessons, or skating in non-traditional attire?

To avoid being long, I would much rather be treated equaly then being discriminatead against just because I'm a male.

Steven



:roll: :frus: ...nough said!

[russiet]

Another topic would be better.

[SDFanatic]

Steven, I guess you want to stay near your Mom, so your choices are limited. But, are there any areas that would allow you to practice wearing skirts? You'd still have the USFSA rules to contend with for tests/competitions, but at least you'd be skating.

Frankly, I don't care what I wear - skating's more important to me, but I'm not fashion-conscious in the least. My home rink has a dress code for instructors, but I'm one of the few who comply. As the Chaos Theorist in Jurassic Park remarked: I always wear black because I don't want to clutter my mind with the unessentials.

Since I started teaching over ten years ago, my opp's for skating myself are limited because of time constraints and family obligations. Fortunately, I have a few freestyle skaters and higher-level group classes, so I get in some half-hearted jumps and spins that way. I have big plans for this summer, though!

I practice all the time wearing skirts (and pants, and leggings, and....) practice is not an issue, finding a good coach is.

My problem is two fold, coaches that are available prefer to not coach me, coaches who do not have an issue with my attire are in high demand. Unfortunately I didn't realize that I could be waiting a year or two for an opening with some of these coaches.

Right now I am taking group lessons and I am allowed to wear trousers or skirts, it hasn't been an issue that I know of, although I do get yelled at more for my body positions when I'm not wearing trousers.

As for USFSA, I've tested in a skirt, and I can also do interpretive events in a skirt, although I would be pressed to portray a female when doing so. And after some talking back and forth, I can even do freestyle if I so wished although I could face a .1 deduction for improper attire.

Other things are so hard to explain, I could sit here and go over and over on my thoughts, but most likely it would escape understanding.

Summer is still in planning, fall will be more hectic, that is if everything stays as is. I hope your summer does go well and that you have fun!

Thanks,

Steven

[SDFanatic]

Steven doesn't seem to care much about skating at all.

He only seems to be interested in skating because of the pretty frocks, chance to show off his legs, and a few glitzy rhinestones.

He won't be the first - there are plenty like him out there. But I do wonder why he needs to post on a skating discussion forum (rather than a pretty frocks forum)?
:??

Pretty frocks?

This is exactly why such threads cause problems when people such as yourself stereotype who and what I am.

If you had any idea you would not utter such words, in fact, I dare you to compare the number of times I talk about advocacy or skating to the number of times I talk about "pretty frocks"

Even so, do not people on here talk about costumes that skaters wear? Or should they be regulated to the pretty frocks forum also?

Please be mindful that your assumptions may be incorrect.

Steven

[SDFanatic]

I've not contributed before because it's the same old, same old. I'm fed up of hearing it to be honest. I don't give a stuff what you wear but I'm sick of thread after thread about this one issue. I can understand that you feel hard done by etc etc etc but at the end of the day you need to make a decision as to whether you want to continue with your cause or skate and be coached.

I didn't want to have to wear tan tights and a skating skirt for my tests but I did it because I wanted to skate and wanted to test. I chose the sport, I follow the rules. If I didn't accept the rules then I wouldn't have chosen the sport.

In life you have to make decisions, do you rebel and maybe be limited as to what you can do or do you choose your battles and continue to participate in your chosen hobby?

I have some principles that I will stick to but I'm willing to compromise on others that aren't that important in the grand scheme of things. The choice, as they say, is yours. We've heard your argument so please can we let it rest now?

Well, this is more then the third time this has been mentioned, but maybe we can clarify this.

You do not have to test in a skirt

If you want proof, contact Mary Cook (Cook101346@aol.com) at the USFSA and ask if you can test in trousers. She will reply back saying that you can, print this out and take it with you when you test.

If I as a male am supposed to wear trousers 100% of the time when I am skating, then why can I do an interpretive event, under USFSA rules, in something other then trousers?

In my area, females can get lessons, test, and compete wearing traditionaly male or female clothing, they are not restricted in choice of attire when they participate in this sport.

As for this thread, as others have mentioned, if you do not like it, you need not read, or reply to it, nobody that I know of is forcing you to do so.

Steven

[SDFanatic]

Oh, gawd, another thread about Steven's choices? :roll: Did you notice the last one got locked because it was the same old, same old, ad nauseum? So what did you do? You started another one. Why, the cynical amongst us might begin to suspect that you care more about attention than you do about skating! Please give it a rest. We've heard your arguments a 1000 times, and you've read our thoughts. Nothing to see here. Move along.

I'm sorry skaternum, but you fail to comprehend as to why the thread was locked.

As for attention, it will until it becomes commonplace, some people will never understand, some people will learn and decide how they want to feel about it, others could care less. It will always be an issue with some people, if such a subject continues to be avoided, it will never be resolved and will always cause attention. I hope to teach to those who have an open mind and are willing to listen.

As I told TashaKat, nobody is forcing you to read this thread, if I disturb you this much, you can go to the control panel and ignore my messages.

Steven

[SDFanatic]

Steven....what can we, here on this forum, do for you? I think we all would 'rather be treated equally than be discriminated against.' However, discrimination has an element of perception attached to it---it's not strictly black and white. Sometimes it's more perception than fact. And sometimes you just have to keep putting one foot (or skate) in front of the other despite any discrimination, perceived or actual. You can't change anyone but yourself. Seriously. Quietly doing your own thing will often effect more change than shouting from the rooftops...no matter what your topic.

What we can do is what we are already doing, having an open discussion about it.

While it may seem I enjoy this (stick foot in mouth) I am always open to what others say, I do want to hear what they say and what their thoughts are.

I talk to many people, even some people that were terrified to ever meet me in person, there are few people I have not been able to talk to and have them understand who I am on the inside.

I don't expect anyone to travel in my boat, while it is a sturdy boat, the seas are very rough and I would not put anyone through it that did not want to do so.

Thank You,

Steven

[SDFanatic]

When you love something, you are willing to make sacrifices for it.
It would appear that you don't love skating (maybe just the idea of skating).

True, it's something I need to work out as to how much of myself I want to sacrifice and if I will become something I am not.

As for love, thats for girlfriends, I like skating.

Steven

[SDFanatic]

With absolutely no malice intended, I would like to offer an explanation for Steven's problems and multiple threads here regarding them, that has not yet been proposed. Steven is an exhibitionist. Figure skating in dresses gives him a great way to showcase himself, and writing about it and its concommitant problems here is another showcase for him. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with exhibitionism; we probably wouldn't have any film or TV stars without it, but it is getting a bit tiresome here.

BTW the idea first occurred to me when Steven posted his pix way back when. I'm surprised that no one else has suggested that motive.

Well, this has been said before already, and I will repeat my answer, umm, no.

Only a few people understand the real answer, others fail to understand no matter how many times I say it.

It's only exhibitionism because it is not common, someone mooned me one day, and I was like "so what?" people walk around in thongs nowadays so it's like no big deal.

Steven

[sue123]

I still don't understand why another thread on the same topic is needed after the first one has been locked, doesn't seem like anything new is going to be discovered.

[SDFanatic]

I've just assumed that since he's willing to have a lot of areas in his life made difficult by his decisions, it seems to be more of a compulsion than simply a "whim" of a decision that day.....though he denies it, it sure seems to be something he feels he must do, & therefore to him it's almost not even a choice anymore. Otherwise, why would he do it?

We all conform to wardrobe 'stipulations' as we go through life in one form or another; he doesn't seem able to do that, even at the expense of activities, friends, money, etc. That's going beyond an idle decision/preference.

And what hasn't been pointed out (here, anyway), is that while Steven may be harmless (I don't know him, so have no idea), the world of cross-dressing carries a certain stigma/reputation that puts a legitimate concern on the table for society, and therefore I can understand a rink/club requiring a certain dress code. There are little children involved and I can understand the concerns.

I do have whim, some days I have no idea what I will be wearing, other times I know days in advance what I would like to wear. And I guess I do compel myself in having a choice of attire, such a choice is only wrong because we (in western) society think that it is wrong.

And yes, the world of crossdressing carries many stigmas and reputations, I guess it wouldn't help for me to mention that I was asked not to attend such clubs because I am not a crossdresser or transgendered.

Such assumptions are hard to avoid and are based on just that, assumptions. Statistics prove such assumptions false, but with some people it is is hard to convince them otherwise.

I have less problems with kids then I do with some parents, I would say I have a better then 80% acceptance rate with the mom's and dad's as they took the time to understand me and know I will do no harm to their kids. Others I have not had to do anything as they already had the tolerance to accept diversity.

Steven

[SDFanatic]

I still don't understand why another thread on the same topic is needed after the first one has been locked, doesn't seem like anything new is going to be discovered.

I quote;

Let me be clear---no one is being warned, and the topic is not off-limits. I'm just going to close this particular thread simply because tensions are a touch high.

The topic on hand is not banned and is open for discussion, you do not have to participate in it if you do not wish.

Thanks,

Steven

[Lippylulu]

Ok, I am new here so perhaps I don't understand all that is going on, but I counted at least 9 responses by Steven to his own thread. Seems to me either someone is REALLY trying for negative attention (as of he wasn't getting enough just being a guy in a skirt) OR someone forgot to take his medication today.

Seriously, I have known lots of guys who went through phases of wearing skirts, makeup, etc. Most grow out of it when they realize its just not cool to try to be different and then get upset when people treat you wierd. My only word of advice is this: THERAPY TIME!

[dbny]

Well, this has been said before already, and I will repeat my answer, umm, no.

Only a few people understand the real answer, others fail to understand no matter how many times I say it.

It's only exhibitionism because it is not common, someone mooned me one day, and I was like "so what?" people walk around in thongs nowadays so it's like no big deal.

Steven

Have you checked the definition of exhibitionism?

Per Merriam-Webster, exhibitionism is "the act or practice of behaving so as to attract attention to oneself". You more than qualify.

[SDFanatic]

Ok, I am new here so perhaps I don't understand all that is going on, but I counted at least 9 responses by Steven to his own thread. Seems to me either someone is REALLY trying for negative attention (as of he wasn't getting enough just being a guy in a skirt) OR someone forgot to take his medication today.

Seriously, I have known lots of guys who went through phases of wearing skirts, makeup, etc. Most grow out of it when they realize its just not cool to try to be different and then get upset when people treat you wierd. My only word of advice is this: THERAPY TIME!

Hey! I get some positive attention also! No need to be like the news where they mostly talk about sad things!

As for therapy, only if your paying otherwise I seriosly doubt it.

Steven

P.S. I never went through the phase you mention.

[jazzpants]

Stephen... let's get right to the point...

What do you want out of this thread??? What do you want out of us???

[SDFanatic]

Have you checked the definition of exhibitionism?

Per Merriam-Webster, exhibitionism is "the act or practice of behaving so as to attract attention to oneself". You more than qualify.

And you didn't read my explanation as to why I don't think it is.

Many people who know me don't think twice about it and could care less.

Steven

[SDFanatic]

Stephen... let's get right to the point...

What do you want out of this thread??? What do you want out of us???

I already said what I want, on open discussion of this subject, nobody need particiapte if they do not wish.

I will not force anyone to do anything they do not wish, why they keep complaining to me about my choice of attire when they have a choice of reading or not reading this thread is beyond me.

Others would think to go ahead and lock this thread, which may be a good choice given the heat it generates and all the ice it melts.

I for one would like have a sensable conversation with anyone who is willing to listen. It may take more then three replies however as I once had to talk to a lady for almost an hour before she thanked me.

Other then that I don't expect anyone to help, but you can if you so wish.

Steven

[SkatingOnClouds]

Although I was intrigued by your situation to begin with Steven, I have to say I am over it.

Discrimination is real, it is out there affecting people in very real ways. People are not getting the education they deserve, missing out on jobs, losing jobs, and many other things simply because of what they look like, how old they are, the colour of their skin, their gender, their ethnic origins, religions etc, etc, etc.

I find it vaguely offensive that you are using this forum to bleat about what you perceive to be a serious case of discrimination, when in the end, this is your choice, something you can choose to change.

I have not as yet blocked postings by an individual, however I do not intend to respond to similar posts again. I would suggest that others do likewise. A flame, deprived of its oxygen will extinguish naturally.

[skaternum]

I already said what I want, on open discussion of this subject, nobody need particiapte if they do not wish.Fine. We'll stop reading and posting, because most of us are sick to death of you and your problems. But since you'll undoubtedly find a way to start up the discussion again later (by posting in a thread on dresses, trying to snag some newbie who doesn't know any better, then hijacking that thread), sounds like we should all just put you on our ignore list. Hopefully the naive newbies won't have figured out how to quote your posts yet.

I for one would like have a sensable conversation with anyone who is willing to listen. It may take more then three replies however as I once had to talk to a lady for almost an hour before she thanked me.Dude, we're never going to thank you for beating your chest, bashing us on the head with YOUR issues, and selfishly hogging threads. Get over yourself. We just don't care that much about your issue.

[SDFanatic]

Yes, I can compromise, since some people are disturbed by this thread, I ask anyone who wishes to talk more about this subject to message me privately.

Steven

[Mrs Redboots]

If you want proof, contact Mary Cook (Cook101346@aol.com) at the USFSA and ask if you can test in trousers. She will reply back saying that you can, print this out and take it with you when you test.
There are two totally unwarranted assumptions in your post, and they are:
That the OP is American and thus able to test under the USFSA rules.
That the OP was testing free skating.In fact, neither was the case. As you don't care for us to jump to conclusions about you, please don't do so about others. Pot, meet kettle!

[SDFanatic]

There are two totally unwarranted assumptions in your post, and they are:
That the OP is American and thus able to test under the USFSA rules.
That the OP was testing free skating.In fact, neither was the case. As you don't care for us to jump to conclusions about you, please don't do so about others. Pot, meet kettle!

You are correct, please accept my apologies.

Steven

[Hannah]

Steven, I was initially interested in your issue. I read your posts and the news article, and was sympathizing with you. I was thinking things like "Wow, I wonder how I would have reacted to a man in a skirt at my rink..."

But your new thread was so obviously a bid for attention, when most of the other posters have made it clear that they were no longer interested in discussing the issue. This really turned me off. Now I'm thinking things like, "I wonder if the reason he can't find a coach and people avoid him is because of his personality, not his skirt..."

Although man-skirt-wearing might be decidedly odd in my mind, as a libertarian I can't censure you for it (nor do I want to). You are obviously not hurting anyone, so wear the skirts to your heart's content! (And you are right, they are very pretty.) But please don't continue to push the issue on people who obviously don't want to hear about it anymore.

[samba]

I was hounded on my lesson last week for having a "hunchback" After I straightened up a bit and dropped my shoulders I felt the edge I needed to be on. Something I only ever felt once with my old boots and blades, hopefully I can repeat this on my next lesson and that it's not a one time deal again.

Steven
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.



Have I missed something here?

[SDFanatic]

Wrong thread, try here (http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=20502)

Steven

[Skittl1321]

But I thought you couldn't find a coach? Those posts clearly refer to lessons and a coach. Problem solved, I guess :)

[SDFanatic]

But I thought you couldn't find a coach? Those posts clearly refer to lessons and a coach. Problem solved, I guess :)

I'm sending you a private message about this.

Steven

[icenut84]

You seem a little bit obsessed with the whole skirt-wearing thing! You may see it as people trying to make you be someone you're not or whatever, but really, what you wear is not the only thing that makes you who you are. There are a lot of personality attributes that make you who you are, clothing may portray preferences but it really isn't the be-all and end-all. Think of people who have to wear a uniform, either in school or for a job. They may not think the uniform represents their identity/individuality (they might dress like a Goth outside of work, or wear funky jewellery, or dress very prim and proper or whatever), but sometimes you have to wear a certain thing just to comply with the rules. You wouldn't get a policeman going on about his right to wear stilletoes while out on the beat, just because he likes to wear them in his house. You see what I mean? By you talking about your dresses etc, it's like you're saying that's the only thing that defines who you are and that you can't let your actual personality talk for itself. You say you have no problem with practices, and with doing group lessons in a dress - is it really the end of the world if you have to wear trousers for private lessons? Surely it's worth it to be able to skate and learn? I have to travel for 1.5-2 hours just to get to the nearest rink when I'm at home, and in a few months I don't know if I'll even be able to carry on skating at all. You, however, have the opportunity, and when you have the skating bug you make the effort to do it, even if you have to make a few sacrifices, like travelling for me and like wearing trousers for half an hour a week for you.

[jazzpants]

How about we change the answer to....

42!!!

:mrgreen: (Sorry, Steven! Couldn't resist making a "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" reference...) :lol: :halo: