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View Full Version : Some questions about progressing . . .


Laura H
03-19-2006, 09:14 PM
Hi all! I am new, with lots of issues. ;) I have a son who is almost 8 who began skating in early 05. We live in the South so ice skating is still kind of an oddity around here although we have a local rink that I pitch to anyone who will listen :) . My son and I both started in ISI-type learn to skate programs in Jan 2005 just to have fun. Both of us were having so MUCH fun that we just "kept on going" in group lessons and he progressed all the way through the Delta level by the end of 2005 and was cleared to start "jump & spin" classes. Time and money constraints combined - he didn't take lessons in the first session of 2006 but started back up this past Saturday. I was a little concerned about the break but he picked right back up. His instructor is fairly new to the rink and I took some adult lessons with her and went up just to say "hi" and she was raving about my son . . . they were working on the half flip and he apparently felt like he wasn't rotating enough and proceeded to (unintentionally) do a toe loop. And a Salchow. :roll: So her question is . . .who is he taking from?! (meaning private lessons). Well, he never has taken a private lesson. He actually won a free private lesson a while back in one of the rink giveaways but hasn't taken it yet (although I did talk to one of his former teachers about giving that one to him and she seemed enthusiastic about it).

Anyway, I'm confused . . . do some teachers just push privates more than others? It just kind of threw me for a loop since no one has ever said anything to me about it before. How do you know if/when it's time to start doing privates? It seems even harder to know when you factor in that he is a boy (like, the only one at our rink in the learn-to-skate upper levels) and also we are in an area where ice skating isn't really something that many people do . . . how do you decide what your goals are? He and I have never really discussed competing or anything . . although he is rather competitive . . . and I'm sure he would love it . . . I'm kind of confused at this point as to where this is all leading to. Would love to hear feedback from others about all these issues!!

beachbabe
03-19-2006, 10:18 PM
well im not a coach, but the best time to start private is when you feel the group environment is starting to hinder progress. when i was starting out i did usfsa basic skills, but basically at a ceratin point i felt like i stopped elarning b/c the instructor was just playing catch-up with the kids who were not quite in the right level (b/c holding ppl back is kind of frowned upon here).
So basically i just passed the levels with a private instructor who i ahve stayed with since then.

some group instructors don't even do privates, so don't expect them all to offer lessons. Just ask around, every rink has a popular coach or you can look in the rink's brochure to see their qualifications.

keep going with your son's skating. I always encourage young boys elarnignt o skate b/c i'm also in the south and they are definately rare. there are definately not enough boys in this sport.

twokidsskatemom
03-20-2006, 01:39 AM
I would say as parent of two kids, the time is start privates is when either A, the skater has grown past group lessons, or B, the skater shows a real interest in getting better faster.
Some coaches Im sure push privates.
Being a parent of a boy skater, I would guess that the coach was just glad to see a boy interested in skating.Have you talked to him about it? Is it something he wants do ?
Also think about the cost, more ice time, and practice time that goes along with skating.
He doesnt even have to compete unless he wants to.He could do the shows that your club has, test, or compete. Boys are higher in demmand !!!
My son, even though young, loves all the attention and all the girls.It doesnt bother him at all, being one of the few boys in our club.He flirts with all of them:)
I would ask your son what he thinks about lessons.The way we see it, its their journey not ours.When they want to stop, its fine by us. They dont skate for anyone but themselves and their heart.
Good luck !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Laura H
03-20-2006, 07:37 AM
Thanks for your responses and, OH, so nice to hear from another mom of a boy skater . . . I definitely feel like the lone ranger at our rink!! You both made me feel better, because I think he is OK for now with his group lessons . . . actually on Saturday it was 2 students to one instructor (there just aren't that many skaters taking group lessons at his level) - that's pretty close to being a private lesson, and he is learning what he needs to so I think he is good for now . . . I know he is interested in skating in the next ice show because he was really put out at the Christmas show because he wasn't in it (I actually skated in a routine with our adult class, but that's what we worked on during our regular lessons!!). But I think he would probably need to have a few privates to work up a routine, right?

Thanks again for your input and keep it coming!!

plinko
03-20-2006, 08:23 AM
I have a son that wanted to jump -soooo bad - but his basic skating skills were keeping him stuck in learn to skate, he couldn't get to the badge that had jumping on it until he had done something else I don't know what. We hired a coach for a private lesson for the purpose of jumping on the ticket ice after the group lesson. That coach, in a very smart round about fashion fixed his basic skating and took him to some good competitive experiences over a number of years. When he was being taught the back 3/mohawk entry for the salchow and realized he'd never learned how to do threes properly, then he was in the mood to learn how to do threes, immediately. (he plays hockey now - he grew)

A private is an opportunity to get outside the boundaries of group lessons, to focus on something fun, to do solos, to build confidence. I think you should try one or several, try out different instructors too.


Coaches could be said to be soliciting if asking about privates, but I think in your case, and it happens with boys, is that the question is a gauge of interest in pursuing the sport.

Skate@Delaware
03-21-2006, 08:03 AM
There are some coaches who push private lessons as a means of generating income, you have to be cautious about that.

I teach my son privately (for free!) just to keep him caught up with his class. He started figures skating late in the season (surprise!) and needs a few lessons to get where his class is. He switched over from hockey (still plays).

It gives him individual attention, he can tell me what he wants to work on and we hit it. Because we work on public ice time, we can usually go for about an hour, and grab a meal. I intersperse our "lessons" with fun...tag, some hockey drills, contests (who can spin longer, jump higher, etc). He likes the individual attention. And, he doesn't feel intimidated by a whole group so he can ask questions (I noticed during the last class he wouldn't ask questions because he is a bit shy).

ps-he is ten years old.

CanAmSk8ter
03-22-2006, 10:45 AM
I would consider private lessons if he is beginning jumps and spins, mainly because it's very easy to pick up bad technique when you're starting and it's very difficult to get rid of it later on ;) I know as a coach it's easier for me to teach jumps and spins one-on-one because I feel like I learn on the first couple of jumps (waltz jump, salchow, half-flip) what a skater's bad habits are and I know to keep an eye out for similar mistakes when we start the harder singles (loop, flip, Lutz). Also, while there's certainly nothing wrong with learning different approaches to elements, i.e. doing a one-foot fpin from a pivot vs. from back crossovers, eventually it's better for most skaters to have one way of doing an element that they use on a regular basis. That way they focus on and learn the element really well from that approach rather than trying several and changing it on a regular basis, which is what sometimes happens in group classes when the instructor changes every x number of weeks.

If your son is that young, has never done private lessons, has had a significant break from skating, and is already at the point where he is, I'd say he has more natural ability than a lot of kids. That can mean everything or it can mean nothing; in the long run, talent helps but work ethic is far more important. If your rink holds a Basic Skills competition, that would be a great thing for him to try; it's very low-key and fun for the kids, and he wouldn't necessarily have to have a program, although I'd recommend having a private coach to guide you through the process at least the first time. Unfortunately, since you said you're in an area without many rinks and where skating isn't very popular, I don't know if this is something your rink does. It would be worth looking into, though.

As far as why the coach is pushing privates, I doubt it's because he's a boy. If you were in a major skating mecca (Detroit, Delaware, etc.) my answer would be different; coaches at the big-name and even some medium-name rinks are always looking to recruit boys for dance and pairs, but if you're in a non-skating part of the country there's probably not a pairs coach at your rink anyway, and competitive dance requires a much bigger commitment much earlier than competitive singles because of the amount of traveling involved; many of the smaller local competitions don't offer dance events, or if they do no one else signs up ;) Even very young beginning dance teams end up having to travel to Lake Placid, Indianapolis, DC, etc. for competitions. Somewhere along the way, you can expect skaters, coaches, even judges to try to talk him into doing dance or pairs- it happens to every boy skater- but it'll probably be awhile before you'd have to worry about that. He'll probably have every little girl at your rink wanting to do pairs with him in the shows, though ;)

stardust skies
03-22-2006, 06:53 PM
I noticed you mentioned that he stopped skating for a while because of financial constraints. I just wanna make sure you know that to say this sport is ridiculously expensive wouldn't even begin to cover it. He WILL grow out of group lessons, and privates are expensive. Since you're in an area without much skating action, if he ever hopes to become competitive in the ranks, you guys will most likely have to move to a bigger training center somewhere far away. He'll have to take a few lessons a day. They usually (for the higher coaches) start at $35 for 20 minutes. Then there is freestyle ice time, 2-3 sessions a day, $10 a session and up. And skates. Good skates cost upward of $800 bucks for double jumps, after that, look to spend about $1300 a year (boots and blades included). The you must pay for competition fees, travel, pay for your coach's expenses while he comes with you, etc. I've only hit the basics, there are many, many more costs involved.

The only reason I say this is because you said you weren't even sure he wanted to compete. IF HE DOES, if he's taking this seriously, make sure you have the money to support him. If you don't, then you should try to encourage him to stick to recreational skating (ISI is an organization that does competitions but they are much more low key and don't require anywhere near as many fees, plus there are always local ones) or even show skating. You must make the decision first, of whether or not you want to and can afford to become a potential serious skater's mom, before you let him decide whether or not *he* wants to. Of course the costs I quoted above would be some years down the line- but they will arise if you go this route. And you will need to relocate, unless there is some sort of hidden gem future elite coach who can actually teach triples etc... at your rink, which I doubt because I imagine we would've heard about them by now. The worst thing is to see someone who has talent (as it sounds your boy has..) who wants to go for it but then gets stopped because the money runs out. It happens *a lot* in this sport.

Laura H
03-22-2006, 07:57 PM
Ugh, yes, the "incredibly expensive" aspects of it is what has me freaking out a little ;) . . . I love to read everything I can about figure skating and some of the background (and dollars) as to what the upper level skaters go through . . .eek!! 8O

I guess we'll just see how things progress . . . the recreational competition route is more what our rink participates in anyway . . . and I think he'd enjoy participating in those . . . and after that . . . guess we'll just see how it goes. It is sad that the $$$ can get in the way . . . but just a reality I guess, unfortunately.

MrAttitude
03-22-2006, 11:18 PM
Well heres my two cents:

I WAS a male skater and AM a male coach. Best thing u can do for your son is find a private coach as soon as possible. The trick is to find a GOOD coach. Dont go looking for one with your wallet in mind. Its not the amount of money charged its what the kid gets out of it.

Group lessons are pretty pathetic. Basically paying for your kid to be entertained without really learning anything. You'll get more out of 1 year of privates than 3 years of group lessons.

Need any more help just msg me.

flippet
03-23-2006, 03:11 PM
Group lessons are pretty pathetic. Basically paying for your kid to be entertained without really learning anything.

MrAttitude....keep showing that 'attitude' around here, and risk getting booted. If, as a coach, you display that attitude, I'm amazed you're still employed.


I strongly disagree with the above. If a person is diligent about learning, then quite a lot can be learned in a group lesson. Just because there's more than one person being taught at a time doesn't mean the teaching is of inferior quality.

That said, progress will most likely happen faster, with fewer bad habits learned, if you're in private lessons--simply because if you're the only one the coach is watching, less might get overlooked, and you ultimately get more 'time' with the coach one-on-one.

But if finances are an issue, and your rink is offering group lessons at the freeskating levels, go ahead and do it. Perhaps you can fit in a short private lesson once or twice a month in addition to the group lessons. Yes, skating is expensive, but there's a vast difference between a serious competitive skater whose goal is to place as well as possible at every competition, and someone who's just out there to have fun, do as well as he can within the constraints, and maybe compete a little for the heck of it.

MrAttitude
03-23-2006, 07:16 PM
MrAttitude....keep showing that 'attitude' around here, and risk getting booted. If, as a coach, you display that attitude, I'm amazed you're still employed.


I strongly disagree with the above. If a person is diligent about learning, then quite a lot can be learned in a group lesson. Just because there's more than one person being taught at a time doesn't mean the teaching is of inferior quality.



Flippet. I'm suprised that someone as smart as yourself would disagree with me.

You wrote this, " Just because there's more than one person being taught at a time doesn't mean the teaching is of inferior quality. "

1.) One coach teaching 10 kids equals a 10% coaching time thus one tenth of the quality of coaching the kid is receiving.
2.) One coach teaching 1 kid equals 100% coaching time.

Lets put those two things together now.

Group Lessons compared to Private Lessons

10% quality versus 100% quality

Now according to "Flippet" in the above statement, these two numbers MUST be wrong as he/she states that the quality isn't necessarily different.

In conclusion I would like to state strongly that your kid will advance MUCH quicker by avoiding group lessions all together.

Bothcoasts
03-24-2006, 12:03 AM
In conclusion I would like to state strongly that your kid will advance MUCH quicker by avoiding group lessions all together.

I've had some students who have advanced quicker in group lessons than privates. It all depends on the nature of the kid. Some of my most competitive students love group classes, which they view as miniature competitions. Other students love groups because they can practice and review with friends. Still other students work best off of the individual attention of the private.

I would agree that in most cases, a student advances quicker in privates; however, it really is dependent on the individual nature of the student. To generalize and say that group lessons should be avoided at all costs if a child is to advance troubles me. Group lessons serve a very different purpose than privates in that they teach camaraderie, competitiveness, and how to share space and a coach with others. These are all great fundamental building blocks for basic skills and low freestyle skaters.

MrAttitude
03-24-2006, 12:07 AM
Well written BothCoasts.

I would like to add that if your kid is quite talented its usually a good idea to get them out of group lessons to privates. They will thank you later in their skating career.

flippet
03-24-2006, 07:53 AM
You wrote this, " Just because there's more than one person being taught at a time doesn't mean the teaching is of inferior quality. "

1.) One coach teaching 10 kids equals a 10% coaching time thus one tenth of the quality of coaching the kid is receiving.




No, your example shows 1/10 [b]quantity[/i] of coaching. Perhaps you need to consult a dictionary, as quantity and quality do not mean the same thing.

crayonskater
03-24-2006, 08:54 AM
At an early level, and I'm talking learning-to-balance, most of what the child or beginner needs is not specialized instruction, but practice and familiarity with being on ice. Standing up, marching, gliding, swizzles.

All of this can be taught by a private instructor, but it's going to take roughly the same amount of time to learn the first few skills, because most of the first few skills aren't highly body-position dependent. There's not much for a coach to do one-on-one that can't be done just as easily in a small group.

Consequently, assuming you're not one for unlimited resources, it makes more sense, given the high cost of private lessons, to learn the early stop-clinging-to-the-wall bits in group lessons.

Add to that the fact that for many people, this is their first introduction to the sport and they have to figure out if they like it before they make a commitment to prices. Group lessons can be a good trial for an expensive sport; determine whether the skater likes it and has any talent in it before tossing tons of money at it.

Paying someone $35 for half an hour of 'learn to fall! learn to stand up!' seems over the top.

My initial six-week learn to skate class, which met twice a week for 45 minutes, cost $20. The same period as private lessons would have been $600.

beachbabe
03-24-2006, 12:44 PM
At an early level, and I'm talking learning-to-balance, most of what the child or beginner needs is not specialized instruction, but practice and familiarity with being on ice. Standing up, marching, gliding, swizzles.

All of this can be taught by a private instructor, but it's going to take roughly the same amount of time to learn the first few skills, because most of the first few skills aren't highly body-position dependent. There's not much for a coach to do one-on-one that can't be done just as easily in a small group.

Consequently, assuming you're not one for unlimited resources, it makes more sense, given the high cost of private lessons, to learn the early stop-clinging-to-the-wall bits in group lessons.

Add to that the fact that for many people, this is their first introduction to the sport and they have to figure out if they like it before they make a commitment to prices. Group lessons can be a good trial for an expensive sport; determine whether the skater likes it and has any talent in it before tossing tons of money at it.

Paying someone $35 for half an hour of 'learn to fall! learn to stand up!' seems over the top.

My initial six-week learn to skate class, which met twice a week for 45 minutes, cost $20. The same period as private lessons would have been $600.


exactly, the time to move up is when you feel you are starting to learn bad habits b/c of lack of attention. For most kids, once they have finished the basic skills they go up to privates. Its a lot faster, i mena i really didn't need 10 weeks to learn a waltz jump or a toe loop, i learned both in one lesson with my private coach. On the other hand, you don't need an expecive private coach to help you march and do swizzles, and I have seen parents making their kid get private lessons when they can't stand up. It almost seems like a waste of the coach's time and skills.

MrAttitude
03-24-2006, 01:05 PM
No, your example shows 1/10 [b]quantity[/i] of coaching. Perhaps you need to consult a dictionary, as quantity and quality do not mean the same thing.

Dearest Flippet,

Would you not agree that the best coaches in the world do not coach group lessons? Group lessons are often left to coaches just starting out, or simply the older girls at the club who want to make a bit of money babysitting the kids.

So that DOES mean quality is in the privates.

(but good try nevertheless....the dictionary comment was brilliant...except for the fact that you are wrong.)

Sincerely Mr Attitude

Alicia
03-24-2006, 03:06 PM
I have seen parents making their kid get private lessons when they can't stand up. It almost seems like a waste of the coach's time and skills.

Those are kid's parents that either have more money than brains or they're just passing the kids to an expensive baby sitter!!

I remember saying near the same thing about hybrid vehicle owners!!

slusher
03-24-2006, 06:54 PM
I have a kid that, when in learn to skate did absolutely nothing, didn't pay attention, was more interested in kicking holes in the ice and being generally disruptive and subsequently was ignored by the coach during the group lesson and left to rot during the "supervised practice" by a teenager afterwards. No fault of the coach, she was a high level competitive coach but it was a 10 minute group lesson in an hour's skating. 10 kids, 10 minutes.

A year of that was a waste of $350 but I did get a lovely carnival show picture of a dancing mushroom of some such sort. Never really got around to skating backwards. Can we say BOREDOM?! My kid couldn't care less about the other girls, didn't want to socialize and wanted to something fast and dangerous, not swizzles or swing rolls (which subsequently did happen but in privates).

You might call what we paid the $350 for babysitting: or you could call the $600 in private lessons during summer session babysitting: either way, my kid was entered in competitions the next year after privates. Without privates, would either be languishing in learn to skate or would have quit.

By the way, it was another parent who suggested privates, both the coaches and the executive of the skating school did not talk of privates in case they were accused of soliciting students for coaches. If it wasn't for this parent passing along a secret, we wouldn't have known anything, this was a long time before the internet was available.

sarahmom3
03-24-2006, 07:13 PM
Interesting. My DD took only group lessons until she reached FS 3. At that point I felt like she needed a coach with her as she practiced so she wouldn't be learning bad habits. I was very happy with he rgroup instuctors. It seems like certain skills can be taught well in a group enviroment. As the skills become more difficult, I think it is more important to have one on one.
Sarah's mom

Lmarletto
03-25-2006, 12:21 AM
My experience is that the quality of group instruction varies widely and depends mostly on how seriously the instructors take their job. Most kids here start taking private lessons between backwards crossovers and the waltz jump. And the really good (experienced) coaches encourage their kids to continue with group lessons if it interests them. It's a great supplement for a kid who craves more social interaction than they get in one-on-one. My daughter's private coach actually talks with her group lesson instructor periodically so they can coordinate their efforts.

I think the biggest impact on progress comes from practice. Being able to practice without someone hovering over you is a critical skill for a skater. And staying on task during a group lesson even when the instructor is paying attention to someone else is a good way for young kids to start to develop that skill.

ETA: A group lesson with just a couple of kids in it is a great option for a beginning skater so long as you're satisfied with the quality of the instruction. Rather than jump into privates, I would use this time to check out all the coaches at your rink, watch how they interact with their students, squirrel away the $ to pay for privates once the group lessons really don't meet your childs needs.

CanAmSk8ter
03-25-2006, 11:40 AM
On the other hand, you don't need an expecive private coach to help you march and do swizzles, and I have seen parents making their kid get private lessons when they can't stand up. It almost seems like a waste of the coach's time and skills.


Not always. I can think of a lot of situations where a kid may be better off starting in privates first. Obviously, a lot of special needs skaters will need private instruction from the beginning. Very young skaters are often better off in private lessons if the rink doesn't offer something specifically geared toward preschoolers. My rink won't take kids until they're four, so any three-year-old who wants lessons has to do private. Even at rinks that will take twos and threes, they so often don't have the attention span for a 30-minute class that I usually suggest two fifteen-minute privates a week, followed by some practice time with Mom or Dad. I've had private students of all ages just starting out, and almost every time I've felt like the parents were smart to do privates first; I've also had students in group classes whose parents I wished had done even two private lessons before starting the group lessons.

I think private lessons first are good for any skater who's particularly nervous about skating; it's fine to have a nervous newbie or two in groups if there's a helper who can work one-on-one or two-on-one with them, just getting their feet under them and helping them gain some confidence, but it's hard on both the kids and the instructors when there are one or two kids who are terrified and won't lift their feet at all while the seven or eight others can march right away. I've noticed that, especially in groups of older beginners, say eight or nine and older, the kids who are very afraid are also very self-concious about it. There's only so much an instructor can do one-on-one with them, because in a group where the kids are that old, most of them will probably have the body awareness and motor skills to skate fairly well straight away.

I've had several overweight kids in the nine- to eleven-year-old age range who are clearly not used to physical activity and struggle just to stand up while their peers are starting swizzles, and I've often thought private lessons would have let them learn at their pace without having to be frustrated and/or embarassed at learning and moving more slowly than the other kids. I also have an overweight eleven-year-old boy that I'm doing privates with who, despite being absolutely terrified the first week (he had never been on the ice before) was marching on his own within fifteen minutes, surprising even me. His grandmother tells me every week how much he and his younger brother love to come skate, and I'm convinced it's because he can succeed and work on what he's learning without comparing himself to the eight-year-olds who would have left him in the dust in a class. I think even non-overweight skaters who start later sometimes get self-concious about being older than their classmates, and if that's going to interfere with their enjoyment of lessons, they might as well do privates if the parents can afford it.

Hannah
03-26-2006, 03:39 AM
1.) One coach teaching 10 kids equals a 10% coaching time thus one tenth of the quality of coaching the kid is receiving.

Phaw. Your posts leave a bad taste in my mouth. But I imagine different coaches will have different impacts in a group setting. We had the local 76-year-old lady coach substitute for our group class, and she identified and corrected problems so quickly that it might as well have been a private lesson for all six of us in the class. (I'm an adult skater.)

If you were my first private coach and I was a ten-year-old, my interest in skating would dry up pretty quickly.