Backwards skating (just stroking, nothing fancy)

[Hannah]

After a :x group lesson this evening, I need the kind and gentle help of the skating forum skaters.

My group's coach insisted that we practice three-turns for about ten minutes. I just read through the 3-turn thread, and laughed when I saw the emphasis on edges. I'm so far from even THINKING about edges when I'm not moving forward.

Here's my problem. I can't GO backward. I can swizzle, but I can't even glide between swizzles. Backward wiggles? I look either like I'm trying to do the Twist or like I'm trying to swat a fly with my bum. Pushing myself off a wall? I get a few feet but somehow stop long before my momentum should run out. :frus:

Because I can't even go backward, my three-turns consist of the following: Gliding forward, an abrupt motion and if I'm lucky I end up at a dead stop facing the other direction. Other variations include: the abrupt movement, a toepick noise accompanied by “ah crap” and ending up sitting on the ice; the abrupt movement, after which I catch my edge and end up sitting on the ice; any of the above where I end up flailing my arms and sitting on the ice.

I did about 25 of these, and there really isn't anything like failing 25 times in a row to make you feel just f**king cheery. :twisted:

So I need to learn to skate backward. Any tips? There is always someone who has come up with a really useful (and often cute) description of how to accomplish something. (For example: "Hugging the circle" to remember which arm goes in front and which goes in back.) Thanks, ladies and gents.

[Rusty Blades]

Hi Hannah! I am at exactly the same point so I understand your frustration.

What has been helping me is to concentrate on backward sculling (swizzles). Don't worry about making them big or fast, just comfortable and keep at it. I think it took me an hour of backward sculling before I started to find my backward balance. When you find your backward balance, you will find your backward two-foot glides come together and your distance will improve. After that, you will find you are able to do "half swizzles" (keeping one foot on a line while doing a swizzle with the other foot - then repeat on the other side). It isn't far from there to backward stroking.

[I have just got my backward half-swizzles in the last lesson.]

[Tinkerbell]

I don't know if this will help at all. It's hard for me to quantify exactly what goes on when I'm moving backwards (not to any advanced degree, mind you) but I find that if I try to employ the same balance placement backwards as forwards, I am way too far forward. So maybe lean back just a little. Not too much, though. And bend your knees. That being said, just now when I tried to imagine (and got up to try it) the backwards vs the forwards one foot glide, the backwards sits a little further back. Like the intent to move backwards makes your body do it.

I can't believe they threw you into three turns right away prior to any work on pumps or one foot gliding.

I say keep at it. I like to use the wall to help me when I'm having trouble with getting momentum. The more times you do it, I think, your muscles eventually figure it out.

[cassarilda]

Do you have someone who can gently push you around the rink backwards just to get your balance?

It helps give you an idea of what it feels like and where you need your weight to be... and I dont mean holding hands... you shouldnt be putting weight on them... I tend to push people around with two fingers against their open palms :)

Also, three turns and backwards is much easier if you can balance easier on one foot... if youre having troubles, try swizzles - its making a hourglass or curvy woman shape with your skates ;) try them forwards first, and then backwards.. helps with your balance and push...

Also, dont lean too much either way.... pretend like you are sitting on a chair... bend knees, straight back... you will lean/bend slightly naturally, but dont do it too exagerated

But like everything... it helps if you practise practise and practise :)

If you need any help, feel free to ask :) Ive just got them, so I feel your pain! :)

[Skittl1321]

So what's the secret of moving beyond the wiggle/swizzle/glide backwards to actually doing backwards stroking?

It was demonstrated as something like a half swizzle and then push off an edge, but which edge? And is that half-swizzle just there for learning how to do the edge push, or is it really part of backwards stroking? (Forwards stroking just involves pushing on an edge)

[Mrs Redboots]

Make absolutely sure your feet are together, and that you have the "sitting in a chair" position. If you stop and think about it, if your feet are apart, you are constantly having to shift your centre of gravity from one side to the other, and do not make life easy for yourself! Whereas, if your feet are close together, you don't have to move your top half so much. Again, I refer you to the FAQ (http://home.pacbell.net/anamga/basicSkating.html#2.8).

If it's any consolation, I spent months and months trying to work out how to glide backwards, quite often helping myself with my hands at the barrier! And even now, years later, I still hate skating backwards when I don't have to, and find it a great deal less easy than forwards - much to the surprise of many of my figure-skating friends, who prefer backwards!

[Rusty Blades]

And is that half-swizzle just there for learning how to do the edge push, or is it really part of backwards stroking?

It is part of the stroking. The half-swizzles get you used to doing the weight transfer from your pushing foot to your gliding foot (even if you don't lift your pushing foot). By having almost all of your weight on your gliding foot, you are experiencing your backward edges and flats.

For myself, being at the half-swizzle stage, I can "feel" the backward stroking coming soon.

[Mrs. Redboots: When I skated before, back in the Dark Ages, I LOVED backwards! Most competitive skaters are MUCH stronger backward because most all the jumps are entered from a back edge. I skated only once after leaving competitive skating, about 4 years later, and could ONLY skate backwards! Frontward seemed SO strange.... Now, 36 years later it is the backwards that is taking so much work.]

[Isk8NYC]

So what's the secret of moving beyond the wiggle/swizzle/glide backwards to actually doing backwards stroking?

Ah, my specialty! I teach these very well, mainly because I had to learn them for Patch (figures.)

Start by doing backward two-foot swizzles. Then do 3 swizzles followed by a glide with your feet together. Feel what happens as you shift your weight from one foot to the other - get used to the feeling.

Next step is 3 swizzles followed by a glide where one foot "trails" the other. You have to bend your knees really deeply to make this happen. (Think of having uneven feet - not next-to-each-other.) Your weight is on the leading foot, not the trailing foot.

Now, start doing swizzles with one foot - the trailing foot. Your leading foot "rides" and carries your weight while the trailing foot does these little swizzles to push you along. The motion should be from the farthest point, out (heel first) to make a curve, then d-r-a-w the trailing foot to the toe of the leading foot. The shape should be like a question mark (or the mirror of a question mark.) At no time (unless you're resting) should your feet be even.

Okay? Now you're ready to try the backward stroking. Do the question mark swizzles, keeping your weight on the leading foot. As you bring the trailing foot around the swizzle, LIFT it up in front and close your legs. (To make it look nice, hold the free foot in front of the other foot and turn so the skate is "presented" prettily.) Ta Da! You be stroking, dude. Remember to bring both feet together and then switch to the uneven stride on the other foot, shifting your weight accordingly.

In group lessons with beginners, I progressively teach this over 4-5 weeks. By the fifth week, most of the students can do it, albeit without style. By the end of our ten-week sessions, all but one will have mastered it. The one holdout will refuse to make his/her feet uneven, for whatever reason. There's a litany of excuses: skate fit, tying, clothing too tight/loose/ugly, and (my all-time fav) horseback riding accident! Happens in every class, and I know that they'll get it eventually because they'll WANT to master back crossovers.

[Isk8NYC]

Here's my problem. I can't GO backward. I can swizzle, but I can't even glide between swizzles. Backward wiggles? I look either like I'm trying to do the Twist or like I'm trying to swat a fly with my bum. Pushing myself off a wall? I get a few feet but somehow stop long before my momentum should run out.

Okay, start with the backward gliding. Stand in front of the glass and look at your nose. Make fists and put them knuckle-first against the glass. Your feet should be straight and perpendicular to the wall. Close your knees and bend them, along with your elbows. Now, use your knuckles to push off the wall by straightening your elbows and bring your hands up to point at your nose's reflection in the glass. Don't straighten your knees. You should glide backwards if you stay off your toe picks and don't let your feet spread apart or go crooked.

Don't forget the fists - open hands make people "grab" for the wall, which in turn lowers your arms. When you lower your arms below chest height, you'll bend forward and break at the waist - a no-no.

Once you get used to this, do three swizzles and glide. Make sure you bring your feet back together and close your legs. Keep your knees bent and your feet straight.

BTW, what skates are you wearing? If they're dull, they can slide sideways and stop any gliding.

Finally, if you feel like you're doing The Twist, you're doing it right! Practice making each twist count by putting more "push" on the edges as you shift your weight back-and-forth.

[Tinkerbell]

Just a quick question about switching sides. Why is it that when I go to pump right I have very little trouble. It took me a day or two to get the feel for the motion and the push-off. The left however, though I thought feet ought to be mostly anbedextrous, I feel so retarded. Though I know what to do, I can't seem to get my left foot to push off at the right angle. It really feels like trying to write with my left hand (harder, actually.)
Will I ever overcome this?

[Skittl1321]

The left however, though I thought feet ought to be mostly anbedextrous,

I don't have any helpful advice (my left foot is much weaker than my right! I still can't do a snowplow stop on my left side and here we are starting backwards snowplow stops) but can tell you that feet are most definetly not ambidextrous. Think about it this way. When you walk up stairs, which foot do you start with. When you kick a soccer ball- which do you start with. When you just stand slouching into a hip, which side do you lean to? I can answer all those questions with "my right side" which explains easily why my right is stronger than my left :)

[Rusty Blades]

I thought feet ought to be mostly ambidextrous

I am truly ambi-foot-erous :roll: but which side is "my good side" varies from day to day and is VERY apparent. It causes my coach fits of laughter and she never has to ask which side is "on" today because it shows up clearly with something as simple as outside edges. She laughs hysterically every time "my good side" switches from one foot to the other!

Will I ever overcome this?

Most certainly! My left edges came back first and I had to work additional WEEKS to get my RF edges. (Now I get to do it all again on the backward edges.)

[phoenix]

You have a dominant foot/leg, just as you have a dominant hand. In fact, though you don't know it, you also have a dominant ear and eye. To become more ambidextrous on your non-dominant leg, you just have to practice things a lot more on that side. I tell my kids, for every one 'X' that you do on your good side, you should do 2 on your hard side. It takes a long time to get really comfortable with some moves.

I like Isk8NY's way of teaching back 1/2 swizzles, with first doing the 2 foot glide w/ one trailing foot. I'm going to try that!

When it comes to teaching true backward stroking, I do it a little differently, probably because I'm coming at it from the angle of an ice dancer. I teach a backward stroke as a *quarter* swizzle.....the foot pushes to the side & slightly front (you're pushing w/ the inside edge)--and once the leg is fully extended, it leaves the ice and you're done with the stroke--and you're now gliding backward with the free foot extended in front.


That's the way a dancer strokes backward & to me that is a true backward stroke--it looks so weird to me to see someone do a full 1/2 swizzle, foot out & back in, and then it leaves the ice & does a funny little kick to the front.

That's the finished product, of course. To start people out, I simply have them stand w/ feet slightly apart, with toes turned in as if you're going to do a back swizzle. Then, keeping the toes turned in, just rock from side to side (don't move your feet forward/back at all!), lifting each foot as you shift your weight. If you keep your toes turned in, you will start moving backward.

[dbny]

In addition to the advice given above, if you are having trouble moving backwards it's very likely that the cause is that your weight is too far forward so that you are slowing/stopping yourself by dragging your toepicks. The cause of that is usually one of two thing, or even both:

1) you are looking down, and your head is then tilted down putting your weight forward.

2) you are breaking (bending forward) at the waist, which can also come from looking down.

If you have a strong habit of looking down, you need to watch out for having your head tilted down even when you look ahead. If you feel that you are looking up, then most likely you are just moving your eyes up and not straightening your head also.

[Hannah]

Thank you very much, everyone. I'll try these suggestions out during adult skate tomorrow morning. :)

[Aleeta]

I was just able to finally figure out how to do a better 1-foot glide backwards during our adult skate today. (in other words, keep my free foot off the ice for longer than 1 second!) I have been working on it for weeks becuase it was highly recommended to me by a fellow skater to be comfortable with backwards 1-foot glides before starting 3-turns (which I despirately want to do!).

Several weeks ago, I started by just getting really comfortable with the sensation of going backwards, so I spent 20-30 minutes just doing backwards swizzles around the rink until I was very comfortable with them. (at least half of figureskating involves going backwards, so I figured I should get it to feel very comfy) Next I started doing swizzle, swizzle, 2-foot glide and trying to shift my weight to pick up a foot. I did this for what seemed like forever, with limited sucess, then last Thursday someone suggested that I do what I am guessing is backwards sculling, swizzle with one foot, glide a little, swizzle with the other foot. What this ended up doing was putting me on my outside edge (without me realizing it at first). Then today while I was doing a combination of swizzles and sculling while trying to pick up one foot, I realized that I could pick up a foot much easier when I was on my outside edge and not flat or on my inside edge.

I'm definately not an expert, but that's what worked for me, hope it helps! :)

[VegasGirl]

Hannah,

it sounds to me like you're to stiff in the knees and thus can't get any backward motion going... that would probably also explain the toe pick catch on the 3-turn since you'd be forced to pput your weight too far forward. Your weight should be pretty much smack over your ankle... I always compare it to the strings on a marionette... pretend there is a string running from your shoulder straight down through your butt and to your ankles. :)
Here's one thing I tell people (that keep their kneew to stiff) to try when they ask for help with their backward skating (especially cross overs). With your feet together and knees stiff try to make a half circle with one foot to propel you backward... how big is that going to be? Not very big and thus not much momentum is put into motion. Now try the same motion with your knees soft and bending... compare. They're usually amazed at the difference.... which is why I think that you're not bending in your knees properly.

[YouRaiseMeUp]

When you're doing backward swizzles, put your weight on the balls of your feet (without tipping or leaning foward too far) and keep your knees bent. I tried backward swizzles in group lessons for about five weeks before I finally "got" it.

[Rusty Blades]

Hi Hannah - hope you're still there.

I spent a LOT of time doing backward sculling but just COULDN'T seem to get to backward one-foot glides and stroking. I just couldn't seem to get the right balance for backward. In the last couple of sessions I found something that worked for me.

My problem was that I was not getting the weight over my skating foot enough - like I didn't trust myself to one foot when going backwards - so I started at the boards (on the long side of the rink) with my left side facing the boards. I'd start myself moving with the weight on the left foot and do a "half-swizzle" with the right foot to get myself moving backward and try to transfer my weight to balance on the left foot. You've got the boards to grab on to if you got too far to the left or you can put your right foot down if you don't get far enough to the left. When I'd reach the far end, I'd turn around and go the other way.

In about an hour of doing this, I was getting my weight properly transferred and was getting some descent one foot backward glides (though not necessarily very long). By the second hour, I was actually getting some backward stroking.

As an old fogie with a subconscious fear of falling on my tailbone, I found working along the boards was a great security blanket that let me get my weight fully onto my skating foot, knowing I could grab the boards if I got over too far. Once you start getting your one foot glides, you get used to the feeling and it will build your confidence.
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