Gee....

[SDFanatic]

I make one reply and the thread gets closed.

Anyways, I've been off the ice for some time as I've been working on my mom's house most of the winter. It's so bad I only skated for 45min in one month.

But her house is almost done and I'll be starting my summer job soon so I'll have some time again to get some ice under my feet.

I also have new boots, after my visit to Chicago and talking to a few people including "Ask Mr. Edge" himself, it was found there were too many problems with my boots to correct. One item was that my left sole was not level, and also due to some pronation, my boots broke down incorrectly.

So I headed over to NY and was fitted with some new Klingbeils, I have no idea how there going to do yet as I've only been in them for those 45min so far!

I also finally did my first competition at Wyandot with Chandra in a pairs interp program, it was some fun, maybe next year will be better.

And of course I'm still without a coach, but nothing new there, even the PSA won't enforce their own rules on this issue, typical.

AN was a lot of fun, was great to meet so many people, just forgive me as I'm terrible with names and faces for a little while at least. I was surprised to be the only Platinum level sponsor, you only needed to give $100 for that level, I did send them more then that, just surprized I was the only one. I also bought a few competitors party tickets to be given out and I sent Sara the last of her money to cover her expenses.

Not sure what I'm going to do for next year yet, it's still a ways away, but should always start early for such things, at least this time I could drive there.

Steven

[mikawendy]

The reason the thread was closed was not posted, so you may be jumping to conclusions, SDFanatic. It could have been because of the intolerant response made to your post rather than your post itself....

[SDFanatic]

The reason the thread was closed was not posted, so you may be jumping to conclusions, SDFanatic. It could have been because of the intolerant response made to your post rather than your post itself....

Very true, I've been informed that it's been closed for two accounts, mine is somewhat the reason as we know the heated discussions it causes. The majority steams from another post in the same thread.

Hoopefully we can avoid some things and just talk, forgive me?

Steven

[Isk8NYC]

Sorry. I forgot to post the reason. I'll take care of it.

In the meantime, talk amongst yourselves.

[Isk8NYC]

The majority steams from another post in the same thread.Hey! Keep it "G" ! :lol:

[SDFanatic]

Hey! Keep it "G" ! :lol:

Erps!

Steven

[flippet]

Steven!!! Hey, dude, good to see ya back around these parts! 8-)

[mikawendy]

Steven!!! Hey, dude, good to see ya back around these parts! 8-)

Yes, Steven, I meant to say the same thing when I was replying earlier to your post, but I was in a hurry... Good to see you posting again! :D

[AW1]

Sorry I hope I wasn't the one who deemed the thread as doomed by posting in it. I'm a very nice (and tolerant) person honestly :halo: - so Nice to meet you Steven!

[SDFanatic]

Hi flippet!

Hi mikawendy!

Hi AW1!

I'm sorry too, I've just been so busy with so many things as of late, mostly with my moms house. Those of you who don't know, my dad passed away in May, since the house has been in an uncompleted remodel stage for the past 20 years, my mom asked for it to be finished. As such, thats what I've been spending a lot of my freetime on, I still have some work to do as she wants a shower and sink downstairs and I still have to finish the wiring for the telephones and computers.

Then on the weekends I've been spending time catching up on my own stuff as well as all the advocacy I need to keep pushing for fair treatment. So far I either get nothing or they give the ladies more freedoms and skip mine.

And AW1, I sure wish I was a female trapped in a mans body, then I'd have a reason to go through all the stuff to change who I am. But my brain isn't working that way so I'm just a guy who wears skirts like they used to before pants were invented.

If you dare to read some of my babble, head over to www.maleequality.org I've also reprinted the newspaper article about me at http://gotedge.net/content/view/16/34/

And if you really want to read some things, do a search over at fsuniverse about me and the slippery slope article (I read through the whole thing again the other day, boy did I write back then!)

I make no promises, but I'll try to post more, seeing as Yahoo! deleted all my groups and profiles saying I violated their terms of service, which so far they have failed to prove. As such I have to scour elsewhere for my skating fix, lol.

Steven

[AW1]

And AW1, I sure wish I was a female trapped in a mans body, then I'd have a reason to go through all the stuff to change who I am. But my brain isn't working that way so I'm just a guy who wears skirts like they used to before pants were invented.

haha! Steven, sorry for the analogy, I was just trying to push a point. I know one guy who lives in the Netherlands, who does classical ballet, and does all the things that the girls do, including pointe work and wearing ballet leotard & skirt/tights to class because he feels he needs to. And he's not gay and he's not a woman trapped in a mans body he simply is a cross-dresser. He just feels like he needs to do it that way. While I can't say I completely understand his decision to do it, I do respect that he's made that choice and admire him for standing up for what he believes in.

And anyway there's heaps of guys in skirts in Scotland! :lol:

[Isk8NYC]

Sorry I hope I wasn't the one who deemed the thread as doomed by posting in it. I'm a very nice (and tolerant) person honestly :halo: - so Nice to meet you Steven! Nope. The thread had come full-circle and the original question was answered, so I closed it before it went off-topic. I'm glad Steven opened this thread - it's much nicer, I think.

[Added:] The thread closing had nothing to do with intolerant posts. C'mon, I'm from NY - I would have told you off if you were out of line! Steven - do you want me to move the relevant posts from the other thread to here?

[SDFanatic]

haha! Steven, sorry for the analogy, I was just trying to push a point. I know one guy who lives in the Netherlands, who does classical ballet, and does all the things that the girls do, including pointe work and wearing ballet leotard & skirt/tights to class because he feels he needs to. And he's not gay and he's not a woman trapped in a mans body he simply is a cross-dresser. He just feels like he needs to do it that way. While I can't say I completely understand his decision to do it, I do respect that he's made that choice and admire him for standing up for what he believes in.

And anyway there's heaps of guys in skirts in Scotland! :lol:

Ok, I'm going to try and keep this short, I have a bad habit of making them long!

The guy in the Netherlands is not crossdressing, leotards were inveted by a man for men to wear, it just never caught on for males to show off their body in such a way. Even for a skirt, males used to wear them all the time and only males were in the performing arts and some males portrayed females, In fact, the tutu was orginaly a male garment and males also wore tights (even before females I think)

I hate the term crossdressing, it only applies to males, a female can put on her boyfriend or hubbies clothes and walk out the door and nobody cares. But if the boyfriend or hubby goes out the door wearing his girlfriends or wifes clothes, he supposedly has some major issues.

One more thing, be careful telling a Scot that he's wearing a skirt, they honestly don't like it being described that way.

Steven

[AW1]

The guy in the Netherlands is not crossdressing
It's cool I think that's where he was coming from since all ballet dancers USED to be male until not that long ago and used to wear that attire. I only call it cross-dressing, since this is the term he uses to refer to it - I suppose for simplification.

One more thing, be careful telling a Scot that he's wearing a skirt, they honestly don't like it being described that way. Ahh!! :lol: I know this too well, my hubby's maternal family are Scots and yes, they are funny about the ol' kilts.

Ok should I open my mouth and change feet yet? :lol:

[VegasGirl]

The reason the thread was closed was not posted, so you may be jumping to conclusions, SDFanatic. It could have been because of the intolerant response made to your post rather than your post itself....

Nothing intolerant about it, just curious... I honestly had no idea that there are men out there skating as women. What I do know is that there are tons of jokers on the net... just wanted to know what I was dealing with. I'm relatively new to this forum, apparently Steven hasn't posted here in a while, so how was I supposed to know who he and his story is?

[dooobedooo]

In the past, Steven had a history of hijacking threads, so I am very pleased to see that he now has a thread of his very own. :)

Welcome back, Steven!

[SDFanatic]

Hey!

I never intentionaly try to hijack threads!

I replied to the thread and stayed on topic, it was the other message(s) that were starting to diverge, course perpetuating it doesn't help, but it was closed before that happened.

Steven

[SDFanatic]

Ok should I open my mouth and change feet yet? :lol:

Not if you have your skates on!

Steven

[flippet]

Nothing intolerant about it, just curious... I honestly had no idea that there are men out there skating as women. What I do know is that there are tons of jokers on the net... just wanted to know what I was dealing with. I'm relatively new to this forum, apparently Steven hasn't posted here in a while, so how was I supposed to know who he and his story is?

You're not...it's okay. Steven's pretty cool about it--he knows that it's unusual, and expects questions and comments. And actually, he's not 'skating as a woman'...he's a guy, he skates as a guy, he just chooses to skate in clothing that females usually choose. That's all. :)

[sk8er1964]

Seeing Steven's posts on line at first, I was a bit 8O . But getting to know him on line, and then later in person, I found out that Steven is pretty darn cool. He's a truly giving, caring person who loves our sport and the people in it. 8-) It's too bad people can't seem to get past the appearances.

[VegasGirl]

It's too bad people can't seem to get past the appearances.

There is another side to that too though... why not fit in better? Especially if you see that your appearance is getting in the way of something that is important to you...

[SDFanatic]

There is another side to that too though... why not fit in better? Especially if you see that your appearance is getting in the way of something that is important to you...

Should overweight people have to become skinny? Should African Americans become white? Should blondes dye their hair? Should disabled people stay at home?

I've been told I should compromise, but some people give me either/or, that is not a compromise. Even now however if I were to look "normal" I am still discriminated against, and where will it stop if I do? Will I then be told I have to wear black boots? Then black pants? Then white or black shirts? Will I also then be told that I'm not allowed to do certain elements as only females should do them?

I've seen so many people start and then stop skating due to being hard, falling down, or other various reasons. Yet here I am after three years of detrimental actions by others still skating. I'm lucky to be me as if I was any other kind of person I would have given up skating a long time ago due to the bigotry that exists in this area.

It's ok that coaches don't want to take my money, I used it to be a platinum sponser of Adult Nationals and I paid all of Sara's expenses to attend. I also bought all kinds of stuffies to throw and I brought Chandra with me to enjoy the experience, I also give money to local skaters to help with their expenses.

My first coach was hassled quite a bit, even before I became her student, she ended up getting out of skating and now works at a fitness club. My second coach at my summer rink had no issues in coaching me, she did ask and I told her about it, and she was ok with it. When I returned the next summer I asked for lessons again and she told me pants only or no lessons. My third trainer was a body dynamics coach, she herself told me she was blacklisted because she would not bow down to others. As such, she didn't have a problem with my attire, yet three lessons later she refuses to return my phone calls and hangs up when I am able to talk to her on the phone.

Skating is not about skating, I've proven that fact, females have much more freedom to express themselves while males such as myself are denied any form of being non-traditional.

So VegasGirl, does one have to become something their not to be accepted? Or should one be able to be themselves in a sport where such a thing is allowed?

Steven

[blue111moon]

Steven, we've been through this before.

To me, the issue is how badly do you want a coach? Seems to me that you're putting your personal clothing preferences above your desire for coaching and then blaming coaches for not meeting your standards when you flatly refuse to meet theirs.

Thefact remains that figure skating as a sport is a pretty conservative, traditional activity and the people who participate in it tend to be the same. There are rules governing clothing and, whether you agree with them or not, they have to followed if you want to participate in the sport.

I'm also beginning to wonder if it's not so much the clothing issue that's driving coaches away from you, but possibly something in your attitude, which comes across to me as rather "my way or the highway". It looks as if you just don't want a coach all that badly if you're not willing to compromise at all. How about agreeing to wear pants for your lesson and then wear whatever you want on practice?

And, IMO, a choice of clothing is far from being in the same league with race as an issue for discrimination. Clothing is a choice and something that can be changed depending on the situation. Race cannot.

[luna_skater]

Steven, we've been through this before.

To me, the issue is how badly do you want a coach? Seems to me that you're putting your personal clothing preferences above your desire for coaching and then blaming coaches for not meeting your standards when you flatly refuse to meet theirs.

Thefact remains that figure skating as a sport is a pretty conservative, traditional activity and the people who participate in it tend to be the same. There are rules governing clothing and, whether you agree with them or not, they have to followed if you want to participate in the sport.

I'm also beginning to wonder if it's not so much the clothing issue that's driving coaches away from you, but possibly something in your attitude, which comes across to me as rather "my way or the highway". It looks as if you just don't want a coach all that badly if you're not willing to compromise at all. How about agreeing to wear pants for your lesson and then wear whatever you want on practice?

And, IMO, a choice of clothing is far from being in the same league with race as an issue for discrimination. Clothing is a choice and something that can be changed depending on the situation. Race cannot.

ITA.

Steven, could you not agree to wear pants for lessons, and dresses/skirts for your own practice time?

ETA: Oops; I missed that blue111moon already suggested that!

[flippet]

There are rules governing clothing and, whether you agree with them or not, they have to followed if you want to participate in the sport.

The rules govern competition, not lessons or practice. If he wants to take lessons in a dress, I don't see why that should be a problem. Honest to goodness, it's just fabric.

[Isk8NYC]

While browsing Riedell's "Spotted!" page (http://www.riedellskates.com/spotted/0406.html), I found out about an upcoming movie called "Blades of Glory" (http://imdb.com/title/tt0445934/). A loophole to allow same-gender pairs to skate? Doubtful, at best.

[flippet]

While browsing Riedell's "Spotted!" page (http://www.riedellskates.com/spotted/0406.html), I found out about an upcoming movie called "Blades of Glory" (http://imdb.com/title/tt0445934/). A loophole to allow same-gender pairs to skate? Doubtful, at best.

I just saw a photo from that--Will Ferrell was totally wearing double-runners. :lol::lol::lol:

[SDFanatic]

Steven, we've been through this before.

To me, the issue is how badly do you want a coach? Seems to me that you're putting your personal clothing preferences above your desire for coaching and then blaming coaches for not meeting your standards when you flatly refuse to meet theirs.

Thefact remains that figure skating as a sport is a pretty conservative, traditional activity and the people who participate in it tend to be the same. There are rules governing clothing and, whether you agree with them or not, they have to followed if you want to participate in the sport.

I'm also beginning to wonder if it's not so much the clothing issue that's driving coaches away from you, but possibly something in your attitude, which comes across to me as rather "my way or the highway". It looks as if you just don't want a coach all that badly if you're not willing to compromise at all. How about agreeing to wear pants for your lesson and then wear whatever you want on practice?

And, IMO, a choice of clothing is far from being in the same league with race as an issue for discrimination. Clothing is a choice and something that can be changed depending on the situation. Race cannot.

Ok blue111moon, since someone (I wont mention who) petitioned the ISU and the USFSA to allow females to compete in trousers, lets apply this restriction to you.

You go out in a skirt one day and to get some gas, the attendant on duty says sorry, we don't have any gas. Meanwhile another female customer comes in and she is allowed to get gas, you ask, "what about her?" and the attendant says she's allowed to get gas since she's wearing trousers. Then a man shows up wearing a skirt and he's allowed to get gas, now your really perplexed and ask again. The attendant says "He's a man, we don't care what they wear when they get gas" Ok, so your a little miffed, you go to station after station looking for gas and nobody will sell you any.

But finally, two hundred miles from home, you find a station that thinks it's silly that someone wouldn't sell you gas just because your wearing a skirt. You do some more searching and find that it's most true, only the stations around your house are the ones who impose only females in trousers can get gas.

So after a little while of getting fed up with having to go so far to be treated fairly, you go and get gas localy one day wearing trousers. They say "sorry, no sale" And why may you ask? They won't sell you any gas because they know you wear skirts when your not getting gas.

You have no idea as some time ago, Amelia Jenkins Bloomer said it was hogwash for females to only be allowed to wear skirts. Because of her and others, you have the right to wear trousers or skirts and not face detrimental actions by others for doing so. And as I said, you can even compete in trousers or a unitard if you so wish, not even males get that choice.

Another example, not skating related, I tagged along with two friends of mine to a bar, one male, one female. Male was wearing a tank top and shorts and open toed shoes, female was wearing a cami top, jeans, and tennis shoes. My male friend was asked to change his shirt and shoes while my female friend was not. It's not untypical to see a female wearing bikini tops, micro minis, and open toed shoes and nobody cares, while a male is told to cover more or leave. On top of that females get the privlige of ladies night and pay less for their drinks while males are not allowed this freedom.

Staying out of skating, have you ever been to a formal party or wedding? Why is it that all the males dress alike and all the females dress differently? (except for bridesmaids) And lets not even get into if two females show up wearing the same thing! And of course you have the Oscars and Emmy awards in which all the females are on the spotlight as to what they are wearing, while little if any attention is given to the males who mostly wear the same ol styles and colors.

Back to skating, I argued the point with one club that I could do an artistic event and wear a skirt since there are less restriction on attire. This did little good as they soon changed the rules to say that males are not allowed to wear skirts at ANY time. Of course if I did an interp and wanted to wear a skirt, I would be compelled to go the whole nine yards and physicaly look like a female. Females however can portray anything they want and wear a skirt or trousers and nobody really thinks twice about it. In fact, they can even do it in their freeskate (think Machelle Kwan portraying a matador)

As for the rules, the USFSA does not control clubs or coaches, they only control competitions. Almost everyone falls back on this though and uses it as an excuse to stop males from wearing something other then trousers even though females wore them even though they were restricted to skirts only before the rule change. I tested in a skirt, I ended up with a retry, but I still did it, same as female who wants to test in trousers.

My attitude? Yes, perhaps it does play a part considering all the crap I've gone throgh with detrimental people and I still continue skating. I obviosly would have a better demeanor if I could just skate and be treated fairly like everyone else.

Trousers = lessons is not a compromise, a compromise would be for four days you wear trousers and on the fifth day you can wear a skirt. Does anyone want to do such a thing? No, if I was female however this wouldn't be an issue as I could wear all kinds of things including shorts! (yes, even males around here are not allowed to wear shorts on club ice)

As for race, I agree with you on this, I only use it as an African American described me as facing the same issues they do only that I could change my clothing and be accepted whereas they cannot (course I can't ether anymore no matter what I'm wearing)

I also know that you may say that females are not equal, thats why they have womens rights and such, but at least if your not treated equaly, you can do somethign about it. Unlike me who's neighbors dog has more rights then I do when it comes to equality.

So if it is all my fault, then how come I can go somewhere else and be treated fairly?

Steven

[SDFanatic]

ITA.

Steven, could you not agree to wear pants for lessons, and dresses/skirts for your own practice time?

ETA: Oops; I missed that blue111moon already suggested that!

Doesn't seem to be a choice as nobody will even talk to me.

Steven

[SDFanatic]

While browsing Riedell's "Spotted!" page (http://www.riedellskates.com/spotted/0406.html), I found out about an upcoming movie called "Blades of Glory" (http://imdb.com/title/tt0445934/). A loophole to allow same-gender pairs to skate? Doubtful, at best.

I could be wrong, but they have that here, it's called similar pairs, course I have yet to see two males doing it, I've only seen two females doing it.

Steven

[russiet]

If wearing dresses is an important part of who you are as a person, then you are taking the right road. Keep at it and don't give in.

Different things are crucially important to all of us, but it is not always as obvious as your particular preference. I guess it goes beyond preference in your case. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think that you feel you must/need to wear womens outfits while figure skating. More-over, I think you're pointing out that clothes are clothes, and that you don't look at them as gender specfic.

Did I get it?

In any event, just because I don't hold any personal importance to your preferences/cause, I understand your rights. Also realize this (I'm sure you do), you're up against strong societal repugnance. In my opinion you are unlikely to win acceptance in your lifetime.

Good luck.

Jon

[SDFanatic]

Close enough for horseshoes Jon,

It's not that I must/need to wear dresses when skating, I do wear trousers or leggings when I want, I just want the choice in being able to wear either one.

But I can also see what your saying since I won't give in that it is a "must" thing.

But you are correct when in saying that I don't think clothing is "S" specific, other then some specific requirements for certain body shapes, one could wear the other. A prime example of this is shoes, the only difference between male and female shoes is length and width, other then that one could wear the other, unless your a male fo course and society says your not allowed. Another major example is color, pink for females, blue for males, not so long ago this was opposite. And then of course skirts, both "S"'s used to wear skirts, trousers didn't exist, over the ages males lost the choice in wearing skirts, and they also lost the ability in showing off their body. Any male doing so now is percieved to be "gay" which is part of the problem with acceptance.

And very true about societal pressures, I'm not sure when it will be acceptable for males to be treated equaly and not live in fear, but hopefully one day, it will be achieved.

Steven

[AW1]

Another major example is color, pink for females, blue for males, not so long ago this was opposite.

Actually in most parts of Asia this doesn't exist still - blue & pink are not defined by sex - and you will often find baby boys wearing pink in Asia because they don't gender define them.

[beachbabe]

Close enough for horseshoes Jon,

Any male doing so now is percieved to be "gay" which is part of the problem with acceptance.


Steven

I disagree, some men can pull off wearing a pink shirt or shorts without being perceived as gay. What people msot seem to perceive as being gay is particular gestures and tones of one's voice.

[VegasGirl]

Should overweight people have to become skinny?

Aehem, better not ask me that one... :halo: :twisted:

Should African Americans become white?

I think now you're taking it a bit far with your comparison.

Should blondes dye their hair? Should disabled people stay at home?

Why should they... what reason would there be for it?

Even now however if I were to look "normal" I am still discriminated against,

How do you figure that? What gives you reason to think so?

Skating is not about skating, I've proven that fact, females have much more freedom to express themselves while males such as myself are denied any form of being non-traditional.

Excuse me, but where did you get that idea? Isn't it true that pants on women skaters are still frowned upon quite a bit? And why can't males express themselves... or put it differently, why do you think women can do so more than men?

So VegasGirl, does one have to become something their not to be accepted?

That's not what I said... I said why not fit in better... and isn't that wat the majority of us do on a daily basis?

Or should one be able to be themselves in a sport where such a thing is allowed?

I don't quite get what you're reffering to there... what thing is allowed?

Steven[/QUOTE]

[crayonskater]

Comparing wearing skating attire to being forced to change one's ancestry is making an inaccurate analogy; better would be a rule requiring business attire at work, or well, to use the gas station example: 'no shirt, no shoes, no service', or whether one can wear a yarmulke under a military hat (answer is: no, says the Supreme Court).

And in that matter, legally, you're without a leg to stand on. Private businesses and groups pretty much can enforce whatever dress codes (within reason: no race/gender/religion discrimination-proxies) they want on the premises. Uniforms, coat & tie, hair color and even makeup for women (just upheld this past year), piercings, all upheld. There's no right to personal wardrobe in the US constitution. What you do at home is fine; entering the public and commercial sphere is subject to the private individuals/groups contracting.

That said, I'm not sure why your rink is so worked up about this. But they're well within their rights, and I suspect they're worried about financial losses from concerned parents.

I'm also not sure why you're very worked up about this. I don't know if you consider yourself transgendered, enjoy wearing women's clothing, or are just doing this to rile up the authorities.

But I would suggest that many women skaters, myself included, don't own a skating skirt, so it seems that a skirt is not an essential part of 'dressing like a woman'.

Perhaps for lessons, you could wear women's style close-fitting pants and jacket, and a wrap skirt you can add on afterwards. Or just bright 'non-male' colors.

[VegasGirl]

Steven, we've been through this before.

To me, the issue is how badly do you want a coach? Seems to me that you're putting your personal clothing preferences above your desire for coaching and then blaming coaches for not meeting your standards when you flatly refuse to meet theirs.

Thefact remains that figure skating as a sport is a pretty conservative, traditional activity and the people who participate in it tend to be the same. There are rules governing clothing and, whether you agree with them or not, they have to followed if you want to participate in the sport.

I'm also beginning to wonder if it's not so much the clothing issue that's driving coaches away from you, but possibly something in your attitude, which comes across to me as rather "my way or the highway". It looks as if you just don't want a coach all that badly if you're not willing to compromise at all. How about agreeing to wear pants for your lesson and then wear whatever you want on practice?

And, IMO, a choice of clothing is far from being in the same league with race as an issue for discrimination. Clothing is a choice and something that can be changed depending on the situation. Race cannot.

Very well said!

[VegasGirl]

The rules govern competition, not lessons or practice. If he wants to take lessons in a dress, I don't see why that should be a problem. Honest to goodness, it's just fabric.

Unless he can't find a coach who will take him...

[Schmeck]

Well, the coach has a right to chose his/her students, correct? While I empathize with the situation, I also think there is more to the problem than what the skater wants to wear at this point. Bridges have probably been burned?

[VegasGirl]

Another example, not skating related, I tagged along with two friends of mine to a bar, one male, one female. Male was wearing a tank top and shorts and open toed shoes, female was wearing a cami top, jeans, and tennis shoes. My male friend was asked to change his shirt and shoes while my female friend was not. It's not untypical to see a female wearing bikini tops, micro minis, and open toed shoes and nobody cares, while a male is told to cover more or leave.

And why do you think is that?
It's because men like to see women in those kind of clothes. ;)

On top of that females get the privlige of ladies night and pay less for their drinks while males are not allowed this freedom.

That has nothing at all to do with freedom but simply with supply and demand. The businesses in question need to attract more female customers to make their male customers happy and so they offer incentives... that's all.

Staying out of skating, have you ever been to a formal party or wedding? Why is it that all the males dress alike and all the females dress differently?

You tell me?
How many men do you know who would like to see that change? Apparently not enough because otherwise it would change... I for one often times envie the guys for it... would be nice not to have to worry about what to wear...

And of course you have the Oscars and Emmy awards in which all the females are on the spotlight as to what they are wearing, while little if any attention is given to the males who mostly wear the same ol styles and colors.

Now that's not true at all. They always show what the guys are wearing too and there's differences there too, granted a bit more subtle but they always point them out. It's simply a matter of preference...

Back to skating, I argued the point with one club that I could do an artistic event and wear a skirt since there are less restriction on attire. This did little good as they soon changed the rules to say that males are not allowed to wear skirts at ANY time.

I can see their point very well... afterall which business likes to be ridiculed for their decisions? And that's IMHO exactly what would hapen if they'd let you skate in a dress especially at a competition... that couldn't possibly be in your interest either, could it?
And let's face it... a male doing an artistic program in a skirt would be more than just silly... now, if you were to do a comical spotlight routine that would be a different story... have you tried that route?

I obviosly would have a better demeanor if I could just skate and be treated fairly like everyone else.

And that's just it... you can skate and you can be treated fairly, you yourself choose not to!

Trousers = lessons is not a compromise, a compromise would be for four days you wear trousers and on the fifth day you can wear a skirt. Does anyone want to do such a thing? No, if I was female however this wouldn't be an issue as I could wear all kinds of things including shorts!

Well, welcome to our world!!!

[VegasGirl]

I disagree, some men can pull off wearing a pink shirt or shorts without being perceived as gay. What people msot seem to perceive as being gay is particular gestures and tones of one's voice.

I agree and if any of you have teenage boys you probably know that pink was the color to wear a year or two ago. My son had bright pink laces in his skater shoes, wore pink jelly bracelets and had shirts with bright pink print. One of the shirts he was concidering was pink and read "Real men wear pink". During that same time frame pink polos for guys were all the rage and many young men wore them without looking a hair gay. As you correctly stated, people don't perceive men to be gay simply by the clothes they wear but rather by the way they portray themselves.

[SDFanatic]

Actually in most parts of Asia this doesn't exist still - blue & pink are not defined by sex - and you will often find baby boys wearing pink in Asia because they don't gender define them.

Thanks, I should have pointed out that most of what I'm talking about applies to western society and the detrimental actions related to skating mostly confined to the Cleveland, OH area.

Steven

[skaternum]

This whole discussion has been played out umpteen times on various boards, forums, lists, etc. and it's always the same arguments over and over. And it usually starts the same way: Steven finds a way to slip into a thread that he wears dresses on the ice, somebody who doesn't know him is surprised, Steven gets to post an explanation, and next thing you know, we've got a 10 page thread and irritated admins.

I've pretty much kept my mouth shut in all the other 100 previous threads, but I think I'll throw in my 2 cents. I've gotta disagree with ya, Steven. Everyone, at some time or another, has to decide how much we're willing to conform to society's norms. You have consciously decided not to conform to the "men wear pants" norm on the ice. As a result you're facing the consequences of your choice: can't find a coach, not allowed on freestyles, etc. while violating the norm. In short, you have chosen your principles over skating, which is fine because it's your choice. But stop complaining, then, about having to face the consequences of your choce. And stop declaring that you're being discriminated against. It isn't discrimination There is no legal right to wear anything you want anywhere you want. What you're experiencing is merely society enforcing what it sees as its norms (regardless of how wise or silly they are), which you have intentionally chosen to violate. You've chosen this path, so now you have to walk it.

[techskater]

Actually, that rule doesn't govern interp costumes. Steven wore a beautiful dress for couples interp with Chandra at Wyandotte. PAUL MATA wore a TUTU for couples interp in the SAME EVENT (and who could ever imagine Paul doing that! :lol: :o ) and Joe Decker won a Silver Medal in Masters Interp at AN's dressed as Heidi.

I understand why some coaches refuse to provide lessons to Steven - they kowtow to peer pressure and parent pressure. Is that right? No. If you lived in Chicago, you'd have any number of coaches, myself included. Does that do you good living in Ohio? No. Keep looking, you'll find someone who will take the plunge. Good luck!

[SDFanatic]

Should African Americans become white?

I think now you're taking it a bit far with your comparison.
True, but given all thats been said, wouldn't that be the rational thing to do to gain "acceptance" and fit in?

Should blondes dye their hair? Should disabled people stay at home?

Why should they... what reason would there be for it?

You answerd that yourself, because they don't fit in, blondes are always picked on because of their hair color and disabled people are not "normal" compared to the vast majority of the population.

Even now however if I were to look "normal" I am still discriminated against,

How do you figure that? What gives you reason to think so?

Because I've advertised for a coach and interested people have called me, but after I gave them my name, they hang up.

Skating is not about skating, I've proven that fact, females have much more freedom to express themselves while males such as myself are denied any form of being non-traditional.

Excuse me, but where did you get that idea? Isn't it true that pants on women skaters are still frowned upon quite a bit? And why can't males express themselves...

Pants may be frowned upon, but you do have the choice, males are flatly denied the choice of such a freedom.

Males can't express themselves because of societal pressures and rules put into place to limit a males ability to express themselves. On top of that many males (and females) stereotype males into only being allowed to do certain things. Figure skating is such a female dominated sport that males taking it up are bullied for doing so and switch to other "manly" endeavors where they will not be ridiculed. I could talk about all kinds of males who are no longer in the sport due to the harrasment they get for just thinking or participating in figure skating. Most of the holdbacks for males stems mostly from other males and societal norms "thats the way it's always been" type mentality.

or put it differently, why do you think women can do so more than men?

Because a female doing it is thought as to bettering herself while a male doing it is thought to becoming subservant. No-one can deny the opression females face in life, they get paid lower wages, have to prove themselves more capable and generaly have to be better educated then their male counterparts to be treated with some kind of fairness. In rare cases one could argue physical limitations, but I've seen some females (and some of my female employees) that I'd pit against any typical male. We could go on an on with this and name many more examples, females can do "and" males are usually allowed to do "or".


So VegasGirl, does one have to become something their not to be accepted?

That's not what I said... I said why not fit in better... and isn't that wat the majority of us do on a daily basis?

So if we don't fit in, such discrimination should be allowed then?


Or should one be able to be themselves in a sport where such a thing is allowed?

I don't quite get what you're reffering to there... what thing is allowed?

The ability of self expression, what other sport is there where one can coose their own music, wear clothing that fits their selection, and within the limits of their level, express themselves?

One is not trying to put a ball in a hoop, over a net, or in a hole, put puck in a net, complete a lap, or countless other ways to be scored.

Other then synchro and pairs, skating is pretty much an individualistic sport, its about the person, not a team or how many points they get.

And it is also why I like to watch interpretive events.

Steven

[SDFanatic]

Comparing wearing skating attire to being forced to change one's ancestry is making an inaccurate analogy; better would be a rule requiring business attire at work, or well, to use the gas station example: 'no shirt, no shoes, no service', or whether one can wear a yarmulke under a military hat (answer is: no, says the Supreme Court).

But should such attire rules specify as to what "S" can wear what?

Buisness attire, females in the past were forced to wear skirts, society and all, but now females can wear trousers and even ties and nobody blinks an eye. But if a male says he doesn't want to wear a tie (http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=News&id=177257), or would like to wear skirt (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3129401.stm), he can get fired.

And while a gas station could say "no shirt, no shoes, no service" it cannot say "no men in skirts allowed"

And in that matter, legally, you're without a leg to stand on. Private businesses and groups pretty much can enforce whatever dress codes (within reason: no race/gender/religion discrimination-proxies) they want on the premises. Uniforms, coat & tie, hair color and even makeup for women (just upheld this past year), piercings, all upheld. There's no right to personal wardrobe in the US constitution. What you do at home is fine; entering the public and commercial sphere is subject to the private individuals/groups contracting.

That falls under public accomidation, most private clubs are not private even though they say they are and most rules only restrict attire when it comes to safety. And true the US Constitution does not protect ones wardrobe, but there are some states like New Jersey (http://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcr/law.html) that make it illegal to discriminate between the "S"'s in any form.

That said, I'm not sure why your rink is so worked up about this. But they're well within their rights, and I suspect they're worried about financial losses from concerned parents.

I haven't had too many problems with rinks, I've had to argue my case at times, but it usually hasn't been an issue. Financial loss would be something to consider and mostly comes to awareness.

I'm also not sure why you're very worked up about this. I don't know if you consider yourself transgendered, enjoy wearing women's clothing, or are just doing this to rile up the authorities.

Ack, this for some reason is such a hard idea to grasp, it's just something I like, I don't see as to why I'm supposed to be restriced in what I wear just because I'm a male.

But I would suggest that many women skaters, myself included, don't own a skating skirt, so it seems that a skirt is not an essential part of 'dressing like a woman'.

Wasn't true not that long ago.

Perhaps for lessons, you could wear women's style close-fitting pants and jacket, and a wrap skirt you can add on afterwards. Or just bright 'non-male' colors.

I already explained this once, compromise should be a two way street.

Steven

[Mrs Redboots]

You know what - it would be nice if we all could wear whatever we liked and nobody would fuss. Unfortunately, skating isn't like that. Women ice dancers are still required to wear a skirt when competing and testing, which means that at least one Moslem skater I know felt she was discriminated against.

When I was growing up, I was taught that you can please some of the people all of the time, and quite possibly all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time, and you're an idiot to try!

[SDFanatic]

Another example, not skating related, I tagged along with two friends of mine to a bar, one male, one female. Male was wearing a tank top and shorts and open toed shoes, female was wearing a cami top, jeans, and tennis shoes. My male friend was asked to change his shirt and shoes while my female friend was not. It's not untypical to see a female wearing bikini tops, micro minis, and open toed shoes and nobody cares, while a male is told to cover more or leave.

And why do you think is that?
It's because men like to see women in those kind of clothes. ;)

And some women like to see me in the clothing I choose, with such mentality it's no wonder a female is treated like a piece of meat instead of a human being.

On top of that females get the privlige of ladies night and pay less for their drinks while males are not allowed this freedom.

That has nothing at all to do with freedom but simply with supply and demand. The businesses in question need to attract more female customers to make their male customers happy and so they offer incentives... that's all.

Umm, no, if you were to do some research it's to attract more males as supposedly there will be more females due to the reduced drink rates. It's still discrimination.

Staying out of skating, have you ever been to a formal party or wedding? Why is it that all the males dress alike and all the females dress differently?

You tell me?
How many men do you know who would like to see that change? Apparently not enough because otherwise it would change... I for one often times envie the guys for it... would be nice not to have to worry about what to wear...

"We've always done it this way and see no reason to change"

It will change, sooner or later as I'm not the only male on this planet who thinks a males choice of attire is too narrowly defined.

"Life can be lived more fully if people simply quit pretending to be who they were told to be, and be who they really are…" -Doug Firebaugh-

And of course you have the Oscars and Emmy awards in which all the females are on the spotlight as to what they are wearing, while little if any attention is given to the males who mostly wear the same ol styles and colors.

Now that's not true at all. They always show what the guys are wearing too and there's differences there too, granted a bit more subtle but they always point them out. It's simply a matter of preference...

We'll have to agree to disagree, the amount of coverage and attention the males get pales in comparison to what females get.

Back to skating, I argued the point with one club that I could do an artistic event and wear a skirt since there are less restriction on attire. This did little good as they soon changed the rules to say that males are not allowed to wear skirts at ANY time.

I can see their point very well... afterall which business likes to be ridiculed for their decisions? And that's IMHO exactly what would hapen if they'd let you skate in a dress especially at a competition... that couldn't possibly be in your interest either, could it?
And let's face it... a male doing an artistic program in a skirt would be more than just silly... now, if you were to do a comical spotlight routine that would be a different story... have you tried that route?

I've already given an example of this, it's only wrong because thinking makes it so.

And why should I be restricted to only certain events for my self expression? Oh, thats right, I'm a male, were not allowed.

I obviosly would have a better demeanor if I could just skate and be treated fairly like everyone else.

And that's just it... you can skate and you can be treated fairly, you yourself choose not to!

Um, no, it's the detrimental actions of others. (sorry, I'm just funny that I treat everyone equal until they do something that makes me think otherwise so you can stop at the "it's because you wear a skirt" spiel)

Trousers = lessons is not a compromise, a compromise would be for four days you wear trousers and on the fifth day you can wear a skirt. Does anyone want to do such a thing? No, if I was female however this wouldn't be an issue as I could wear all kinds of things including shorts!

Well, welcome to our world!!!

Huh? Umm, no, I'm quite happy being a male.

Steven

[SDFanatic]

Well, the coach has a right to chose his/her students, correct? While I empathize with the situation, I also think there is more to the problem than what the skater wants to wear at this point. Bridges have probably been burned?

The only reason I can come up with a bridge being burned is because I choose nontraditional attire, anything more then that I cannot say as everyone around here refuses to talk to me.

Steven

[SDFanatic]

This whole discussion has been played out umpteen times on various boards, forums, lists, etc. and it's always the same arguments over and over. And it usually starts the same way: Steven finds a way to slip into a thread that he wears dresses on the ice, somebody who doesn't know him is surprised, Steven gets to post an explanation, and next thing you know, we've got a 10 page thread and irritated admins.

I've pretty much kept my mouth shut in all the other 100 previous threads, but I think I'll throw in my 2 cents. I've gotta disagree with ya, Steven. Everyone, at some time or another, has to decide how much we're willing to conform to society's norms. You have consciously decided not to conform to the "men wear pants" norm on the ice. As a result you're facing the consequences of your choice: can't find a coach, not allowed on freestyles, etc. while violating the norm. In short, you have chosen your principles over skating, which is fine because it's your choice. But stop complaining, then, about having to face the consequences of your choce. And stop declaring that you're being discriminated against. It isn't discrimination There is no legal right to wear anything you want anywhere you want. What you're experiencing is merely society enforcing what it sees as its norms (regardless of how wise or silly they are), which you have intentionally chosen to violate. You've chosen this path, so now you have to walk it.

Ahh yes, the hijacked thread scenario, well I started this one and yes I hijack my own threads. I try not to hijack other threads but because people (and myself) are so wound up about, it just happens. (maybe next time we can get a moderator to move it?)

As for the norm, why is this so? And why can't it be changed? Not too long ago we used to walk ten paces to solve our disagrements. We've become a bit more civilized since then, why can't we be more tolerant of a males choice of attire?

As for legality, I disagree, soiciety may say as to what "S" should wear what, but legality will step in and enforce that opinion (yes, OPINION!)

I marched in the Million Skirted Men march in NY a couple years ago, some males said they wanted the right to wear a skirt. but I disagree, our right to wear a skirt is not denied by law, only by societal pressures and perceived norms.

Females often don't get equal pay just because they are a female, that was a societal norm, but now it is a right and a law to get equal pay. (yes, yes, I know equal pay and treatment does not exist everywhere, it does exist with me however)

Males should have the same right to equal treatment no matter their choice of attire. So does such equal treatment need to be made into law? Or can we, as a society, accept people who do not fit into the norm? Obviosly we cannot.

And lets stop with the nonsense that one chooses their clothing but can't change their "S" or ancestry. Equality of attire can't be true when females can wear anything males can while males cannot wear anything females can even when such things were made specificaly for males!

For males to be discriminted against for such a choice is pathetic.

Steven

[SDFanatic]

You know what - it would be nice if we all could wear whatever we liked and nobody would fuss. Unfortunately, skating isn't like that. Women ice dancers are still required to wear a skirt when competing and testing, which means that at least one Moslem skater I know felt she was discriminated against.

When I was growing up, I was taught that you can please some of the people all of the time, and quite possibly all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time, and you're an idiot to try!

Actually as stated, "ladies competing in any adult competition may wear trousers if they so choose" What once was the norm is no longer.

Also as someone stated, skirts are not a requirement when testing, such restrictions are perceived, not in black and white.

As for pleasing, I do understand that concept, been there, done that, and obviosly writing about it.

Steven

[skaternum]

I am neither opposing nor defending the norm. I will not get into that argument. I am simplying saying that by choosing to go against it, you have chosen a path that you know is rocky. Stop whining about it.

And yes, you started this thread. Because the other one got hijacked. You always manage to find a way to get this discussion started. You just can't resist slipping in a comment about your dresses into some other discussion. It comes across as attention-seeking. That's why threads get locked and you get cautioned by admins about posting about your skating attire. Same old, same old.

[SDFanatic]

Actually, that rule doesn't govern interp costumes. Steven wore a beautiful dress for couples interp with Chandra at Wyandotte. PAUL MATA wore a TUTU for couples interp in the SAME EVENT (and who could ever imagine Paul doing that! :lol: :o ) and Joe Decker won a Silver Medal in Masters Interp at AN's dressed as Heidi.

I understand why some coaches refuse to provide lessons to Steven - they kowtow to peer pressure and parent pressure. Is that right? No. If you lived in Chicago, you'd have any number of coaches, myself included. Does that do you good living in Ohio? No. Keep looking, you'll find someone who will take the plunge. Good luck!

Ahh, yes, but of course if one did not have such music to interpet to, would a male then face deductions for wearing a skirt? Most likely, while a female could wear a skirt or trousers, if the music didn't warrant it, and not face any penalty for doing so. In fact one could give many examples where a female is skating in a skirt that trousers would be acceptable. But before the rule change this was not the norm so it was ok.

Now with the rule change females can do either or, and then some, and most likely not get penalized. We all know this will take some time since it is such a judgemental and traditional sport. Any female flexing her clothing options will most likely face some discrimination for doing so and most likely will choose the more traditional and safer route.

And as I'll mention again, the detrimental actions I face are mostly from my area, going to nationals and talking with different people has reinforced this along with all the other people who stop and talk to me about my choice in attire.

And yes, Chicago was a nice place to visit, I even received a personal card from one of the rinks saying to come and skate anytime I'm in the area.

Steven

[SDFanatic]

I am neither opposing nor defending the norm. I will not get into that argument. I am simplying saying that by choosing to go against it, you have chosen a path that you know is rocky. Stop whining about it.

And yes, you started this thread. Because the other one got hijacked. You always manage to find a way to get this discussion started. You just can't resist slipping in a comment about your dresses into some other discussion. It comes across as attention-seeking. That's why threads get locked and you get cautioned by admins about posting about your skating attire. Same old, same old.

If someone like me doesn't whine, how can one ever expect the norm to change?

Someone wined that females should be allowed to compete in trousers, now it is the norm. (ok, maybe not the norm, but they now have the freedom of choice)

As for thread hijacking, I state again that I did not hijack that thread! I replied to the question at hand and did not deviate from it. It was others who started going off on a tangent, I cannot be held responsable for this and the thread was closed before I could properly stop it.

And for it being locked, contact Isk8NYC as to exactly why, it was not entirely from the replies caused by my answer.

Steven

[samba]

Someone wined that females should be allowed to compete in trousers, now it is the norm. (ok, maybe not the norm, but they now have the freedom of choice)

Well actually in the UK no, a Muslim competitor at an adult competiton over here was made to wear a skirt over her trousers before she could go on, looked ridiculous but she wanted it badly enough to comply and the only people to whine about it was myself and other competitors she is a dignified lady who quietly kept her composure and got on with it, she gained the respect of everyone that day, I do hope we see her again this year.

[flippet]

Hey, all,

I'm going to bring up the unofficial 'three post rule'...which says that if you can't convince someone in three posts, they're just not going to be convinced, and dropping it is probably the best idea.

Let me be clear---no one is being warned, and the topic is not off-limits. I'm just going to close this particular thread simply because tensions are a touch high.

Everyone take a breather, and pick a different sandbox for a little while, ok?

~flippet