Can not spin

[Logan3]

Hi there!

My daughter has a lot of trouble with spins. She can harldy manage a two foot spin. I think she leans backward or forward. She keeps practicing with no result. She is now 6 years old and skates basic 8. It is kind of a surprise to me how she can do waltz jumps and even some of the freeskate 1 elements but she can hardly spin aroun twice. She is taking group classes twice a week. Her teacher said she will eventually get it but offered no other advice. Is it something that eventually will click in her head? Any tips on how should she practice? She is currently a little bit frustrated. I explained to her the thing about leaning forward or backward but she can't help it. I think verbal explanations at this age do not work. If you guys have any tips let me know! Thanks!

[dbny]

I tell my students to imagine being a very tall, very straight and beautiful tree. The tree trunk must be very strong and cannot bend at all in any direction. That said, have you considered a few private lessons for her? When a coach has only one student to focus on, problems get fixed a lot faster than in groups.

[luna_skater]

Hi there!

My daughter has a lot of trouble with spins. She can harldy manage a two foot spin. I think she leans backward or forward. She keeps practicing with no result. She is now 6 years old and skates basic 8. It is kind of a surprise to me how she can do waltz jumps and even some of the freeskate 1 elements but she can hardly spin aroun twice. She is taking group classes twice a week. Her teacher said she will eventually get it but offered no other advice. Is it something that eventually will click in her head? Any tips on how should she practice? She is currently a little bit frustrated. I explained to her the thing about leaning forward or backward but she can't help it. I think verbal explanations at this age do not work. If you guys have any tips let me know! Thanks!

I don't have specific tips, but keep encouraging her even if she's frustrated. I personally find spinning a lot harder than jumping. The spins that I do have pretty decently did just "click" at one point. It just felt like one day I finally convinced my body to coordinate everything the way it was supposed to.

Some people (including me) also find two-foot spins quite awkward, and one-foot spins much easier. I don't think it's necessary to be able to do a good two-foot spin in order to learn a one-foot.

[Isk8NYC]

The two-foot spin is required in Basic 3, and a one-foot spin in Basic 5.
How did she reach Basic 8 without being able to spin?

The biggest problem on keeping a two-foot spin going is that the skaters allow their feet to spread apart, which STOPS the spin.

The second problem with any spin is the arm/shoulder positions; if they're "against" the spin, you stop.

Without seeing her skate, you're going to get peppered with suggestions that may or may not help. Your best bet would be to set up a few private lessons with an instructor.
This is a skill she really needs to develop ASAP if she wants to progress further with her skating.

Browse through this and the "On Ice" forum. There are tons of notes on spinning.

[Logan3]

[The two-foot spin is required in Basic 3, and a one-foot spin in Basic 5.
How did she reach Basic 8 without being able to spin?

.[/QUOTE]


The way she advanced is that she really mastered any other skill. She does beautiful 3-turns around the circle, nice mohak (sp?) combinations etc. Her teacher thought that holding her back just for the spin would make her really bored. Actually I would see my daughter wanting to quit if she would still needed to do forward pumps in the cicle or on foot backward glides for one hour every week. The idea was that eventually she would get the spin. Besides that, the group classes she gets are not that competitive and frankly I see girls in freeskate 2 that have basic stroking worse than my daughter's. We do not belong in a real skating club yet because of distance. We try to get the classes in the local rings but those are recreational, open to all and I rarely seen girls held back. Right now she skates for fun, the classes are really cheap and very close to home. She turn out to be better than we expected so next year we might look into getting in a club. I hope that explains. My surprise was the "gap" in her skating ability. She seems to really take in any other skill than the spin. It is kind of weird so I was thinking if there is something in her head that holds her back...

[slusher]

Spinning is a skill that takes lots of practice, and is just as important as jumping, so spin as much as jump. If she can do a 3, she should be able to get at least a 2 rev one foot spin, one from turning the 3 and another rev from not checking the 3 and falling out of it, so somethings weird.

The other thing that came to my mind was that there's no decent rocker on her blade. Have someone look at her skates.

[Logan3]

The previous post was just right. Her one foot spin looks like a 3-turn the way it was described with some travelling in between. Then she goes out of balance. I think she can not keep her balance on the blade. After the 1 and 1/2 revolution is disaster. I am trying to make a list:
If her toe pick gets caught = she leans forward
if she falls in her behind = she leans backward
if she gets off balance = she leans to inside or outside edge
what's the result if she bents her knee? I am not sure about that.

We went practicing today and I told her about "being a tree" advice and she really liked that. It gave her motivation to practice.

Let's hope she gets it soon. I read somewhere that in order to spin well you have to find just the right balance something like riding a bike. That was funny because she does not know how to ride a bike yet :)

Thanks for all the advice!

[dbny]

I agree that it's not good to hold a child back for just one skill, when she/he has mastered all the others. OTOH, it's also not good to let it go on too long.
Spins are an integral part of jumps and will become very important when (and if) your daughter gets to the point of working on Axels. If you can possibly manage a few private lessons to help her with spins (but don't have the lessons focus exclusively on spins - she still has to have fun), that might do the trick. You could also ask a coach to check her blades.

[Isk8NYC]

mohawk[/B] (sic) combinations etc. Her teacher thought that holding her back just for the spin would make her really bored...The idea was that eventually she would get the spin.

Oh, I see. I could understand that for the two-foot spin, but she should have mastered that by the time she reached the one-foot requirement. I've taught for skating directors that would have held her back, to tell the truth. It is cruel to have the kid repeat the same exact level more than once, I agree.

When I have a student that's mastered everything but one element in a test level, I sign their book for the prior levels, check off all the mastered skills for that level, and circle the element I want them to practice. When I give them back their book, I tell them that I need them to practice that element ten times every time they skate. When they can do it well, they're to show me and I'll check it off and sign that test level. I do let them move up to the next test level in class. If there are two or three elements unmastered, I tell the Director to put them into a mixed class with that level and the next highest.

Obviously, there IS an issue and it's time she learned how to spin properly. At this point, she might be self-conscious as well, so she doesn't practice it in front of her friends.

One-on-one lessons will be a good investment, as will lots and lots of practice. She should set a goal to master the one-foot spin at least. The two-foot spin is irrelevant at this point for the USFSA Basic Skills program.

[Logan3]

Yes, we did set a goal to master the spin. Everytime she gets into the ring she has to practice it. I did explain to her that in freeskate 1 she has to attack the scratch spin and in order to do that she needs to get her one foot spin in order. So, the plan is to stay at level 8 for the spring and hopefully get it by then. I think she will move to freeskate 1 in the fall, I do not think she will skate during the summer (got to find a year round ring...). For now she happily agreed.

I think her problem is that she can not find the right place (sweet spot?) to balance on her blade. I did look at her blades, btw brand new Riedells, bought from the place teacher send us, cost us aplenty :) , and they look fine, with curve and all... So the only thing to do is practicing . I looked for a private (for after school) but I was told hockey is taking up all ice time so we need to wait for spring.

Thanks!

[Isk8NYC]

Finding the sweet spot isn't too hard. Have her stand by the wall and "swish" her feet back and forth on the ice. If she leans to the back of the blade, she'll feel it scraping on the ice - wrong spot. If she uses the toe picks, she'll feel it grinding on the ice - wrong spot.

Now, if she comes down slowly off of her toes, she'll find the "sweet spot" where her blades will swing freely without grinding. It SHOULD be between her toes and the ball of her feet.

Now, it's possible that the skates are a bit long, which will throw off the spot, making it too far forward on her skate. It's also possible that the sharpening is for recreational skating, not for competitive skating. It's just a different curve.

It's also possible that she's learned to spin in the wrong direction.

[Logan3]

Sharpening is something I had to learn about LOL....
The most reputable "sharpening guy" is kind of far away and I think it is with appointment only. All the other guys I was told to keep away, especially the guys in the rings (they only know about hockey, I was told). There is another guy around here that he told me he is really good but I do not know if I should trust him or not since I only have his word. It is a mess. And I am not that knowledgable to know if somebody did a good job...
I am going to make the trip and go back to the reputable guy....

[Lenny2]

Maybe she needs a different blade altogether. What type of blade is she in? Investing in a coronation ace might be a good move.

I can tell you that my daughter was a terrible spinner for years and now, at thirteen, is a beautiful spinner. It took lots of work and patience by her coach. She is now working on flying sit spins and change of edge spins.

But, if I were you, I would look into getting a better "spinning" blade.

[Logan3]

Oh, that sounds very reassuring!
I have no clue what blades my daughter wears. We bought her skates this fall. Her teacher sent us to this store which has the reputation for the best local store for figure skates. I told the guy that my daughter skates basic 4/5 (at the time it was her level) and he poposed the skates we bought : Riedell already assembled (not the kind you buy separate boots and blades). I am not sure of the model name, maby flure ribbon? Might be wrong. He said that's ok for her now. He adjusted the blade a little bit (her left foot turns in slightly) and that's all I know about. At his point I do not think it is a blade problem.
I see girls in the ring with bad quality skates that do not fit and still can pull a better spin that my little one.....

[twokidsskatemom]

Maybe she needs a different blade altogether. What type of blade is she in? Investing in a coronation ace might be a good move.

I can tell you that my daughter was a terrible spinner for years and now, at thirteen, is a beautiful spinner. It took lots of work and patience by her coach. She is now working on flying sit spins and change of edge spins.

But, if I were you, I would look into getting a better "spinning" blade.
Someone at basic level wouldnt need a 200 blade, which is what the ACE runs.
I would still suggest in some private lessons.Maybe she just hasnt devoted enough time to practice of spins.My son age 5, is at the same level with the same Riedell skate and does nice two and one foot spin.
Good luck !!

[luckeylasvegas]

I wouldn't worry about it. There is always one thing at each level which is a challenge and it's differn't for every girl. My daughter was having trouble with her sit but had a great camel, other girls can do the sit but are having trouble with the camel. It's always going to be something and then it's like somebody flips a switch and they get it. :roll:

[blisspix]

It's also possible that she's learned to spin in the wrong direction.

Agree. Get her to try the opposite direction to what she does now.

Our spinning direction was determined at our first spin class way back when - they had us face the barrier and turn when the coach called out 'turn'. Whichever direction you intuitively turned was your spinning direction. Did they do that in your daughter's class?

[Lenny2]

One other comment--When I am starting to despair, thinking that my skater will never "get" a particular skill, I remember that all the skills she struggled with most are the skills that ended up being the very bests ones for her, including particular spins, like back spins and camel spins. I used to sit in the stands and pull out my hair, thinking she would never be able to spin. Meanwhile, other kids her age were spinning like tops right next to her. But she kept at it and, little by little, the spins (and other difficult skills) came beautifully. My theory is that the things that she has had to work the hardest at are the things that ultimately turn out to be the best. I remind myself of this as she is now working on double axels and triple jumps. With your little one, you have such a long way to go. Remember, everyone learns at her own pace and you really have to be careful not to compare your skater to others. It's so hard not to get impatient if your skater does not progress in certain skills at the same rate as her friend or others in the rink. But, I can tell you that so many of those skaters whom we watched in awe thinking my skater was so far behind either never progressed past a certain point or dropped out when things got tough, while my skater kept plugging along at her own pace. Hang in there.

[Logan3]

Very well said, Lenny2. Thanks for the advice...

About spinning direction: I think (in my ignorance) that if you are right handed you spin this way and if you are left handed you spin the other. I have no clue obviously! My little one is a righty so she turns standing on her left foot counterclockwise. I do not remember her experimenting with any other way.

[dbny]

About spinning direction: I think (in my ignorance) that if you are right handed you spin this way and if you are left handed you spin the other. I have no clue obviously! My little one is a righty so she turns standing on her left foot counterclockwise. I do not remember her experimenting with any other way.

That is a general rule of thumb, but there are exceptions. Some righties turn CW, and some lefties are more comfortable turning CCW. There are coaches (we all think they are nuts) who insist on everyone following the rule of thumb or even of everyone turning CCW. Whichever way one chooses, then the jumps must also turn in that direction.

[Isk8NYC]

That is a general rule of thumb, but there are exceptions. Whichever way one chooses, then the jumps must also turn in that direction.

General rule of thumb with exceptions again: I do know some high-level skaters personally who jump and spin in different directions, and some skaters can jump and spin in BOTH directions. (Rohene Ward comes to mind.)

ITA with DBNY's assertion that most right-handed people spin CCW and left-handed people spin CW, but it's not a hard-and-fast rule. It really depends on the skater.

[Tennisany1]

One other comment--When I am starting to despair, thinking that my skater will never "get" a particular skill, I remember that all the skills she struggled with most are the skills that ended up being the very bests ones for her, including particular spins, like back spins and camel spins. I used to sit in the stands and pull out my hair, thinking she would never be able to spin. Meanwhile, other kids her age were spinning like tops right next to her. But she kept at it and, little by little, the spins (and other difficult skills) came beautifully. My theory is that the things that she has had to work the hardest at are the things that ultimately turn out to be the best. I remind myself of this as she is now working on double axels and triple jumps. With your little one, you have such a long way to go. Remember, everyone learns at her own pace and you really have to be careful not to compare your skater to others. It's so hard not to get impatient if your skater does not progress in certain skills at the same rate as her friend or others in the rink. But, I can tell you that so many of those skaters whom we watched in awe thinking my skater was so far behind either never progressed past a certain point or dropped out when things got tough, while my skater kept plugging along at her own pace. Hang in there.

Oh this is soooo true! It can be very difficult watching someone try to learn something - especially your own child - and see them struggle day after day! I started skating with my little one just to remind myself how difficult it is!

If it makes you feel any better my little one doesn't spin particularly well. She is working on her loop (had it but then grew an inch) and her flip (no where close yet) but can't do an upright spin to save her life! (Her sit spin has definitely improved lately but still has a long way to go.) Her coach is not worried. She spends lots of time on spins but says that at 5 or 6 years old when they are growing so much and just starting to get complete muscle control that as long as she understands what she SHOULD do and she is practicing it will all come together with time.

There is another little girl in our club whose only jump is a waltz jump but she has fast well centred upright and sit spins - go figure! In fact if we could take my little ones jumps, another ones spins, and yet another's spiral we would have an amazing skater:D

With regard to spinning direction, my little one is quite happy to spin and jump either way and her coach has recently had to insist that they pick one way and stick with it. Now that she has been going one way (can't remember which it is) her skating looks a lot stronger and hopefully her spins with improve.

[Mrs Redboots]

I spin in both directions equally badly - in fact, I often end my programme with a 2-revolution spin in one direction, and a 2-revolution one in the other; my this year's programme is scheduled to end that way. I'd have liked to have made it a proper change-foot, with a proper backspin at the end, but my backspin, while coming, is iffy, and my coach said it just looked as though I'd lost my balance! Sigh!

I find most turns easier clockwise, and am probably a clockwise skater, but I learnt my little hops (you can't call them jumps!) anti-clockwise, and am happy with that. I have on at least one occasion forgotten, in the middle of my programme, which way I was supposed to jump, with rather disastrous consequences, though!

Yet I'm very right-handed! Go figure, as they say.

[twokidsskatemom]

Everyone reallly has some things they are better at, and things they are working on.My skater has a cheated axle and working on her double sal.That said, she is just having a decent sit spin, her camel is ok but her 5 year old brother sprial is better than hers!!Not really but its a close tie !
She is right handed but jumps clockwise and always has.

[Poohsk8s2]

When my daughter was at the same age, I invested in a good quality spin trainer. She practiced off ice with this and translated it well on the ice. She soon became a beautiful spinner. The off ice spin trainer was also invaluable when she started to grow... she was able to find her center of balance when shooting up an inch or two threw it off.

[Kristin]

Spinning looks easy on TV, it seems like every Senior lady is out there spinning their heart out while they fall ONLY on jumps. Here is the reality: Just because someone can jump doesn't mean they can automatically spin. As an adult who started figure skating as an adult & is a very tall 5'9" in height, I had to practice spinning over and over and over and over and over and over......I spent the first 2 yrs of my life learning a 1-foot upright spin (in addition to trying to learn other spins in the process).

Now, 6 yrs later, I still spend more time on spinning than jumping and actually have sit & camel spins now too. But it took a LOT of time and practice.

FYI: normally it takes an adult MUCH longer to learn how to figure skate than it does for the kids.

Best of luck to your daughter!
Kristin

[twokidsskatemom]

I dont agree it takes longer for adults than kids. Maybe 13 year old learn fast, but small kids dont. They dont have the muscles or attention span an older child or adult has.
I think everyone has their own speed, learning curve and timetable.

[batikat]

I dont agree it takes longer for adults than kids. Maybe 13 year old learn fast, but small kids dont. They dont have the muscles or attention span an older child or adult has.
I think everyone has their own speed, learning curve and timetable.

Very young kids may not learn faster but certainly most 6,7, 8 year olds will. Done it, seen it.

In general kids do learn faster - they don't have the fear factor nor years of (bad) muscle memory to overcome. Start any 6 year old and any 38 year old skating at the same time with the same amount of ice time and lessons and I would guarantee that 2 years or 5 years down the line the kid will be way more advanced than the adult.

Any two 6 year olds though, will likely learn at different speeds and have different skills they are better at. At that age you just have to keep it in perspective. In two years time she will probably have forgotten there was ever a time she couldnt spin. Alternatively she may always find spins difficult but have other skills she finds really easy.

[twokidsskatemom]

Very young kids may not learn faster but certainly most 6,7, 8 year olds will. Done it, seen it.

In general kids do learn faster - they don't have the fear factor nor years of (bad) muscle memory to overcome. Start any 6 year old and any 38 year old skating at the same time with the same amount of ice time and lessons and I would guarantee that 2 years or 5 years down the line the kid will be way more advanced than the adult.

Any two 6 year olds though, will likely learn at different speeds and have different skills they are better at. At that age you just have to keep it in perspective. In two years time she will probably have forgotten there was ever a time she couldnt spin. Alternatively she may always find spins difficult but have other skills she finds really easy.

If you start a 6 year old and an older adult at the same time, there is no study that says that kids will learn fast.No, they might not have fear. But they still take a long time to learn and remember some things.A 6 year old has very little muscle and will take awhile to get them.
I have read of adults on this board that started a few years ago.They get the concept of moves alot faster than any 6 year old.
Im not trying to argue, but I see alot of the kids get it faster thing all over the net.Maybe a 8 year old does get it faster than a 38 year old. I dont think a 6 year old gets it faster than a 13,15, or 22 year old.
Its all relative. I think people on their 20s might get it faster than a 38 year old.Small kids have no muscles and short attention spans.

[beachbabe]

If you start a 6 year old and an older adult at the same time, there is no study that says that kids will learn fast.No, they might not have fear. But they still take a long time to learn and remember some things.A 6 year old has very little muscle and will take awhile to get them.
I have read of adults on this board that started a few years ago.They get the concept of moves alot faster than any 6 year old.
Im not trying to argue, but I see alot of the kids get it faster thing all over the net.Maybe a 8 year old does get it faster than a 38 year old. I dont think a 6 year old gets it faster than a 13,15, or 22 year old.
Its all relative. I think people on their 20s might get it faster than a 38 year old.Small kids have no muscles and short attention spans.

i think its all motivation, i started at 14 1/2 yrs old and i progressed fast simply b/c i worked hard, and a lot. many of the adult skaters that start out have less time b/c of work, kids etc. so they skate very little and dont make much progress. I see dozens of adults at my rink that seem to stay t the same level for months despite taking lessons.

[batikat]

I started at 38 along with my then, just turned 8-year-old daughter. At the end of one year (we had similar ice time, I had more practice time, I was extremely motivated - she was doing it for fun) I was just about keeping up with her. I was probably ahead of just a couple of the very young kids. Two years down the line she was way more advanced. The real take off point for most kids is somewhere between 6 and 8 years depending on physique and temperament. Adults that learn as adults dont have the same 'take-off' point. Their learning tends to be much steadier and takes longer.

In subsequent years I had more lessons and ice time than either of my kids and they still went whizzing by me in terms of how fast they picked things up.

There may not have been any official study but you ask any parent who took up skating at the same time as their kids and I'd be most surprised to find any adult that could keep up with their kids beyond a year or two at most (even with the saem or more ice time and lessons) and that only if the kid is very young. At some point between the ages of 6 and 8 the kid will leave the adult far behind and they will go much fartehr than the adult ever will if they sitick with it.