Wierd advice from supposedly qualified coaches?

[dooobedooo]

Well, let's keep this anonymous :halo: , but has anybody else received totally wierd advice, from supposedly well-qualified coaches?

Once I travelled thousands of miles to attend a prestigious summer skate camp. The ice dance coach was a former national champion and international competitor. She started talking to me about the one of the "bete noires" of female ice dancers - the Argentine Tango twizzle. My coach back home was mad-keen on figures and had spent some time correctly explaining it to me technically as a "swing counter".

Well, this lady was trying to reassure me - "You see, a lot of people worry about this step, but it's really easy. You just have to think about it as doing a back three turn.

Er, excuse me, lady, but how can that be, when you go into it going forwards ....?

Urrrggggghhhhhh...... I haven't been back ........:??

[Skate@Delaware]

Well, I have a conflict in definitions of the "outside mohawk" term. Coach #2 says they are outside because the new foot is on the outside of the skating leg and then is put down on the ice. Coach #3 (for the show) says the skating foot in on a deep outside edge and the skating foot is placed on the instep......(don't ask about my arms, as I'm too busy concentrating on my feet to worry about that part).

This is my comment from the drunken sailor thread. It may have been as you said, a mis-communication in either the question asked or explanation given......

I wish some of the coaches/instructors would be more clear on basic stuff from the get go:
-open vs. closed hips....what the he** are they and what it means
-check....what it is and why it's important (duh, it took 2 years before I found someone to really explain THAT to me)
-where the free foot is really supposed to be


Anyway, the latest thing at my rink is the re-education of everyone on the toe-loop. Several of the coaches went to a PSA seminar and learned that the "correct" way to pick in is between 3-5 pm position (assuming you jump CCW)... Have you ever tried this? It's an accident waiting to happen. I don't think this is ever changing for me. I'm sticking with 6 pm position.....

[twinkle]

I once heard the skating director at a rink I skated at telling someone "mohawk, mohawk, mohawk, mohawk". The only problem was, his skater was doing mohawk-slip steps in a circle (from UK inter-silver field moves). And yes he was saying mohawk on the slip step as well as the actual mohawk. :!:

[dbny]

When watching skating tapes of elite skaters, I had noticed that on FXO's the non-crossing foot does a step-ahead, taking the ice ahead of the pushing foot. I asked my coach about it, and she told me it was an illusion! I left it alone for a while, but went back to the tapes at a later date, and saw that she was quite wrong. It's possible that she didn't want to get into progressives, but she knew my technical background, and had never failed to expound on anything previously.

[nerd_on_ice]

My first-ever private lesson coach outright denied the existence of the "under-push" on forward XOs. It may have been (as dbny alluded) that she just didn't want to teach it to me yet, but she always claimed there was no second push! Even back then, when I'd only been skating a few months, I could see that wasn't true. 8O

[techskater]

I saw a coach teach an axel where the free leg never came through but sort-of-waxeled and sort of an "I got to pee" position and the coach was very proud of his student's axel!!! It's very wonky and inconsistent. Same coach let a student rotate almost 1 full turn on her toe pick before jumping about 1/2 turn and told her she was real close on her axel! :?:

[Isk8NYC]

I attended a PSA conference where a very-famous coach taught "skidding" the axel entry. S/he felt it was necessary for the double and triple version, so start teaching it on the single rotation axel. Remembering the tests I've seen skaters fail for "cheating the axel," I decided that I don't need to teach that, so I'll leave it for her to RETEACH when my students are ready for doubles and triples.

[luna_skater]

Well, let's keep this anonymous :halo: , but has anybody else received totally wierd advice, from supposedly well-qualified coaches?

Once I travelled thousands of miles to attend a prestigious summer skate camp. The ice dance coach was a former national champion and international competitor. She started talking to me about the one of the "bete noires" of female ice dancers - the Argentine Tango twizzle. My coach back home was mad-keen on figures and had spent some time correctly explaining it to me technically as a "swing counter".

Well, this lady was trying to reassure me - "You see, a lot of people worry about this step, but it's really easy. You just have to think about it as doing a back three turn.

Er, excuse me, lady, but how can that be, when you go into it going forwards ....?

Urrrggggghhhhhh...... I haven't been back ........:??

I have a question about the Argentine twizzle. I see a lot of people do it, like you describe, just as a swing counter...ie., ending up backwards, and then stepping forwards, which is technically not a twizzle. I was taught to do a forward inside twizzle...one full rotation, starting FI, and ending FI, then stepping out of it. I can see this coach's point, because in your version, you finish backwards...to get forwards and thus finish the rotation, you *could* think of needing to do a BO3.

[Mrs Redboots]

One coach didn't realise her pupils should have their music cut to length, but thought the referee would signal the music steward to turn it off at the appropriate moment! A very kind adult skater (not me!) spent several hours cutting the music for her pupils the day before the competition.....

I would never, ever, rely on any coach, even the best, to know the rules of any given competition, but would always double-check them for myself.

[Perry]

I have a question about the Argentine twizzle. I see a lot of people do it, like you describe, just as a swing counter...ie., ending up backwards, and then stepping forwards, which is technically not a twizzle. I was taught to do a forward inside twizzle...one full rotation, starting FI, and ending FI, then stepping out of it. I can see this coach's point, because in your version, you finish backwards...to get forwards and thus finish the rotation, you *could* think of needing to do a BO3.

How you do a CD twizzle largely depends on where you live. Here, everyone cheats the Argentine twizzle (in fact, the judges actually comment on how slow it is if you don't cheat it), but elsewhere, I've known judges to fail people for cheating it.

[luna_skater]

How you do a CD twizzle largely depends on where you live. Here, everyone cheats the Argentine twizzle (in fact, the judges actually comment on how slow it is if you don't cheat it), but elsewhere, I've known judges to fail people for cheating it.

Interesting. It always baffles me that different versions of things are acceptable or unacceptable in different places. I was taught to do it as a FO swing roll, change edge to FI twizzle. If I cheat mine, it's by no more than a 1/8 turn (I also had a "good twizzle" comment on my test sheet).

[Perry]

Here, they practically demand that we cheat the twizzle, but almsot every judge will fail you for changing edge (to the inside) before the turn!

[phoenix]

I watched a girl in a lesson recently working on her Kilian--the pattern placement was rotated almost a full quarter of the rink, making her choctaw happen out in the middle, almost between the 2 hockey circles 8O . The coach had her working on it w/ music, & didn't seem concerned about the pattern at all. I know it's an optional pattern dance, but I don't think there's *that* much leeway!

[dooobedooo]

Perry, I just found your old post on the AT twizzle:
http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?p=200506#post200506

It does seem that it is done differently in different places.
However, what my home coach told me still holds - it is a swing counter turn - you go into it on a left forward outside, do a counter, end up on a left back outside. It is only "cheated" if you go onto an inside edge before the counter turn (thus making it a three turn). This applies whether or not you continue onto a LFI on the same foot.

People locally to me do it with LFO-LBO counter turn to RFO step forward. I'll have to search out some videos to see what they do elsewhere ...

[luna_skater]

Perry, I just found your old post on the AT twizzle:
http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?p=200506#post200506

It does seem that it is done differently in different places.
However, what my home coach told me still holds - it is a swing counter turn - you go into it on a left forward outside, do a counter, end up on a left back outside. It is only "cheated" if you go onto an inside edge before the counter turn (thus making it a three turn). This applies whether or not you continue onto a LFI on the same foot.


I disagree...the cheat happens if you don't rotate one full turn during the twizzle. The pattern clearly shows a twizzle, not a counter or three-turn. If you don't rotate fully on one foot, then you are just doing a turn (whether you change edge or not), which is not what the pattern dictates. I've never seen someone fail for changing edge before the twizzle; in fact, that's the way I've always seen it taught.

[icedancer2]

I disagree...the cheat happens if you don't rotate one full turn during the twizzle. The pattern clearly shows a twizzle, not a counter or three-turn. If you don't rotate fully on one foot, then you are just doing a turn (whether you change edge or not), which is not what the pattern dictates. I've never seen someone fail for changing edge before the twizzle; in fact, that's the way I've always seen it taught.

I think this is correct -- at least that is the way that I've always done it. I think that the seminar coach recommended thinking of it as a backwards 3-turn because this is where most people get "stuck" -- and end up just pushing onto the RFO after the twizzle and never REALLY completing the turn.

Back in my coach's day, it was required to put your foot down during the twizzle!! Wonder whatever happened to that???? (Wishful thinking on my part...)

[lovepairs]

I had a coach once who never taught me how to skate. This coach would always tell what was wrong, but never told me how to fix it. :frus:

[xofivebyfive]

Yeah, my first group lesson 3 weeks ago the sub was an instructor who was an Olympic medalist.. and she completely taught us the wrong way to do swizzles and wiggles and one foot glides. Then the next week our teacher thought we were crazy because of how we were trying to do them.. Ha.

[luna_skater]

I think that the seminar coach recommended thinking of it as a backwards 3-turn because this is where most people get "stuck" -- and end up just pushing onto the RFO after the twizzle and never REALLY completing the turn.


I think so too; that's what I was trying to get at!

FWIW, I just watched videos of 4 couples doing the Argentine (one from '98 Olympics and 3 from '00 Worlds) and not one of them is doing a counter turn. It is definitely a swing roll with a change of edge into a FI twizzle.

[cecealias]

There are a *lot* of qualified coaches out there that don't know how to teach good technique, even outside of skating this happens. Even if the coaches themselves can skate well, it doesn't mean they necessarily understand good technique or how to teach it well.

It's also difficult to figure out who teaches good technique and who doesn't. Probably the best indicator is to watch coaches teach various students over several weeks. The best coaches have students that all have the same consistent look and take off positions in all their jumps, spins and moves. The best coaches also don't let their students get away with cheating anything.

It takes an untrained eye a while to recognize the subtle differences but after a few months to a few years of watching it should start to become more clear.

[Perry]

Not necessarily related, but my freestyle coach (a former Olympian) was unofficially fired from teaching learn to skate because she refused to teach the Beta crossovers picking up the foot. She said she's spent so many years teaching kids not to pick up their foot that she wasn't about to willingly teach it the wrong way.

And as for the Argentine twizzle, I can only testify to what I did. No change of edge (or very little of one, since you do change edge in the process of turning) and essentially a 3-turn/step forward. I passed the first time by 1-4 tenths over by each judge, and there were no negative comments about the twizzle.

[dbny]

Not necessarily related, but my freestyle coach (a former Olympian) was unofficially fired from teaching learn to skate because she refused to teach the Beta crossovers picking up the foot. She said she's spent so many years teaching kids not to pick up their foot that she wasn't about to willingly teach it the wrong way.

I hate teaching BXO's picking up the foot, but I've learned through experience that that particular method works very well for some students. I usually watch my students on their B half swizzle pumps to see which technique I will start them with, and can tell pertty quickly if I need to switch them to what I call "pull under" rather than cross over or vice versa.

[xofivebyfive]

Whoah, you aren't supposed to pick up your foot for crossovers? That's so weird.. I can't even imagine not doing that. I mean, I was teaching myself to do foward crossovers during public skating for the past couple of weeks, and I was trying to do it without picking up my skate today and it was so akward..

[twokidsskatemom]

I think ISI teaches them one way in Beta, USFSA basic teaches the other way.

[phoenix]

it's backward, not forward. Forward, you always pick up the foot.

Backward, ISI requires the outside foot to lift and step over the inside foot. Later you would change this to the "true" back crossover, where the foot does not lift ("pull unders" is a good way to explain this, I like it!). I agree w/ dbny, w/ some students it works better to teach this way, but I only do it if they can't get it the other way. Eventually they'll have to switch to the "pull under" version regardless of how they start out.

[vesperholly]

Well, I had a coach who was absolutely convinced that Michelle Kwan never skated Red Violin in competition. 8O I spent a good five minutes trying to convince her that not only did she use it in competition for an entire season (99-00), she won Worlds with it, AND did a triple-triple at Worlds! I don't think she really believed me, even though she conceeded the point. :giveup:

[Isk8NYC]

I hate teaching BXO's picking up the foot, but I've learned through experience that that particular method works very well for some students. I usually watch my students on their B half swizzle pumps to see which technique I will start them with, and can tell pertty quickly if I need to switch them to what I call "pull under" rather than cross over or vice versa.

I've started using that technique, too. (I've totally ripped you off DBNY! ;) ) It forces the kids to balance on their inside foot without the outside foot's assistance. (Inside/outside the circle; not edges) I've always hated teaching those "lift crossovers" but here's a good use for them. Backward stroking isn't enough of a "drill" for the kids that struggle to balance, so I use this as a next-level drill.

[Isk8NYC]

Whoah, you aren't supposed to pick up your foot for crossovers? That's so weird.. I can't even imagine not doing that. I mean, I was teaching myself to do foward crossovers during public skating for the past couple of weeks, and I was trying to do it without picking up my skate today and it was so akward..

No, no, no - we're discussing BACKWARD crossovers. There is a drill for forward that uses the swizzle/crossover, but it's pretty tough for beginners.

I think ISI teaches them one way in Beta, USFSA basic teaches the other way.

Correct (as usual) I teach in a USFSA group program currently, so I have to make sure they can do them without the lift, but I'll use the BACKWARD lift/crossover technique as a "drill" to build up the students' balance.

[twokidsskatemom]

Correct (as usual) I teach in a USFSA group program currently, so I have to make sure they can do them without the lift, but I'll use the BACKWARD lift/crossover technique as a "drill" to build up the students' balance


Awwwwwwwww Thank:o One of the advantages of having skaters who compete/test in both ISI and USFSA.Have all the rulebooks and read them !!!!

[sunshinepointe]

...but I'll use the BACKWARD lift/crossover technique as a "drill" to build up the students' balance.

When I first started working on back crossovers with my new coach she wasn't happy with my edge quality so she had me do the "steppy" method to make sure I was on the right edge at all times. In the non-steppy method it's easier to cheat the edge, but if you make em steppy it's almost impossible to cheat. Lesson learned!

[doubletoe]

Several of the coaches went to a PSA seminar and learned that the "correct" way to pick in is between 3-5 pm position (assuming you jump CCW)... Have you ever tried this? It's an accident waiting to happen. I don't think this is ever changing for me. I'm sticking with 6 pm position.....

I totally agree with the 5:00 picking position on the toeloop. . . if you rotate CLOCKWISE!

[xofivebyfive]

it's backward, not forward. Forward, you always pick up the foot.

Backward, ISI requires the outside foot to lift and step over the inside foot. Later you would change this to the "true" back crossover, where the foot does not lift ("pull unders" is a good way to explain this, I like it!). I agree w/ dbny, w/ some students it works better to teach this way, but I only do it if they can't get it the other way. Eventually they'll have to switch to the "pull under" version regardless of how they start out.
Ohhhhhh. Okay. :mrgreen:

[doubletoe]

I fortunately haven't ever had to deal with this mis-advice myself, but I know 2 adult skaters who have been told by their respective coaches to stay "on the circle" and/or curl their axel takeoff ege. Not surprisingly, their axels just got worse instead of better!

[dbny]

Backward, ISI requires the outside foot to lift and step over the inside foot. Later you would change this to the "true" back crossover, where the foot does not lift ("pull unders" is a good way to explain this, I like it!). I agree w/ dbny, w/ some students it works better to teach this way, but I only do it if they can't get it the other way. Eventually they'll have to switch to the "pull under" version regardless of how they start out.

I just want to point out that it is perfectly legitimate to lift the crossing foot on BXO's, and if you watch elite skating, you will see pretty much all the Europeans do that, even though it is just a tiny bit right at the end of the XO.
I asked my coach about it, and she said it was purley a matter of style, but then, she is also the one who told me that progressives were an illusion :roll:.