My Feet & Harlicks - Eye Opener!

[dbny]

While finding info for a student on how to break in new boots, I saw that Harlick has a whole section on pronation and the problems it causes for skaters. Here is an excerpt "Some skaters flat arches and pronation are so sever they can completely distort the shape of the boot. When pronation is this severe, special structural reinforcements need to be built into the counter and sole of the boot to prevent this twisting and torquing." I have to admit, that after reading that, I think I may switch to Harlicks. I can't afford to do it now, but in a few months I will be able to. The Harlick site lists Dante Cozzi and Skate For Gold (Tim Murray) as preferred fitters. Does anyone here have anything to say about them or can anyone recommend a great Harlick fitter in the NYC area? If not, I might visit my friend in Oakland and throw a trip to Harlick in.

[jwrnsktr]

I know and trust both of these guys. Dante, I think, promotes Harlicks and has the fitter come out from California occasionally. You might call him and find out if he is due to arrive in NY any time soon. If not, he will fit you since he works closely with them.

[froggy]

my coach recommends Tim and says he really knows his stuff. She also recommended Harlicks as well.

[NaomiBeth1]

Dante Cozzi and Skate For Gold (Tim Murray) as preferred fitters. Does anyone here have anything to say about them or can anyone recommend a great Harlick fitter in the NYC area?

Had a bad experience with Dante, but Tim is the only person who I have sharpen my skates. My Harlicks were indeed fit by Tim, however, I hate Harlicks and would not recommend them to anyone. I've heard some people love them and some hate them, with not many in-betweens. I'm hoping for Klingbeils next (as I pray my skates last 3 more months!)

[TashaKat]

Can't help with the fitting as my first couple of pairs were done by drawings, the last (purple) pair by a fitter in the UK. I can completely, utterly and unreservedly recommend Harlicks, though. They are the ONLY boot that haven't wrecked my feet. Apart from a small ouchie where the top of the boot rubbed at the front I've never had an ounce of trouble and certainly no blood stained boots which was my norm 8O The roll edged tops are brilliant for avoiding the 'top of the boot scars' and I had the lambswool and rubber tongue which is divine.

[jazzpants]

If not, I might visit my friend in Oakland and throw a trip to Harlick in.And if you do, would you mind throwing in a trip to YB on Monday night and visit me too? :mrgreen: (And BTW, if you do get your boot fitted at Harlicks, get Phil to do it!!! He's very good!!!)

As for my Harlicks experience, I've been very happy with it. And yes, my feet pronates and I have low arches and narrow ankles to boot (ummmm, no pun intended there... :P ) My boots are custom with orthotics. The way I see it is this... would you rather spend the money on good quality boots, or would you rather spend $200 less for stock boots but be in agony and lose time and money on visiting doctors and getting painkillers?

The choice for me is quite obvious... ;)

[dbny]

And if you do, would you mind throwing in a trip to YB on Monday night and visit me too? :mrgreen: (And BTW, if you do get your boot fitted at Harlicks, get Phil to do it!!! He's very good!!!)

Love to! BTW, meeting your new custom purple Harlicks got me thinking about making a change back in December.

Had a bad experience with Dante, but Tim is the only person who I have sharpen my skates. My Harlicks were indeed fit by Tim, however, I hate Harlicks and would not recommend them to anyone. I've heard some people love them and some hate them, with not many in-betweens. I'm hoping for Klingbeils next (as I pray my skates last 3 more months!)

Tim sharpens my blades too! I've had a few conversations with him about fitting, and liked what he had to say. I'm in custom Klingbeils currently, and in spite of four or five visits for adjustments, I still have significant problems.
I must say that I have nothing but praise for Klingbeils' customer service, but I need to get the boots right! What do you hate about your Harlicks?

[doubletoe]

Don't all of the major boot makers make custom boots to accommodate orthotics? It was my impression that SP Teri and Klingbeil did this, too. . .

[dbny]

Don't all of the major boot makers make custom boots to accommodate orthotics? It was my impression that SP Teri and Klingbeil did this, too. . .

Yes, they all do this, including Klingbeil. However, when I brought my prescription orthotics to Klingbeil to get the same in my boots, I was told that they don't have the materials necessary. Additionally, if you read the Harlick FAQ (http://www.harlick.com/order/faq.php), you will see quite a lengthy and detailed discussion of pronation, which goes into some things that Klingbeil does not. Here is an excerpt that I thought was particularly significant "Some skaters flat arches and pronation are so sever they can completely distort the shape of the boot. When pronation is this severe, special structural reinforcements need to be built into the counter and sole of the boot to prevent this twisting and torquing."

I am going back to Klingbeil again with this info (not mentioning Harlick, of course) and seeing what else they can do for me. I am also going to ask them to go back to my original last, which was modified at the beginning because other problems. If they can't fix the problem, then I will give Harlick a try (I am keeping in mind that Harlick says that not all problems can be fixed) when I can afford it.

[coskater64]

If you read other threads on this site you can see that there are many good skating boot brands running around. I have always heard that Harlick & SP Teri were for narrower feet, my feet are narrow and I use Harlick religiously, my boots take about 5 days to break in are almost always a perfect fit. I hated Reidell, but others love them you won't know until you purchase a pair for yourself. My first pair were stock 8 1/2 A's they were great. Good luck.:lol:

[cecealias]

I too will say I have enjoyed my Harlick experience with boots. I have really low arches, a very wide ball and narrow heel with some weird bones sticking out in places (gack) and got customs.

I'm happy with the boot quality, and the boots really stand up to a lot of pounding on the ice. My feet feel secure when I land, and that's the most important thing to me. :) I know my blades come from Dante Cozzi to Harlick and they're awesome.

[dbny]

[QUOTE=coskater64]If you read other threads on this site you can see that there are many good skating boot brands running around. /QUOTE]

I'm one of the regular posters on those threads :lol:. I have a very particular problem that cropped up last year with my custom Klingbeils. I'm only looking around because Klingbeil has not been able to fix it. My younger DD and DH both wear custom Klingbeils, and I know many people who are very happy with them. Riedells are not right for anyone in my family (heel is too deep, to start with). I don't have particularly wide feet, but aging and being on the ice every day all winter is taking its toll on their structure. There is no way I could get away with any stock boot.

[dbny]

I finally saw Tim Murray today, and it was very interesting. First, he did not recommend Harlicks to me, saying that I don't have the right foot for their boots. Second, I was encouraged to try a pair of the Jackson 3500's, which they heat molded for me. The arch was very comfortable, but they didn't have my exact size in stock. If I'm going to get Jacksons, it will be the Pro boot, but that can't be returned, as they are made only when ordered. Finally, I've decided to see what Don can do with my current boots yet one more time. Then, I'm going to go for a new pair of custom Klingbeils, possibly using a Birkenstock insole or maybe Superfeet orthotics - still to be discussed with Don. I've come to the conclusion that my boots never fit right to begin with, and that my feet have changed too much in the past 5 years. It happens, and if I'd had a better idea of what to expect, I'm sure it would have been taken care of right away. I'm convinced that the boots are too long for me, especially after trying the Jacksons. Anyway, I may also get the Jackson Pro's since I can write it all off on my taxes, and I do need something extra warm for outdoors in the winter.

To clarify things, the exact Jackson model I am thinking of is the Coaches Boot - DJ3005.

[Isk8NYC]

I'm such a terrible influence, helping you justify two new pairs of skates! LOL

[doubletoe]

If you read other threads on this site you can see that there are many good skating boot brands running around. I have always heard that Harlick & SP Teri were for narrower feet, my feet are narrow and I use Harlick religiously, my boots take about 5 days to break in are almost always a perfect fit. I hated Reidell, but others love them you won't know until you purchase a pair for yourself. My first pair were stock 8 1/2 A's they were great. Good luck.:lol:

SP Teri's are actually known for having a wider toe box, and since my feet are wide and straight across in the toes, that's what my boot fitter advised me to get (I was told I had an "SP Teri foot, not a Harlick foot.") Meanwhile, my friends whose feet are narrower in the toes are very happy in their Harlicks and the one who switched to SP Teri's had problems with the fit.

[sj702]

Harlick is now making a new model boot with a larger toebox and wider ball/throat, I do not know why they do not have pictures of this boot on their website, and I probably never would have believed it unless I saw them... Which I did this April when Phil [Harlick Pres] came to Vegas with them. I was very impressed with the new boot style [resembles my foot more than the other] and wished they were making this when I had my first customs made... My feet are very duck like. Triple A heel with a C width... After past experiences with Harlick, good and bad, I'd only get fitted by Phil.

[doubletoe]

Harlick is now making a new model boot with a larger toebox and wider ball/throat, I do not know why they do not have pictures of this boot on their website, and I probably never would have believed it unless I saw them... Which I did this April when Phil [Harlick Pres] came to Vegas with them. I was very impressed with the new boot style [resembles my foot more than the other] and wished they were making this when I had my first customs made... My feet are very duck like. Triple A heel with a C width... After past experiences with Harlick, good and bad, I'd only get fitted by Phil.

Hey, that's good to know! My foot isn't as extreme as yours, but I have a mixed width as well: C ball and A heel. I am making do with a combination B-A boot and it's working out okay.

[dbny]

Harlick is now making a new model boot with a larger toebox and wider ball/throat, I do not know why they do not have pictures of this boot on their website, and I probably never would have believed it unless I saw them... Which I did this April when Phil [Harlick Pres] came to Vegas with them. I was very impressed with the new boot style [resembles my foot more than the other] and wished they were making this when I had my first customs made... My feet are very duck like. Triple A heel with a C width... After past experiences with Harlick, good and bad, I'd only get fitted by Phil.

Why would that make any difference in a custom boot? Aren't customs made to fit each individual foot?

[beachbabe]

Why would that make any difference in a custom boot? Aren't customs made to fit each individual foot?

yes, but the basic shape of the boot remains true to the brand. i know klingbeil is really good about making truly custom boots, but some of the other companies simply compare your measurements to various previously made lasts and hope your satisfied, thats why so many people have to get more adjustments. I know that sounded confusing but basically, say your heel is an A and your ball of the foot is between C and D. Klingbeil, or truly custom boots would simply make a new last based on your measurements, whereas some other companies would go in their stockroom and pick out a D/A last or a C/A last, whichever one your measurement is closest to instead of making a new one exactly to the size of your foot.


I'm not exactly sure which companies use pre-made lasts, but I do know Klingbeil makes a new last for each person, at least they did when my mom got her boots.

Thats why someone may find a custom sp teri, for example, more comfortable than a custom riedell. They would be better than stock boots, but there would still be differences in fit depending on brand.

[dbny]

Beachbabe - many thanks for a great explanation. I asked the question because someone told me that custom Harlicks are not true custom, yet I know people swear by their perfect fit.

[Debbie S]

yes, but the basic shape of the boot remains true to the brand. i know klingbeil is really good about making truly custom boots, but some of the other companies simply compare your measurements to various previously made lasts and hope your satisfiedYes, I can confirm this about Harlick. I talked to their rep at Liberty last summer and I asked him about the custom/stick last thing. He said that they (or your fitter) take your measurements, then figure out how much adjusting you need based on their general last, and incorporate those adjustments when they make up the boots. His sales pitch was that it was better to use a stock last and make adjustments according to specifications b/c a custom last could be made incorrectly, or it could be a bit off from your actual foot shape.

I ended up going with Klingbeils, not so much for the custom last but b/c they were closer to me and I could have them do my measurements as opposed to a dealer, and it would be easier (and cheaper) to send them back if the boots required adjustments, and I'd heard really good things about their customer service (I'm not saying Harlick doesn't provide good service, just that I'd heard good things about Klingbeil). The prices were almost identical.

[sue123]

Wow, I feel lucky that my feet are the same across the toes and heel.

I've been to both Dante and Tim. Dante fitted my last skates, (Riedell's) and I have no problems with them. He also sharpens my skates. I had a bad experience when I went to Skate for Gold. I said I wanted Tim to sharpen them, and they told me to leave them, that he would sharpen them after lunch. I come back to pick them up, nad apparently Tim never sharpened them. Some hockey kid sharpened them and completely ruined my blades. So nothing against Tim, just the store.

[TashaKat]

Why would that make any difference in a custom boot? Aren't customs made to fit each individual foot?

True customs are. I believe that Harlick do the 'real' customs although they also offer customised stock boots which is a different ball game entirely. Unless, of course, they've changed their practise from when I dealt with them.

I have a wider forefoot and a narrow heel which only Harlick have been able to fit to suit my purposes. From what some people are saying on here Harlicks shouldn't suit me but they do and are the only boots apart from Wifa which have. For my first pair of customs (my first were stock boots) I got the mould from them and did a foot impression.

As far as dealing with Harlick as a company are concerned I have nothing but good to say about them. Even though I'm in the UK they were fantastic.

[doubletoe]

I have never heard of any boot company making custom lasts for custom boots. It is just too time-consuming and expensive to do that. All of the companies use their standard lasts, but make adjustments for the shape of your foot.

[LoopLoop]

Klingbeil does, in fact, make custom lasts. If you go to their shop to be fitted, they will take you into the work area and show you shelf after shelf of lasts, all labeled with the skater's name.

[Moto Guzzi]

I've worn Harlick's for years but the last pair I ordered didn't fit right. My feet have changed through the years from 7 1/2 AA to 8B, and I have new measurements taken each time I order boots. When my new boots arrived, they looked too small and I asked my fitter if they were really mine. I could get my feet into them, but they were extremely uncomfortable. It looked as though they'd used my measurements from 10 years ago.

We sent them back and when Harlick returned the boots, they were still too small. I told my fitter that when I paid that much money for a pair of custom boots, I expected them to fit me. He tried stretching them, but they were just too small. He remeasured my feet and the measurements were nearly identical to the ones he sent in with the original order.

The boots went back and they made me a new pair that fits much better except the orthotics still hurt my feet a year later. The arch doesn't feel as though it's in the proper place, and I'm thinking about having new ones made locally. I took out the new orthotics and replaced them with my old ones, but it didn't help. I did notice that the inside of the boot was stamped 8AAAA and wondered if they'd used a stock boot last. At one time I did wear a quad A heel but that was a long time ago.

A friend had the same problem with several pairs not fitting properly and came to the conclusion that Harlick just grabbed one of her old measurements at random and made her new boots. They're great when they fit properly and terrible when they don't. Also, it took me five months to get a pair that fit. :evil: :evil: :evil:

[Isk8NYC]

Klingbeil does, in fact, make custom lasts. If you go to their shop to be fitted, they will take you into the work area and show you shelf after shelf of lasts, all labeled with the skater's name.It's true! When I bought my last pair of Klingbeil's, Don showed me the lasts with my name on them. They have "wooden feet" in a huge storage room onsite. There's a video (http://www.klingbeilskatingboots.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=home)on their website that shows the process.

[doubletoe]

It's true! When I bought my last pair of Klingbeil's, Don showed me the lasts with my name on them. They have "wooden feet" in a huge storage room onsite. There's a video (http://www.klingbeilskatingboots.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=home)on their website that shows the process.

Okay, well that's cool! I wonder how they can afford to do that and still keep their prices reasonable. . .

[dbny]

Okay, well that's cool! I wonder how they can afford to do that and still keep their prices reasonable. . .

Their prices have gone up recently. I wouldn't be surprised if they own the building they are in and may get some rental income from it also. Otherwise, I really don't know.

I emailed Jackson about not being able to return the coaches boot if it didn't fit, and got a reply very quickly. As long as no customizations are ordered, they said the boots can be returned. I've asked them for a dealer in my area who would do that, because I will order them as long as I'm certain that they could be returned. I also have an appointment for a week from tomorrow with Don Klingbeil. I'm going to show up with Birkenstock insoles and maybe Superfeet orthotics and see if he can work them into a new pair of boots. I'll ask him to start from scratch with them. Everyone else with custom Klingbeils says they fit like gloves - and that's what I want too!

[TashaKat]

I decided to get it from the horse's mouth so to speak :) I gave them the link to this thread hence their references to it. So here's their very prompt reply:


There were some very informed posts on that thread and a lot of good information. Let me try to clear up a few things. Our custom boots are fully customized. The lasts are customized to fit each skater's needs and the leather uppers are designed and cut to fit each skater's feet according to their fit.

There seemed to be some questions on the thread about a "true" custom last and a modified stock last. I'm very confident in saying that every boot company uses the same approach as Harlick in regards to their custom lasts. As one poster said it would be very difficult for the boot company to make a "true" custom last for each individual skater.

It would cost too much money, take too much time, and with time (we've been making custom boots for 75 years) it would be impossible to store all the custom lasts. Also as one poster said that Phil (president of Harlick) told them that even though it is a "true" custom last there is a small margin for error and the last may not fit the skater properly and still need to be modified. I know Klingbeil does make some "true" custom lasts--and I don't want to speak for them--but I'm pretty sure most of their custom boots are made with a customized stock last just like every other boot company.

Just because the last used in making a custom boot is not a "true" custom last that does not mean the fit will be compromised. Harlick has several hundred stock lasts (various widths, lengths, and shapes) that are used for custom orders. These lasts are a starting point and can be modified to fit any type of foot (round toe, narrow heel, flat arches, high arches, etc.). We are very confident that this method works and is the best way to give the skater the fit they expect when ordering a Harlick custom boot.

On top of customizing the last Harlick also customizes the boot patterns and hand cuts the leather so the upper will fit the skaters foot precisely. There are also many other modifications and options that can be added to the custom order so that the skater gets the precise fit and function out of their boot that they need. Other boot companies will take a stock upper and stretch it around a customized last.

Please let me know if you have any other questions. You are more than welcome to copy this to the thread.

Rudy Kuhn
Harlick & Co., Inc.

[Isk8NYC]

Very tactful, and informative, reply. Thanks TashaKat!

[dbny]

I decided to get it from the horse's mouth so to speak :) I gave them the link to this thread hence their references to it. So here's their very prompt reply:

Exactly why I did not want to name names here. I hope there is no fallout.

[flo]

Thanks for the info. I had custom Harlicks for years and never a problem. This last one just didn't fit. I sent it back for corrections and meanwhile got a pair of Jacksons, which really don't fit. I have never had so many blisters and foot problems. I spoke with the rep at nats and agreed to give it one more try and send them back again if necessary. He was very helpful, and now that i'm finished competing for a while, I'm going to go back to my Harlicks.