Pre Bronze Freeskate at AN Petition- please sign!!

[Terri C]

Okay all, before you go into a tirade about why Pre Bronze skaters can't/ won't compete at AN, PLEASE read the text of the petition!
There are some very good reasons why Pre Bronze should be offered at AN and they are all here!
Thanks in advance for the support!

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/PreBrzFS/

BTW, apologies to our out of US skaters, but only USFS members can sign!

[mantysk8er]

I signed it. Good luck!

[jazzpants]

I signed it. Good luck!Thank you!!! We appreciate it!!! :mrgreen:

[dbny]

Done! 8-)

[sk8er1964]

Done. Good luck!

[dcden]

I am curious: what were the arguments for/against this motion as presented in the Adult Committee meeting in Dallas. As with many things that weekend, it wasn't very well advertised so I wound up missing it.

[Terri C]

Thank you dbny and sk8er1964!!!
Den, the main objection was that there is a proposal on the table to implement the NJS at AN 2007 for Gold and Masters events and the time issue with that. From what I have heard, the NJS implementation was not passed at the BOD in October but sent back to committee. It will take a vote at GC to pass the NJS implementation.
However, with the dwindling numbers at AN and the fiasco that was Dallas,having us Pre Bronzers can help increase numbers and energy!!
And the reasons for Pre Bronze- read the petition text- it will tell you everything!!

[sexyskates]

OK, signed. I hope to see you at AN next year!

[MusicSkateFan]

:roll: I do support you pre-bronze skaters.....I was one not so long ago. In my limited experience,however, I do feel that Bronze is the lowest level that should be skated at AN. There is no other "Pre" category....what would be next..."Pre-silver" "Pre-Gold" "Pre-Masters"? All of which could have the exact same argument as yours.....

I expect to be in a similar situation next year...very possible that I wont qualify for silver...should I petition for a pre-silver event?

Practice....Practice...... If it is supposed to happen it will!

[Isk8NYC]

What tirade? (I signed, BTW) You're asking for a reasonable correction of an oversight. The category didn't exist when the competition was created. The committee needs to address the needs of a huge portion of their skating population.

I tested/competed before there were Adult categories in USFSA. That's why I'm only a USFSA Preliminary level skater - I stopped testing USFSA when I found out I had no hope of winning a competition event. I switched to ISI-only because it was the better option for me as a 20-something. If the Adult tracks (or even just the comps) had existed, I probably would have stuck with the USFSA. I skated at a USFSA Dance/Freestyle club for years and loved it!

Good luck. I hope your petition passes and the committees realize the fairness of your request and the revenue-generation potential it represents.

[dbny]

There is no other "Pre" category....what would be next..."Pre-silver" "Pre-Gold" "Pre-Masters"? All of which could have the exact same argument as yours.....

The difference is that you CAN compete at AN in Bronze, whereas the Pre Bronze skaters cannot compete there at all!

[NoVa Sk8r]

I agree with MSF. (and should we create pre-bronze pairs as well?)

In the standard track for nationals, there is a threshold. Pre-preliminary, preliminary, and pre-juvenile are not eligible for nationals. The entry level is juvenile. (Junior Nats includes juvenile and intermediate levels, while Senior Nats includes novice, junior, and senior levels.) IMO, I believe the same base level should apply here.

Also, Adult Nationals is now Wed.-Sat. Adding pre-bronze (and whose freestyle test does NOT require a program) would make AN very lengthy and scheduling would be even more of a Herculean task.

[mr7740]

Den, the main objection was that there is a proposal on the table to implement the NJS at AN 2007 for Gold and Masters events and the time issue with that. From what I have heard, the NJS implementation was not passed at the BOD in October but sent back to committee. It will take a vote at GC to pass the NJS implementation.



Forgive my ignorance, but what is the NJS implementation and what does that change?

[SDFanatic]

Signed!

Steven (maybe I should make a petition for a coach?)

[dcden]

However, with the dwindling numbers at AN and the fiasco that was Dallas,having us Pre Bronzers can help increase numbers and energy!! And the reasons for Pre Bronze- read the petition text- it will tell you everything!!

Well, the fiasco that was Dallas had nothing to do with number of starts (though Dallas was disappointing in that respect), it was the scheduling issue that has been covered extensively here already.

Re the petition text:

1) "Bronze Test Requirements back in 1995-1996 were essentially what Pre-Bronze freestyle is now. Pre-Bronze was not added until about 1997 and the current Bronze freestyle elements were upgraded to what it is now."

This actually seems like an argument against, not for, having PB in AN. Essentially, it sounds like the rules were made more stringent in 1997 because the powers that be did indeed want skaters to "earn their eligibility", and used the very rule change you cite to express this sentiment. As with any rule change, you can't (or shouldn't) make it retroactive to force those who passed a certain level to have to retest to maintain their eligibility, so that's why the 95-96 Bronze skaters were spared. But it seems like the powers that be realized, once we had two years to see just what kind of skaters (and what kind of skating) would emerge from the adult skating community, that the requirements needed to be more restrictive to properly track adult skaters, and so the change was made.

2) "Pre-Bronze skaters are now required to pass both Moves and freestyle tests too, just like all the other levels"

This sounds like neither an argument for nor against having PB in AN. The MIF tests were instituted across the board for the adults. Nothing more was added to Pre-Bronze that wasn't added to the other levels. Everyone now has to pass moves tests to progress up the adult track. Using this reasoning, one could argue that Silver level skaters should compete in Gold, or Gold skaters in Masters.

3) "addition of the Pre-Bronze freestyle well balanced program rules for Pre-Bronze freestyle skaters"

See #2. The well balanced requirements were added across the board, not just in Pre-Bronze, so this is a bit irrelevant.

4) "There seems to be a drop in the numbers of adults attending Adult Nationals"

This seems to be your strongest argument, and one that you should try to sell. No one can argue with the power of cold hard cash, and I can't deny that Pre-Bronzers would generate that kind of cash. But one would need to study the potential number of PB starts as well as to see if the number of starts increases in Chicago in 2007, which I'm suspecting it will. If so, that increase may offset the need for more starts from Pre-Bronzers, but an LOC person or an Ann Dougherty would be the best person to make that determination.

Finally, I want to reiterate my main problem with this movement. Currently, the Pre-Bronze freestyle test does not require a program set to music, only that the elements be done one at a time as asked for by one judge. Also, the test is marked pass/retry rather than given a numeric technical and artistic mark. To me these are two reasons why the current Pre-Bronze freestyle test is not a reliable enough indicator as to whether a skater is eligible for AN. Granted, the PB folks who have put together this petition have all skated freestyle events at numerous competitions with PB level, but PB would also include people who have not even attempted a program at all. So I would only be comfortable with allowing PB at AN if the PB free test was changed accordingly. While I know many PB skaters would say "But I DO have program experience" that was by your choice, but wouldn't necessarily apply to all PB skaters; such a level of mastery would need to be part of the test structure as well.

[manleywoman]

I tested/competed before there were Adult categories in USFSA. That's why I'm only a USFSA Preliminary level skater - I stopped testing USFSA when I found out I had no hope of winning a competition event.
This is a bit off-topic, but I hate attitudes like this. You shouldn't give up on something only because you "found out you had no hope of winning.":?? It;s a COMPETITION! Not everyone goes home with medals. Sometimes I win a medal, sometimes I don't. Franky you shouldn't bother coming to ANs at all and just stick with ISI if you only want to compete if you're guaranteed a medal, because there's a good chance you'll be disappointed.
If the Adult tracks (or even just the comps) had existed, I probably would have stuck with the USFSA. I skated at a USFSA Dance/Freestyle club for years and loved it!
See, that's what all this SHOULD be about. So why didn't you stick with it since you loved it so much? According to your earlier paragraph it's because you couldn't win medals. That's really too bad IMO.

[manleywoman]

This seems to be your strongest argument, and one that you should try to sell. No one can argue with the power of cold hard cash, and I can't deny that Pre-Bronzers would generate that kind of cash.
Well, a good immediate comparison would be the recent inclusion of letting the 21-24 year olds compete. We kept hearing for years and years complaints from theis age group that they weren't allowed to compete. And many thought that their inclusion would bring a ton of new skaters and a ton of money. So now that they are allowed in, did we see a huge increase in the numbers (read: $$$$$) at ANs this year? I'd be curious to know. I know that for Masters Men/Ladies we had an additional, what, 6-7 of that age group?

[WhisperSung]

While I can understand the reasoning behind not having it (i.e., there are no national level competitions for pre-preliminary, preliminary, and pre-juvenile), my understanding of adult competitions is that they welcome everyone who loves the sport and wants to compete. At least, that's the experience I've had with it from attending AN for the first time this year (thank you, also, to those of you who got the age limite lowered to 21. . .I've been waiting what seemed like forever to turn 25 and get to compete!).

I don't think there's much harm in adding pre-bronzers to the list. They'll still have to prove their mettle by passing the pre-bronze tests and putting together a competant program. And there were scheduling problems this year without pre-bronze skaters there. It's hard for me to see the difference it would make in adding them. Besides, it seems like a main goal is having fun, skating your best, and meeting new friends, and that should be allowed at any level IMHO.

I've signed. Good luck! :)

[Isk8NYC]

This is a bit off-topic, but I hate attitudes like this. You shouldn't give up on something only because you "found out you had no hope of winning.":?? It;s a COMPETITION! Not everyone goes home with medals. Sometimes I win a medal, sometimes I don't. Franky you shouldn't bother coming to ANs at all and just stick with ISI if you only want to compete if you're guaranteed a medal, because there's a good chance you'll be disappointed.

See, that's what all this SHOULD be about. So why didn't you stick with it since you loved it so much? According to your earlier paragraph it's because you couldn't win medals. That's really too bad IMO.

Wait. You're condemning me without the whole story. At my first USFSA competition, a kindly judge took me aside and told me that they just COULDN'T give me a first because I was too old. They had to "save" those wins for kids who needed them for qualifying comps. (To add insult to injury, she also told me my skirt was too short. :roll: ) I checked around and found that, in this area, that was the norm. No adults competed USFSA, they became ice dancers. (Don't yell at me, this is what the COACHES told me.) Remember, this is before they had the Adult track or even the Basic Skills curriculum. I didn't give up - I was turned away!

While the test structures of USFSA are more to my liking, I loved skating ISI and tested up to FS5, working on FS6/7. My USFSA club had folded, so I joined an ISI club and didn't look back. I skated at ISI Nationals, earning several medals, none of them gold. Best skating experience of my life -- everyone should have that opportunity.

I made some wonderful friends, some of whom were the best competitors and sportswomen I've ever met. Winning wasn't the important thing. Friends were, and still are, the most important part of skating and competing.

One of my main competitors was also one of my best friends. We used to skate at Rock Center together during lunch, then go to evening freestyles, followed by hanging out at the Calico Kitchen in Totowa, NJ until the wee hours of the morning. When she moved up to FS3, I skipped that level so we wouldn't be head-to-head. My FS4 skills were so-so, but my friend was more important than the comp results.

I only stopped skating/competing because adult life got in the way: Grad School, DH, KIDS!
I'm currently an instructor and coach for both USFSA and ISI programs (and I'm a PSA member). In my home rink, I'm the ISI specialist because of my knowledge and background. Frankly, I'm not interested at this point of my life in skating at AN, but I might be sometime down the road. My goal right now is preparing skaters to achieve their best and become good competitors and sportsmen/women.

The USFSA adult track has the potential to be just as welcoming and inclusive (not to mention fun!) as the ISI was for me in the 1980's. As a result, I sympathize with the Pre-Bronze testers wanting to be included in this competition. They've got my support because it's a great opportunity that they shouldn't have to miss out on just because they've only taken one test. Life's too short to wait until they pass the next level.

Don't get too worked up, either in anger or pity for me: I made the most of what was available to me when I skated in the 1980's. I came back from a hiatus to find a brave new world for adults: new tests, comps, web boards, and MITF! It's a great improvement that can lead to future growth.

[jazzpants]

Well, the fiasco that was Dallas had nothing to do with number of starts (though Dallas was disappointing in that respect), it was the scheduling issue that has been covered extensively here already.

Re the petition text:

1) "Bronze Test Requirements back in 1995-1996 were essentially what Pre-Bronze freestyle is now. Pre-Bronze was not added until about 1997 and the current Bronze freestyle elements were upgraded to what it is now."

This actually seems like an argument against, not for, having PB in AN. Essentially, it sounds like the rules were made more stringent in 1997 because the powers that be did indeed want skaters to "earn their eligibility", and used the very rule change you cite to express this sentiment. As with any rule change, you can't (or shouldn't) make it retroactive to force those who passed a certain level to have to retest to maintain their eligibility, so that's why the 95-96 Bronze skaters were spared. But it seems like the powers that be realized, once we had two years to see just what kind of skaters (and what kind of skating) would emerge from the adult skating community, that the requirements needed to be more restrictive to properly track adult skaters, and so the change was made.This was to address that we've been overlooked when they added Pre-Bronze FS in 1997. There were no specific notes from my research on Google that specifically addressed why Pre-Bronze FS was specifically not allowed to compete at AN when Pre-Bronze was added on. Ironically, the only thing that was addressed at the time was to push for AN becoming a regular yearly event that happens every year. The general tone I got from that time was to proving that USFS that adult skaters are just as serious skaters as the kids.

2) "Pre-Bronze skaters are now required to pass both Moves and freestyle tests too, just like all the other levels"

This sounds like neither an argument for nor against having PB in AN. The MIF tests were instituted across the board for the adults. Nothing more was added to Pre-Bronze that wasn't added to the other levels. Everyone now has to pass moves tests to progress up the adult track. Using this reasoning, one could argue that Silver level skaters should compete in Gold, or Gold skaters in Masters.Yup! That's the point. Everyone, including PreBronze skaters, are testing on pretty much a levelled field. Why should Pre-Bronze be excluded from their own Nationals, if they are also

3) "addition of the Pre-Bronze freestyle well balanced program rules for Pre-Bronze freestyle skaters"

See #2. The well balanced requirements were added across the board, not just in Pre-Bronze, so this is a bit irrelevant.It wasn't clear across the board! Pre-Bronze FS well balanced requirements was NOT implement until this past year (See Section 303. (http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/05Adults-ROA.pdf)) The reason it wasn't initially implement back in 2002 when the first of the "well-balanced program requirement" for all the other skating levels but not Pre-Bronze FS is anyone's guess. But we wanted to eliminate this concern as a reason not to include Pre-Bronze FS at Adult Nationals.

The point I was trying to make is that we are following well-balanced program rules, just like all the other level. #2 and #3 is to show mainly that we have the USFSA rules and infrastructure in place to make adding Pre-Bronze FS a smooth transition. We are following the same type of rules that the other Adult levels are doing.


4) "There seems to be a drop in the numbers of adults attending Adult Nationals"

This seems to be your strongest argument, and one that you should try to sell. No one can argue with the power of cold hard cash, and I can't deny that Pre-Bronzers would generate that kind of cash. But one would need to study the potential number of PB starts as well as to see if the number of starts increases in Chicago in 2007, which I'm suspecting it will. If so, that increase may offset the need for more starts from Pre-Bronzers, but an LOC person or an Ann Dougherty would be the best person to make that determination.Yup! We are trying to sell using this point. I mean we allowed the age level to drop to 21 and well, we got only 450 skaters this year at AN. Why not give us a try to try to raise that number a bit?

Finally, I want to reiterate my main problem with this movement. Currently, the Pre-Bronze freestyle test does not require a program set to music, only that the elements be done one at a time as asked for by one judge. Also, the test is marked pass/retry rather than given a numeric technical and artistic mark. To me these are two reasons why the current Pre-Bronze freestyle test is not a reliable enough indicator as to whether a skater is eligible for AN. Granted, the PB folks who have put together this petition have all skated freestyle events at numerous competitions with PB level, but PB would also include people who have not even attempted a program at all.Well, then having those PB skaters do a program to music at AN according to #3 would be a good learning experience for them, wouldn't it? ;)

So I would only be comfortable with allowing PB at AN if the PB free test was changed accordingly. While I know many PB skaters would say "But I DO have program experience" that was by your choice, but wouldn't necessarily apply to all PB skaters; such a level of mastery would need to be part of the test structure as well.While it may be true about Pre-Bronze tests requiring only a pass/retry and that our FS test does not require music, when you are talking about competing at the Pre-Bronze level, you have to compete according to #3. There's an expectation that people have to do a program! It's not like we're just skating around with no music!!! We're required to do jumps, spins, connecting moves and footwork to music and have the same time limit as a Bronze level skaters, just like everyone else.

BTW: Just so people don't think that I'm slackin'... most of you know I am still working on Bronze moves and FS test. I've been working on becoming a Bronze lady for over 5.5 YEARS!!! For a lot of us, we have physical obstacles getting in the way of passing this test. In my case, I have a bad lower back, very closed hips, numerous injuries cause by falls and boots that broke down and trying to become somewhat flexible enough to do some of those moves given my age (I'm a Class III... yeah, I know I don't look it. ;) ) is gonna be a bigger obstacle than if I started skating at age 21.

BTW: Even if this proposal passes, I can say for myself that I am continuing on with my plans to get my Bronze moves and FS test out of the way THIS YEAR!!! (And you guys know that as of October of last year I was very close to passing the test. One judge passed me!) I have been working hard since then to make sure that I've covered those concerns the judges had about my test. I have a Bronze FS program already, ready to test, when I do pass my Bronze Moves test. So this isn't something to allow me to slack off. Frankly, I want to get my Bronze test out of the way so I can work on other things. (Working on Prelim and Pre-Juv moves tests, jump combinations, spin combinations.) :twisted:

In the standard track for nationals, there is a threshold. Pre-preliminary, preliminary, and pre-juvenile are not eligible for nationals. The entry level is juvenile. (Junior Nats includes juvenile and intermediate levels, while Senior Nats includes novice, junior, and senior levels.) IMO, I believe the same base level should apply here.With all due respect, I will have to disagree with you here, because you are not addressing the spirit of which Adult Nationals was started, to allow skaters to meet and compete other adult skaters (and no, ISI is not good enough...) It's a whole different animal, NoVa. If you make it exactly like the standard track, you might as well be competing at the standard track!

Also, Adult Nationals is now Wed.-Sat. Adding pre-bronze (and whose freestyle test does NOT require a program) would make AN very lengthy and scheduling would be even more of a Herculean task.
Yes, but with significantly LESS events and less skaters this year!!! I've read somewhere around here that this year it was 450 and "it was more like a well attended Sectionals than an Adult Nationals" compared to AN back in 2001-2002. The adult skating committee knows this and is concerned because we're not making enough money in the AN events. They've tried lower the age limit to 21 to try to get more skaters on. Well, the word is out for well over a year that if "you're legal to party and drink you can compete at AN" and we still have 450 skaters!!! Pre-Bronze skaters can fill up this gap and provide the revenues needed.

Give us the oppty that we've been long overdue for -- to be able to share with you in the experience being a competitor at AN! (Besides, we'll throw more vodka nips for you at your event, NoVa... :P ;) )

[sk8pics]

:roll: I do support you pre-bronze skaters.....I was one not so long ago. In my limited experience,however, I do feel that Bronze is the lowest level that should be skated at AN. There is no other "Pre" category....what would be next..."Pre-silver" "Pre-Gold" "Pre-Masters"? All of which could have the exact same argument as yours.....

I expect to be in a similar situation next year...very possible that I wont qualify for silver...should I petition for a pre-silver event?

Practice....Practice...... If it is supposed to happen it will!

Actually, Pre-Bronze Dancers are allowed to compete. AND if you have finished your pre-bronze dances you are allowed to enter the interpretive event.

What are you talking about with "a pre-silver event?" You can still skate Bronze if you don't pass your silver moves, so that is not a good comparison. And, with all due respect, you have no idea if an older skater, and one who started as an older adult (like over 35) will ever be able to pass the Bronze tests. There could be one sticking point and yet that person's skills may have developed in other areas. Should that person be denied the opportunity to compete at Adult Nationals forever?


So now that they are allowed in, did we see a huge increase in the numbers (read: $$$$$) at ANs this year?
Bronze I had only 10 skaters, and some of them were already over 25, so it (adding the 21-24 year olds) didn't add many numbers at that level.

Also, Adult Nationals is now Wed.-Sat. Adding pre-bronze (and whose freestyle test does NOT require a program) would make AN very lengthy and scheduling would be even more of a Herculean task.
It wasn't even 4 full days, was it? Didn't the schedule end early? If adding the 21 - 24 year olds added a few hours to the competition I would guess the numbers wouldn't be THAT much higher to add pre-bronze freestyle. Besides, the fees that the pre-bronze skaters pay would provide additional profit and cover the ice costs.

Granted, the PB folks who have put together this petition have all skated freestyle events at numerous competitions with PB level, but PB would also include people who have not even attempted a program at all. So I would only be comfortable with allowing PB at AN if the PB free test was changed accordingly. While I know many PB skaters would say "But I DO have program experience" that was by your choice, but wouldn't necessarily apply to all PB skaters; such a level of mastery would need to be part of the test structure as well.
I see your point here and can agree with changing the Pre-bronze free skating test, but I highly doubt anyone would go to Adult Nationals without already having done some other competitions and having worked on a program extensively. It doesn't make any sense at all to do as you suggest is possible.

Thanks everyone for the discussion.

Pat

[MusicSkateFan]

But what if I pass silver moves and cant get my silver free? Then I am not able to compete. Just like several skaters I have heard...pass gold moves and dont pass gold free....

And what time allotment would the pre bronzers get? Those of us who worked our @&&*& off and passed bronze MIF and FS get 1:40 I dont think a pre-bronze FS should get the same amount of time when they have not passed the bronze tests. How much can a pre-bronze skater cover in 1:10?

Just another thought..

BTW I am not trying to sound like an "###" I felt it a GREAT accomplishment to get to AN in bassically 18 months of lessons and testing. I think the bar should not be lowered.

[MusicSkateFan]

BTW I am 39 and started at 37....passed bronze free in December right before I turned 39! It can be done! You got to really want it... I do!

[sk8pics]

But what if I pass silver moves and cant get my silver free? Then I am not able to compete. Just like several skaters I have heard...pass gold moves and dont pass gold free....
I don't think that's right, is it? If you pass silver moves but not silver free you can still skate at Bronze as far as I know.

And what time allotment would the pre bronzers get? Those of us who worked our @&&*& off and passed bronze MIF and FS get 1:40 I dont think a pre-bronze FS should get the same amount of time when they have not passed the bronze tests. How much can a pre-bronze skater cover in 1:10?
Right now, the well-balanced program rules for PRe-Bronze programs specify 1:40. Sorry that you feel we haven't earned that amount of time, but that is the rule.

BTW I am not trying to sound like an "###" I felt it a GREAT accomplishment to get to AN in bassically 18 months of lessons and testing. I think the bar should not be lowered.
You're right, that IS a great accomplishment and I would say you are a great exeption. I would guess that very, very few adults would get that far, starting at that age, in that amount of time. I really, really want it, too, but I haven't managed to match your level of achievement.

[FrankR]

I don't think that's right, is it? If you pass silver moves but not silver free you can still skate at Bronze as far as I know.


This is correct. Your moves test status does not determine what freestyle events you can compete. For example, I passed gold moves back in November but I was still elegible to skate at silver this year. It works the same way on the standard track. One of the young girls that skates at the rink on Saturday mornings with me has finished all of her moves-in-the-field tests but just recently passed her novice free. She would compete as a novice lady.

[FrankR]

It wasn't even 4 full days, was it? Didn't the schedule end early?


Yes. In addition, events were only held on the North Pole Rink all of Saturday if I'm not mistaken. If both surfaces were utilized from Wednesday through Saturday there may have been sufficient time to hold Pre-Bronze freestyle events.

[manleywoman]

My understanding from a post that Morry Stillwell posted on FSU was that we had over 600 conmpetitors, not 450. Perhaps only 450 showed up, but I beleive 600 PAID the entry fee. So there's not much of a loss of income there.

Can anyone confirm the # of entries? I'm sure I'll know when we have the next ANs 2007 meeting

[flutzilla1]

I added my signature too! I've always thought that Pre-Bronze belonged at AN and I hope you guys are successful in getting it added. Good luck!

[flo]

Hi,
Many years ago events were eliminated, the figures and the final rounds of interpretive. The reasons given were 1. the event was becomming too large and too difficult to schedule for the required national level judges and the ref and LOC, 2. for the interp, the judges did not want to see "all that non-skating" as they put it.
I would not be in favor of a pre-bronze, but return the final interp rounds. If the national level judges did not want to judge the level of skating in interp, I don't see adding a level below this.

AN is suppose to be a National level event, open or not. I'd rather not see it become the same as a local or regional event.

[Debbie S]

Thank you, WhisperSung! Your post summed up my thoughts perfectly.

BTW I am not trying to sound like an "###" I felt it a GREAT accomplishment to get to AN in bassically 18 months of lessons and testing. I think the bar should not be lowered.The bar to what? The chance to compete, to see great skating, enjoy our sport, meet new friends? We already have those opportunities - all we are asking for is to compete at a national-level event and meet and see adult skaters from across the country. Heck, we can already go to O'dorf.

No one is asking for Pre-Bronze skaters to compete at Bronze, or any other level they haven't qualified for. We're asking for a legitimate, USFSA-recognized skating level to be included in a USFSA competition. I don't see why Bronze skaters (or any other level of skaters) should be objecting on the grounds that they worked harder to pass their tests than the Pre-Bronze skaters did. The Silver or Gold skaters could say the same thing about the Bronze skaters.

Originally, AN was set up for all levels of adult skating (at the time, the lowest level was Bronze). As Jazzpants pointed out, the reason for not adding Pre-Bronze to AN when the level was created was never given (and I've talked to reps on the Adult Skating Committee who don't even know). If the goal is to have an inclusive event, then it seems adding Pre-Bronze is the right thing to do.

MSF, I think it's great that you passed all of those tests in such a short time, but as sk8pics pointed out, it's not the norm, and it often has nothing to do with dedication or wanting it enough or whether it's "supposed to happen". There are many other factors that influence the progress someone makes (money, time, family obligations/emergencies, age, coaching issues) that are often out of the skater's control. I'm not advocating we make exceptions to rules for personal issues or anything like that, but I do want to make the point that just b/c Skater A learned certain skills in a certain amount of time, they shouldn't expect Skater B to do the same thing.

[NoVa Sk8r]

The bar to what? The chance to compete, to see great skating, enjoy our sport, meet new friends? We already have those opportunities - all we are asking for is to compete at a national-level event and meet and see adult skaters from across the country. Heck, we can already go to O'dorf.To be certain, there is no pre-bronze category at O'dorf. You'd have to skate up to bronze level.

[Mrs Redboots]

To be certain, there is no pre-bronze category at O'dorf. You'd have to skate up to bronze level.Which a lot of people did last year, and very nicely they skated, too. Same applies to the Mountain Cup - my Husband is competing at Bronze because that's the lowest free-skate category offered, and nobody gives a hoot that he has no free skating tests and no plans to take any!

As I'm not a member of the USFSA, I can't sign your petition, although I certainly would if I were. But I do have one query - if they are hoping to roll out the NJS system within the next couple of years, where does that leave the pre-Bronze dancers?

At Oberstdorf, the lowest dance category is Bronze because the pre-Bronze dances are not ISU, so there are no "standards" for judging them. At the Mountain Cup, the pre-Bronze and solo dancers (and the Interp and Improv classes) will be judged on the old "relative" system, whereas Bronze up, and free skating (and pairs) will be NJS.

Personally, the sooner the ISU gets its act together and works out what to do for the low-level dances, the better as far as I'm concerned! But I should hate to see pre-Bronze dance dropped from AN because the dances can't be judged under the NJS.

[NoVa Sk8r]

Personally, the sooner the ISU gets its act together and works out what to do for the low-level dances, the better as far as I'm concerned! But I should hate to see pre-Bronze dance dropped from AN because the dances can't be judged under the NJS.The same applies to interp numbers. How would the NJS work for those events?

At least in O'dorf last year, ISU added elements for some begining adult elements, including waltz jump, throw waltz, and pivot spiral.

[sk8er1964]

In the standard track for nationals, there is a threshold. Pre-preliminary, preliminary, and pre-juvenile are not eligible for nationals. The entry level is juvenile. (Junior Nats includes juvenile and intermediate levels, while Senior Nats includes novice, junior, and senior levels.) IMO, I believe the same base level should apply here.

Playing devil's advocate, by this logic you could argue that ONLY gold and masters be allowed to compete, since that's where the "crossovers" to the juvenile free and above occur.

[dcden]

A few random responses and rebuttals:

sk8pics said:
"you have no idea if an older skater, and one who started as an older adult (like over 35) will ever be able to pass the Bronze tests...Should that person be denied the opportunity to compete at Adult Nationals forever?"
Well, consider this, where do you draw the line? It's too bad that some people will not ever pass the Bronze test, but the rules should not be changed for these cases... otherwise, why even have rules or standards? For me, I may never land a double Lutz in my life, but that doesn't mean the Senior FS test requirements should be changed to accommodate me. It's a sad but true fact of sport because everyone has that one skill that's just out of their reach, but this should not be a motivating reason to change the rules.

Re the number of starts at AN 06:
Keep in mind, Dallas was probably an anomaly. I would wait and see how the numbers are in Chicago before proclaiming that there is enough room in the schedule for new events to be added. I know that there are a lot of skaters in my club who purposely skipped Dallas 06 and are waiting for Chicago 07, and perhaps skaters in other clubs are doing the same. However, if the number of starts at Chicago 07 continues to be low, then we can talk. Again, I think the numbers issue is the strongest argument the PB's have going for them right now, and I have no rebuttal against that.

jazzpants comments on the 1997 rule change (petition #1):
Okay, so then we don't really know why the rules were changed in 1997, fair enough. I think it would be helpful to find out though. However, re Flo's comments about eliminating interp final rounds is quite telling.

jazzpants comments re MIF tests (petition #2):
First, I do NOT believe that silver skaters should compete in gold, or gold skaters in masters; levels are levels and some lines have to be drawn somewhere. I was only using that to make a point why I don't believe that having to pass moves tests now means that one's test level should affect one's competition eligibility any differently today than before MIF were implemented.

jazzpants comments re MIF tests (petition #3):
Again, I feel this is a non-issue regarding whether to have PB in AN. The well-balanced requirements weren't there at one time, they are now, wonderful, but that's not what seems to be what most people are objecting to.

Changing the pre-bronze test to require a program set to music, and to be scored on a numeric rather than pass/retry system:
Since the argument was made that Pre-Bronze has added moves and well-balanced program requirements, why not also change the PB test to require a program??? I mean, what is the opposition to this? Since the battle cry has so far been "We've changed our level to do all the things that skaters Bronze and up do", why not then change the test as well?

My point is: I would strongly oppose having PB skaters not have to do a program to music to get their test credentials, but then be allowed to do so at Adult Nationals. Everyone else has had to show this mastery before being given the test level (and thus entry into AN). It would seem unfair not to require PB skaters to do this as well. And while I think the argument to use AN as a learning experience for program run throughs was meant tongue-in-cheek, I could just turn it around and say "Why don't you just pass Bronze FS? Now THAT would be a learning experience, wouldn't it?" ;) , indeed.

Also:
"While it may be true about Pre-Bronze tests requiring only a pass/retry and that our FS test does not require music, when you are talking about competing at the Pre-Bronze level, you have to compete according to #3. There's an expectation that people have to do a program...just like everyone else."
Well, that's you and Terri C and Debbie S, but not all the PB skaters, which is my point. What's to prevent someone from passing their PB free on 12/31/2006 and then showing up to AN 07 without any program experience? While I know you have competed programs in the past, it would be extremely difficult to distinguish which PB skaters have or have not also done programs in competitions. As I said, skaters like you and Terri C have done this, but not everyone who has their PB free test certificate has. That's why I think that checkpoint should be done during the test where it belongs, not during the competition entry process.

[sk8pics]

A few random responses and rebuttals:
Well, consider this, where do you draw the line? It's too bad that some people will not ever pass the Bronze test, but the rules should not be changed for these cases... otherwise, why even have rules or standards? For me, I may never land a double Lutz in my life, but that doesn't mean the Senior FS test requirements should be changed to accommodate me.
True, but if you can't skate at the senior level you have other options and opportunities to compete nationally.

Re the number of starts at AN 06:
Keep in mind, Dallas was probably an anomaly.
I thought, from conversations last year, that attendance numbers seemed to be on a downward trend, so if that is true, then Dallas was not an anomaly. I recall arguments in favor of including 21 - 24 year olds related to declining numbers at AN.


Since the argument was made that Pre-Bronze has added moves and well-balanced program requirements, why not also change the PB test to require a program??? I mean, what is the opposition to this? Since the battle cry has so far been "We've changed our level to do all the things that skaters Bronze and up do", why not then change the test as well?

That can always be done if it makes sense to enough people, and I see it as a related issue, but not central to the point. I have not heard anyone ever say they were opposed to having a program required for the pre-bronze fs test.

My point is: I would strongly oppose having PB skaters not have to do a program to music to get their test credentials, but then be allowed to do so at Adult Nationals. Everyone else has had to show this mastery before being given the test level (and thus entry into AN).
Tests allow you to compete at the appropriate level and to take the next level of test. And competition levels have been becoming higher than what is required at the test level. For example, there is no axel required on the silver test, but it seems more and more silver skaters are doing axels in competition and it is becoming more necessary to win at silver. So, in a way, this is the same idea: doing more in competition than you had to do for your test. But, does this mean if the test requirement were changed you would not be opposed to pre-bronze skaters at AN?


Well, that's you and Terri C and Debbie S, but not all the PB skaters, which is my point. What's to prevent someone from passing their PB free on 12/31/2006 and then showing up to AN 07 without any program experience?

What's to prevent a Bronze skater from doing the same thing? Okay, they'd have one program experience, their test, but that's it.

Thank you for all your comments.

[dcden]

To sk8pics:
I would tend to not want to use Dallas as an example since so many things were different about Dallas this year, not the least of which was the scheduling snafu which may have accounted for a lot of people signing up for events but then having to withdraw. For that reason alone, I'd be more inclined to see what happens in Chicago before changing any rules.

I think changing the PB test is most certainly central to the point. I think it is a HUGE difference to do elements individually vs. doing them in a program, and it's one that should not be underestimated. It's no secret that the PB test is known as an encouragement test (as is the Pre-Preliminary tests in standard track), so if the argument is for PB to be eligible for a National competition, then I don't think the PB test could then continue to be just an encouragement test. Granted, your point about skaters doing more in competition than on a test is valid, but this is not just about adding an extra jump for a competition, this is having a whole entire program to begin with.

Of course, we already know we have some PB skaters who have had extensive program experience, as well as some Bronze skaters who may only have done the one program for their test. But how else are you going to determine who goes into what track? There'd be no reasonable way to establish rules and hire volunteers to say "OK, Sally Smith only passed PB, but she competed in Peach Classic in a freestyle event so she's in, Fred Jones has his Bronze FS but when has he ever done another competition, hmm..." So the determination would have be done the way it is now: via test levels. Seems harsh for the PB skater who has every experience except for a pass on the Bronze free test, but using test credentials (in whatever form they happen to be) seems to be the only way to determine competition eligibility that is fair to everyone.

If the test requirement were changed as such, I would be a lot less opposed to pre-bronze skaters at AN. But again, the numbers issue would still have to be researched, and a viable schedule template would have to be put together to accommodate PB skaters which does not also cause the headaches we experienced in Dallas.

[lovepairs]

Can someone please explain to me why there is a pre-bronze dance, but not a pre-bronze pairs? Is there anyone out there that has anything against synchronized side-by-side bunny hops? I would love to see a pre-bonze pair catagory added--this would certainly encourage more skaters to try pairs, and would help feed the Bronze level, which seems to be lower in numbers, since the new Bronze, Silver, Gold structure started last year for Pairs at AN. It's interesting but Pairs Silver and Pairs Gold seems to be really healthy, but there seems to be a deficite at either end; meaning the Bronze Pairs and Master Pairs. Pairsman2 and I are testing Intermediate Pairs May 18th to try to move from Gold to Masters Pairs with this in mind--wish us luck! If there were a pre-bronze pairs, maybe it would help move this whole thing along. In other words, grow it from the ground up!

[flo]

Actually the numbers of pair teams has increased significantly. When I competed in adult pairs there were 8 adult and 1 master teams at the first AN. When I was in Master's there were 8 of us and around the same number of adult pairs. It's not unexpected that the majority are in gold and silver. When the requirements changed and the new levels designed, most existing pairs fell into the silver and gold level. The masters is low because the master teams attending are highly variable from year to year, and also many who were in the master group now fall into the gold group.
I would definitely not want to have a pre-bronze pair event. It was very difficult and took a great deal of work and compromise to get the levels we currently have. The USFSA was very hesitant about having any pairs events at all, primarily because of safety. The level of skating required for pairs, whatever the elements, for safety alone is above pre-bronze.

[dcden]

Pairs is not at all a discipline to take lightly. I played around with some lifts with Marty Lieberman at the AN closing party and gained a new appreciation for what pairs folks do. It's MUCH harder than it looks!!! Props to you pairs!

[NoVa Sk8r]

I would definitely not want to have a pre-bronze pair event. It was very difficult and took a great deal of work and compromise to get the levels we currently have. The USFSA was very hesitant about having any pairs events at all, primarily because of safety. The level of skating required for pairs, whatever the elements, for safety alone is above pre-bronze.Yes, and to compete in pairs, you do not have to take any pairs tests. Your singles freestyle level alone can be used to determine what pairs level to compete in.

[jazzpants]

To be certain, there is no pre-bronze category at O'dorf. You'd have to skate up to bronze level.Yes, but at least we are ALLOWED to skate up! The rules of both USFSA Sectionals and Nationals does NOT allow that. (I wouldn't have a problem with this if Adult Nationals did allow skaters to skate up a level. In that case, I would just skate up a level. But they currently don't currently.)

[pairman2]

Prebronze pairs is a viable concept
Synchronization, for example, is just as much an element as an overhead lift.
Pairs IS NOT all about danger.
Safety is something that can and should be built into all levels and skating disciplines!

[NoVa Sk8r]

Yes, but at least we are ALLOWED to skate up! The rules of both USFSA Sectionals and Nationals does NOT allow that. (I wouldn't have a problem with this if Adult Nationals did allow skaters to skate up a level. In that case, I would just skate up a level. But they currently don't currently.)Well, there's not really a de jure "skating up" clause. You just put down what level you want to compete in. In a de facto sense, I think that I could just have easily marked "Masters Free Skating." (Of course, I wouldn't place well.) I don't think they even check. :??

[lovepairs]

Nova, you are right. You don't have to take any Pairs tests to compete in pairs, but you do have to pass Dance tests to compete in dance. Am I missing something here?

Okay, there is pre-bronze dance, but not pre-bronze pairs competition.
Then you don't have to pass any Pairs test to compete in Pairs, but you do have to take Dance test to compete in dance. Is something wrong with this picture?

So, a dancer of the correct freestyle level, never having had a pairs lesson or test, is allowed to grab a partner sign up and compete in pairs. But, me, who actually knows how to do the Changa Langa Canga, or whatever it is, can't just grab a dancing guy and compete in dance???

[flo]

Hi NoVa. When we were redesigning the pair structure, there were committee members who wanted the pair competition requirement to be based on pair tests alone. However this would have eliminated many teams, so the thought was to phase this in later.

Pairs is a diferent animal from single skating. It may not be all about danger, but from the USFSA and judges view it is all about safety. Safety IS built into the pair levels, hence the limitations and requirements. I've been to enough pair events to see some really scary things on all levels even with the current limitations on skills. With all the restrictions adults have on time, I would rather see it spent on attaining bronze skills and developing basic skating skills and experience first, then pairs. I'm not interested in seeing an increase in numbers, just for the sake of increasing numbers.

[LoopLoop]

Nova, you are right. You don't have to take any Pairs tests to compete in pairs, but you do have to pass Dance tests to compete in dance. Am I missing something here?

Okay, there is pre-bronze dance, but not pre-bronze pairs competition.
Then you don't have to pass any Pairs test to compete in Pairs, but you do have to take Dance test to compete in dance. Is something wrong with this picture?

So, a dancer of the correct freestyle level, never having had a pairs lesson or test, is allowed to grab a partner sign up and compete in pairs. But, me, who actually knows how to do the Changa Langa Canga, or whatever it is, can't just grab a dancing guy and compete in dance???
Lovepairs, there IS pre-bronze dance at nationals, but that is actually the second level of dance. The first set of dances is called preliminary, I believe (someone who actually dances please correct me if I'm wrong), but there is no preliminary dance event at AN.

[sk8pics]

I think it is a HUGE difference to do elements individually vs. doing them in a program, and it's one that should not be underestimated. It's no secret that the PB test is known as an encouragement test (as is the Pre-Preliminary tests in standard track), so if the argument is for PB to be eligible for a National competition, then I don't think the PB test could then continue to be just an encouragement test. Granted, your point about skaters doing more in competition than on a test is valid, but this is not just about adding an extra jump for a competition, this is having a whole entire program to begin with.
...
If the test requirement were changed as such, I would be a lot less opposed to pre-bronze skaters at AN. But again, the numbers issue would still have to be researched, and a viable schedule template would have to be put together to accommodate PB skaters which does not also cause the headaches we experienced in Dallas.

Totally agree with you that a program is totally different from doing elements in isolation. And like I (think) I said before, I'm not at all opposed to changing the pre-bronze FS test requirements. Maybe that's what will happen... we'll have to wait and see.

Thanks again for your input.

Edited to add, I don't know the actual cuase of the scheduling headaches in Dallas, so I don't know if adding an additional free skating level would contribute to more of the same, but we shall see...

[crayonskater]

I think dcden & NoVa have made a lot of interesting points.

I've only been taking lessons for a year, and while I'm not planning on testing, my moves are passing standard for pre-bronze (according to my coach). Just at that level, there's not a whole lot of required freestyle moves.

I realize a great program could be created with just a waltz jump, crossovers, and a basic scratch spin that might be entertaining, but I doubt most of you pre-Bronzers would only be doing waltz jumps and crossovers. You'd be doing essentially Bronze programs without the MiTF test passed.

That seems a little weird. If it's a true pre-Bronze level, and we want it to be true to the test, it should be just that, and not a Bronze program minus tests. And I can't think of comparable restrictions (no flips or lutzes, no combo spins) like the 'no doubles' rule in Silver that wouldn't just lead to dull skating.

I think, on balance, I'd rather see Interp restricted to non-gimmicky, classic programs, and use that as an outlet for pre-Bronzers. Or allow people to skate up.

[flo]

Hi Crayon - Interp use to be no test. It was also all levels combined, which meant that a no test would compete with a returning any level skater. When the final rounds were removed, primarily because of the judges complaining about all the non-skating gimmicky programs one of the suggestions was to limit interpretive to silver and above. The silver and gold skaters would be in adult interpretive, and the master level skaters would be in master interpretive. This would allow the adult skaters who started as adults to not compete against former kid master skaters. The final rounds would also be kept, which I preferred. I've medaled in both, and the ones from final rounds events are pretty special, as you really do get to compete with the best across the board. I think many of the interp events are costume contests and could be held in the lobby.

[crayonskater]

Why not have a pre-Bronze/Bronze only interp? Restricting gimmicks would keep the judges happy, and give the pre-Bronzers a chance to compete.

[flo]

Good compromise.

[jazzpants]

A few random responses and rebuttals:

sk8pics said:
"you have no idea if an older skater, and one who started as an older adult (like over 35) will ever be able to pass the Bronze tests...Should that person be denied the opportunity to compete at Adult Nationals forever?"

Then dcden replies:
Well, consider this, where do you draw the line? It's too bad that some people will not ever pass the Bronze test, but the rules should not be changed for these cases... otherwise, why even have rules or standards? For me, I may never land a double Lutz in my life, but that doesn't mean the Senior FS test requirements should be changed to accommodate me. It's a sad but true fact of sport because everyone has that one skill that's just out of their reach, but this should not be a motivating reason to change the rules.There's a BIG difference between not being allowed to skate at a certain level at Adult Nationals and not being allowed to compete at Adult Nationals at all!!!

Re the number of starts at AN 06:
Keep in mind, Dallas was probably an anomaly. I would wait and see how the numbers are in Chicago before proclaiming that there is enough room in the schedule for new events to be added. I know that there are a lot of skaters in my club who purposely skipped Dallas 06 and are waiting for Chicago 07, and perhaps skaters in other clubs are doing the same. However, if the number of starts at Chicago 07 continues to be low, then we can talk. Again, I think the numbers issue is the strongest argument the PB's have going for them right now, and I have no rebuttal against that.Actually, the lower numbers has not be an anomalty. It's been on a downward trend since 2002. The Adult Committee has being trying to address that downward trend and tried to bring that number up.

Changing the pre-bronze test to require a program set to music, and to be scored on a numeric rather than pass/retry system:
Since the argument was made that Pre-Bronze has added moves and well-balanced program requirements, why not also change the PB test to require a program??? I mean, what is the opposition to this? Since the battle cry has so far been "We've changed our level to do all the things that skaters Bronze and up do", why not then change the test as well?I have no opposition to changing the Pre-Bronze test to include a program. I don't know though if Pre-Bronze can be changed to be judged from a pass/retry level to a numerical system, though, since there's seems for all tracks that it requires an encouragement tests.

I just don't want to screw someone of an oppty to compete at the Nationals level b/c of a bad back or knee that prevents them from passing a test. It's like that catch 22, I mentioned above... and you guys know very well how long I've been working on that Bronze Moves test and how many times I've tested that same Bronze moves test. It is NOT an easy test to pass for me!I'm really doubtful that I can pass this test this year too, given my last lesson with the secondary coach. (We're disassembling and putting back my forward power 3's for the umpteeth time to compensate for my lack of hip flexor flexibility that I've been working on for ages.) As for the Bronze FS test. I don't know what judges consider a recognizable sit spin. I think I have one (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jazzpants/118006194/), but a tough judge might think otherwise.

"While it may be true about Pre-Bronze tests requiring only a pass/retry and that our FS test does not require music, when you are talking about competing at the Pre-Bronze level, you have to compete according to #3. There's an expectation that people have to do a program...just like everyone else."Well, that's you and Terri C and Debbie S, but not all the PB skaters, which is my point. What's to prevent someone from passing their PB free on 12/31/2006 and then showing up to AN 07 without any program experience? While I know you have competed programs in the past, it would be extremely difficult to distinguish which PB skaters have or have not also done programs in competitions. As I said, skaters like you and Terri C have done this, but not everyone who has their PB free test certificate has. That's why I think that checkpoint should be done during the test where it belongs, not during the competition entry process.First thing: I would very much doubt the skaters who have never skated a program in their lives would just up and go and compete at the Nationals level. Most skaters I know usually would want to get the experience at local comps FIRST before investing all that vacation time and money to buy airfares/hotel rooms/coach's fee/etc. to go and compete. Sure, it doesn't mean that they can't just go and fly out to AN and compete, but a question arise, what's the big deal? If they're competing, they are doing a program. Give those skaters a chance to show their stuff!!! (BTW: I also could tell 'ya that doing a program for a test is MUCH HARDER than doing a program for a competition.)

And as sk8pics aptly puts it... what's to prevent a BRONZE level skater from doing the same. (This sorta reminds me of the 'ol catch 22 of looking for a job where "to get a job you have to have experience, but how do you get experience if you can't get a job?")

Given that, I personally would have no problems with Pre-Bronze FS doing a program. I don't see a reason why not? But if someone goes and changes the rules so that PreBronze FS does do a program, would you sign the petition? Or would you then say "Well, Pre-Bronze is an encouragement test, etc."

If the test requirement were changed as such, I would be a lot less opposed to pre-bronze skaters at AN. But again, the numbers issue would still have to be researched, and a viable schedule template would have to be put together to accommodate PB skaters which does not also cause the headaches we experienced in Dallas.Ummm... the scheduling headaches is definitely NOT b/c there's too many events... My understanding WAS that it came from someone who does not have experience planning Adult Nationals events and is planning the schedule as if it was a standard track event. But we won't go there... :roll:

[flying~camel]

And I can't think of comparable restrictions (no flips or lutzes, no combo spins) like the 'no doubles' rule in Silver that wouldn't just lead to dull skating.

Most of the competition announcements I've seen lately say that Pre-Bronze skaters are not allowed to do lutzes or flying spins.

[crayonskater]

Are the Bronzers generally doing lutzes, i.e., a competitive Bronze level program must include a lutz?

My worry is that the distinction between the two levels will generally collapse. There's a good distinction between silver and bronze: the Axel, a classic gateway. Between silver and gold: doubles.

Is the lutz that kind of jump? I have a fledging one (rotated, landed one foot, looks like hell), and I'm only pre-Bronze if you ignore my lack of testing. Because if a winning Pre-Bronze program and a winning Bronze program have exactly the same elements, it's not going to be good, and would probably just kill the Bronze level.

I just wouldn't want pre-Bronze to be a sandbag level, that's all.

[Debbie S]

That seems a little weird. If it's a true pre-Bronze level, and we want it to be true to the test, it should be just that, and not a Bronze program minus tests. And I can't think of comparable restrictions (no flips or lutzes, no combo spins) like the 'no doubles' rule in Silver that wouldn't just lead to dull skating.Crayonskater, in USFSA comps, there really is no such thing as a freestyle comp being "true to the test". At every competitive level (yes, even Pre-Bronze) the elements needed to be competitive are much harder than the test level. Granted, adult comp programs are closer to test content than the standard track comp programs, but there is still a gap.

At my Pre-Bronze FS event at NYI, the winner did a flip, a flip-toe combo, a camel spin for 3 revs (yes, the leg was at hip level the entire time), a loop, a sal, a sit spin, and a backspin, plus spirals and connecting steps. The 2nd place finisher did a loop-loop combo. I did a Bronze test program, completed all elements except the backspin (only 2 revs with a 2-footed exit), and finished 4th out of 4. I don't think anyone who watched the event would say that it was "dull" or "non-skating". Sure, we weren't as polished as some of the Bronze skaters at our age level, but you see the same gap between Bronze and Silver, or Silver and Gold. A Bronze skater's lutz jump looks different than a Gold skater's.

At the Bronze level, even though the test only requires a loop as the hardest jump, to be competitive, you need to have all your singles through lutz, and most top Bronze skaters do combo spins with changes of foot and position.

Actually, there are restrictions in Pre-Bronze. You can not do lutzes or flying spins. I think programs can still be interesting without those elements.

[sk8pics]

My worry is that the distinction between the two levels will generally collapse. There's a good distinction between silver and bronze: the Axel, a classic gateway. Between silver and gold: doubles.
...
I just wouldn't want pre-Bronze to be a sandbag level, that's all.

Well, an axel is not even on the silver test. So again, actual competition elements are higher than test standards. (I only mention that because earlier you had mentioned wanting the levels to be true to the test.)

I think sandbagging could be an issue at any level, but I do see your point above. I'm sure you could find examples that look like sandbagging at all levels, while the true story behind each particular skater could be different.

Thanks again for all the discussion!

[crayonskater]

Crayonskater, in USFSA comps, there really is no such thing as a freestyle comp being "true to the test". At every competitive level (yes, even Pre-Bronze) the elements needed to be competitive are much harder than the test level. Granted, adult comp programs are closer to test content than the standard track comp programs, but there is still a gap.


I realize this, but I should have been more clear. I can read the 'allowed' elements and judge what I need to be competitive.

And if I see 'no doubles' or 'no axel' as the restriction, I can guess that anything lower is fair game. Likewise with 'no triples' or 'not more than two triples.'

And it just seems that doubles/triples/axel are a good natural barrier, and I'm not sure lutz is. Not too many people get axels before their loops.

I shouldn't have used sandbag, because it's a loaded term. But look, if Bronze and pre-Bronze have nearly identical elements, what's the point of bothering to compete at Bronze? I could go to Nationals one year as a Pre-Bronze (and because I don't want to just do the test standard, I have all my singles), and then after passing Bronze, figure 'I did that already', take the year & expenses off, and move up to Silver when I'm ready.

If there's a good case that a lutz or a flying spin is a good gateway between pre-Bronze and Bronze, then I really have no objection. But if I could win Bronze without a lutz (by doing combos), then I worry there's not much of a difference between the two.

Just my $0.02. I hope there's at least a skate-up option for the pre-Bronzers, as there seems to be interest.

[skaternum]

Sorry, ladies, but I won't be signing the petition. I agree with many of the reasons already given for opposing Pre-Bronze at AN, but my primary reason is really about not wanting to see an event treated as a "Nationals" event include the very lowest skill level. Yes, Nationals started out that way, but I didn't think it was appropriate then. I prefer to see AN mimic the philosophy used for standard track, which most definitely doesn't include pre-preliminary. This model already exists with dance at Adult Nationals, and I think it's reasonable to continue to follow it for freestyle. It's just a personal, philosophical preference, so all the arguing and disputing in the world isn't going to change my opinion.

For those who want to compete at a National event which includes the lowest level of freeskating, there is ISI Nationals, which does include events at the lowest level. I also recommend ISI to those who want to see competition elements more closely match test elements, as ISI includes restricted events for just this purpose.

[rlichtefeld]

Most of the competition announcements I've seen lately say that Pre-Bronze skaters are not allowed to do lutzes or flying spins.

This what we have in the Peach Classic announcement from last year, and I don't think it will be changing for this year:

--------------
SINGLES FREESKATING EVENTS:

Event Requirements Max Time
Masters Intermediate Free Skating Test 4:10
or the 3rd Figure Test prior to October 1, 1977
or the Adult Gold Free Skating Test.

Gold
Adult Silver or Adult Gold Free Skating Test 2:40
and no higher than the Juvenile Free Skating Test
or ISI Freestyle 6, or the 2nd Figure Test
prior to October 1, 1977

Silver
Adult Bronze or Adult Silver Free Skating Test 2:10
and no higher than the Juvenile Free Skating Test
or the ISI Freestyle 5, or the 2nd Figure Test
prior to October 1, 1977.

Axels are permitted, however no double jumps
are allowed.

Bronze
Pre-Bronze or Adult Bronze Free Skating Test 1:40
and no higher than the Preliminary Free Skating Test.
and/or ISI Freestyle 4 Test, or the Preliminary
Figure Test prior to October 1, 1977

No Axels or double jumps are allowed.

Pre-Bronze
Adult Pre-Bronze Free Skating Test 1:40
and no higher than Pre-Preliminary
Free Skating Test or ISI Freestyle 3.

No Lutz, Axel or double jumps are allowed.
No flying spins.

No-Test *
Not have passed any U.S. Figure Skating tests, 1:40
and no higher than the ISI Freestyle 2.

Only half jumps, Salchow, and Toe-Loop jumps
are allowed.

* U.S. Figure Skating Basic Skills Membership can be used for events marked with an asterisk. Skater must provide a copy of their card, or be a full member of a U.S. Figure Skating club.

Notes:
All times for Adult events are maximum times. No deductions for programs that are shorter in length.

See US Figure Skating rules 3730-3803 for descriptions of Adult Free Skating Well Balanced Programs.
----------------

And, yes people were doing Lutz's in Pre-Bronze before we put in the restriction. Some were even doing Lutz combinations. Some people can jump but can't spin.

Rob

[jazzpants]

Are the Bronzers generally doing lutzes, i.e., a competitive Bronze level program must include a lutz?

My worry is that the distinction between the two levels will generally collapse. There's a good distinction between silver and bronze: the Axel, a classic gateway. Between silver and gold: doubles. Pre-Bronze skaters are NOT allowed to do lutzes or flying spins as of this year b/c of the well balanced program restriction for this year. Before that, everyone were either doing lutzes or attempting it. (I got majorly clobbered at my first comp at Pre-Bronze b/c my competitor did attempt a lutz and I barely did a loop.) But Bronzers currently not only have to have a lutz to compete competitively, they have lutz-loop combinations. And there are no spin combination restrictions other than that you have to complete at least 3 rev.

Is the lutz that kind of jump? I have a fledging one (rotated, landed one foot, looks like hell), and I'm only pre-Bronze if you ignore my lack of testing. Because if a winning Pre-Bronze program and a winning Bronze program have exactly the same elements, it's not going to be good, and would probably just kill the Bronze level.

I just wouldn't want pre-Bronze to be a sandbag level, that's all.It's already a sandbag event b/c you can sandbag heavily on the spins. (There are no restrictions for spin combos other than that you can't do a flying spin.) Pre-Bronze is already starting to look like Bronze but w/o the lutz and the flying spins.

[LoopLoop]

I shouldn't have used sandbag, because it's a loaded term. But look, if Bronze and pre-Bronze have nearly identical elements, what's the point of bothering to compete at Bronze? I could go to Nationals one year as a Pre-Bronze (and because I don't want to just do the test standard, I have all my singles), and then after passing Bronze, figure 'I did that already', take the year & expenses off, and move up to Silver when I'm ready.

If there's a good case that a lutz or a flying spin is a good gateway between pre-Bronze and Bronze, then I really have no objection. But if I could win Bronze without a lutz (by doing combos), then I worry there's not much of a difference between the two.
It's not the jumps that make the difference between most of the bronze and silver programs at nationals, at least in the lower (1-3) age groups. At least 90% of the bronze skaters have lutzes, and pretty much all of the silvers. At least the top half of the bronzes do lutz combinations. Does that mean that there's no difference between bronze and silver? No. In general, silvers have stronger spins than bronzes. And axels? Clean ones are pretty rare in general. There are a lot of cheated axels, a lot of two-footed axels, a lot of falls on axels; more clean axels appear in class 1-2 than in 3-4. It's tough to WIN the final round without an axel but not unheard of, but it's common to medal without one.

But the biggest difference between a typical bronze and a typical silver is in the SKATING. The speed, edge quality, flow over the ice, etc. Yes, there are exceptions; the top few bronze skaters may be equal or better than many of the silver skaters in this regard.

The same type of differences between pre-bronze and bronze are apparent at local competitions.

[dcden]

First thing: I would very much doubt the skaters who have never skated a program in their lives would just up and go and compete at the Nationals level. Most skaters I know usually would want to get the experience at local comps FIRST ... Sure, it doesn't mean that they can't just go and fly out to AN and compete, but ... If they're competing, they are doing a program.


I don't know if I agree. I've met a few folks in skating who do indeed think that after getting a jump or two that competing at AN would be a piece of cake, even though they've never done a program in their lives. That is why I would rather see Nationals restricted to competitors who have been certified to be program ready (i.e. have tested as such) than allow competitors who are just "doing" a program. Again, the only fair way to do this is to make it part of the test structure.


(BTW: I also could tell 'ya that doing a program for a test is MUCH HARDER than doing a program for a competition.)

Again, this comment seems to work more against you guys than for it. Are you conceding something about the test that makes it a different animal than, say, competing at NYI or Peach? It sounds like you're saying "The test is too hard, so let's ignore the test."


Given that, I personally would have no problems with Pre-Bronze FS doing a program. I don't see a reason why not? But if someone goes and changes the rules so that PreBronze FS does do a program, would you sign the petition? Or would you then say "Well, Pre-Bronze is an encouragement test, etc."

I can't make any promises... I would have to see the wording of the petition with this change. And anyway the petition when I last checked is still in its original form, so I cannot in all good conscience sign it now.


Ummm... the scheduling headaches is definitely NOT b/c there's too many events... My understanding WAS that it came from someone who does not have experience planning Adult Nationals events and is planning the schedule as if it was a standard track event.


Right, but my point is that someone would have to come up with a proposed revision to the schedule template, preferably now rather than after close of entries. I brought up Dallas because if we experienced the headaches we did WITHOUT PB in the mix, imagine what it would be WITH PB in the mix. My point is that this would have to be thought through first, because I don't want to go through the scheduling snafu again. Again, we'd have to have an idea of how many PB'ers would realistically be added to the mix.

[dcden]

For those who want to compete at a National event which includes the lowest level of freeskating, there is ISI Nationals, which does include events at the lowest level. I also recommend ISI to those who want to see competition elements more closely match test elements, as ISI includes restricted events for just this purpose.
Interesting point. Pre-Bronzers, what are your thoughts regarding this?

[sk8pics]

Interesting point. Pre-Bronzers, what are your thoughts regarding this?

Well, since you asked, it sounds to me like, "If you don't like it, go skate somewhere else." I know skaternum and I don't think she meant it to come out like that, but that's how it sounded to me. It's the part that says, "For those who want to compete at a National event which includes the lowest level of freeskating,..."

And btw, dcden, I don't think the petition should be changed at this point, since people have signed it the way it is. It wouldn't be ethical to change it after the fact.

[dcden]

And btw, dcden, I don't think the petition should be changed at this point, since people have signed it the way it is. It wouldn't be ethical to change it after the fact.
Very true, I did not consider that, so thanks for pointing that out.

I must then respectfully decline to sign the petition but encourage a continued dialogue/discussion as to what is the best solution for all.

[lovepairs]

Pre-Bronze Rocks! They are the future, they should be invited! :P

[LoopLoop]

Prebronze pairs is a viable concept
Synchronization, for example, is just as much an element as an overhead lift.
Pairs IS NOT all about danger.
Safety is something that can and should be built into all levels and skating disciplines!
To add one thing here, yes, synchronization is extremely important in pairs, as much for safety as anything else! Being able to achieve it takes a certain amount of control over one's skating; controlling the trajectory in and out of jumps, centering of spins, edge control in spirals, etc. And most pre-bronze level skaters don't have as much control over their skating as bronze skaters (who were allowed to compete in pairs for the first time last year), so perhaps that's the safety reason for not having a pre-bronze pair event?

[flo]

Loops - exactly....

[skaternum]

Well, since you asked, it sounds to me like, "If you don't like it, go skate somewhere else." I know skaternum and I don't think she meant it to come out like that, but that's how it sounded to me. It's the part that says, "For those who want to compete at a National event which includes the lowest level of freeskating,..."
My premise is that a minimum test standard of Bronze should be maintained at at USFSA's Adult Nationals. No apologies for that sentiment. That's my opinion and has nothing to do with the individuals at Pre-bronze who hold the opposite opinion. Given the premise of my argument, I am quite literally merely suggesting an alternative for those who do not meet what in MY OPINION should be the minimum standard. Without trying to get into the worn out "ISI vs. USFSA" discussion again, it's an arguably-accepted truism that ISI is more "recreational" (with lower standards for testing) while USFSA is more "competitive" (with higher standards for testing). Even in the adult tracks. So in a sense, yes I am saying, "If you don't like it, go skate somewhere else if you want to compete in a National-level event." But not with the evil overtones that some might try to read into it. (I'm not saying you were reading evil overtones, sk8pics. Just clarifying for others who do but didn't post yet!)

[FrankR]

My premise is that a minimum test standard of Bronze should be maintained at at USFSA's Adult Nationals. No apologies for that sentiment. That's my opinion and has nothing to do with the individuals at Pre-bronze who hold the opposite opinion. Given the premise of my argument, I am quite literally merely suggesting an alternative for those who do not meet what in MY OPINION should be the minimum standard. Without trying to get into the worn out "ISI vs. USFSA" discussion again, it's an arguably-accepted truism that ISI is more "recreational" (with lower standards for testing) while USFSA is more "competitive" (with higher standards for testing). Even in the adult tracks. So in a sense, yes I am saying, "If you don't like it, go skate somewhere else if you want to compete in a National-level event." But not with the evil overtones that some might try to read into it. (I'm not saying you were reading evil overtones, sk8pics. Just clarifying for others who do but didn't post yet!)

Hey skaternum,

Well I didn't read in any evil overtones into your post and totally respect your opinion. I just had to confess that I chuckled a bit when I realized you were executing a pre-emptive strike. :lol: I so enjoy reading your posts. :)

Frank

[coskater64]

I do think it should be noted that Pre-Bronze dance is the second level of dance. If I am not mistaken Pre - bronze dancers had to pass 6 dance tests in order to compete at the level, that's a lot of tests...

Given a choice of solo dance (all levels pb-g) or pre-bronze FS added to AN's I would rather see solo dance, just thought I'd toss that into the fire.:twisted:

[Terri C]

Interesting point. Pre-Bronzers, what are your thoughts regarding this?

I've been sneaking in to read comments throughout the day and what I have to say is this.
I find it very sad that I hear all this ballyhoo about how the adult skating community is supposed to be so supportive, yet the comments I've read today come across as nothing short as elitist and snobbish!
What's even sadder is that most of these comments are coming from some of my online skating friends! :cry:

[NoVa Sk8r]

I find it very sad that I hear all this ballyhoo about how the adult skating community is supposed to be so supportive, yet the comments I've read today come across as nothing short as elitist and snobbish!We're supportive in your taking the bronze moves and FS tests! 8-)


What's even sadder is that most of these comments are coming from some of my online skating friends! :cry:"Hate the sin, love the sinner." ... :P

[dcden]

I find it very sad that I hear all this ballyhoo about how the adult skating community is supposed to be so supportive, yet the comments I've read today come across as nothing short as elitist and snobbish!
What's even sadder is that most of these comments are coming from some of my online skating friends! :cry:
Terri this is not an easy or cut-and-dried issue for any of us, and I know you've been an enthusiastic adult skater for some time now. My concern is not whether you have the gusto for AN, it's for the newbies coming into the sport who may not want to go through the process of polishing a program first (as you have) before jumping into AN. For me, I guess I'm approaching this like I would a software development issue (which is probably what I should be doing right now given that it's business hours, but whatever): what are the ramifications of the change? Does this change break something else? What is the cost/benefit analysis? I would not want to change an eligibility rule without also at least looking at the test structure and possible effects on the organization/scheduling of AN. The petition currently does not address these issues.

[daisies]

My premise is that a minimum test standard of Bronze should be maintained at at USFSA's Adult Nationals. No apologies for that sentiment. That's my opinion and has nothing to do with the individuals at Pre-bronze who hold the opposite opinion. Given the premise of my argument, I am quite literally merely suggesting an alternative for those who do not meet what in MY OPINION should be the minimum standard. Without trying to get into the worn out "ISI vs. USFSA" discussion again, it's an arguably-accepted truism that ISI is more "recreational" (with lower standards for testing) while USFSA is more "competitive" (with higher standards for testing). Even in the adult tracks. So in a sense, yes I am saying, "If you don't like it, go skate somewhere else if you want to compete in a National-level event." But not with the evil overtones that some might try to read into it. (I'm not saying you were reading evil overtones, sk8pics. Just clarifying for others who do but didn't post yet!)
FWIW, I totally agree with you.

[skaternum]

I've been sneaking in to read comments throughout the day and what I have to say is this.
I find it very sad that I hear all this ballyhoo about how the adult skating community is supposed to be so supportive, yet the comments I've read today come across as nothing short as elitist and snobbish!
What's even sadder is that most of these comments are coming from some of my online skating friends! :cry:I'm sorry you feel this way, but you have to expect that there will be people who will disagree with you on this. This is the adult skating community's version of the abortion / pro-choice debate. There will simply be differning opinions on this, and we'll only find out who was right when we die and God tells us. :halo:

But I think your calling some of us elitist snobs is a bit much, especially since we've never made any similar comments about your opinion.

[doubletoe]

To those who are arguing that Adult Nationals should mirror standard track nationals by NOT including the lowest level, I'd like to say that sounds a little delusional. Most of us adult skaters are performing far below what you would see from the best Juvenile skaters in the country, so if we were going to shut people out based on skating ability, we should probably take Bronze and Silver out of Adult Nationals, too.

In addition, most of the events at AN are non-qualifying events, which is further proof that the primary focus of Adult Nationals is to be INCLUSIVE rather than exclusive. And honestly, Adult Nationals is not where the USFS goes looking for its Olympic and Worlds team skaters, so there is no need to keep anyone out out of fear of lowering the overall level of competitive skating in the U.S..

The only issue I can see is that there would be less incentive for skaters to pass their Bronze MIF and FS tests, which is the reason given to me when I once asked a committee member why Pre-Bronze was excluded from AN. This clearly does not apply to hardworking skaters like Jazzpants, but there are always a few adult skaters who are either lazy (a minority) or more interested in winning a medal than challenging themselves (also a minority). Then again, people can "sandbag" at any level--such as Bronze skaters who really ought to be competing at Silver--so if this is the only concern, I'd say they should let Pre-Bronze skaters join us at Nationals.

I signed. :)

[dbny]

To those who are arguing that Adult Nationals should mirror standard track nationals by NOT including the lowest level, I'd like to say that sounds a little delusional. Most of us adult skaters are performing far below what you would see from the best Juvenile skaters in the country, so if we were going to shut people out based on skating ability, we should probably take Bronze and Silver out of Adult Nationals, too.

ITA. I don't see why anyone would worry about lowering the level of skating at AN, since that event is for the skaters themselves and not for the world to wonder at their amazing performances (not there might not be some :)).

[FrankR]

ITA. I don't see why anyone would worry about lowering the level of skating at AN, since that event is for the skaters themselves and not for the world to wonder at their amazing performances (not there might not be some :)).

That is my point of view as well and the very reason why I signed as well. Ultimately, there are valid points on either side of the argument so I think the issue needs further consideration by USFS and let them make a call on it.

[Hannahclear]

Hmmm when I first saw this thread at FSU, I was like "why not, of course!". But now that I've read this BIG discussion 8O , I'm finding myself a bit more on the fence.

On one hand, I certainly agree that more entrants makes more money, so that's a good thing. Definitely the strongest argument.

Also, it is adult skating and is supposed to be different. Some adults may treat their skating like two steps below going to Senior Nats, but that doesn't make that true. Which is why I agree with the following quote:

To those who are arguing that Adult Nationals should mirror standard track nationals by NOT including the lowest level, I'd like to say that sounds a little delusional. Most of us adult skaters are performing far below what you would see from the best Juvenile skaters in the country, so if we were going to shut people out based on skating ability, we should probably take Bronze and Silver out of Adult Nationals, too.


I'm not a great skater, and I know it. I will probably be able to compete at Adult Nats next year because I'm pretty sure and have been assured that I stand an excellent chance of passing Bronze Moves. But that doesn't mean I'm a great skater. I've seen the tapes. And I win local events. That doesn't mean I'm all that good. Why should *I* go to Adult Nats, even as a bronze? What makes me worthy, but not prebronze? Because, like I said, there's lots wrong with my skating. I am better than prebronzers, yes I will say that, but it's all kind of relative at this level.

I think requiring prebronzers to do a program if they change the rules could work. Leave their time at 1:40 and give the bronze skaters 1:50. I could really use those ten seconds. Also, they could change the requirements for program elements. For instance, the jumps on the bronze test are ridiculously easy. Maybe require a flip?

[jazzpants]

Interesting point. Pre-Bronzers, what are your thoughts regarding this?Well, I'll mention why I went into USFSA instead of ISI and that might help shed light on why I'm not competing at ISI Nationals.

Well, part of the problem with my going to ISI Nationals is that my skating rink does not encourage skaters to skate ISI after ISI 3 or 4. Seems a lot of the coaches at my rink HATES ISI and often pushes their students into USFSA b/c it's a more gradual and specific learning structure that goes with the track. Why they hate it? Well, you'll have to ask those coaches. :)

But not with the evil overtones that some might try to read into it. (I'm not saying you were reading evil overtones, sk8pics. Just clarifying for others who do but didn't post yet!)Yes, I also find it funny about your pre-emptive strike. I haven't had a chance to read all the post or reply to it b/c I was at WORK and working on BRONZE MOVES with my primary coach!!! :twisted: (Which BTW, is coming out better this month than last month...)

I'll read more tonight and respond then...

[skaternum]

To those who are arguing that Adult Nationals should mirror standard track nationals by NOT including the lowest level, I'd like to say that sounds a little delusional. Most of us adult skaters are performing far below what you would see from the best Juvenile skaters in the country, so if we were going to shut people out based on skating ability, we should probably take Bronze and Silver out of Adult Nationals, too.Good Heavens, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I think we should mirror the model of standard track. I have NEVER even hinted that if you can't skate at a juvenile level, then you suck and shouldn't be at AN. I'm saying that I prefer the model of excluding the lowest level.

Anyway, speaking of inclusiveness, isn't it wonderful that we can all have our opinions?

[beachbabe]

I guess its not really my business to bring myself into this b/c i am not over 21 and therefore not even eligible for the adult nationals, but come on, there is a reason why pre-bronze isn't allowed to compete. I jsut checked the test requirements for it on the USFSA Website

Adult Pre-Bronze Free Skating Test (PBF)
The purpose of this test is to encourage beginning adult skaters to learn the fundamentals of free skating. No great deal of technical ability, carriage or flow is expected. The candidate must show knowledge of the elements, fairly good edges and some evidence of good form. The following required elements are to be skated individually, without music.

Jumps

Two different jumps, either one-half or one full revolution
Spins

A one-foot upright spin (minimum 3 revolutions in position)

A two-foot upright spin (minimum 3 revolutions in position)

Steps

Crossovers - forward and backward (either direction)

Lunge or spiral


I remember back when i started skating abt 2 yrs ago, i had all those elements after about 2 months. It would be ridiculous to allow that level at a national competition. I know the fact that i'm younger (16 specifically) does factor into that, but I can't imagine a learning curve for an adult being x10 longer. Practice and perseverence is much more powerful than any physical barrier. Even bronze level is not even above USFSA basic skills freestyle 2 or 3 maybe.

[Spreadeagle]

Given that, I personally would have no problems with Pre-Bronze FS doing a program. I don't see a reason why not? But if someone goes and changes the rules so that PreBronze FS does do a program, would you sign the petition? Or would you then say "Well, Pre-Bronze is an encouragement test, etc."

But isn't the pre-Bronze test an encouragement test, and that's why it's pass/fail? And that's also why it's elements only, and not a program? If you change the pre-Bronze test to require a program, you might end up with fewer pre-Bronzers because doing a program is too daunting for a pre-Bronze skater.

I have to say that I agree with others who have said that Nationals should not include the lowest level. Yes, AN has a lot of non-qualifying events, but even to skate in those you have to have passed the test level. There's no skating up. It's Nationals! It should be something special that you have to earn the right to compete at! That's my opinion, anyway, and I mean no ill will to pre-Bronzers or anyone else in saying this.

I'm also wondering what is expected from this petition. Do you plan to submit the petition to the Adult and/or Competitions committee? I would think that adding pre-Bronze to Nationals would require a rule change since it's a National competition. It's too late to submit any proposals to this year's Governing Council, which is less than a month away.

Even if a rule change is not required, I am pretty sure that the 2007 host club has already applied for a sanction from USFS for this competition, since sanctions for upcoming Nationals and other qualifying competitions are usually approved at Governing Council. Once the sanction is approved it would be extremely difficult to change.

I guess what I'm saying is that even if there is overwhelming support and no opposition to adding pre-Bronze to Nationals, I can't see how it would happen before 2008 or maybe even 2009 Nationals. By then, the interested parties may well have passed their Bronze tests.

[MusicSkateFan]

Doubletoe: As to your comment on adults being lower than standard track......

But.....Maybe we could be closer to the standard track if they let people do more difficult jumps earlier like the standard track.....Doubles at Silver!!!!!(I had to get that in there!!! 2sal was very close today!)LOL!

[Skittl1321]

I remember back when i started skating abt 2 yrs ago, i had all those elements after about 2 months. It would be ridiculous to allow that level at a national competition. I know the fact that i'm younger (16 specifically) does factor into that, but I can't imagine a learning curve for an adult being x10 longer. Practice and perseverence is much more powerful than any physical barrier. Even bronze level is not even above USFSA basic skills freestyle 2 or 3 maybe.

I think there is a huge difference between starting to skate at 14 and starting as an adult. I am only 25, but I don't expect to test Pre-Bronze for at least a year, possibly even longer because of moves. I am just now starting lessons (I was put in Basic 4 for my first ever class on evaluation by the skate coordinator). Another woman in my class is 38. She has been skating for a year. She goes to the rink for 2 hours every Friday and takes a 30 minute class each Wednesday. She told me it took her 2-6 week sessions to pass Basic 1, another 6-week session for Basic 2, and 3 6-week session for Basic 3. She is starting on her second Basic 4 session now. Granted, she is only making it to the rink twice a week, but when you work full time and have a family to take care of, sometimes thats the best you can do. But the learning curve is very different. She only got through Basic 1 in the amount of time you said it took you to get the Pre-Bronze elements.

I think that Pre-Bronze should be included in adult nationals, because so many of the competitions are non-qualifying anyway. It's not like that at regular nationals is it? You have to qualify- right? But the non-program requirement is a very important point.

I didn't sign the petition because I am not a USFSA member, just a basic skills one, but I hope this is a conversation that USFSA has. There are many good points on both sides of the issue and I hope they are considered.

[Terri C]

But isn't the pre-Bronze test an encouragement test, and that's why it's pass/fail?

To share a story, it was not very encouraging when I took my Pre Bronze free the first couple of times. The first time, the judge yelled at me from across the ice that my free leg was not high enough on the spiral. That judge had me coming off the ice in tears!
The second time, the judge insisted that I needed a single revolution jump, whereas the rules give you the option of half or whole revolution jumps. Once my coach met with her and showed her the rulebook, she said "Oh well, judges make mistakes.":roll:

[daisies]

It's Nationals! It should be something special that you have to earn the right to compete at! That's my opinion, anyway, and I mean no ill will to pre-Bronzers or anyone else in saying this.
I wanted to say something to that effect, but you said it much more eloquently than I could have. Thanks!

doubletoe mentions being "inclusive" and not "exclusive." That is the goal of adult skating. It is not necessarily the goal of adult nationals, though it tries to be as inclusive as possible. Still, there has to be some standard. If it were about including everyone, there would be solo dance. There might even still be figures. There might even have to be synchro. We'd have to allow all skaters, even if they'd competed in standard-track regionals in the same year -- which is currently not allowed.

The line has to be drawn somewhere. It is "nationals," after all. As has been previously stated, there are plenty of other competitions in which those who have not passed their Bronze FS test may compete. (Unfortunately necessary disclaimer: That is not meant to be snobbish or elite.)

[doubletoe]

Good Heavens, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I think we should mirror the model of standard track. I have NEVER even hinted that if you can't skate at a juvenile level, then you suck and shouldn't be at AN. I'm saying that I prefer the model of excluding the lowest level.

Anyway, speaking of inclusiveness, isn't it wonderful that we can all have our opinions?

I totally understand where you're coming from; I am only trying to point out that maybe we don't need to mirror the model of the standard track to that degree because we are not developing the skaters that are going to represent the U.S. at the Olympics and Worlds. In other words, there's a need to make the standard track Nationals competitions more competitive and exclusive in nature, but I don't see a need to do that so much for the adult track. And if some adults are having a hard time testing up to Bronze due to physical or other adult-specific issues, I don't see how anyone is being hurt by giving them a way to participate in what is really a celebration of adult skating more than a battle to the death to get onto a world team.

[sk8guy71]

I have a question, but I'm not sure where it goes. Since it does relate testing and competion levels, I thought this might be an appropriate place (if not, mods please move). Anyway, I fully understand the testing levels and sequences as well as testing requirements in regards to competition. However, let me fully disclose that any thoughts of competing is quite a ways off in the future for me as I've only been skating for little over a month (but I did pass Adult Basic 1 in 4 weeks --- joined an in-progress 6-week session on the 3rd meeting having never stepped foot on the ice before and then caught up to everyone else and even passed a few). The entire testing process is one of the things that appeals to me most about this sport (and, yes, I have taken this up with the intention of making it a personal sport) as well as how the individual skills learned in each level seem to depend on and grow directly out of skills learned and tested immediately prior. My question in regards to adult competition is: do you *have* to test adult track (PBR, BR, etc.) to compete adult track or can you test standard track and still compete adult track providing that you meet the age requirements (which, at 34, I more than qualify for :P ). I can't exactly explain it, but I think that when it finally comes time for me to actually *test* test, I think I want to test standard track instead of adult track --- just because. And I want to see if I can do it. :lol:

Sue me. I'm stubborn. :halo:

[Debbie S]

I have to say that I agree with others who have said that Nationals should not include the lowest level. Yes, AN has a lot of non-qualifying events, but even to skate in those you have to have passed the test level. There's no skating up. It's Nationals! It should be something special that you have to earn the right to compete at! Not sure I understand your point here, b/c, as pretty much everyone on this thread has mentioned, Pre-Bronze does require a test - actually 2, both MIF and FS, just like the other adult levels. If your premise is that skaters should have to pass a test to go to AN, I think you just made an argument for Pre-Bronze being included. :?? No one is advocating that skaters who have not passed any tests should go and skate up to Pre-Bronze; the point is that skaters who have reached a test level should have the same opportunities as others who have tested.

Don't forget that the adult test structure is different now than when many of you started skating. Now, to even get to Pre-Bronze, skaters have to pass a pretty challenging MIF test. I know a lot of comments have been made about "achieving a certain skating level" or "earning the right" to go to AN, but I think we need to think about what that really means. When I think of skating ability, I don't just think of jumps or spins, but of overall skating level - edge quality, speed, flow between elements, etc. I feel it took a lot of skating ability to master the alternating 3-turns (as well as the other Pre-Bronze moves). Before anyone makes general comments about what level Pre-Bronze skaters have achieved, I think they need to consider the current test structure and its demands on adult skaters. I know that if I didn't have to pass Bronze MIF, I'd have passed the Bronze FS test 8 months ago - maybe even sooner, if you consider that all the time spent on both Pre-Bronze and Bronze MIF could have been devoted to my jumps or backspin.

So how does one define "National-level" ability? Is it having passed Bronze MIF? Is it passing the current Bronze FS test (I've heard the original was much easier - no backspin, for example)? Not all current Bronze skaters fit that profile. I think people need to think about what skills are required of Pre-Bronze skaters to reach the test level nowadays and reconsider their perceptions.

[rlichtefeld]

I'm going to jump in here with a whole different take.

As someone who has been the chair of the the Peach Classic for the last 4 years, and our club just hosted Eastern Synchs this past January, and I was on the Local Organizing Committee for the 2004 Championships in Atlanta, I have an inkling of what it takes to put on a large event.

With over 450 skaters at this year's AN, it is probably larger than most freestyle competitions held in the US, except for synchro comps. We had over 1600 skaters at Eastern Synchs this year, but we really only had to deal with 110 teams. And, synchro teams are organized.

Most Regionals are not as large as AN. Sectionals are much smaller.

Other than a few huge facilities, that are usually only found in the North and Midwest, I'm not sure any club COULD or would want to host a larger AN.

I know my club couldn't bid on it. We don't have the facilities required in the bid package. My home rink only has adequate seating on one of the sheets. Yes, our second sheet has less than on the South rink in Dallas. The other 2 sheet facility in town (we only have 2 in Atlanta), has a similar problem. And, the closest rink we could use with either for the practice facility is over an hour away with good traffic. And, Atlanta is not known for good traffic days. And, renting the arena is out of the question with the current entry fees.

Adding skaters does not necessarily make an event more profitable. There is a break even point. The rinks don't want to shut down for too many days, they make some money on their normal programs. So, if you are going to use a lot of ice, sometimes they INCREASE their rates.

I'm not saying that I'm for or against Pre-Bronze skaters at AN, but the argument that by adding them it will make money for the hosting club is not true.

Rob

[sk8er1964]

To those who are arguing that Adult Nationals should mirror standard track nationals by NOT including the lowest level, I'd like to say that sounds a little delusional. Most of us adult skaters are performing far below what you would see from the best Juvenile skaters in the country, so if we were going to shut people out based on skating ability, we should probably take Bronze and Silver out of Adult Nationals, too.

In addition, most of the events at AN are non-qualifying events, which is further proof that the primary focus of Adult Nationals is to be INCLUSIVE rather than exclusive. And honestly, Adult Nationals is not where the USFS goes looking for its Olympic and Worlds team skaters, so there is no need to keep anyone out out of fear of lowering the overall level of competitive skating in the U.S..

The only issue I can see is that there would be less incentive for skaters to pass their Bronze MIF and FS tests, which is the reason given to me when I once asked a committee member why Pre-Bronze was excluded from AN. This clearly does not apply to hardworking skaters like Jazzpants, but there are always a few adult skaters who are either lazy (a minority) or more interested in winning a medal than challenging themselves (also a minority). Then again, people can "sandbag" at any level--such as Bronze skaters who really ought to be competing at Silver--so if this is the only concern, I'd say they should let Pre-Bronze skaters join us at Nationals.

I signed. :)

Good post, doubletoe :bow:

OK, guys, why do you compete at AN? Except for the possible elite 60 skaters (12 championship gold ladies, 12 championship gold men, 12 championship masters ladies, 12 championship masters men, and 12 championship dancers), the rest of us are there to skate in a very large open adult event, to enjoy the friendships that we've made over the years, on line and in person, to see people we get to see once or twice a year, and to put our best efforts out there against the largest group of competitors we are likely to see in any given year. We go as much to cheer for our current friends and our future friends as we do for our own skates.

The USFS doesn't consider any of us open skaters, whether it be bronze or masters senior, to be anything but skaters at an open event -- just like skating standard open juvenile at regionals. Winning Gold III doesn't get you written up in Skating Magazine. Winning Bronze I doesn't either. Well, guess what? Winning Pre-Bronze II would be considered the same by the USFS as winning Silver IV. Get my drift?

I don't see why it's such a big problem to add the pre-bronzes to AN. It's for us adults, not for the adulation we are going to get from the skating community. It could add to our numbers, add to our enthusiasm, and add to the fun of AN. I, for one, say let's go for it!

[dcden]

When I think of skating ability, I don't just think of jumps or spins, but of overall skating level - edge quality, speed, flow between elements, etc.
Well the flow between elements is not tested until the Bronze FS test, which is the argument that I've been making all along: the Bronze FS tests skating ability within the context of a program, whereas the PB FS test does not.


I know that if I didn't have to pass Bronze MIF, I'd have passed the Bronze FS test 8 months ago - maybe even sooner, if you consider that all the time spent on both Pre-Bronze and Bronze MIF could have been devoted to my jumps or backspin.
This seems to be an argument that could have come in handy during the Adult MIF debate 4 years ago. For the record, my stance on that issue was that Adult MIF should be optional and not required for competition or test levels, but the GC had other ideas and the rest is history. Is that where the real origin of this whole debate is coming from? Because if so, then it was already brought up back then that instituting Adult MIF would force adults to shell out more $$$ for tests and training, would exacerbate the problem of 'sandbagging' as it would take longer for skaters to test up a level, was following a pattern set by standard track that didn't necessarily need to be applied to adults, etc. All of these arguments were countered by the desire to improve the level of adult skating and provide a more specific learning track for the adult skating in general. Again, I was not too crazy about the idea of instituting mandatory Adult MIF at the time (even though I continue to train & test standard track MIF), but I was on the minority side of that battle and life went on.

[dcden]

Adding skaters does not necessarily make an event more profitable. There is a break even point. The rinks don't want to shut down for too many days, they make some money on their normal programs. So, if you are going to use a lot of ice, sometimes they INCREASE their rates.

I'm not saying that I'm for or against Pre-Bronze skaters at AN, but the argument that by adding them it will make money for the hosting club is not true.

Rob makes a good point here about the numbers of skaters at AN, and that is why I think the writers of this petition need to analyze this angle more deeply than what has been discussed here. We've talked about inclusion, camaraderie between adult skaters, how hard we've worked to get to our current test level, etc. but in my cynical view none of that means squat with the USFS when compared to cold hard cash. I would be interested in seeing data from the past few AN's regarding their bottom-line profit, how it would have increased or decreased with X number of added starts, and how many potential PB skaters would be added with the proposal in question. In other words, what really is that break even point, where are we currently in relation to that point, and how does adding the PB event affect that? So far I haven't seen much talk about that. I'm in no position to comment on it but am curious to hear from others like Rob who have some perspective on this.

[doubletoe]

Doubletoe: As to your comment on adults being lower than standard track......

But.....Maybe we could be closer to the standard track if they let people do more difficult jumps earlier like the standard track.....Doubles at Silver!!!!!(I had to get that in there!!! 2sal was very close today!)LOL!

Beware what you ask for. ;) If you get your wish, you'll probably end up having to skate against people who not only have double sals, but also have double toes, double loops and Gold level spins, LOL!

[doubletoe]

For the record, my stance on that issue was that Adult MIF should be optional and not required for competition or test levels, but the GC had other ideas and the rest is history. Is that where the real origin of this whole debate is coming from? Because if so, then it was already brought up back then that instituting Adult MIF would force adults to shell out more $$$ for tests and training, would exacerbate the problem of 'sandbagging' as it would take longer for skaters to test up a level, was following a pattern set by standard track that didn't necessarily need to be applied to adults, etc. All of these arguments were countered by the desire to improve the level of adult skating and provide a more specific learning track for the adult skating in general. Again, I was not too crazy about the idea of instituting mandatory Adult MIF at the time (even though I continue to train & test standard track MIF), but I was on the minority side of that battle and life went on.

Although my initiation into Bronze a few years ago was delayed 5 months by the brand new MIF test requirement, and although I definitely resented it at the time. . . and found the Silver and Gold MIF to be thorns in my shoe as well. . . I must admit the MIF requirements are extremely important, kind of like math. You may find it annoying and pointless at the time, but you can't say you're educated without it. ;) At least half of any freestyle program is composed of skating between elements, and it would be painful for everyone watching if everyone had really crappy edges and turns.

[daisies]

At least half of any freestyle program is composed of skating between elements, and it would be painful for everyone watching if everyone had really crappy edges and turns.
Amen, sista! :)

[Debbie S]

Well the flow between elements is not tested until the Bronze FS test, which is the argument that I've been making all along: the Bronze FS tests skating ability within the context of a program, whereas the PB FS test does not..Well, my point is that skills that result in flow between elements are tested (with mastery required) at the Pre-Bronze level b/c of the moves requirement. Getting to Pre-Bronze is not just about doing a couple of jumps and spins that you learned in group lessons.

This seems to be an argument that could have come in handy during the Adult MIF debate 4 years ago. Well, I wasn't a member of the USFSA 4 years ago. In fact, I was still in Basic Skills group lessons. My understanding is that the individual from the Adult Skating Committee who pushed it through was a Gold skater who wouldn't even be affected by it. But I know that subject's been debated to death and I don't want to get the thread off-topic. That's not where the debate about adding Pre-Bronze to AN is coming from. But b/c of the moves requirement, Pre-Bronze skaters are required to demonstrate a mastery of skating skills at a level that prebiously wasn't even required at Bronze (unless someone put alt 3's or BI edge lobe patterns in their test program).

Even bronze level is not even above USFSA basic skills freestyle 2 or 3 maybe.First, I assume you're talking about the test elements and not the elements you need to be competitive in Bronze? Actually, the skills required in the Bronze test are more at the FS 4 level (sit spin and loop jump, plus the other jumps and spins from earlier levels). But it's not all about the jumps - getting through the Pre-Bronze and Bronze MIF tests takes about a year for each test. And the standard for passing USFSA tests is much higher than group lesson tests. By the time a skater has passed even Pre-Bronze MIF, much less Bronze, they are way past FS 2 or 3 or 4. Becoming competitive in Bronze requires skills at FS 6 (lutz) and beyond, and it's not enough to be able to do them; they must be done well with good form, speed, and flow.

I guess what I'm saying is that even if there is overwhelming support and no opposition to adding pre-Bronze to Nationals, I can't see how it would happen before 2008 or maybe even 2009 Nationals. By then, the interested parties may well have passed their Bronze tests.Uh, well, maybe we will and maybe we won't. But we're not the only Pre-Bronze skaters in the U.S. now or in the future. It may not go through until '08 or later, but that doesn't mean that it's not an important issue or adding Pre-Bronze then won't help anyone. Even if I had passed Bronze MIF back in October and passed FS and went to AN, I would still support the petition.

[jazzpants]

Good post, doubletoe :bow:

OK, guys, why do you compete at AN? Except for the possible elite 60 skaters (12 championship gold ladies, 12 championship gold men, 12 championship masters ladies, 12 championship masters men, and 12 championship dancers), the rest of us are there to skate in a very large open adult event, to enjoy the friendships that we've made over the years, on line and in person, to see people we get to see once or twice a year, and to put our best efforts out there against the largest group of competitors we are likely to see in any given year. We go as much to cheer for our current friends and our future friends as we do for our own skates.

The USFS doesn't consider any of us open skaters, whether it be bronze or masters senior, to be anything but skaters at an open event -- just like skating standard open juvenile at regionals. Winning Gold III doesn't get you written up in Skating Magazine. Winning Bronze I doesn't either. Well, guess what? Winning Pre-Bronze II would be considered the same by the USFS as winning Silver IV. Get my drift?

I don't see why it's such a big problem to add the pre-bronzes to AN. It's for us adults, not for the adulation we are going to get from the skating community. It could add to our numbers, add to our enthusiasm, and add to the fun of AN. I, for one, say let's go for it!And that, my friends, is what I'm trying to push on!!! :D

Seriously, I did not get in this petition just so I can get out of doing my Bronze Moves and FS test!!! (See my lesson notes today!!!) If anything, I promised my coaches (who did sign the petition) that I will continue to work on those Bronze Moves and FS tests. I haven't asked Jay about why he supports it, but my secondary coach says "They might as well! It's not like they were making that much money at Dallas this year!" I hate for USFS to take away our Adult Nationals fun b/c of a "lack of interest." I want to go to Adult Nationals to skate and meet my online friends!!! I want to help the underwear phantom with her/his next caper! I want to be able to throw vodka nips at NoVa after his Silver men's program (or spike his Gatorade bottle.) :twisted: And of course, I want to be able to show the rest of the adult skating community this secret Yanni program that I've been hiding pretty much since 2001. (But since FS Channel is here, you guys can go see it now!) You get the drift???

And if you guys are suggesting we meet at Peach Classic, that's fine and all, but I don't get to see the Midwestern Sectionals people. (Maybe except for the sporadic one or two of them.) Plus I usually don't start on new programs for Skate SF 'til about August (if I'm even competing at Skate SF this year...) b/c I'm too busy working on MOVES!!!

NoVa and you guys who are in non-qualifying but support the idea of a threshold for AN -- if you are trying to mimick standard Nationals, say bye-bye to your events!!! By your logic, only Gold and Masters level skaters should compete, b/c they're qualifying competitors for Nationals!!! By your definition, YOU did NOT earn the right to compete at AN... b/c you are NOT in a qualifying event!

...getting through the Pre-Bronze and Bronze MIF tests takes about a year for each test. And for some of us, a LOT longer! I think I've been working on Bronze Moves since 2002, so it's been about 4 years now!!! :frus:

Beachbabe... trust me. If your mom took up skating the same day and time as you, you might find yourself blowing her clear out of the water in terms of skating. We don't have a lot of time to dedicate to skate. We have to go to work (so we can afford our coaches, ice time, etc.) And since we're older, our bodies are more likely to break down, resulting in having to take time off from overuse injuries. And we still have responsibilities to take care of when we get home. We have chores to do around the house all the time, bills to pay, bills to maintain. Practice and perseverence is much more powerful than any physical barrier, yes, but it sure take a LOT longer with those physical barrier! A LOT longer!!! :frus: And being at it for over 4 years, I think you can see that I probably have a HUGE amount of perseverence. I'm still plugging at that Bronze Moves test, b/c my coaches keeps telling me "I'm real close to being ready to test" and "I'm so much better in my skating than the last time I took the test last October (and only had one judge pass me.)"

And oh, BTW, I do skate 8.5-9 hours a week!!! It comes to about 5 days a week... 2 of the days I skate at least 2 hours, 1 day 1.5 and two days at 1 hr. And of course, lots of repetition on those moves and exercises I do for secondary coach to *get* my Bronze Moves. Are you going to tell me that I've been lazy and don't practice enough? Or try hard enough?

I expect to be in a similar situation next year...very possible that I wont qualify for silver...should I petition for a pre-silver event?

Practice....Practice...... If it is supposed to happen it will!MSF, trust me on this, dude!!! You came up in an incredibly quick amount of time from nothing to Bronze and eyeing for Silver. See above paragraph to see how often I skate and how long I've been working on Bronze Moves (and admittedly, despite all the time and practice I put into it, why it just does NOT happen!!!) :frus: Count your blessings that you've made it to Adult Nationals!!! Some of us are very envious of where you are in your skating life now.

[sk8pics]

Just a few comments...

-It's not the job of the petitioners to figure out a detailed and exacting plan for adding pre-bronze fs to AN. The purpose of the petition is to show some support for the idea so that the proper groups/committees in the USFS take up the item for discussion. If the adult committee and the GC were to approve it, I'm sure that there would be a sub-group of people to work on it. And that would probably happen in advance of any vote by anyone, ie., a reasonable and workable proposal would have to be put forth.

-We don't know at this point the exact financial implications of adding pre-bronze. rlichtefield had spoken of a break-even point but we don't know what that point is.

-skaternum, I didn't think you were being evil, just saying how I took part of your comments. I didn't like it, but that doesn't mean I have anything against you personally. Yes, we all have our right to our opinion.

-I do think it is somewhat insulting to suggest that the petitioners are doing this solely for themselves. Someone (sorry, I forget who) implied it by saying that by the time this would pass, that the petitioners would have passed their bronze tests anyway. The petition, and people who have signed it in support, does not relate to specific individuals, but rather to a class of people now and in the future.

[NoVa Sk8r]

Well, my point is that skills that result in flow between elements are tested (with mastery required) at the Pre-Bronze level b/c of the moves requirement. Getting to Pre-Bronze is not just about doing a couple of jumps and spins that you learned in group lessons.Well, no; the pre-bronze test does not require "mastery." It requires an elementary sense of control and edges. To quote the judges' sheet (http://www.usfsa.org/content/JP_MF-Adult%20Pre%20Bronze.pdf): "The purpose of this test is to encourage beginning adult skaters to learn the fundamentals of ice skating. No great
deal of technical ability, carriage or flow is expected. Candidates must show knowledge of the steps, fairly good edges and some evidence of good form."

I have found that when people do not pass a test, they say that the judges were looking for perfection or mastery. Nonsense. When I finally passed my silver moves, they were far from great or mastered; they were "passable." Please don't throw in the term "mastered" just because you or someone else took a while to pass. That demeans the judging process IMHO and, in a way, detracts from your pre-bronze AN argument.

[NoVa Sk8r]

I haven't asked Jay about why he supports it, but my secondary coach says "They might as well! It's not like they were making that much money at Dallas this year!" I hate for USFS to take away our Adult Nationals fun b/c of a "lack of interest."well of course your coach(es) thiks you should go to AN. They make more money from you with lessons and such. Plus, they get to have a "student going to Nats."

I want to go to Adult Nationals to skate and meet my online friends!!! I want to help the underwear phantom with her/his next caper! I want to be able to throw vodka nips at NoVa after his Silver men's program (or spike his Gatorade bottle.) :twisted: And of course, I want to be able to show the rest of the adult skating community this secret Yanni program that I've been hiding pretty much since 2001. (But since FS Channel is here, you guys can go see it now!) You get the drift??? Plenty of people went just to watch. You don't have to skate to enjoy AN. OK, I know, the primary point is to skate. But I had to throw that in there.

And if you guys are suggesting we meet at Peach Classic, that's fine and all, but I don't get to see the Midwestern Sectionals people. (Maybe except for the sporadic one or two of them.) Plus I usually don't start on new programs for Skate SF 'til about August (if I'm even competing at Skate SF this year...) b/c I'm too busy working on MOVES!!!As I've often heard, STOP competing and just focus solely on moves. Competitions are a big distraction. Believe me, I've put gold moves on hold umpteen times--I passed silver moves/FS tests in Nov. '04. I think when someone says I've been working on moves for x number of years, they need to throw in a qualifying statement such as, "Oh yeah, I also compete and do exhibition shows. Again, I think it is disingenuous to say, "I have been working on moves for x number of year" because when you remove all the distractions/life crises, that might work out to be a year or so. :lol:

NoVa and you guys who are in non-qualifying but support the idea of a threshold for AN -- if you are trying to mimick standard Nationals, say bye-bye to your events!!! By your logic, only Gold and Masters level skaters should compete, b/c they're qualifying competitors for Nationals!!! By your definition, YOU did NOT earn the right to compete at AN... b/c you are NOT in a qualifying event!Maybe, but according to the USFS crossover rules, silver moves is equivalent to juvenile moves; gold moves, intermediate. Those 2 standard track levels comprise junior Nats. But as skaternum noted, the point is to model not mimic standard track.

And oh, BTW, I do skate 8.5-9 hours a week!!! It comes to about 5 days a week... 2 of the days I skate at least 2 hours, 1 day 1.5 and two days at 1 hr. And of course, lots of repetition on those moves and exercises I do for secondary coach to *get* my Bronze Moves. Are you going to tell me that I've been lazy and don't practice enough? Or try hard enough? You have often posted that you skate on crowded PUBLIC session (or am i wrong here?). I must say, that is not conducive to efficient training. :twisted: OK, i'm done being difficult and grumpy (for now :lol: ). Time to leave the house and go to work!

[flo]

I do like the idea that Adult Nationals is different from other available adult events. It is and should be something to work for. If the national judges which are required for a national event complain about the level of skating at current nationals, adding pre-bronze will only make it worse.
No offense to anyone - I just believe there should be a minimum level, bronze at least, to compete at AN.

And as far as the comment about those of "experienced" (not old) skaters passing the tests quite a while ago before the changes, they may have been slightly different, but remember that when we passed the tests the judges had NO experience or guidelines with adults. If you think they judge you as kids now, imagine what it was like then! Also, I'd put my Nats bronze skate in '97 up against any today.

[CanAmSk8ter]

Why not have a pre-Bronze/Bronze only interp? Restricting gimmicks would keep the judges happy, and give the pre-Bronzers a chance to compete.

I'm glad I kept reading before responding, because this is what I was going to suggest. I was chatting with a lady in Dallas who was there to support a friend, a Pre-Bronzer allowed to do Interp because she had passed her Pre-Bronze dance test. While I'm pretty sure she did place last, she did a nice job selling the program and had, IIRC, one fourth- and one sixth-place ordinal (out of eight). I personally thought she did a really nice job selling the program, especially since her skating skills were obviously lower than those of her competitors, and would have placed her somewhere around fourth or sixth myself.

As far as the 21-24 y.o. group not rasing the numbers, consider this: I skated in a Class I group of six skaters. Every one of us had to fly to Dallas. How many people in that age group (just out of college, many in grad school, young newlyweds, etc.) can afford to fly somewhere to compete AFTER paying a year's worth of skating bills? Had AN been held in an area with a higher concentration of skaters (Colorado, Michigan, New England, NY/NJ) I'm guessing we'd have seen more skaters in that age group (and probably all age groups). Don't get me wrong, I don't think AN should be held in these areas every year- I think it's great that adult skating got exposure in a place like Texas, where skating isn't as big as in other parts of the country, and it's always more fun to travel somewhere new- but I have a feeling that the numbers across the board would have been bigger elsewhere.

Edited to add, what do people think about allowing Pre-Bronzers to skate up to bronze at AN? That way we're not "excluding" anybody, but I don't know that many Pre-Bronzers would actually do it since most Pre-Bonzers aren't going to be competitive at Bronze. I'd be very interested in seeing where the break-even point Rob mentioned falls as far as start numbers and entry numbers.

I personally don't have a problem with AN's only being bronze and up. I can remember the early 1990's when the big issue was getting USFSA to take adult skating more seriously, give us a nationals, etc. We've made a TON of progress, but I think adding Pre-Bronze would result in some (not all) members of the skating community taking adult skating less seriously; I can already hear comments like, "Why don't we just add pre-pre to Nationals then?" (Not saying I feel this way, just that I think a fair number of people may, and that I'm not sure that's a good thing for adult skating overall).

[dcden]

Had AN been held in an area with a higher concentration of skaters (Colorado, Michigan, New England, NY/NJ) I'm guessing we'd have seen more skaters in that age group (and probably all age groups). Don't get me wrong, I don't think AN should be held in these areas every year - I think it's great that adult skating got exposure in a place like Texas, where skating isn't as big as in other parts of the country, and it's always more fun to travel somewhere new- but I have a feeling that the numbers across the board would have been bigger elsewhere.
I hear ya. I don't want to beat a dead horse about Dallas, just to say that I agree there are other cities where it would be fun to have AN at. Hopefully some of these other areas you mention with large contingents of adult skaters will put in bids for 2008 and beyond (Does Honolulu have a skating club? What about Vegas?)

[Spreadeagle]

Not sure I understand your point here, b/c, as pretty much everyone on this thread has mentioned, Pre-Bronze does require a test - actually 2, both MIF and FS, just like the other adult levels. If your premise is that skaters should have to pass a test to go to AN, I think you just made an argument for Pre-Bronze being included. :?? No one is advocating that skaters who have not passed any tests should go and skate up to Pre-Bronze; the point is that skaters who have reached a test level should have the same opportunities as others who have tested.

Sorry for not being clear on this. What I meant was that at Nationals, to compete at a certain level, you have to have passed the test for that level. You can't "skate up". As an example, say that I have a Gold level program and I have been competing at Gold in several local non-qualifying competitions, but I haven't actually passed the Gold test. If I want to compete at Nationals, I have to skate Silver because that's the highest test I have. No exceptions and no skating up. This is stricter than local non-qualifying competitions.

-It's not the job of the petitioners to figure out a detailed and exacting plan for adding pre-bronze fs to AN. The purpose of the petition is to show some support for the idea so that the proper groups/committees in the USFS take up the item for discussion. If the adult committee and the GC were to approve it, I'm sure that there would be a sub-group of people to work on it. And that would probably happen in advance of any vote by anyone, ie., a reasonable and workable proposal would have to be put forth.
I wasn't trying to imply that the petitioners are responsible for pushing a rule change through. I was simply curious as to the intentions/goals of even having a petition. I was wondering what the next step was, or if the petition was just to get an idea of the feasibility of trying to get a rule change through and how much support there would be. I also just wanted to point out that there would be a whole lot more work required in trying to get pre-Bronze into Nationals.

To share a story, it was not very encouraging when I took my Pre Bronze free the first couple of times.
I'm really sorry that you had that experience. I think that's horrible when judges behave that way. I hope you reported it to the club that was hosting the test session.

[MusicSkateFan]

To the comments about removing Bronze and Silver events from Nationals because they are non-qualifying:


I dont Have a problem with that! Very few people watched my Bronze event anyway! I would work that much harder towards GOLD....Sure, it would be another 2-3 years before I could compete at Adult Nationals. I would still keep skating and keep doing local competitions till I got there. It would make it more special!

My original understanding was the tests were the qualifying rounds.

But my main thought is: We are already so limited in the adult realm (no axel till silver...no double till gold..now even no 2f or 2z till masters) now you want no free program test to qualify for nationals...I guess it will happen...frankly I dont see the point...Adult Nats(at least this first one for me) just felt like a larger competition...in fact I think I actually met more people and made better connections at Halloween then I did at AN!

I am rambling...I just feel we should keep the starting point at Bronze...The BronzeMIF/FREE tests are the first ones where there is a benchmark of 2.5 but I guess since they're not going to give us numerical scores even at AN then shouldnt all the tests be Pass/Retry. Whew...I am glad it is time for a vacation!

[dcden]

Some comments...

I remember back when i started skating abt 2 yrs ago, i had all those elements after about 2 months. It would be ridiculous to allow that level at a national competition. I know the fact that i'm younger (16 specifically) does factor into that, but I can't imagine a learning curve for an adult being x10 longer.


I think there is a huge difference between starting to skate at 14 and starting as an adult.

I would agree with Skittl1321 in general, however regarding the PB free test, the difference is smaller than say for an adult vs. a kid trying to test the Intermediate FS test. The PB test is, as Nova and others pointed out, considered an encouragement test. I had a similar level of progress with the PB free test after about 3 months of lessons (@ age 28), so I would say Beachbabe is not way out of line in her perspective of progress at that level. The higher you go though, the more the adult-onset takes effect.

-It's not the job of the petitioners to figure out a detailed and exacting plan for adding pre-bronze fs to AN. The purpose of the petition is to show some support for the idea so that the proper groups/committees in the USFS take up the item for discussion...

Fair enough, you have a good point. I was just pointing out the need for a plan because that's where I currently stand on the issue: somewhat against but willing to review numbers just to see what the effect would be. I think the petitioners would have their view strengthened with some of this data already in-hand but if the point is to just get it on the table, then ok.

I have the same reservations as flo and CanAmSk8ter, that we don't want to risk diluting the field and turning off the national judges. As I understand it, Dallas had trouble this year trying to get judges to come to AN, so adding PB could make that worse. I'm not saying that's right or fair of the judges to feel that way, but then again, if you don't have willing judges to come to AN, you don't have AN, so there you are. Also keep in mind that the whole mindset of taking adult skating seriously was a major push behind the Adult MIF movement, which as stated before was passed pretty easily a few years ago.

(Aside: ITA with doubletoe that MIF are important, which as I said is why I continue to train & test them. But at the time, I was against them being mandatory due to time/money concerns for adults. However I can't deny that MIF does help you with those ever precious in-betweens.)

[Debbie S]

Well, no; the pre-bronze test does not require "mastery." It requires an elementary sense of control and edges. Feel free to substitute another word if mastery offends you, but the fact is, the judges do want to see that you've achieved a level of competency on the moves at the current test level before they'll let go on to the next level - that's the point of testing. I imagine it's difficult to know what quality of skating is expected on Pre-Bronze or Bronze MIF or how hard someone had to work to get those moves to a passing standard if you didn't take those tests and had firsthand experience with the way those moves are judged.

I have found that when people do not pass a test, they say that the judges were looking for perfection or mastery. Actually, I passed the test the first time.

[Debbie S]

I have the same reservations as flo and CanAmSk8ter, that we don't want to risk diluting the field and turning off the national judges. As I understand it, Dallas had trouble this year trying to get judges to come to AN, so adding PB could make that worse.Well, isn't that a problem with the judges and USFSA, and not the skaters? It sounds like there need to be some changes made to how the judges view adult skating, through seminars or other avenues. Yes, I realize this has been an ongoing process since adult skating was created, but obviously there is more work to do.

I think there might be other reasons they had a hard time finding national-level judges to come to Dallas. First, it was at the end of a long Olympic season, so many judges were probably tired. Second, it was right after Worlds. Has there been a problem getting judges in other years when AN was later and in a non-Oly year?

[crayonskater]

You're not going to convince the National level judges that adult skating is serious competition by arguing that the pre-preliminary equivalent should count as qualifying for a National competition. (And even if you changed pre-Bronze around, you'd still need an encouragement test, and there's always going to be people caught on the bubble.)

Really, it comes down to a) the purpose of adult skating and b) the purpose of the USFSA's involvement in adult skating. If the purpose of adult skating is just for fun and exercise and camaraderie, and that's certainly a large part of it, then MiTF, testing levels, etc, shouldn't matter at all. But then there seems to be no reason for USFSA to be involved at all. (Major League Baseball doesn't sponsor weekend softball tournaments.)

I guess I look at it like this. My sister trains for a marathon. It's her first, so she's going to an open course, and there's no time limits or restrictions. What she can't do yet is enter the Boston Marathon. She works hard! She trains! But to enter the Boston Marathon you have to have qualified with a certain time. And no amount of pointing to her practice schedule makes her run faster. Or claiming that lots of people run the Boston marathon for fun, and excluding people makes it less fun.

Now, I'm decided on where pre-Bronze should fall in all of this, but it's not like other sports don't have to deal with it.

I also wanted to second beachbabe. I started at 24, and I had the freestyle pre-Bronze down very quickly, in about 5 months. Moves took me a bit longer, but it seems weird to think that 'qualified for Nationals' means 'took group lessons.'

I realize pre-Bronze competitiveness is a lot higher, but to *qualify* by taking the test doesn't really require much.

[dcden]

Well, isn't that a problem with the judges and USFSA, and not the skaters? It sounds like there need to be some changes made to how the judges view adult skating, through seminars or other avenues. Yes, I realize this has been an ongoing process since adult skating was created, but obviously there is more work to do.
Yes, it is a problem with judges and USFS, and while I would like to think that these attitudes would change via seminars, I've come to be more cynical about that over the years. At my club, it's known that many judges mark the Adult MIF tests as if they are grading from a standard-track perspective (even though they are supposed to allow for adult-onset concessions on certain moves).


First, it was at the end of a long Olympic season, so many judges were probably tired. Second, it was right after Worlds.
I didn't realize we had judges doing both Olympics/Worlds and AN's. Any idea who they were? I'd like to see if they were on my panel.

[dcden]

ITA with pretty much everything crayonskater said in her/his most recent post.

Also this:
And even if you changed pre-Bronze around, you'd still need an encouragement test, and there's always going to be people caught on the bubble.

While I have advocated the "PB at AN implies a tougher PB free test" philosophy, crayon is correct here. And then what happens? Do we have a PRE-pre-Bronze level? Would those skaters subsequently clamor to be included in AN? Where does it stop?

[crayonskater]

As far as the 21-24 y.o. group not rasing the numbers, consider this: I skated in a Class I group of six skaters. Every one of us had to fly to Dallas. How many people in that age group (just out of college, many in grad school, young newlyweds, etc.) can afford to fly somewhere to compete AFTER paying a year's worth of skating bills?

*raises hand* I'm in grad school. 26. The only reason I can afford this sport at all: the university owns the rink. I can squeak out one $35 lesson a week.

I'm not testing (though I'm thinking of starting a serious moves track) and have no plans to compete because the costumes, plane flights, etc. would cost more than I can afford -- it would mean not buying my sisters Christmas presents or skipping a friend's wedding.

For a sport I do for fun and exercise, it's not worth the expense. It might be in the future, but you know, there's also starting a family, new jobs, etc.

[jazzpants]

well of course your coach(es) thiks you should go to AN. They make more money from you with lessons and such. Plus, they get to have a "student going to Nats."Ummm, I should point out that my secondary coach does NOT go to Adult Nationals. Her focus is on her teenager girls. She's not make money off of me going to Adult Nationals. And it also doesn't impact my NYC coach either, who ALSO signed the petition. The guy sees me once or two a year!!! As for my primary coach... up 'til recently, he was also a competitor at AN. I was actually concerned whether I would get his support for this more than anyone else, actually. It depended on whether I sent him the petition whether I was addressing "Jay the Masters Men skater" or "Jay the coach."

Plenty of people went just to watch. You don't have to skate to enjoy AN. OK, I know, the primary point is to skate. But I had to throw that in there.Yeah... that IS the point!!! Next point...

As I've often heard, STOP competing and just focus solely on moves. Competitions are a big distraction. Believe me, I've put gold moves on hold umpteen times--I passed silver moves/FS tests in Nov. '04. I think when someone says I've been working on moves for x number of years, they need to throw in a qualifying statement such as, "Oh yeah, I also compete and do exhibition shows. Again, I think it is disingenuous to say, "I have been working on moves for x number of year" because when you remove all the distractions/life crises, that might work out to be a year or so. :lol: Ummmm... Nova... except for this year...I have competed maybe ONCE a year for 2.5 years (Oct 2004, Oct 2005 and March 2006) at Skate SF and recently at Sectionals! THAT'S IT!!! I've used the SAME PROGRAM for 2.5 years, so the training time for it was maybe 1-1.5 month a competition. (Sectionals was actually 2 WEEKS!!! I know... you're gonna kill me for telling 'ya that I hardly practiced my program prior to the comp, but now you know why.) And what do you think I was doing when for all 2002 and 2003 and the rest of the time I wasn't preparing for a comp? Have you guys wondered why I didn't go to Peach Classic the past few years and have no intentions to go this year? (Yes, money is a factor too, but so was spending enough time for Bronze moves. It just didn't fit into my overall training time.)

I had mentioned a few times that this Sectionals will be my last competition until I pass Bronze Moves. I have kept my word so far. I've had at least a couple of local competitions come thru that was after Sectionals and I immediately shot it down and said "Nope! I'm testing Bronze Moves!" I have no plans to compete at Skate SF either, unless I pass my Bronze FS by then.

You have often posted that you skate on crowded PUBLIC session (or am i wrong here?). I must say, that is not conducive to efficient training. :twisted:First thing, the type of stuff I have to work on does not need a big amount of space to work on. (Getting a proper mohawk, working on good pushes and edges on forward and back crossovers (can be done in hockey circles), practicing the choctaw from the back crossovers to a strong FO edge, fixing that 4th step on the 5 step mohawk (also can be done on hockey circle or line.) Second thing: do you get to skate midday afternoon during the school year? I do!!! Third thing: Around late April to about October, my weekend rink isn't as crowded. Last thing, except for this current gig, my job requires me to work late nights and weekends as well as normal business hours. I am NOT a morning person b/c of that. (Didn't you guys read enough of my being a figure skater on a software geek's schedule?) Oh, and when I'm not working at my job and I don't have access to a skating rink, guess where I am? AT THE GYM working on cardio (45 min), strength training, pilates and yoga!!! (Okay, I'm not there as long as you, NoVa, but most of us think you should have a sleeping bag at the gym anyway.) :twisted: :lol:

OK, i'm done being difficult and grumpy (for now :lol: ). Time to leave the house and go to work!I can dish out grumpiness as well as you can, NoVa. I have at least 5 years of grumpiness to unload. But in the end, it doesn't serve me any purpose. I'd rather stay focused and keep pushing.

While I have advocated the "PB at AN implies a tougher PB free test" philosophy, crayon is correct here. And then what happens? Do we have a PRE-pre-Bronze level? Would those skaters subsequently clamor to be included in AN? Where does it stop?what I'm suggesting is...you don't! You don't use that "code"! You give them the chance to go ahead and do a program at Adult Nationals too and get that experience in doing a program in front of a large crowd and manage it thru there. (Yes, the job hunting "Catch-22" I was talking about.)

Look you guys. I know you guys have strong objections here for this and I'm certainly NOT asking you to support this petition. As far as I am certain, if you don't support the petition, DON'T SIGN THE PETITION!!! It's as simple as that!!!

I am asking you to be sympathetic and supportive (and not mean spirited) of those who are trying very hard to pass their Bronze tests. They worked very hard and have put in a lot of time, effort, personal sacrifice, and have dealt with a lot of issues outside of the rink, (family death, long unemployments, etc.) for it like you have. Be there as encouraging, caring and helpful (w/o being imposing of course) a friend as you possibly can to help them towards the goals that you've already accomplished. And if you can't be that person, do them a favor and let them know "I'm sorry! I can't be sympathetic towards your Pre-Bronzers" and step away from them. Leave them alone!

I'll close (for now :twisted: ) by saying being at Adult Nationals IS very special! And no matter what level you are skating at, NO ONE can take away the accomplishments you have earned being at AN. NO ONE!!! And THAT is what matters in the end!

[skaternum]

I am asking you to be sympathetic and supportive (and not mean spirited) of those who are trying very hard to pass their Bronze tests. They worked very hard and have put in a lot of time, effort, personal sacrifice, and have dealt with a lot of issues outside of the rink, (family death, long unemployments, etc.) for it like you have. Be there as encouraging, caring and helpful (w/o being imposing of course) a friend as you possibly can to help them towards the goals that you've already accomplished. And if you can't be that person, do them a favor and let them know "I'm sorry! I can't be sympathetic towards your Pre-Bronzers" and step away from them. Leave them alone!
I think you and TerriC are confusing some things. I cannot speak for everyone who opposes Pre-Bronze at Adult Nationals (hereafter referred to as PBatAN), but I can say that I AM supportive of pre-bronzers trying to pass their tests. I've always tried to be encouraging to you guys and pre-bronzers at my rinks. That is in NO WAY related to my feelings about PBatAN. You guys seem to be interpreting our lack of support for a concept as lack of support for people. Nothing could be further from the truth. We've all been at the bottom rung of the testing ladder, trying to make our way up it. We understand that you're struggling and working as hard as you can. We applaud you for your tenacity. But we just don't agree with the concept of PBatAN. It isn't personal, and we wish you'd respect our right to hold an opposite opinion without seeing us as antagonistic to pre-bronze skaters. It ain't personal.

[crayonskater]

I am asking you to be sympathetic and supportive (and not mean spirited) of those who are trying very hard to pass their Bronze tests. They worked very hard and have put in a lot of time, effort, personal sacrifice, and have dealt with a lot of issues outside of the rink, (family death, long unemployments, etc.) for it like you have. Be there as encouraging, caring and helpful (w/o being imposing of course) a friend as you possibly can to help them towards the goals that you've already accomplished. And if you can't be that person, do them a favor and let them know "I'm sorry! I can't be sympathetic towards your Pre-Bronzers" and step away from them. Leave them alone!

I'll close (for now :twisted: ) by saying being at Adult Nationals IS very special! And no matter what level you are skating at, NO ONE can take away the accomplishments you have earned being at AN. NO ONE!!! And THAT is what matters in the end!

Everyone is being supportive of people working hard! No one's said you're not. To extend my marathon analogy, I'm supportive of my sister's running, but I'm not going to petition the Olympic committee to allow her to represent the U.S. in Beijing. Even if she is training while getting a master's, and wasn't a runner as a child, that's neither here nor there.

And it doesn't matter the family death, long unemployments, cost, pregnancy, etc. That shouldn't factor into testing or eligibility any more than someone's job schedule or financial ability. That's life, and if life keeps you from testing Bronze and going to Nationals in 2007, or qualifying for a marathon, or testing your black belt, *nothing* has taken away the accomplishments you already have.

But it does affect the need for the USFSA to be involved (and it may make it less special if 'able to go to Adult Nationals' essentially means 'finished learn to skate'; it's not like it gets a lot of respect from the standard track anyway), and what you want is a big adult skating festival, that sounds like a lot of fun, but not something the national governing body needs to worry about.

[sunshinepointe]

I competed once at an ISI event and I'll probably never compete again but I wanted to address one thing -

Those of you questioning "where do you draw the line" - allowing pre-pre-bronze, or pre-silver or pre anything ....those categories of adult skaters don't exist. Pre-bronze skaters DO exist. Discussing the allowance of fictitious USFS adult skate categories is nonsense and holds no weight in the debate as far as I'm concerned. Pre-bronze skaters work just as hard training for competitions and if they have the courage to go to Nationals so I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed. Not enough ice time? So they add an extra day, or find a way to work it out. Almost anything can be worked out if given enough notice, which at this point they have - my guess is that hardly anyone would even notice the addition of pre-bronze events in terms of scheduling if it's addressed early enough.

Lastly, would adding in pre-bronze skaters REALLY impact the integrity of the event? If so, I'm curious to know how? Aren't we all skaters, no matter the level? It's a national competition, I get that - but after its all said and done it's an adult national competition and from my understanding the majority of the people that go to nationals do so to have fun anyway and the atmosphere is light and friendly while still remaining competitive. If nothing else its a good experience for pre-bronze skaters that want to compete at higher levels as well where the pressure is even greater.

Maybe I don't understand because I've never gone to nationals, or because I've never tested...it just seems like the people against pre-bronze skaters being added to fold are more advanced skaters who might be a teeeeeeeny bit put off that no such event was there when they were skating at that level. I might take some flack for saying it, but just callin it like I see it.

:giveup:

[LoopLoop]

While I have advocated the "PB at AN implies a tougher PB free test" philosophy, crayon is correct here. And then what happens? Do we have a PRE-pre-Bronze level? Would those skaters subsequently clamor to be included in AN? Where does it stop?

what I'm suggesting is...you don't! You don't use that "code"! You give them the chance to go ahead and do a program at Adult Nationals too and get that experience in doing a program in front of a large crowd and manage it thru there.

Jazz, this implies that you're suggesting that no-test adults be included in AN too. Am I interpreting correctly?

[jazzpants]

Jazz, this implies that you're suggesting that no-test adults be included in AN too. Am I interpreting correctly?Not necessarily. We could have one standard... and that's that they'd be members of the USFSA (in good standing) and they've at least tested and passed one adult moves and FS skate level. But I also am open to combining no-test with Adult Pre-Bronze FS if even with adding on pre-Bronze FS we don't get the numbers attending AN. We get plenty of no-test skaters around here that actually skates better than some of the Pre-Bronzers here, actually....

[Debbie S]

I also wanted to second beachbabe. I started at 24, and I had the freestyle pre-Bronze down very quickly, in about 5 months. Moves took me a bit longer, but it seems weird to think that 'qualified for Nationals' means 'took group lessons.'

I realize pre-Bronze competitiveness is a lot higher, but to *qualify* by taking the test doesn't really require much.Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but from your previous posts on this thread, it sounds like you've never tested. Assuming that's true, I don't know how you can make assumptions about what taking the test entails. Your coach may have told you your moves are passing, but until you actually go through the testing process, I don't think you can say with certainty how easy it is to pass a particular test. My coach has been coaching for 30 years and thought my Bronze moves were passing level when I tested, and she couldn't believe how harsh the judges were (I'm from dcden's neck of the woods).

Most adults at AN started out in group lessons, then moved on to private coaches when they decided they wanted to test and/or compete. If you want to pass Pre-Bronze MIF and FS, you need to do a whole lot more than take group lessons.

I didn't realize we had judges doing both Olympics/Worlds and AN's. Any idea who they were? I'd like to see if they were on my panel.There's no need for sarcasm. I know of at least one nat'l judge from my area that judged at AN and went to Worlds (it was in an article on Kimmie). He did not judge at Worlds - I assumed judges have meetings or seminars or something there, even if they're not judging...or maybe he just went as a spectator. I imagine other judges went to Worlds and/or Olys if not for a judging reason than b/c they are skating fans and wanted to watch the comp. Having AN so soon after a major event may have had an effect - after all, judges are volunteers with lives outside of skating. That's why I asked if there had been a similar issue last year when AN was later.

[skaternum]

Maybe I don't understand because I've never gone to nationals, or because I've never tested...it just seems like the people against pre-bronze skaters being added to fold are more advanced skaters who might be a teeeeeeeny bit put off that no such event was there when they were skating at that level. I might take some flack for saying it, but just callin it like I see it.
Here's your flack. You have no idea what you're talking about. That level didn't even exist when I started competing. But thanks for joining in the efforts to discredit the opposition by calling us names or questioning our motives. :roll:

[crayonskater]

I haven't tested, true. (I was talking about the program components, though, not the moves, and Pre-Bronze program components were taught in group lessons.) I trust my coach, and I know roughly how long it took me to get there. I'm not saying it's not an accomplishment, because I'm proud of how far I've come; I'm just saying that it's an encouragement test by the USFSA's requirements and one that doesn't even require a program. And if we change pre-Bronze so it has a program, there will probably have to be introduced another encouragement test.

sunshine, I get your point, but I wasn't trying to make some slippery slope argument. No matter if we decide that pre-Bronze should get in, there's always going to be a large, active adult community that would be interested in the camaraderie and the fun but not yet qualified. My point was simply that the question is really the role of Adult Nationals in adult skating, not anything specific to pre-Bronze.

Maybe the Bronze test needs to be re-evaluated if there's a large group of people stuck on it for 5-6 years.

[Careygram]

Okay, here goes FWIW.

I've been skating for 14 years, prior to any established levels, tests, whatever. Adults were complaining that things were too easy, people were "sandbagging" and that we weren't being taken seriuosly. They asked for levels, tests and the works, to MODEL after the standard track. Okay, so it happened. I look at standard track and I see that Novice qualifiers and above go to nationals, Intermediate qualifiers and above go to Junior Nationals. PERHAPS, to model better, we have sectionals for qualifying Pre-Bronze through Masters, the we hold two "nationals", one for Silver qualifiers and below, one for Masters and above, or some such other cut off. There will never be a way to please all involved as I've seen the shift over 14 years. We want to be treated like "seriuos" skaters and now we are. I do realize that we're adults and it's a hobby, not a career and why be exclusive because the goal is for everyone to have fun and be able to participate in the experience. Were I a national level JUDGE on the otherhand, sitting in a freezing rink for hours........ I don't know. I know the argument is simply for it to be held at the national level competition and that other than gold and masters its an open competition. I'm kind on the fence at that. I can see both sides of the argument, however, I say if we asked to be treated seriuosly, then we get to abide to the model like the amateur skaters. And that means that perhaps pre-bronze, bronze and silver should qualify at sectionals and maybe silver and gold get one nationals, bronze and pre-bronze get another.

Helmet is on, fire away....8O

[Careygram]

Ooops, I meant Intermediate qualifiers and BELOW go to "junior" nationals...to prevent confusion...:roll:

[gr8sk8rVA]

Maybe the Bronze test needs to be re-evaluated if there's a large group of people stuck on it for 5-6 years.That's an interesting suggestion. But I suspect that more people have passed than failed this test. Maybe it just means that folks should try harder to pass?

[crayonskater]

Nah, I think people ARE trying really hard. They're either reaching their physical limitations, or, more likely, busy with the rest of their lives.

Maybe the pre-Bronzers could take over a local or an ISI National and treat it like Adult Nationals. It would provide the camraderie, but more importantly, it would be more persuasive to the USFSA to point out that pre-Bronze skaters a) are interested, b) are competing in serious numbers and c) are of similar skill to be grouped in a class of their own at Nationals.

[sk8pics]

You know, I think this has largely been an interesting and informative discussion, and I appreciate the thought that so many people have put into this.

But can we please stop the name-calling or sarcasm (yes, there's just been a little so far, but I would hate to see us deteriorate) and can people PLEASE stop saying that pre-bronze skaters should "try harder" to pass their bronze tests? :frus: :frus: Or saying, well, I passed so why can't you?? :frus: I really doubt anyone is not trying to the best of their abilities as they see them... people have all kinds of circumstances in their lives, and outsiders don't know all of their personal issues.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of course.

[FrankR]

You know, I think this has largely been an interesting and informative discussion, and I appreciate the thought that so many people have put into this.

But can we please stop the name-calling or sarcasm (yes, there's just been a little so far, but I would hate to see us deteriorate) and can people PLEASE stop saying that pre-bronze skaters should "try harder" to pass their bronze tests? :frus: :frus: Or saying, well, I passed so why can't you?? :frus: I really doubt anyone is not trying to the best of their abilities as they see them... people have all kinds of circumstances in their lives, and outsiders don't know all of their personal issues.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of course.

Precisely! People, it's a petition not the Magna Carta!! :lol: :lol:

In the end, the most that will happen is that the petition will get a bunch of signatures and it'll go the USFSA and they'll discuss it. What's the harm in that?

[dcden]

I am asking you to be sympathetic and supportive (and not mean spirited) of those who are trying very hard to pass their Bronze tests.
I hope you know that I've tried to do this by offering suggestions on how to make this proposal more palatable. Again, as I've said ad nauseam by now, the numbers argument appears IMO to be the strongest one, so if I were you I'd be marshalling up that supporting data while also taking signatures for the petition. If it is decided that AN needs 50 or so more starts to maintain profitability and you have those 50 skaters ready to go that aren't coming from other skating disciplines, few would be able to argue with you. And I've also made my point about changes to the PB free test, so I won't repeat them here.


There's no need for sarcasm. I know of at least one nat'l judge from my area that judged at AN and went to Worlds.
Um, I wasn't being sarcastic. I'd genuinely like to know if there were judges officiating at AN and either Olympics or Worlds, so I could check to see if they were on my panel for my event. Frankly I thought that the pool of judges we use to send officials to Olympics/Worlds was different than the pool we pick for AN, but I'm admittedly not that familiar with the judging certifications. Since we'd only send a few judges to Olympics or Worlds, I'd hate to think that the rest of the judges in the country would want to skip competitions to watch or attend Olympics/Worlds or otherwise check out mentally after Olys/Worlds were over and thus not want to come to AN. But, that's a side discussion and not really relevant to the PB issue. Still I thought it would not hurt to ask (in case a Joe Inman type person had been on my panel). Let's all take a deep breath here...


Precisely! People, it's a petition not the Magna Carta!! In the end, the most that will happen is that the petition will get a bunch of signatures and it'll go the USFSA and they'll discuss it. What's the harm in that?
LOL... fair enough... I can't beat this horse any deader anyway...

[Isk8NYC]

LOL... fair enough... I can't beat this horse any deader anyway... Shhh. Saffy might hear you.

[jazzpants]

Maybe the Bronze test needs to be re-evaluated if there's a large group of people stuck on it for 5-6 years.
Actually, cecealias tried to put together an informal poll that address that very same question. Unfortunately, the question of the poll got misinterpreted... (Understandably though... there are skaters out there who aren't even passing Pre-Bronze Moves and FS yet...)

http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=20313

You could take over a local or an ISI National and treat it like Adult Nationals. It would provide the camraderie, but more importantly, it would be more persuasive to the USFSA to point out that pre-Bronze skaters a) are interested, b) are competing in serious numbers and c) are of similar skill to be grouped in a class of their own at Nationals.I don't know about the other Pre-Bronzers but for me, I have that -- what Skate San Francisco (and recently Adult Sectionals) are for! My rink has a huge percentage of adult skaters and MANY of the adult skaters at my rink... and who am I to want to feel left out of the fun and all... ;) But for some Pre-Bronzers I know, they often ARE the only adult skater at their local comp. For them to do that type of competition would require a Herculean effort.

FrankR... LOVE LOVE LOVE your response!!! YES!!! This is NOT the Magna Carta!!! :lol: :lol:

This is a petition!!! It's just a bunch of signatures that will go to the adult skating committee to show that there's support for this issue. Someone else will be tasked to write the proposal. Since I'm not a member of the adult skating committee (HOW do you become a member anyway???) it's up to the powers that be to determine how they're going to do this, not the Pre-Bronze skaters!!!

And skaternum, I can only speak for myself (not Terri C or the other Pre-Bronze skaters) on this one. When I made that comment about being supportive of Pre-Bronze skaters, I did not have you specifically in mind...

I knew when this petition went out, there was going to be strong opposition to this issue and it was going to be very vocal. You guys are definitely entitled to your opinion, just as we are to ours! I personally don't take your opposition a slam against us at all. It's certainly no skin off my nose! Which is why I said in one of my post.... ...if you don't support the petition, DON'T SIGN THE PETITION!!! It's as simple as that!!!

As far as I'm concerned, we are still buds after all this is said and done!!! And when we do finally meet at a comp (God knows when!), we have havoc to wreak... :twisted: :lol:

[dcden]

Shhh. Saffy might hear you.
Sorry for being slow, but I don't get it!! Who's Saffy?

[NoVa Sk8r]

Um, I wasn't being sarcastic. I'd genuinely like to know if there were judges officiating at AN and either Olympics or Worlds, so I could check to see if they were on my panel for my event. Frankly I thought that the pool of judges we use to send officials to Olympics/Worlds was different than the pool we pick for AN, but I'm admittedly not that familiar with the judging certifications. ... Still I thought it would not hurt to ask (in case a Joe Inman type person had been on my panel). Let's all take a deep breath here...AFAIK, Barbara Holland (she wears those large, tinted glasses) and Morry Stillwell--both on your panel--are high-ranking, if not international, judges.

[dcden]

Thanks NoVa... didn't know that about Barbara Holland. I'm sure she's judged me in the past so now I'm curious to know how she's judged me historically... hmm...

[NoVa Sk8r]

Thanks NoVa... didn't know that about Barbara Holland. I'm sure she's judged me in the past so now I'm curious to know how she's judged me historically... hmm...Barbara has judged a few times at the Mountain Cup. Your AN pairs lifting partner (:lol: ) was judged by her in figures at that event. She was not very kind!

[LoopLoop]

I wasn't around in the early days of adult skating (my first group lessons were in 1998), so I don't have a whole lot of historical knowledge. Can some of those who have been participating longer (flo, daisies, others) give a brief outline of the major changes which have taken place, as well as the rationales behind them (i.e., were they changes suggested by the adults or by USFS...)? Not necessarily in extensive detail, but just an outline might be helpful.

[dcden]

Your AN pairs lifting partner (:lol: )
HAHA! Now don't start promoting us a bona fide pair... I'm not about to be thrown ala Zhang.

[NoVa Sk8r]

Actually, all of the judges at AN are at least Senior National Judges.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/2006ISUofficials.pdf

John Cole has his intl appt (he might be the only one with a current ISU judging appt).

Ida Tateoka was once an Olympic (1984?) and World judge and is a big political power in the sport. Other judges in the past have been very high up there (like Lucy Brennan and Anne Gherli), but they have passed the forced retirement age by ISU.

As someone pointed out this is the problem with ANs: You have to be a Senior National Judge, but most of those types want to judge REAL sectionals and REAL nationals or REAL internationals--anything but the adult stuff. So you end up with retired judges who honestly probably have nothing better to do AND ... they judge the way they used to 30 years ago.

The proposal to allow junior competition judges to judge the open events is on the table and will likely pass at GC.

[dcden]

The proposal to allow junior competition judges to judge the open events is on the table and will likely pass at GC.

Now I see why I was confused... I remember the AC discussing this a few years ago so I assumed it had already passed, and I thought the proposal was for qualifying events too, thus I thought that there wouldn't be very many international judges at AN, if any. I stand corrected. (You got the look, you got the hook, sho nuf do be cookin'...)

[FrankR]

Sorry for being slow, but I don't get it!! Who's Saffy?

Yeah, what he said! Who's Saffy?

[jazzpants]

Sorry for being slow, but I don't get it!! Who's Saffy?
Yeah, what he said! Who's Saffy?TashaKat's horse, who occasionally post on the Patsy's Parlor on the Non-Skating Discussion. Saffy refers to TashaKat as "Mommy."

She (Saffy) is quite a character, wouldn't you say, ISk8NYC! :lol:

[Mrs Redboots]

As someone pointed out this is the problem with ANs: You have to be a Senior National Judge, but most of those types want to judge REAL sectionals and REAL nationals or REAL internationals--anything but the adult stuff. So you end up with retired judges who honestly probably have nothing better to do AND ... they judge the way they used to 30 years ago.
One of the problems seems to me that you need to have so many judges in your events - here in the UK, we have panels of 3 or 5 judges depending on how many skaters there are in the particular class; even at our regular Nationals we had no more than 5 judges. One of whom, incidentally, was judging Senior Nationals one weekend, and the following weekend was judging at our local club's Winter Festival!

Most of the judges I know really enjoy judging adult skaters - one said to me that she loved the way we had such fun out there! Whether that made up for having to judge 14 mediocre Canasta Tangos followed by 14 even more mediocre Dutch Waltzes, I'm not sure.... but two of our judges (themselves still participant Masters skaters) were leading lights in the campaign to get our British Adult Championships, and, indeed, organised the first two themselves (and competed in the third!).

Mind you, having said that, it stands to reason that I would know the judges who like judging adults! But we have had international-level judges at Oberstdorf last year, and at the Mountain Cup this year.... one of whom, at least, is happy enough to judge baby-tests at local rinks, too! He passed our Level 1 free dance, anyway..... just.....

[Isk8NYC]

TashaKat's horse, who occasionally post on the Patsy's Parlor on the Non-Skating Discussion. Saffy refers to TashaKat as "Mommy." She (Saffy) is quite a character, wouldn't you say, ISk8NYC! :lol: With abundant "horse sense" and a great sense of humor, to boot! Saffy (http://www.skatingforums.com/member.php?u=7005) is probably sleeping in her stable now. Jazzpants - don't start the Mr. Ed theme song again. Please? The 45-minute trip home is unbearable.

Back on topic: how many Pre-Bronze skaters compete in any competitions? That's a critical number to have a handle on before your petition is reviewed. Skating in a competition in front of a crowd is different from skating for a test in front of a handful of judges. (Shows are a different beast since you can be entertaining without challenging yourself skating-wise.)

If the only time you skate a program is before/during the test, you're bound to be nervous. If you've overcome the pre-competition butterflies, it helps build your confidence going forward. Confidence before a test is a very good thing to have.

[daisies]

Well, no; the pre-bronze test does not require "mastery." It requires an elementary sense of control and edges. To quote the judges' sheet (http://www.usfsa.org/content/JP_MF-Adult%20Pre%20Bronze.pdf): "The purpose of this test is to encourage beginning adult skaters to learn the fundamentals of ice skating. No great
deal of technical ability, carriage or flow is expected. Candidates must show knowledge of the steps, fairly good edges and some evidence of good form."

I have found that when people do not pass a test, they say that the judges were looking for perfection or mastery. Nonsense. When I finally passed my silver moves, they were far from great or mastered; they were "passable." Please don't throw in the term "mastered" just because you or someone else took a while to pass. That demeans the judging process IMHO and, in a way, detracts from your pre-bronze AN argument.
Nova, that was very well said. As a judge, I thank you.

I do like the idea that Adult Nationals is different from other available adult events. It is and should be something to work for. If the national judges which are required for a national event complain about the level of skating at current nationals, adding pre-bronze will only make it worse. No offense to anyone - I just believe there should be a minimum level, bronze at least, to compete at AN.
Once again, flo, I agree with you. You and I are on the same page!

Feel free to substitute another word if mastery offends you, but the fact is, the judges do want to see that you've achieved a level of competency on the moves at the current test level before they'll let go on to the next level - that's the point of testing. I imagine it's difficult to know what quality of skating is expected on Pre-Bronze or Bronze MIF or how hard someone had to work to get those moves to a passing standard if you didn't take those tests and had firsthand experience with the way those moves are judged.
Are you a judge? I am not asking that to be sarcastic, I truly want to know.

As one myself, I believe there is big difference between an encouragement test -- which pre-Bronze and pre-Pre are -- and the other tests in terms of what I am looking for. As has been stated, that is precisely the reason these tests are judged pass/retry and not on a passing average.

Well, isn't that a problem with the judges and USFSA, and not the skaters? It sounds like there need to be some changes made to how the judges view adult skating, through seminars or other avenues.
I don't think a seminar can change someone's mind. Maybe if they conducted lobotomies at the seminars.... :)

Either way, from what I was told at the competition, this year's shortage of judges had nothing to do with them not wanting to be there or their views on adult skating. Judges are selected for and commit to the event months ahead of time, as do alternates. Several health-related incidents occurred -- one judge had a heart attack -- and the selected alternates were used to fill. Unfortunately, there weren't enough alternates to cover.

I am asking you to be sympathetic and supportive (and not mean spirited) of those who are trying very hard to pass their Bronze tests.
Who's been mean-spirited about skaters trying to pass their Bronze? I thought this thread is about allowing pre-Bronze at AN, not about how hard it is to pass the Bronze test.

I think you and TerriC are confusing some things. I cannot speak for everyone who opposes Pre-Bronze at Adult Nationals (hereafter referred to as PBatAN), but I can say that I AM supportive of pre-bronzers trying to pass their tests. I've always tried to be encouraging to you guys and pre-bronzers at my rinks. That is in NO WAY related to my feelings about PBatAN. You guys seem to be interpreting our lack of support for a concept as lack of support for people. Nothing could be further from the truth.
EXACTLY!!!!!

[jazzpants]

With abundant "horse sense" and a great sense of humor, to boot! Saffy (http://www.skatingforums.com/member.php?u=7005) is probably sleeping in her stable now. Jazzpants - don't start the Mr. Ed theme song again. Please? The 45-minute trip home is unbearable.:lol: :twisted: :lol: :twisted: :lol: (Sorry, ISk8NYC!!!)

Back on topic: how many Pre-Bronze skaters compete in any competitions? That's a critical number to have a handle on before your petition is reviewed. Skating in a competition in front of a crowd is different from skating for a test in front of a handful of judges. (Shows are a different beast since you can be entertaining without challenging yourself skating-wise.)

If the only time you skate a program is before/during the test, you're bound to be nervous. If you've overcome the pre-competition butterflies, it helps build your confidence going forward. Confidence before a test is a very good thing to have.Oh, that's easy! All they have to do is to look at the participants from Sectionals every year.

[Isk8NYC]

Oh, that's easy! All they have to do is to look at the participants from Sectionals every year.There's a focus group to study, then. A survey to determine their interest would be useful. The petition group might also want to categorize some of their results along the lines of the skater's levels, etc.

[manleywoman]

FWIW, the judges I've spoken to love judging at Adult Nationals.

[jazzpants]

I think you and TerriC are confusing some things. I cannot speak for everyone who opposes Pre-Bronze at Adult Nationals (hereafter referred to as PBatAN), but I can say that I AM supportive of pre-bronzers trying to pass their tests. I've always tried to be encouraging to you guys and pre-bronzers at my rinks. That is in NO WAY related to my feelings about PBatAN. You guys seem to be interpreting our lack of support for a concept as lack of support for people. Nothing could be further from the truth.

EXACTLY!!!!!Again, I would like to remind you guys... please do NOT mix me and Terri into the mix! I have MY OWN opinions as to who I think is mean spirited and who's not. Terri has hers and if she feels that she's being attacked, she has every right to say so. But only she can speak for herself.


Again, if you read further on, I wrote that I know some people are going to disagree with our cause going into this. And they're entitled to their opinion and cause, just as we are entitled to our opinion and our cause too! (skaternum made a great analogy about it likened to the pro-choice/pro-life thing. This is exactly that sort of thing!)

I thought this thread is about allowing pre-Bronze at AN, not about how hard it is to pass the Bronze test.All topics are always going to go off on some tangent. It's the nature of the beast. :lol: The other tangent this thread went off on was that we were talk about getting enough judges for AN, which of course, goes off on a tangent about which judge is judging which event. And God knows how we dragged Saffy into this! :roll: :lol: :P

That's why I kept saying "This is a petition! If you don't support it, DON'T SIGN IT!!! It's as simple as that!!!" No skin off my nose if you don't support it. JUST DON'T SIGN IT and walk away!!! (If you DO support it though, please sign it, of course!!!) :P

[rlichtefeld]

:lol: :twisted: :lol: :twisted: :lol: (Sorry, ISk8NYC!!!)

Oh, that's easy! All they have to do is to look at the participants from Sectionals every year.

Here's the numbers for this year.

Easterns:
http://www.centralcarolinasc.com/EventList_2006AES.aspx

PB Ladies II&III - 3
PB Ladies IV - 2
PB Men IV - 1

Mids:
http://www.strongsvilleskating.com/Adult_Schedule.pdf

PB Ladies III/IV/V - 6
PB Pairs - 2

Pacifics:
http://www.smisc.org/results.html

PB Ladies I&II - 3
PB Ladies III - 4
PB Men III - 2



And, Peach Classic 2005
http://www.gafsc.org/peachclassic/2005/results.htm

PB Ladies II - 2
PB Ladies III - 5

Halloween Classic 2005
http://iceworkssc.org/HalloweenClassic/hc2005a.html

PB Ladies - 5
PB Men - 2


Rob

[Debbie S]

Are you a judge? I am not asking that to be sarcastic, I truly want to know.

As one myself, I believe there is big difference between an encouragement test -- which pre-Bronze and pre-Pre are -- and the other tests in terms of what I am looking for. As has been stated, that is precisely the reason these tests are judged pass/retry and not on a passing average.No, I'm not a judge. I did, however, test Pre-Bronze MIF (the version with the alt 3's) and Pre-Bronze FS. Oh, and in case you missed my earlier post, I passed them the first time, so this is not about being bitter over a retry, as NoVa incorrectly assumed. When I was working on the test, my coach told me that, based on what she'd seen and heard about the judging of adult MIF tests and Pre-Bronze in particular, the judges would probably apply the Preliminary standard rather than the Pre-Preliminary standard, and that it was really not looked at as an encouragement test, even though it was pass/retry. (remember, Pre-Bronze MIF at this point had 2 Prelim moves - crossover figure 8's and alt 3's)

Based on the comments I got on the test form, and based on the Pre-Prelim and Prelim MIF tests I've seen and heard details of, I would say that my coach was probably correct. I would also bet that the retry rate of Pre-Bronze MIF (the version w/ the alt 3's) was quite a bit higher than the retry rate of Pre-Prelim MIF. Yes, I know that was the basis for getting the alt 3's replaced on the test, and I know this thread is not about MIF so I don't want to get too far off-topic.

[beachbabe]

I think there is a huge difference between starting to skate at 14 and starting as an adult. I am only 25, but I don't expect to test Pre-Bronze for at least a year, possibly even longer because of moves. I am just now starting lessons (I was put in Basic 4 for my first ever class on evaluation by the skate coordinator). Another woman in my class is 38. She has been skating for a year. She goes to the rink for 2 hours every Friday and takes a 30 minute class each Wednesday. She told me it took her 2-6 week sessions to pass Basic 1, another 6-week session for Basic 2, and 3 6-week session for Basic 3. She is starting on her second Basic 4 session now. Granted, she is only making it to the rink twice a week, but when you work full time and have a family to take care of, sometimes thats the best you can do. But the learning curve is very different. She only got through Basic 1 in the amount of time you said it took you to get the Pre-Bronze elements.




Well, you don't really have a valid example here. The woman you are talking about is getting about 2.5 hrs total skating per week. How you can you expect to have any progress at that rate. I have skated for about 2.5 yrs now and i am working towards my juvenile test which I could probably pass now but I don't want to be forced to compete up since i don't have a double axel..which is necessary to be competetive at that level. I skate 4 times a week and get about 12 hrs of skating per week overall. And about 45min of that is lesson time. That is 5x more than your example...so of course i would be getting more progress.

And don't tell me adults have more time constraints. I have to wake up at 4:30 4 days a week so i can get to my freestyle session and still be on time for school. I get out at about 3, at which point i have either tennis or track practice until 4:30. I get home and eat and am at my volunteer job for required hours at the hospital by 5, or if i'm not vulunteering that day i have to work at my mom's yoga studio. I'm home at about 7 at which point I have to get to the rink. i get home at about 9 and i still have a ton of homework to do b/c i am in IB classes which gve you the biggest workload. I am lucky to get 5 hrs of sleep on a good day. So don't even bring up adults having to deal with work...don't even

[Hannahclear]

The woman you are talking about is getting about 2.5 hrs total skating per week. How you can you expect to have any progress at that rate.

Excuse me? I skate about 2.5 hours per week and I make plenty of progress, thank you very much.

Adults, you see, pay their own bills and plenty of us can't *afford* to skate every day, like you do.

:roll:

[dcden]

Okay, we're on another tangent, but here goes...
Well, you don't really have a valid example here. The woman you are talking about is getting about 2.5 hrs total skating per week. How you can you expect to have any progress at that rate. ... I skate 4 times a week and get about 12 hrs of skating per week overall. And about 45min of that is lesson time. That is 5x more than your example...so of course i would be getting more progress.
Well part of it is the added time you spend on skating and part of it is the age differential. I think re the 2.5 hours a week, I think it would be better spent doing a half-hour every weekday morning than two hours one day and 1/2 hour another day. So maybe it's not the number of hours but the spread of hours over the week, but that's just a guess... I don't know that particular skater's situation


And don't tell me adults have more time constraints. I have to wake up at 4:30 4 days a week so i can get to my freestyle session and still be on time for school. I get out at about 3, at which point i have either tennis or track practice until 4:30. I get home and eat and am at my volunteer job for required hours at the hospital by 5, or if i'm not vulunteering that day i have to work at my mom's yoga studio. I'm home at about 7 at which point I have to get to the rink. i get home at about 9 and i still have a ton of homework to do b/c i am in IB classes which gve you the biggest workload. I am lucky to get 5 hrs of sleep on a good day. So don't even bring up adults having to deal with work...don't even
beachbabe, clearly you are not a typical teenager with all that you have going on in your life, so I don't think anyone will say to you that they have too many time constraints. However, I think when people are talking about adults vs. kids and the time they have to spend towards skating, they're talking in general. That is, in general most kids have more time to put into skating than most adults, and most adults have more problems fitting skating around work obligations than most kids. Granted there are exceptions... you seem to be one and trust me there are exceptions among adults as well. Those adults who have the time/energy/resources to spend >10 hours/week skating, more power to ya.

And beachbabe, while your life now may seem a little crazy and overbooked, enjoy it now because life will throw many more obstacles your way into adulthood. The way you are going now, though, you seem to be prepared to handle it.

OK, back on topic...

[daisies]

Excuse me? I skate about 2.5 hours per week and I make plenty of progress, thank you very much.

Adults, you see, pay their own bills and plenty of us can't *afford* to skate every day, like you do.

:roll:
No kidding. Besides, everyone is different and progresses at a different rate. I typically skate even less than 2.5 hours a week -- probably an average of about 90 minutes to 2 hours -- and I think I do OK.

[beachbabe]

Excuse me? I skate about 2.5 hours per week and I make plenty of progress, thank you very much.

Adults, you see, pay their own bills and plenty of us can't *afford* to skate every day, like you do.

:roll:

i guess it came out sounding a little rude, but thats not the way i meant it. The person i was replying to was amost comparing my skating with the 38 year old woman who has been skating for 1 year. i was just trying to say that its not a very valid comparison, because her struggling through the basic group lessons is not so much showing some physical disadvantage as opposed to me, but jsut showing that she skates less than me. So its pretty much impossible to compare what this womans progress may have been skating on my scedule with my coach for the same number of hours as me.

I was not trying to insult anyone that skates less than me, so i'm sorry if it came out that way:halo:

[Mercedeslove]

I signed it. I'm not pre-bronze or even bronze, but I figured if I was I would love support, so I am backing, encouraging, and supporting those pre-bronzers.

After all I would like to skate at AN one day.

[Terri C]

After the last couple of days and the several postings on this issue, this is my final thought.
We (Jazzpants, Debbie S, myself and a few others) put this petition together to get support for a idea that would help increase the numbers at AN. It has been said that the numbers have been on a constant decline since 2002, whether it's the economy, the moves requirement , life in general ( why I didn't take Bronze moves for the first time until last week) whatever it is we really don't have one collective answer.

All we got was a lot of raising Cain and shouting that this is Nationals and that Pre Bronze skaters do not have the technical ability to skate at Nationals. Well for those of you that want a "true" Nationals, here is my idea:
Make AN all qualifying. All skaters from Pre Bronze to Masters, all disciplines, etc would have to qualify through Sectionals. From what I've heard this has already been talked about and received with just as much objection as this same issue that we've discussed for the last couple of days, but hey, you want it, you may get it someday.
What that would do is bring some of the best adult skating that this country has to offer.

[doubletoe]

Okay folks, this is really SAD! I woke up this morning thinking about this thread! Aaaaaaghhh!!! :frus: ROFL!

But here's what crystalized in my mind: The truth is that I actually don't care who gets to participate in Adult Nationals as long as the principle is applied consistently. We should have a consistent underlying philosophy that governs who gets to skate at Adult Nationals, and I figure we have two options to choose from:

OPTION #1: ALL-QUALIFYING ADULT NATIONALS

Objective: To stay true to the "National Competition" concept and get the maximum amount of respect for adult skaters by having Adult Nationals mirror standard track Nationals. You have to earn the right to compete at Nationals.

What it Looks Like: Only those in the top 4 from each event at each Sectionals competition get to compete at Nationals, whether they are Gold II, Bronze IV or anything in-between. The Adult track age classes and classifications (Bronze, Silver, etc.) would be the only major deviation from standard track Nationals, since age considerations are the reason the Adult track exists to begin with. Obviously, a major problem would be the fact that attendance wouldn't be high enough for it to pay for itself, so it would have to be subsidized somehow.

OPTION #2: ALL-INCLUSIVE ADULT NATIONALS

Objective: To give adult skaters a large enough field of competitors that they actually get a similar experience as all the kids at the local competitions (i.e., the experience of having to skate qualifying rounds and really fight for a podium spot).

What it Looks Like: Just like it is now, except that the open events that currently make up the majority of AN are expanded a bit so that we don't deny this experience to just one little group of adult skaters (Pre-Bronze). Everyone who has joined USFS and started the testing process would be welcome to compete. That includes Pre-Bronze and, sure, if people are having trouble passing the Pre-Bronze test, why not allow no-testers to compete in the Pre-Bronze group as well.

I think anyone who participates in a non-championship event at AN is applying a double standard if they say one group of adult skaters should be kept out of Adult Nationals because we want to mirror standard track Nationals.

[Terri C]

Doubletoe,
You and I had the same idea at about the same time!!

[doubletoe]

Doubletoe,
You and I had the same idea at about the same time!!

No, I had mine at 5:30 this morning in the shower, heh heh. I just forgot to post until now! :P

[daisies]

So basically ... all or nothing at all.

Alrighty then.

[doubletoe]

So basically ... all or nothing at all.

Alrighty then.

Well, my point was just to be consistent in philosophy, whichever one it is, KWIM?

[daisies]

Well, my point was just to be consistent in philosophy, whichever one it is, KWIM?
Not really! LOL. Why only two philosophies?

I thought we established that no one meant mirroring standard track. Maybe not. I know I said there needs to be a "standard," but I didn't mean anything about doing what standard nationals does. That's just me though.

[sexysk8er]

I have been reading the discussion on the Pre-Bronze skaters.
What do you all think about allowing Pre-Bronze skaters to enter the Bronze event?

They allow this at the ISU Adult Open hel din Germany this year. It just seems that AN is getting very big and adding 8 more events may be very cumbersome for the organizers.:)

[sk8er1964]

Not really! LOL. Why only two philosophies?

I thought we established that no one meant mirroring standard track. Maybe not. I know I said there needs to be a "standard," but I didn't mean anything about doing what standard nationals does. That's just me though.

I think several folks were saying just that. Standard track doesn't allow below Juv at a national level, so we shouldn't allow pre-bronze. As I said before, as a rhetorical statement, if we mirror standard track, then AN should only be championship gold, championship masters, championship dance, and championship (if they approve it) pairs. Pretty boring, IMO.

Really....what's the big deal about allowing pre-bronze? I've heard elitist arguments -- they haven't passed such-and-such test so they shouldn't be allowed. Well, I can apply that to bronze freestyle, and silver freestyle - both of which are lower test standards than standard juvenile freestyle.

Look, I would love to win the championship gold event at AN. Could it happen? Maybe, maybe not. I'd love to win the open Gold III event at AN. Could it happen? Maybe, maybe not. Jazzpants would love to win the open Pre-Bronze III (? ;)) event at AN. I say let her try.

[Figureskates]

I am going to speak from a purely selfish and realistic point of view.

I would like to see pre-Bronze at AN. Why?

Because at 60 years of age with a rebuilt left knee and arthritis in some of my joints, I have to be realistic of how far I can go. Bronze? Maybe but it may be a stretch since I know it may take another year or two and frankly, I am not getting any younger. At least having the opportunity to compete in AN in pre-Bronze, I can at least say I competed at AN in Pre-Bronze (V) to enjoy the thrill of it before being relagated to a nursing home somewhere sucking strained beets through a straw and watching Soap Operas all day in the TV room...

[sk8pics]

Just to add a couple more numbers to what Rob had posted...

Skate Wilmington 2005 Pre-bronze Ladies --- 7

2005 New Year's Invitational Pre-Bronze Ladies I -- 3
Pre-Bronze Ladies II -- 4
Pre-Bronze Ladies III/IV -- 5

[crayonskater]

If Nationals were to be done all with qualifying through Sectionals, etc., would there be enough skaters in each subgrouping to make it worthwhile?

Bronze I had what, 10 competitors? Would they have had as many if they needed to attend a qualifying competition first, with all the attendant expense that would include? I think the idea's great in theory, but I fear that in the least-crowded age ranges, it would become just a money waster. ("There's only 9 people at my level thinking of going to AN, because in order to go, we had to go to Sectionals first, and we have work/kids/life/etc. But all nine of us have to go to Sectionals to qualify.")

Otherwise, qualifying neatly takes care of the no-program problem with the pre-Bronze test.

[jazzpants]

I have been reading the discussion on the Pre-Bronze skaters.
What do you all think about allowing Pre-Bronze skaters to enter the Bronze event?

They allow this at the ISU Adult Open hel din Germany this year. It just seems that AN is getting very big and adding 8 more events may be very cumbersome for the organizers.:)Hmmmm? Another good compromise!!!! :D It would keep the number of events down. Also, given the intimidation factor of being able to compete against the Bronze ladies, may scare off enough of the "beginners that never did a program in their lives" to allow the more experienced Pre-Bronze skaters who has a LOT more experience doing programs to give it a go.

Your comments, dcden?

[jazzpants]

Just to add a couple more numbers to what Rob had posted...

Skate Wilmington 2005 Pre-bronze Ladies --- 7

2005 New Year's Invitational Pre-Bronze Ladies I -- 3
Pre-Bronze Ladies II -- 4
Pre-Bronze Ladies III/IV -- 5And I will add Skate San Francisco and St. Moritz.

Skate San Francisco:
Pre-Bronze I and II - 4
Pre-Bronze III and V - 3

St. Moritz:
Pre-Bronze Ladies - 3

[NoVa Sk8r]

Just to mention, the reason why one can enter bronze at ISU O'dorf is because every country has a different testing standard, and there is no way to create a consitent mapping system for all those levels for adults. So they rely on the skaters to group themselves according to level.

The O'dorf competition structure reflects the history of world adult skating, which largely grew around Mountain Cup, a USFS-sanctioned and sponsored event. With O'dorf being an ISU and not a USFS event, however, USFS test levels cannot be brought to bear.
Remember although there is "loose mapping" between different countries' testing structures, each country has a totally different system and thus it would be very hard to have strict test eligibiltiy requirements for skaters of each nationality.

The point is that saying that pre-bronze skaters would be able to skate at the ISU bronze level has no bearing on the adult nationals discussion. Remember, according to O'dorf, anyone can enter any event. A pre-bronze skater can enter bronze, silver, gold, heck, even masters. (C'mon jazz, will we see you in the master's level at O'dorf? :twisted: :P )
That said, you can also skate down one or several levels (and people do do this) because there are no test maximums for each level.
Again, the O'dorf model is not relevant to the pre-bronzers entering AN.

And letting pre-bronze skate in the bronze levels? That is not fair to the bronze skaters who have worked hard and have passed those tests.
What would be the motivation to pass the bronze tests since one could skate up to bronze?

[Terri C]

And letting pre-bronze skate in the bronze levels? That is not fair to the bronze skaters who have worked hard and have passed those tests.What would be the motivation to pass the bronze tests since one could skate up to bronze?

The motivation? From one skater who you know has skated up to Bronze in the past, the motivation would be improvement in hopes of staying out of the cellar! That and getting a 500 pound 5 year gorilla off my back!
Can I comment on some things that are not fair? The changes that they made on the Pre Bronze moves test by taking out the alternating threes that I, Debbie S, MSF and quite a few others suffered from. The fact (and a few others on this thread don't seem to acknowledge this) that there are Pre Bronze skaters with better basic skating skills staying at home, as opposed to upper level skaters. :frus:

Next...???

[Debbie S]

And here is something else to consider: If I had passed Bronze MIF back in October when I first tested (or any other time before the AN deadline) I would have tested (and probably passed) Bronze FS and maybe would have gone to AN (I say maybe b/c there are some work issues that may have affected my ability to attend). My freestyle program would probably be about the same as it is now. Of course, if I hadn't had Bronze moves to worry about for the past 6 months or so (and I do plan to learn and test Silver MIF, but it likely would not have been a huge focus of my practices if I was preparing for AN), I might have gotten some more skills, like a flip or a change-foot spin, but who knows?

So if I skate that program at AN in Bronze, my program and skating are deemed worthy of being at AN, but the same program in Pre-Bronze isn't? :roll:

[jazzpants]

A pre-bronze skater can enter bronze, silver, gold, heck, even masters. (C'mon jazz, will we see you in the master's level at O'dorf? :twisted: :P )With all due respect, I'd like to see you try to compete w/o good forward crossovers at the Master's level! :twisted: :P

And letting pre-bronze skate in the bronze levels? That is not fair to the bronze skaters who have worked hard and have passed those tests.
What would be the motivation to pass the bronze tests since one could skate up to bronze?Ummm... how about it's TWO less tests to worry about so you can work on OTHER things??? :twisted: :P

Again, the O'dorf model is not relevant to the pre-bronzers entering AN.
It is QUITE relevant! O'dorf is consider to be unofficially "Adult Worlds!!!"

[jazzpants]

67 siggies today!!! And we got at least one "World and Olympic competitor" that you might recognize!!! (Well, two Worlds level competitors if you include my "sorta famous" NYC coach...) :mrgreen: A big thank you for to those who posted! Please keep 'em coming!!! If you know someone who supports this issue, please pass on the petition link to them too!

http://www.petitiononline.com/PreBrzFS/petition.html

Thanks! :D

[Terri C]

With all due respect, I'd like to see you try to compete w/o good forward crossovers at the Master's level! :twisted: :P

Exactly what I was trying to point out in my last post!! :twisted:

[Mrs Redboots]

I think many of the interp events are costume contests and could be held in the lobby.Flo, as you will undoubtedly see at the Mountain Cup, I am a pretty poor skater - but I, and others who also enjoy Interpretive events - do skate to the best of our ability in our Interpretive classes. Yes, there is as much acting as there is skating, if not more - but it's not all about the costume!

In many ways, although the skating can be less technical, it's the harder discipline, as you have to keep "in character" throughout the duration of the piece.... which is what I'm battling with in my present piece! So please, although my skating is very poor, I do hope that when you see it you won't write it off as a "costume event that could have been held in the lobby"..... I didn't quite realise how hurtful I found that remark until I thought about it when working on a section of my Interp at the rink this morning.

[rlichtefeld]

Actually, I have a compromise that may just work.

At Regionals, there is the Qualifying event, that is the true Regional qualifying rounds sanctioned by the USFS as such. And, at the same time there is a non-qualifying competition. They are held at the same time, put on by the same LOC, but they are not truly the same event to USFS. However, it is the same event to the skaters. Ask any Preliminary skater that went to Regionals and they will tell you so.

So, why couldn't the LOC add Pre-Bronze events as a "non-qualifying" portion of AN. It could be a trial that way. The LOC would have to apply for an additional sanction for an all-adult comp, they would have to take applications directly, since they wouldn't be going through USFS, and then the Pre-Bronze skaters could be at the same rinks with the Bronze and above.

So, here is the charge to all the Pre-Bronze skaters on this list, or all the skaters that have signed the petition. Contact your club, and have them bid on an upcoming AN, with you agreeing to chair the Pre-Bronze portion of the event. Or, contact any of the upcoming LOCs of the ANs, and offer the same.

You or your team would do the announcement, mail it, take the applications, enter them into a database, get them into a format that the referee and accountant want, then work work the LOC for staffing of registration, hospitality, etc.

If you want an event to happen, sometimes you actually have to get your hands dirty.

Rob
TANSTAAFL (There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.)

[NoVa Sk8r]

It is QUITE relevant! O'dorf is consider to be unofficially "Adult Worlds!!!"Um, no. According to whom? A lot of the top U.S. skaters were not there, not to mention top adult international skaters.
I'm not sure why people keep referring to this as "Adult Worlds." It's not. In fact, last year, Mountain Cup was the same size, if not larger, than O'dorf.

None of the championship masters ladies medalists (edited to add this) from AN2005 were even at O'dorf and only 2 of the medalists in championship masters and gold men were there. Ditto for championship ladies.

Even if this is Adult Worlds, it's still not relevant to the US adult nationals discussion. The argument and linking is specious at best.

[NoVa Sk8r]

With all due respect, I'd like to see you try to compete w/o good forward crossovers at the Master's level! :twisted: :P Exactly--you make my point. I COULD compete at master's level at O'dorf. I wouldn't place well, but the fact remains that i could sign up for that event. The IUS/USFS systems are different.

[NoVa Sk8r]

And here is something else to consider: If I had passed Bronze MIF back in October when I first tested, I would have tested (and probably passed) Bronze FS and maybe would have gone to AN. My freestyle program would probably be about the same as it is now. Of course, if I hadn't had Bronze moves to worry about for the past 6 months or so (and I do plan to learn and test Silver MIF, but it likely would not have been a huge focus of my practices if I was preparing for AN), I might have gotten some more skills, like a flip or a change-foot spin, but who knows?

So if I skate that program at AN in Bronze, my program and skating are deemed worthy of being at AN, but the same program in Pre-Bronze isn't? :roll:This assumes that you would have passed your Bronze FS and moves test. But you DIDN'T pass those tests, right? You're comparing apples and oranges. Getting your bronze moves to a passing level would probably translate into stronger freestyle skating and a better program, so it's not the "same" program as what you are skating now. You say "My freestyle program would probably be about the same as it is now", but how do you know that? By getting the moves down your program would probably be far BETTER b/c of the improved skating skills developed in the moves.

Similarly, even though I might skate the same elements when/if I pass gold as I do in silver, I am betting that the *process* of learning gold moves and getting them to a passing level will make my basic skating better and truly "gold level." So, even though I might skate the exact same program that I am doing now when/if I get to gold, the whole process of testing the gold moves will likely NOT make it the "same" program. Get it?

[coskater64]

I would agree with NoVa skater, the ISU event is NOT "Adult Worlds". It is an adult competition, an open competition, with no international titles on the line. There is still no common standard for grading levels between the adults with regards to different countries, any skater, at any level may compete so long as the meet the requirements for the program (well balanced reqs).

I would imagined it is hoped in the future that this will one day become a qualifying event w/ the top 4 from Champ Gold, Masters, & Dance from each country will come to compete againist each other. They wil most likely continue to have open events and the Master's Elite events.

Pre Bronze skaters can enter this event but remember they use the NJS for this event and you will skate againist people who may use a more difficult standard from a different country not to mention, regular standard track bronze skaters. Some of the scores at the bronze level were below 5 some were in the high teens, if you do it for the love of the sport then it's fine-- but remember the playing field is different.

That's my 02 cents.

[flo]

Mrs. Redboots - no hurt intended at all! As you said you skate to the best of your ability, and that's great - no mater what level. I'm talking about the programs which rely on the costumes more than the skating, who don't as you say keep in character or carry the program throught. I agree that interpretive can be much more difficult to skate than a free program - because your skating has to tell a story or theme. I'd like to see the initial rounds of interpretive be done in black leotards. If your theme/story can be translated to the judges and audience without the benefit of the costume, and relies on the skating and choreography, it goes to final rounds.
I like to see the skating tell the story, not just the costume. This is possible at any level, and I look forward to seeing you skate!

[manleywoman]

None of the championship maters ladies from AN2005 were even at O'dorf and only 2 of the medalists in championship masters and gold men were there.
Uh, wrong. In Champ. Masters you had Kim Sailer, Beth Delano, and Jenny Wall, two of whom were in Champ Masters Ladies in 2005 (and Beth's been in ANs Masters Ladies 10 years in a row), and one of whom has been in every Champ Masters Ladies except 2005. Sicne there were only 7 Masters ladies total in O'dorf, and from memory the winner was French and another was canadian, I'd say the ANs Masters Ladies were well represented.

Not that I disagree with your overall argument, but wanted to set the record straight on the fact that we had quite a few there.

[jazzpants]

This assumes that you would have passed your Bronze FS and moves test. But you DIDN'T pass those tests, right? You're comparing apples and oranges. Getting your bronze moves to a passing level would probably translate into stronger freestyle skating and a better program, so it's not the "same" program as what you are skating now. You say "My freestyle program would probably be about the same as it is now", but how do you know that? By getting the moves down your program would probably be far BETTER b/c of the improved skating skills developed in the moves.

Similarly, even though I might skate the same elements when/if I pass gold as I do in silver, I am betting that the *process* of learning gold moves and getting them to a passing level will make my basic skating better and truly "gold level." So, even though I might skate the exact same program that I am doing now when/if I get to gold, the whole process of testing the gold moves will likely NOT make it the "same" program. Get it?Ahhh... but you're not taking into account some of the skaters who HAVE tested and pass the FS test BEFORE the moves requirement happened. I think THOSE are the ones Debbie is concerned about. (I'm not dissing those skaters, BTW. I know a slew of those skaters are also working hard to pass their moves tests. Just that those moves tests are NOT easy tests to pass...)

And with all due respect, if you feel that only those who passed their respective moves and FS test should compete at their respective level, then, you sir, should not have competed at Bronze back in 2004? (I can't remember when you passed Silver Moves and FS... late 2004?) :twisted:

[Hannahclear]

Wow, fascinating debate still, though some people, including myself, have taken certain comments personally. I suppose that comes with the territory.

I think I've finally decided what I think. Pre-bronze should not be included. Why?

1) Adult skating is not designed to mirror the standard track, yes that is true. I don't care about my skating being equal or better to the skaters who start very young. I care about my skating being great for an adult, which is a different standard. However, the ADULT STANDARD has settled on bronze being the first level to compete at Nats. It does kind of make sense. Bronzers can do all singles and flying spins. Silvers can do axels and everything bronzers do. And Gold skaters can do doubles (I think up to loop?). These are the levels that Adult Skaters are used to and work towards. Now realistically, what would the prebronze standard be? Having seen some prebronzers skate, I really feel that they are just developing towards bronze. The level is bronze. They are "pre" or before that level. I don't think it makes sense to add what basically amounts to an intermediary level. Because I don't think prebronze it and of itself really amounts to a level.

2) I have been swayed by the arguments that it wouldn't be all that much more money and it would also cost more. Still, I do think this is a strong argument.

3) Yes, adult skating is primarily for fun. Adult Nats shouldn't be exclusionary. But Adult Skating should have its own standards, which have evolved over time. If anything standards should increase, not decrease.

4) I say this as someone who has NOT passed bronze tests. I have a bronze program and skate up at local events. However, should I not be able to pass bronze moves, then I guess I would have to keep trying and striving. Because I think the skills on bronze moves are important for adults to have.

[SkateGuard]

:roll: I do support you pre-bronze skaters.....I was one not so long ago. In my limited experience,however, I do feel that Bronze is the lowest level that should be skated at AN. There is no other "Pre" category....what would be next..."Pre-silver" "Pre-Gold" "Pre-Masters"? All of which could have the exact same argument as yours.....

I expect to be in a similar situation next year...very possible that I wont qualify for silver...should I petition for a pre-silver event?

Practice....Practice...... If it is supposed to happen it will!

Um, Pre-Bronze dance, pre-Silver dance, pre-Gold Dance. :) Remember there _is_ a pre-bronze test level. There is no pre-Silver test level. If you're
"in between," do what I did this year--compete in interp and skip freestyle.

I was told in Dallas that there were only 450 skaters in Dallas. For Chicago, we are estimating 600-800....I wonder if we're being overconfident. Unless we can get a big TV contract, we do need to explore ways of increasing entries.....

[Hannahclear]

According to my coach, the two areas of skating that are growing right now are Adult and Synchro.....

[SkateGuard]

But what if I pass silver moves and cant get my silver free? Then I am not able to compete. Just like several skaters I have heard...pass gold moves and dont pass gold free....

Actually, in 2004 I competed (having passed Prelim moves) in Bronze against girls who had passed their Gold and Intermediate moves. There is a Silver level skater who has passed Senior moves, but doesn't have the axel consistant enought to pass Gold free. Adult skating, like a lot of life, is what _you_ make of it.

Also, to reply to NoVa (sorry, missed you skate this year)....the Dallas FSC had purchased the ice time to use both surfaces on Saturday. They ended up having to sell it back to hockey, public skate, etc. I certainly hope that move (which was the decision of the chief ref, btw) didn't cost the LOC $$$.

[Debbie S]

By getting the moves down your program would probably be far BETTER b/c of the improved skating skills developed in the moves. I was referring to freestyle elements. I agree with you that working on moves improves your overall skating, and every time I (and others) have tried to make the point that Pre-Bronze skaters have to demonstrate skills beyond just the FS test elements thanks to the moves requirement, people seem to want to steer the discussion back to the FS test (which a Pre-Bronze skater couldn't take w/o passing the moves first).

My point is that there is a variety of skill level in Bronze, which I saw for myself watching the video that I got of Bronze (old) I at AN last year. There are test-level Bronzes (like I would be) and there are those with lutz-loop-loop combos and flying camels, and those at all places in between. But if a test-level Bronze program (like mine is in terms of technical content) is not considered non-skating b/c it's performed by a Bronze skater, then why should a Pre-Bronze program with the same content be considered non-skating, as a poster on this thread suggested (which I thought was a bit insulting....but I'm open to the idea that maybe she didn't mean it the way it was intended). If the point is that the overall skating skills, as a result of passing Bronze MIF, would make the difference, I'm open to agreeing with that....but remember, not every Bronze level skater who competed at AN this year has passed Bronze moves, so that brings us back to the question of what exactly constitutes Bronze-level or national-level skating.

Because I don't think prebronze it and of itself really amounts to a level.But you skated as a kid (or teenager), Hannahclear. From what I've read in your posts, it sounds like you were already basically at the Bronze level (in terms of your moves testing and freestyle skills) when you became an "adult" skater. For people who started skating as adults (particularly those over 35 or 40), Pre-Bronze is a level, one that they aspire to get to by learning and passing the moves and FS skills. Most adults who compete don't want to stay Pre-Bronze for long, b/c they'd like to get to AN (plus, there are a lot of local comps that don't offer Pre-Bronze, although more do than used to) and also b/c they want to learn the higher level skills and move up the testing ladder. Same reason that Bronze skaters aspire to move up to Silver, and Silver to Gold, provided they have the skills to be competitive.

[crayonskater]

Whether a given pre-Bronzer is *better* than a lot of Bronze level skaters is really neither here nor there, and I think insisting on that point hurts the case. (No one here thinks like that, as they're just pointing out the oddness of being 'in the gap' on struggling on Bronze moves but proficient in late-Bronze singles, but to the USFSA, I'm sure it would look kind of catty: 'I'm better than *her*, why can't I go just cause I didn't pass the test before the deadline and she did. Wahhhh.' To which the only reasonable response by the USFSA is 'We already decided that MiTF were important.')

I'm sure the top skaters at any level are probably better than the lower-ranked skaters at the next highest level (and this is true even in the competitive ranks).

Better to focus the argument on the interest and the viability of pre-Bronze as a separate level, not on how the Pre-Bronze skaters are all so close anyway it doesn't matter. USFSA isn't going to want to hear that their tests shouldn't count for their National comp!

[SkateGuard]

Lovepairs, there IS pre-bronze dance at nationals, but that is actually the second level of dance. The first set of dances is called preliminary, I believe (someone who actually dances please correct me if I'm wrong), but there is no preliminary dance event at AN.

Yes, and you have to pass _SIX_ dance tests to compete--the three prelim and the three pre-bronze. Two teams were passing tests in late December--my partner and I had to fly to another state--so that we could get the tests done in time.

[crayonskater]

IBut if a test-level Bronze program (like mine is in terms of technical content) is not considered non-skating b/c it's performed by a Bronze skater, then why should a Pre-Bronze program with the same content be considered non-skating, as a poster on this thread suggested (which I thought was a bit insulting....but I'm open to the idea that maybe she didn't mean it the way it was intended).

Totally not the way it was intended! Which is gloriously clear from context:

That seems a little weird. If it's a true pre-Bronze level, and we want it to be true to the test, it should be just that, and not a Bronze program minus tests. And I can't think of comparable restrictions (no flips or lutzes, no combo spins) like the 'no doubles' rule in Silver that wouldn't just lead to dull skating.

I think I'm the only one to use the phrase 'dull skating.' But here we can see the phrase in its original context, where I was discussing the viability of a restriction on jumps that would a) sufficiently distinguish Pre-Bronze from Bronze (because it would be bad if pre-Bronze wasn't a level accomodating to true beginning-to-mid-range pre-Bronzers, but just a 'didn't pass the Bronze test yet, so I took the lutz out of my program') and b) not be such a severe restriction that it led to dull skating, like having a true beginner routine of some crossovers and waltz jumps.

As I'm sure you can see, this is much different from saying 'All pre-Bronze skating is dull and boring.'

[Hannahclear]

But you skated as a kid (or teenager), Hannahclear. From what I've read in your posts, it sounds like you were already basically at the Bronze level (in terms of your moves testing and freestyle skills) when you became an "adult" skater. For people who started skating as adults (particularly those over 35 or 40), Pre-Bronze is a level, one that they aspire to get to by learning and passing the moves and FS skills. Most adults who compete don't want to stay Pre-Bronze for long, b/c they'd like to get to AN (plus, there are a lot of local comps that don't offer Pre-Bronze, although more do than used to) and also b/c they want to learn the higher level skills and move up the testing ladder. Same reason that Bronze skaters aspire to move up to Silver, and Silver to Gold, provided they have the skills to be competitive.

This is basically true. I started skating at 15 (post 94 whack), got up to prelim by my senior year of high school and then quit. Went through basic skills and pre pre. I came back to skating later and turned 25 just as they lowered the age requirement.

I recognize that it is easier to get started younger, and just as someone who started at 4 has an easier time than me, I have an easier time than someone who started at 35. But I don't think that's a reason to change the standards. I know a woman who started in her 30s and who is a silver skater and she's a hell of alot better than me, and she didn't skate as a kid.

Pre-bronze is a level, but not a competitive level. IMO, it's a beginner adult.

[lovepairs]

That "skating as a kid" argument never holds water...I'm living proof of it. I started at age 5. Forty three years later, I still can't do backward cross overs. My partner started in his late thirties. Nine years letter his back cross overs are impeccable. It's humiliating--our coach has him teaching me back cross overs! End of story.

Now, I still think there should be a Pre-Bronze pairs competition at AN! :P

[SkateGuard]

Now I see why I was confused... I remember the AC discussing this a few years ago so I assumed it had already passed, and I thought the proposal was for qualifying events too, thus I thought that there wouldn't be very many international judges at AN, if any. I stand corrected. (You got the look, you got the hook, sho nuf do be cookin'...)

Well, here's a good example as why major comps might be an issue....I was slated to test my Silver FS on Jan 13th, but it got pulled because all the available judges were at Nationals (as spectators) that week.....

So even if they do not have double assignments, many do travel to these comps as fans...especially when they are places like Calgary, which is relatively inexpensive compared to Europe or Japan.

My understanding of the issue this year was that some officials had last-minute personal issues and couldn't make it--with no replacements available. I have never heard anything about judges _not_ wanting to judge ANs over other comps, but they might also just be polite.;)

[lovepairs]

Can someone explain to me how there can be a shortage of judges? There are like 20 million judges at my home club. I have to imagine that the total number of judges who are qualified to judge AN is very large. I think they just didn't want to spend the $$$ to fly in judges, that's all. Is there a registry at the USFSA that says how many judges there are in the US broken out by levels?

[SkateGuard]

Uh, wrong. In Champ. Masters you had Kim Sailer, Beth Delano, and Jenny Wall, two of whom were in Champ Masters Ladies in 2005 (and Beth's been in ANs Masters Ladies 10 years in a row), and one of whom has been in every Champ Masters Ladies except 2005. Sicne there were only 7 Masters ladies total in O'dorf, and from memory the winner was French and another was canadian, I'd say the ANs Masters Ladies were well represented.

Not that I disagree with your overall argument, but wanted to set the record straight on the fact that we had quite a few there.

And Jenny was healing from a back injury that pulled her out of Adult Sectionals/Nationals that year--had she been healthy, she would have been there.

[Terri C]

Also, to reply to NoVa (sorry, missed you skate this year)....the Dallas FSC had purchased the ice time to use both surfaces on Saturday. They ended up having to sell it back to hockey, public skate, etc. I certainly hope that move (which was the decision of the chief ref, btw) didn't cost the LOC $$$.

We (the Pre Bronze skaters) could have helped pay the ice bill by being there, but oh well. :roll: ;)

[jenlyon60]

I can't remember what minimum level they use for ANs, am guessing at least Novice Comp judges.

When an LOC or chief ref has to find last minute substitutions the issue often becomes finding a qualified judge that has that particular timeframe free. Many judges have their schedules filled months in advance... I know judges who are already committed through the summer between competitions and test sessions. And sometimes judges, too, would like to have a weekend at home with the family and friends.

Add to that that many judges have full-time jobs as well, such that they might not be able to take a week of vacation at the last minute, to serve as a substitute for the substitute. A pre-designated substitute would have cleared the week on their calendar, unless a personal or family emergency came up at the last minute. A "LOC or chief ref went through the list at the last minute and called John Doe" potential substitute probably didn't.

[NoVa Sk8r]

And with all due respect, if you feel that only those who passed their respective moves and FS test should compete at their respective level, then, you sir, should not have competed at Bronze back in 2004? (I can't remember when you passed Silver Moves and FS... late 2004?) :twisted:I think you must be mistaken: I passed bronze FS in early 2002. And my last bronze event was in September '02 at the Mid-Atlantic Championships.

[Terri C]

I think you must be mistaken: I passed bronze FS in early 2002. And my last bronze event was in September '02 at the Mid-Atlantic Championships.

Uh yeah, Jazz- he (NoVa) skated up to Silver, starting at NYI in 2004.

[daisies]

Can someone explain to me how there can be a shortage of judges? There are like 20 million judges at my home club. I have to imagine that the total number of judges who are qualified to judge AN is very large. I think they just didn't want to spend the $$$ to fly in judges, that's all. Is there a registry at the USFSA that says how many judges there are in the US broken out by levels?

The judge has to be Junior comp or higher. The judge is asked months ahead of time if he/she is available. Of those who are available, a certain number are selected to judge and some are selected as alternates.

This year all the alternates were used because the some of the judges selected to judge had personal issues that forced them to withdraw. As I have posted before, one of them a had a heart attack.

Things like that happen, unfortunately. It has nothing to do with them not wanting to spend money on flying them in. Nothing.

To answer your question, there is a directory put out every year by USFS with all the officials' information -- judging levels, home clubs, etc. But like I said, the AN judges plan way advance to be there; as it gets closer, it's not like you can just open the directory and pick someone to be a replacement. AN is a four-day competition, so a judge would who wasn't originally selected would have to drop everything, probably travel, and then judge for four days straight. What do they do about work? What do they do about their kids or pets?

The same system is in place for Regionals, Sectionals and Adult Sectionals. In fact, qualified judges are asked in JUNE if they are available for Regionals in October, Sectionals in November and Adult Sectionals the following February. A lot of planning is involved.

[Debbie S]

Totally not the way it was intended! Which is gloriously clear from contextActually, crayonskater, I wasn't referring to your post.

USFSA isn't going to want to hear that their tests shouldn't count for their National comp!I never said that tests weren't important. Quite the contrary - one of the points of the petition is that Pre-Bronze skaters have passed MIF and FS tests, just like the skaters at the higher levels, and since those tests do "count", the skaters passing them should be allowed to compete at AN, following the well-balanced program requirements of that level.

My comments about test levels and comparable abilities were a response to the comments about the quality of skating in Pre-Bronze, which IMO, were too general.

[jazzpants]

*sigh* I just came back from skating again...and ironically practicing nothing but moves... and am in a better mood since for the VERY first time, I feel like I'm ready (or very close to ready) to test Bronze Moves now...

I think you must be mistaken: I passed bronze FS in early 2002. And my last bronze event was in September '02 at the Mid-Atlantic Championships.I said "moves AND FS", not just FS. And BTW, for the record, I do think that NoVa is entitled to compete at Bronze anyway, but I was using him as debate point...)

The point was made the argument that "true Gold level skaters" passed both moves and FS. So does this mean that if say, one of Gold Men skater who took the Gold FS test before the requirement is not a "true Gold FS level skater" b/c he didn't take his moves? If he thinks it's true, then "by NoVa's argument" he (NoVa) was not a "true Bronze level FS skater" back in 2002 b/c he didn't take the "Bronze Moves" test back in whenever he took his Bronze FS test (which I knew it was before the moves requirement went into effect.)

BUT the point that I'm trying to make, as Debbie made so nicely in one of her posts, is there are skaters out there that have tested those FS test and are qualified to compete at their respective levels b/c they took their FS tests BEFORE the moves requirement went into effect, but they took the chance that they will be placed fairly low b/c of their overall skating quality... b/c they don't want the hassle of going thru those moves tests. So you really can't judge a skater by his/her FS test level. THAT's the point I was trying to make!

Now, I still think there should be a Pre-Bronze pairs competition at AN! :PHey! The more the merrier, that's what I think! :D And no, "Pre-Bronze pairs" does NOT equal "Pre-Bronze dance." WAAAAAY different disciplines, though, of course, there are elements of ice dancing in pairs... and they would have to compete at AN in DANCE, not PAIRS.

I mean no disrespect to NoVa!!! When all is said and done and we're done sluggin' it out on this thread, I'll still happily go out and have a beer (well, coffee for me, not a drinker...) with him afterwards when we finally meet. 8-)

[rlichtefeld]

Can someone explain to me how there can be a shortage of judges? There are like 20 million judges at my home club. I have to imagine that the total number of judges who are qualified to judge AN is very large. I think they just didn't want to spend the $$$ to fly in judges, that's all. Is there a registry at the USFSA that says how many judges there are in the US broken out by levels?

Looking in the 2005-2006 Directory for the USFS, I see only 12 judges listed for Delaware. You do skate for Wilmington SC, correct? (BTW, anyone can get the directory. You get one when you purchase the USFS rulebook.)

Of those, for Singles and Pairs, only one is Senior, one is Junior and one is Novice. None have Natl comp appointments. You do have one judge with a Natl appt for Dance.

So, only one of your club's judge can judge at Adult Nationals and that would only be for dance. Since, it requires a Natl appointment.

Most of the judges with Natl appts are getting up there in age. If you subscribe to the skating-news@yahoogroups.com email list, there is almost a death a week listed for judges.
(BTW, that list is a post only list that is put out by Tom Sobell, and I would recommend it:
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Skating-News/)

Rob

[dcden]

Also, given the intimidation factor of being able to compete against the Bronze ladies, may scare off enough of the "beginners that never did a program in their lives" to allow the more experienced Pre-Bronze skaters who has a LOT more experience doing programs to give it a go.

Well this might work, and I agree it may scare off some of the PB folks who are not program ready, but I dunno. I've met some skaters over the past few years who have unrealistically lofty goals, and would not be scared off at all. Plus, as Nova said, it's not really fair to the Bronze folks who did work hard to pass their Brz MIF and FS to get to AN. And, as Nova also alluded, I can also see how some PB skaters would not have as much incentive to pass Brz FS and MIF if this were allowed (not ALL PB skaters, of course, but admit it, some would take the easy route, it's only human). In any case, I do like this idea better than just creating a whole new PB category for AN.


Now, I still think there should be a Pre-Bronze pairs competition at AN!

No, no, and no. As Loops of flo (I can't remember which) pointed out earlier, it was only recently that even Bronze level skaters could do pairs; the minimum singles FS test allowed was Silver. As risky as pair skating is, I'd say we let the Bronze pair level run a few more years and then reassess. I see no need to change this now.


...Pre-Bronze skaters have passed MIF and FS tests, just like the skaters at the higher levels, and since those tests do "count", the skaters passing them should be allowed to compete at AN, following the well-balanced program requirements of that level.
I keep reading this argument phrased one way or another and still don't understand it. This is like saying "Sally Smith passed her Silver MIF and FS, therefore she should skate at Masters level, since she passed USFS MIF/FS tests just like the other Master Ladies did". The fact that you passed your MIF and FS tests IMO doesn't change your claim to be included in AN any. It's not like PB are the only level of skaters who have to take MIF tests... all adult levels do (including Gold if you want to test up to Masters). And, we've already discussed the differences between the PB MIF/FS test and those Bronze and above (pass/fail vs. 6.0 scale, one judge vs. three, no program required, "encouragement" test). I mean, it's a great achievement to pass any USFS test, but at the end of the day, passing PB MIF/FS means just that you've passed up to Pre-Bronze, whose MIF/FS tests are fundamentally different from that of higher levels for the reasons above.

Pre-Bronze didn't all of the sudden become a new entity because MIF were added. It just means there was one extra test you had to pass to get there, but then again, ALL adult levels now have a corresponding MIF test, and yet each level still otherwise means the same thing it did before MIF. I mean, am I missing something in this argument? It sounds like you're saying "We're a recognized adult level for reasons of the MIF and FS tests [true], so that necessarily means we should be in AN", which is just a restatement of your original petition but not much of a supporting argument for it.

I don't want to say you guys don't have some good arguments... you do (to reiterate, the money issue assuming future AN's are trying to rake in more money than those in the recent past, and issues of inclusivity), but I think the "We passed PB MIF, so let us into AN" is not one of them. I'm not saying you need to have my approval either, that's just my advice to you should you get to a point where you're arguing your case for USFS officials or the Adult Committee.


...there are skaters out there that have tested those FS test and are qualified to compete at their respective levels b/c they took their FS tests BEFORE the moves requirement went into effect, but they took the chance that they will be placed fairly low b/c of their overall skating quality... b/c they don't want the hassle of going thru those moves tests. So you really can't judge a skater by his/her FS test level.
No, but what else do you have to go on? I mean, like it or not, Adult MIF is with us and isn't going away anytime soon. Yes, a lot of people got caught in the bind by not being able to test up a FS level before MIF came to be, and now they're caught up in the corresponding MIF test. But again, as crayonskater pointed out earlier today, I don't think the argument would hold up very well in the long run. I mean it was/is tough for all adult skaters in that situation, I can't deny that, but at the end of the day, no LOC is going to look past a skater's official test level when determining what event they belong in.

[jazzpants]

Well this might work, and I agree it may scare off some of the PB folks who are not program ready, but I dunno. I've met some skaters over the past few years who have unrealistically lofty goals, and would not be scared off at all. Plus, as Nova said, it's not really fair to the Bronze folks who did work hard to pass their Brz MIF and FS to get to AN. And, as Nova also alluded, I can also see how some PB skaters would not have as much incentive to pass Brz FS and MIF if this were allowed (not ALL PB skaters, of course, but admit it, some would take the easy route, it's only human). In any case, I do like this idea better than just creating a whole new PB category for AN.Okay, two types of Pre-Bronze skaters that might show up:
Pre-Bronze sandbaggers: Well, the way I see it is... they will eventually have to face taking those tests if they continue on... Of course, unless they want to stay competing at the combined Pre-Bronze/Bronze level.

As for the skaters with unrealistically lofty goals... I know of one Pre-Bronze skater that's like that and that skater got a sobering wakeup call when she had to compete against Bronze level skaters from MY neck of the woods!!! :twisted: :lol:

Seriously, if I did pass my Bronze tests now, I have no illusions of making it to the final round. If anything, I will likely be in the cellar. Will I be bothered by it? If I skated my best and still ended up in the cellar, HELL NO!!!

No, but what else do you have to go on? I mean, like it or not, Adult MIF is with us and isn't going away anytime soon. Yes, a lot of people got caught in the bind by not being able to test up a FS level before MIF came to be, and now they're caught up in the corresponding MIF test. But again, as crayonskater pointed out earlier today, I don't think the argument would hold up very well in the long run. I mean it was/is tough for all adult skaters in that situation, I can't deny that, but at the end of the day, no LOC is going to look past a skater's official test level when determining what event they belong in.What else do you have to go on? Hmmm? Well, you have their placements from other adult comps. You have their Sectionals placements if they did compete there. If they passed Moves but not FS, you have that too. (For example: a skater who's not a strong jumper, but definitely more than enough strong edges to compensate for it...)

But you have a good point for focusing more on the inclusivity and the $$$ issue...well, particularly the $$$ issue. (Money talks...) ;)

[skaternum]

You know, another thread just got closed by an admin because it had exceeded the unofficial "3 post rule." To paraphrase: if you haven't convinced someone after 3 posts, you're not going to. Maybe it's time to just acknowledge that some people want pre-bronze at AN and some people don't, and then put this baby to bed?? We're really not getting anywhere, and the arguments have become repetitive.

To those of you working on your bronze tests, best of luck to you. Keep at it!

[Debbie S]

I keep reading this argument phrased one way or another and still don't understand it. This is like saying "Sally Smith passed her Silver MIF and FS, therefore she should skate at Masters level, since she passed USFS MIF/FS tests just like the other Master Ladies did". Except that I never said skaters passing Pre-Bronze MIF tests should skate at Masters or any other level besides Pre-Bronze. My point (and one of the points of the petition) is that getting to Pre-Bronze FS requires a skater to demonstrate more skating skills than it did before the MIF requirement (and yes, I know this is true for all levels).

Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion on the passing standard of Pre-Bronze and how it differs from other levels, etc. (although I do wish that people who never had to take Pre-Bronze MIF as true Pre-Bronze skaters would stop asserting how easy it is to get the skills to passing standard, esp the old version with the alt 3's). But the petition's point is that since the skills required to be Pre-Bronze have been increased (b/c of MIF), and that since Pre-Bronze has become a more structured level, with well-balanced program requirements and such, that maybe it's time to think about adding Pre-Bronze to AN, that's all. There are those who do not agree - so be it.

[dcden]

You know, another thread just got closed by an admin because it had exceeded the unofficial "3 post rule." To paraphrase: if you haven't convinced someone after 3 posts, you're not going to. Maybe it's time to just acknowledge that some people want pre-bronze at AN and some people don't, and then put this baby to bed?? We're really not getting anywhere, and the arguments have become repetitive.
Fair enough, my head hurts.

[FrankR]

Fair enough, my head hurts.

Well, contemplating the Magna Carta will do that to you, unfortunately. ;) :lol: :lol: :lol:

[PattyP]

Flo, as you will undoubtedly see at the Mountain Cup, I am a pretty poor skater - but I, and others who also enjoy Interpretive events - do skate to the best of our ability in our Interpretive classes. Yes, there is as much acting as there is skating, if not more - but it's not all about the costume!

In many ways, although the skating can be less technical, it's the harder discipline, as you have to keep "in character" throughout the duration of the piece.... which is what I'm battling with in my present piece! So please, although my skating is very poor, I do hope that when you see it you won't write it off as a "costume event that could have been held in the lobby"..... I didn't quite realise how hurtful I found that remark until I thought about it when working on a section of my Interp at the rink this morning.

I thought I was being overly sesnitive when I read her post. I'm glad you commented about how you felt since I felt the same way. As Kermit may say "it's not easy being green" it's also not easy to perform jumps, spins and footwork with a 4 ft. frog, a large wig and a pig snout! ;) And as you said, to act and stay in character throughout takes a lot of practice.

I don't skate interp for results, I skate it for crowd reaction. I think I have been successful doing that with my "costume" programs and will continue to do them. I will never be competitive in Masters Interp skating a "pretty" program against masters level skaters and besides it's just not me.

So bring on the farm animals!!! :lol:

[VegasGirl]

Why not just switch to ISI then you could compete at any level.

[flo]

Patty - you've always "skated" your programs, not let the costume carry the show. There's a big difference. If you can't get a feel of an interpretive program from the choreography and skating, then it's a costume contest, which unfortunately has led to the remarks by the judges that they "don't want to judge all that non-skating", and the removal of final rounds.

[PattyP]

Patty - you've always "skated" your programs, not let the costume carry the show. There's a big difference. If you can't get a feel of an interpretive program from the choreography and skating, then it's a costume contest, which unfortunately has led to the remarks by the judges that they "don't want to judge all that non-skating", and the removal of final rounds.

Yeah, my coach wouldn't let me do it any other way. She tried to have me doing camel spins and lutz jumps with that damn frog! :lol: Luckily I convinced her it wasn't worth the risk. Thanks for the compliment!

[flo]

Hey - we think frogs should jump!!! I get my kids in class to be frogs all the time, it really gets them into their knees. One tried to eat a bug. :roll:

[cecealias]

Has anyone tallied up the number of bronze level skaters at sectionals this season?

I could see pre-bronze make a case for AN if the number of skaters rivals or begins to rival that of Bronze at sectionals. Otherwise, it would just seem too few, with only a handful of participants that would show up at nationals.

[jazzpants]

Patty - you've always "skated" your programs, not let the costume carry the show. There's a big difference. If you can't get a feel of an interpretive program from the choreography and skating, then it's a costume contest, which unfortunately has led to the remarks by the judges that they "don't want to judge all that non-skating", and the removal of final rounds.Yes, I was gonna say that about you too PattyP!!! I've always looked forward to your interp programs b/c you always come up with interesting themes AND use your skating to tell the story!!!

I can't wait to see what you're gonna do for next year... :D

[jazzpants]

Has anyone tallied up the number of bronze level skaters at sectionals this season?

I could see pre-bronze make a case for AN if the number of skaters rivals or begins to rival that of Bronze at sectionals. Otherwise, it would just seem too few, with only a handful of participants that would show up at nationals.Let's see...

Eastern:
Bronze Ladies I: 2
Bronze Ladies II: 3
Bronze Ladies III: 5
Bronze Ladies IV: 2
Bronze Men IV: 1

Midwestern:
Bronze Ladies I/II/III: 4
Bronze Ladies IV/V: 5
Bronze Men: 2

Pacific Coast:
Bronze Ladies I/II: 5
Bronze Ladies III: 7
Bronze Ladies IV: 6
Bronze Ladies V: 4
Bronze Men I/II: 2
Bronze Men IV: 2

(Oh, dear!!! WHAT A HUGE CROWD of skaters there!!!) 8O

I still think though that Pre-Bronze could make a case. I mean it's not like 1 or 2 skaters there... there is some numbers coming up in the ranks. And if you look at the petition signatures, you'll see a LOT of Pre-Bronze skaters in the petition, so there is interest. And you don't want the numbers TOO big, b/c then it will drive the judges TOO batty!!!

But I guess we won't have to worry about Pre-Bronze skaters taking up an extra day... :roll:

[jazzpants]

Why not just switch to ISI then you could compete at any level.It really depends on the skating rink that you go to... but my rink is associated with a skating club and therefore emphasizes USFSA more than ISI. (Both my coaches strongly prefers their skaters to go USFSA after getting to a certain level in skating.)

I'll be frank though -- I've invested a lot of time into the USFSA system (pretty much my entire time that I've been skating!) and particularly this test to just dump everything and go ISI. Plus I want the discipline of doing the moves element right that USFSA provides better than ISI.

[cecealias]

So the number range for bronze sectionals is about 11-26 (ballpark).
And for pre-bronze about 5-9.

I think if you can convince more people to show up and compete PB sectionals and double the number so that it's 11-15 per section for pre-bronze, then I think you have a legitimate case to show USFSA for PB at AN.

It should be easier to do on the pacific coast.

To make a convincing case, it's definitely power in numbers that speaks the loudest, imho.
Ya guys have a lot of PR work to do now!! LOL.

[jazzpants]

Fair enough, my head hurts.Here, dcden! I'll share a bottle of Tylonol with 'ya!!! :lol: (I have a headache just reading this thread.)

Yes, let's put this thread to bed... and agree to disagree! I have other topics I'd rather be hangin' out on. ;)

[Debbie S]

I think if you can convince more people to show up and compete PB sectionals and double the number so that it's 11-15 per section for pre-bronze, then I think you have a legitimate case to show USFSA for PB at AN.That's a good point, cecealias. The one thing I would caution people to remember is that Sectionals numbers aren't always a great predictor of AN numbers, at all levels - well, except for the Champ events. A lot of people that go to AN don't go to Sectionals - distance factors in heavily, as do travel time and money (which are directly related to distance). If Sectionals is not being held close by, then a lot of skaters (other than the skaters trying to qualify for Champ events at AN) are inclined to skip it and save their skating comp budget money for AN.

[LoopLoop]

A lot of people that go to AN don't go to Sectionals - distance factors in heavily, as do travel time and money (which are directly related to distance). If Sectionals is not being held close by, then a lot of skaters (other than the skaters trying to qualify for Champ events at AN) are inclined to skip it and save their skating comp budget money for AN.
I think that this is especially true on the east coast; we're lucky to have other all-adult competitions in which to participate during the season (Peach Classic, Halloween Classic, New Year's Invitational). These events have drawn more participants than sectionals so far, so for many of us, it seems unnecessary to spending the time and money to travel to sectionals.

It seems that more skaters go to sectionals in other parts of the country where there aren't as many all-adult options.

[flo]

Loops, very true. It's also responsible for the decline in adult participation at the local kid/adult combined events. Chesapeake Open use to be the one to go to, but now I do tend to support adult only events.

I'm for putting this one to bed, or to the bar.

[NoVa Sk8r]

Uh, wrong. In Champ. Masters you had Kim Sailer, Beth Delano, and Jenny Wall, two of whom were in Champ Masters Ladies in 2005 (and Beth's been in ANs Masters Ladies 10 years in a row), and one of whom has been in every Champ Masters Ladies except 2005. Sicne there were only 7 Masters ladies total in O'dorf, and from memory the winner was French and another was canadian, I'd say the ANs Masters Ladies were well represented.

Not that I disagree with your overall argument, but wanted to set the record straight on the fact that we had quite a few there.You're right. I meant none ot the medalists from championship masters were at O'dorf. Sorry for the kun-fyu-zhun.