Creaky Knees, lunges & sit spins

[SkatingOnClouds]

This is one mostly for the creaky knee adult brigade here. (I have discovered my knees are fixable, being misaligned knee-caps rather than anything degenerative, which is good news, but it's going to take time.)

I was reading the other thread about stretching for lunges, made me shudder just thinking about them, however lunges and the dreaded sit spins are looming large on my horizon right now.

I could manage them 20+ years ago, but I am wondering whether my poor old joints are up to it these days. I recall that getting down into the lunges was an effort for me, but that getting up from either of these moves, especially sit spins, can be harder than the getting down into them.

Any other old-timers out there got any tips on how to prepare my bod for this punishment?

[tidesong]

I'm not too old, but if I were curious as to what my knees can do, I would warming up first then try squats while holding onto something really heavy and strong to support my weight, so that if at any point in time it hurts I can pull myself up with my arms.

If you want to be cautious about putting too much weight on one knee all at once, you can try those things (lunges/sit position) in the pool with the water supporting most of your weight if you want as well. I have no idea how bad your knees are in terms of the significance of it and how painful/strong they would be, so not sure what I can help to point out that you wouldnt know already.

[Mrs Redboots]

[Edit note: Isk8NYC - Original post by MrAttitude has been removed.]
Im not old or anything but heres a little commonsense...

"Don't do them. No one is forcing you to do them. If it hurts stop. You probably burn yourself on the stove 20 times a week cause you cant tell yourself to stop."Ah, someone who is obviously not a skater! We tell ourselves we can stop any time..... yeah, right.....

[Edit note: Isk8NYC - Original post by MrAttitude has been removed.]

[VegasGirl]

Well, my best advice to you would be to work on strenghtening your thigh muscles since that's mainly what's getting you back up from a lunge etc. Do squats and lunges off ice working with weights if possible... "donkey kicks" are great too... strengthen those muscle so they can protect your knees!

Also make sure you use proper form while working our and doing those elements in skating. Most important rule in that kind of exercise, never bring your knee past your toes and try to maintain a 90 degree angle on your bent leg (in case of squats, legs).

But as MrAttitude said, before you seriously injure yourself just don't do them (or atleast not so/too much)!

[Skate@Delaware]

[Edit note: Isk8NYC - Original post by MrAttitude has been removed.]
Im not old or anything but heres a little commonsense...

"Don't do them. No one is forcing you to do them. If it hurts stop. You probably burn yourself on the stove 20 times a week cause you cant tell yourself to stop."

Yeah, right. Actually a sit spin is almost REQUIRED if you DON'T have a backspin or camel or layback actually, a "mock-sitspin" is as close as I'm going to get in 2 weeks.....for my bronze-level program (still :twisted: about that)

Although, hitting the gym and working out has helped a tiny smidgen of a bit....perhaps there is a bit of hope? As long as your knees are structurally sound, mostly they need some strengthening. As strong as my legs were, I've found they were too weak for spinning and the sit spins (let along shoot-the-ducks)...

[doubletoe]

Personally, I'd skip the lunges for now, since they aren't a particularly valuable element, just one of many possible connecting moves you can use. Not worth ruining your knees over. But the sitspin you'll pretty much need, so save your knees for the sitspins.

Rather than immediately trying to squat all of your weight on one leg like you'd be doing in a sitspin, do squats off the ice on both feet, starting with no weight, then gradually adding weight. Keep your chin up and back arched, so your chest is over your knees, which are over your toes. You can even put a little riser under your heels or wear shoes with a 2" heel to simulate the weight distribution you'll have in a real sitspin (where your boot has a heel and you are also lifting that heel off the ice to stay on the ball of your foot).

Then try backwards shoot-the ducks on the ice. Backwards because that will enable you to lift your heel and get on the ball of the blade to simulate a sitspin position. Doing these will help you get the position down so the sitspin will come more naturally.

I developed a knee problem from doing too many sitspins last year and after swearing off sitspins, axels, waltz jumps and salchows for 2 months, I eased back into them. My left knee has been problem-free this year, but only because I now limit the number of sitspins I do on any given day (no more than 5 or 6) and I never stand up on my left leg. I switch feet and stand up on my right foot in a reverse upright spin. During the 2 months I wasn't doing any sitspins, I practiced lots of forward-backward upright change foot spins and the technique translated well to the forward sit-reverse scratch. Also, my physical therapist (who is also a skater) told me my knee problem was related to my quads pulling harder on the knee than my hamstrings, and that I would be using my hamstrings more if I went down deeper, i.e., parallel or below. It seems counter-intuitive that that would actually be better for my knee, but in this case, it was apparently true.

[Skate@Delaware]

I don't do squats with free weights-use a machine at the gym that you lay down in....still works pretty good because you can alter where you put your feet and how far down you "squat".

My knees don't really bother me unless I do too many waltz jumps and salchows in one session (like 30++ or so) and I don't really care for lunges either.

[VegasGirl]

I like doing lunges, especially the forward-backward ones... have one of those in my FS1 artistic program and it's a beautiful connection between my half flip-toe loop combination and the waltz jump after.
Shoot-the-duck I do as part of my warm-up. :)

[beachbabe]

take up yoga...a good, experienced yoga teacher can tailor the excersies to your knee problems and it will do wonders for strength and flexibility. you wont have a single problem w/lunges

[Skate@Delaware]

I like doing lunges, especially the forward-backward ones... have one of those in my FS1 artistic program and it's a beautiful connection between my half flip-toe loop combination and the waltz jump after.
Shoot-the-duck I do as part of my warm-up. :)
That sounds cool.
Every so often I will do a shoot-the-duck. And one of the little girls will say (very innocently), "oh, are you trying to do a shoot-the-duck?" 8O

Honey, I've shot the duck and it's dead.

[VegasGirl]

What was really funny was that the 2 15 year olds in our adult class couldn't do shoot-the-duck to safe their lives and here I was whizzing by them with no probs at all. :twisted: :halo:

[Isk8NYC]

Every so often I will do a shoot-the-duck. And one of the little girls will say (very innocently), "oh, are you trying to do a shoot-the-duck?" 8O Honey, I've shot the duck and it's dead.

Great comeback - I love it! I teach a modified shoot-the-duck that might be easier on your knees. Start with a two-foot glide and squat down into a low position. SLIDE your free foot forward to create the s-t-d position and lower it further, reaching forward with your hands. <Try to "cross" your upper thighs, so the free leg rests on the skating leg.> To get back up, raise yourself a bit and try to push all the way up. If you can't, just go as high as you can and put your other foot down to finish. The sit spin isn't as hard on your knees as a s-t-d because of the spinning. Getting back up is just as hard, though! (Leg presses and ankle weight/leg lifts help build those muscles.)

[Skate@Delaware]

Great comeback - I love it! I teach a modified shoot-the-duck that might be easier on your knees. Start with a two-foot glide and squat down into a low position. SLIDE your free foot forward to create the s-t-d position and lower it further, reaching forward with your hands. <Try to "cross" your upper thighs, so the free leg rests on the skating leg.> To get back up, raise yourself a bit and try to push all the way up. If you can't, just go as high as you can and put your other foot down to finish. The sit spin isn't as hard on your knees as a s-t-d because of the spinning. Getting back up is just as hard, though! (Leg presses and ankle weight/leg lifts help build those muscles.)
I will have to try this version. I don't have a problem with the s-t-d except for weak muscles-my knees are fine.

The problems I'm having on my sit-spin: weak muscles and not being able to "snap" that free leg around so my knees hug.....once I get that, I know the rest will be golden (my legs are too far apart for anyone to be happy).:cry:

[Isk8NYC]

If you want to build up the knee muscles for the sit spin, I found that going into it on a straighter knee then "descending" allows you to (1) close your thighs and (2) make the "down" part more difficult on your muscles. It's sort of the reverse of getting up.

I never worry about the knees - it's in the thighs, baby! Try having the free leg thigh cross over (a little bit) and "rest" on the skating leg thigh. It helps lock your hips/legs closed and creates more "snap" than just bringing it in front and trying to arrange yourself to close your legs.

[doubletoe]

If you want to build up the knee muscles for the sit spin, I found that going into it on a straighter knee then "descending" allows you to (1) close your thighs and (2) make the "down" part more difficult on your muscles. It's sort of the reverse of getting up.

I never worry about the knees - it's in the thighs, baby! Try having the free leg thigh cross over (a little bit) and "rest" on the skating leg thigh. It helps lock your hips/legs closed and creates more "snap" than just bringing it in front and trying to arrange yourself to close your legs.

Can you still get into a 90-degree (skating thigh parallel to ice) sitspin position with your thigh crossing over the skating thigh? I remember my sitspin was never low enough until my coach told me to lower my butt until I could feel the upper calf of my spinning leg pressing against the inner thigh of my free leg. 5 minutes later I had a real sitspin. It really worked!

[Skate@Delaware]

We did manage to work on sit-spins tonight during lessons. I do have to say: don't do heavy squats at the gym on the same day that you skate when you might be having sit-spins in lessons because your legs will be JELLY!!!8O

[SkatingOnClouds]

Some really good advice here. I didn't get to read Mr Attitude's post before it was removed, probably just as well.

I saw the physio today, she was really happy with the muscle development in 2 weeks, and I have further exercises to do for the next 4 weeks. Also referred to a podiatrist to talk orthotics. There is hope!

On the down side, she said hopping isn't a good idea right now, so that means my newly rediscovered loop might have to take a back seat for a while. I'll work on them, but not too many per session, and listen to my knees if they tell me to stop.

I've realised that I have to stop racing ahead to regain all the elements I used to be able to do, and spend time regaining things like spirals and really solid edges, balance out of turns, all that boring basic stuff.

It sounds, from the advice here, that you & my physio are pretty much saying the same things. More exercise, more strengthening of the surrounding muscles. Thanks everyone!

[Hannah]

Get thee to a physical therapist! :)

Starting in middle school, I began to have serious problems with knee pain (I was a long-distance runner between 7th and 10th grade, the WORST possible time to run a lot). I let it go until about two years ago, when I decided that I was heading to a bad place if I couldn't walk down a staircase at age 22.

So I went to the local PT, and after about a month of in-office therapy, SuperFeet, and daily exercises to strengthen the inside quad muscles, I was nearly pain free. It was like magic! :D What had happened was that the outside muscles in my quads were significantly stronger than the inside, and so were pulling my kneecaps out to the side. I heard that it is a common problem in skating, so I've gone back to doing the PT exercises.

EDIT: oops, just saw your post above mine. You already went! :)

[SkatingOnClouds]

What had happened was that the outside muscles in my quads were significantly stronger than the inside, and so were pulling my kneecaps out to the side. I heard that it is a common problem in skating, so I've gone back to doing the PT exercises.


That's exactly what my problem is. I have always had these huge quad msucles from field hockey, soccer, marching and so forth. Add flat feet, and some pronation, and my knee caps are not tracking right. Exercise is definitely helping.

[Isk8NYC]

Can you still get into a 90-degree (skating thigh parallel to ice) sitspin position with your thigh crossing over the skating thigh? I remember my sitspin was never low enough until my coach told me to lower my butt until I could feel the upper calf of my spinning leg pressing against the inner thigh of my free leg. 5 minutes later I had a real sitspin. It really worked!

Yes. It aligns skater's hips from the beginning, instead of the skater having to try and draw the legs together while spinning. One note: don't cross your legs like you're in a chair. LOL Just cross the upper thighs a little bit. You can relax that cross as you descend into that deep position. (I made the suggestion for a beginner, not an advanced skater.)

Your goal should be to have a straight back, the free foot in front of the skating foot (not wrapped) and your hips at or below the skating knee. You don't have to have a 90-degree angle and you don't have to have the leg parallel to the ice.

I personally don't like the look of the parallel free leg. You can stretch the foot down as far as you want, as long as it doesn't touch the ice. This is less stiff and looks lovely on long-legged skaters.

Obviously, when your skirt's catching ice because your bottom's so low, the parallel leg is necessary for survival ...

[SkatingOnClouds]

Your goal should be to have a straight back, the free foot in front of the skating foot (not wrapped) and your hips at or below the skating knee. You don't have to have a 90-degree angle and you don't have to have the leg parallel to the ice.

I personally don't like the look of the parallel free leg. You can stretch the foot down as far as you want, as long as it doesn't touch the ice. This is less stiff and looks lovely on long-legged skaters.

Should the back be straight, rather than leaning forward slightly?

Personally I do like the look of the parallel free leg, as long as it is a really low sit spin, so low that anything less than parallel would hit the ice. Hm, long legs don't apply in my case :roll:

[Isk8NYC]

Should the back be straight, rather than leaning forward slightly? Straight (ISI requirement). Leaning forward doesn't equal being hunch-backed.