toe loop entry

[froggy]

ccw jump/spinner, is there any other entry into the toe loop beside from a rfi 3-turn? my rfi 3-turns are very sloppy, i was thinking of doing a lfo 3-turn onto a right outside edge (sort of what you do when doing the 3 waltz) but my coach doesn't like me doing that. any other suggestions or thoughts?? thanks!

[jp1andOnly]

if you do the outside 3 urn you have to switch feet to pick. Its actually much harder than the inside 3 turn.

My advice practice the 3 turn. Practice checking after the 3 turn

[racytracy]

like the above poster said, you can always do a lfo 3 turn and then switch feet and pick back with left foot but it is considerably more difficult (more steps, more to think about) and i've generally only seen it used when learning doubles and up.

[CrossedBlades]

As both of the above posters have mentioned, you can do a LFO3 and switch feet before you pick. I guess I'm just weird, but the left-foot entry is much easier for me - the extra step doesn't bother me at all.

[cecealias]

I think it depends on the person - for some people they can do a better toe walley than toe loop simply because they have a better LFO3 turn than a RFI3 turn and/or better timing.

I'd suggest working with your coach on what method works best and if your RFI3 can be fixed so that you get the jump to work right for you. Some people find that they get more lift out of the LFO3 entrance but again that depends on the person and their technique.

[Skate@Delaware]

My inside 3's are weaker than my outsides. I just need to work on them more. That being said, the 3 for the jumps should be a bit shallower than the one you do for "figures" or show. Be sure to check very strong. Practice them more, building up more and more speed as you improve. That will help you.

[stardust skies]

When you do a left forward outside three turn and then put your other foot down before you pick, then it's a toe wally, not a toe loop. They're interchangeable, but it's still not the same jump.

Furthermore, I really don't understand why you are trying to do toe loops if you can't do a forward inside three turn. Almost all jumps require three turns, and you should know and master all of your 3-turns before starting jumps. You don't try to find an alternate entrance to a jump because you can't do something basic like a 3-turn....you learn and master the 3-turn and THEN you try to learn the jump. You've got it backwards. If your basics are sloppy, your jumps will be even more so. So what's the use in having even more sloppy elements? Clean them up! :)

[doubletoe]

When you do a left forward outside three turn and then put your other foot down before you pick, then it's a toe wally, not a toe loop. They're interchangeable, but it's still not the same jump.

Actually. . . not true. The toe walley is done from a RBI edge, whereas the toeloop is done from a RBO edge. The RBO edge for a toeloop can be achieved with a RFI 3-turn exit or a LFO 3-turn exit followed but a step down onto a RBO edge. A toe walley is usually done from R/L CCW back crossovers but could theoretically be done from either a RFO 3-turn or LFI 3-turn with a step down onto a RBI edge (although that would be awfully awkward).

[sunshinepointe]

^ I learned the toe walley by doing a LFO3 then stepping onto a RBI edge...was rubbish at it, but it got me where I needed to be.

[Skate@Delaware]

^ I learned the toe walley by doing a LFO3 then stepping onto a RBI edge...was rubbish at it, but it got me where I needed to be.
I also learned it this way....I like it much better than a toe-loop, mostly because I'd rather do outside 3's than insides (my inside 3's suck).

But, as with anything, if you PRACTICE something, you should get better. My inside 3's are slowly improving (slowly). I just put off practicing them sometimes. I shouldn't though. I never know when coach will ask to see them.8O

[daisies]

Actually. . . not true. The toe walley is done from a RBI edge, whereas the toeloop is done from a RBO edge.
Word. Thank you for pointing that out.

If you want to avoid 3-turns altogether, you can get into a toe loop by doing a RFI-LBI mohawk and stepping onto a RBO edge, then tapping. I see some men do quad toes that way.

[stardust skies]

Actually. . . not true. The toe walley is done from a RBI edge, whereas the toeloop is done from a RBO edge. The RBO edge for a toeloop can be achieved with a RFI 3-turn exit or a LFO 3-turn exit followed but a step down onto a RBO edge. A toe walley is usually done from R/L CCW back crossovers but could theoretically be done from either a RFO 3-turn or LFI 3-turn with a step down onto a RBI edge (although that would be awfully awkward).


Hmmm really?? I've never done toe wallys, but I remember one summer a few years back I went to a summer intensive to work with some different coaches and the first thing they asked when we worked on toe loops was "do you do the toe loop or toe wally entry?" and I asked about it and they said it both took off the same way, just the entry changed. I didn't know the jumps took off from different edges! Thanks for that correction!

[Paulie86]

I also find that doing the 3turn on a count of 1-2-3-4 helps, aswell of checking it at each stage. I hope this helps

[luna_skater]

Actually. . . not true. The toe walley is done from a RBI edge, whereas the toeloop is done from a RBO edge. The RBO edge for a toeloop can be achieved with a RFI 3-turn exit or a LFO 3-turn exit followed but a step down onto a RBO edge. A toe walley is usually done from R/L CCW back crossovers but could theoretically be done from either a RFO 3-turn or LFI 3-turn with a step down onto a RBI edge (although that would be awfully awkward).

Agreed; I also do my toe-loop from a LFO3, step onto RBO edge, entry. A high percentage of people at my rink do it that way. I haven't done the LFI3 entry since first learning the jump. The LFO3 entry gives me much more stability on my pick.

You could also do a RFI to LFI mohawk, then step to the right foot and pick...as long as the jump takes off from a RBO edge and L pick, how you get to that position is irrelevant.

[SkatingOnClouds]

I noticed that the elite skaters were using the RFO & switching feet as entry. I've been concerned my toe-loops were more toe-waltzes, so decided to try the different entry.

I find a have a steadier BO edge, consequently I reach back further and more to the back instead of sort of jumping sideways across myself (if you know what I mean). It makes it more like a flip, and I like it better.

I have done toe-walleys, they're quite fun.

[Mrs Redboots]

I'm doing one from a RBO spiral. Just do a RBO spiral, come upright, pick in, and take off! I planned to put one in my Interp 2 years ago, but it didn't happen, then last year I didn't have a back spiral in my routine, but it's there now.

Worst part is, coach wants me to do back X-rolls into the spiral, so the end of my Interp is 3 back x-rolls, RBO spiral, cherry flip (toe loop), push straight from landing position into spin! Sheesh..... Then, because I can't quite get 3 revolutions reliably in my spin, and my change-foot isn't pretty, I have to then do 2 revolutions on my R foot - clockwise!

Then he's complaining that the rest of the programme is too bland..... coaches, what are they like?????

[renatele]

and they said it both took off the same way, just the entry changed. I didn't know the jumps took off from different edges! Thanks for that correction!

Jumps are defined by the take off edge and whether the toepick of the other leg is used or not, not by the way you get to that edge.

It's a quite common misconception, though - especially when it comes to toe-alleys and toe-loops.

[froggy]

Thanks for all the suggestions, you are right that I have to work on basics before attempting jumps etc....however if that is all I did I'd never get to any jumps and spins, I always begin practice and lessons with the basics first :o)

I actually did manage to land several toe loops today doing a rfi 3-turn!! I also did a few waltz-toe loops (the waltz helps be get on the rbo edge i need for the toe loop). Thanks all and happy skating!!

[Skate@Delaware]

What you might also want to try is a basic exercise...just do the jump landing position and hold it. It is a good exercise and if you can hold the position for about 5 seconds or so steady, good for you.

[doubletoe]

I noticed that the elite skaters were using the RFO & switching feet as entry. I've been concerned my toe-loops were more toe-waltzes, so decided to try the different entry.

I find a have a steadier BO edge, consequently I reach back further and more to the back instead of sort of jumping sideways across myself (if you know what I mean). It makes it more like a flip, and I like it better.

I have done toe-walleys, they're quite fun.

Maybe it's time for me tol try that entrance again for my double toe. . . My coach and I decided it wasn't a good one for me because I didn't get down low enough on my skating knee once I stepped down onto the right foot from the 3-turn exit. When I did it from the RFI3, I was still low on my knee when I came out of the 3-turn so I would get a stronger pick.

[doubletoe]

Hmmm really?? I've never done toe wallys, but I remember one summer a few years back I went to a summer intensive to work with some different coaches and the first thing they asked when we worked on toe loops was "do you do the toe loop or toe wally entry?" and I asked about it and they said it both took off the same way, just the entry changed. I didn't know the jumps took off from different edges! Thanks for that correction!

Yes, a toe walley is to a toeloop as a lutz is to a flip. People just don't do them much because they are more difficult than a toeloop but get the same number of points.

[techskater]

Have you considered doing it out of back crossovers or just a back oustide edge? We have a kid at our rink who has a double toe right out of rb crossovers and it sort of comes out of nowhere and looks really cool

[Mrs Redboots]

Have you considered doing it out of back crossovers or just a back oustide edge? We have a kid at our rink who has a double toe right out of rb crossovers and it sort of comes out of nowhere and looks really coolI only have a tiny one, and wanted to do it from a plain back outside edge, which I find easiest, in a "hop, step and jump" competition at our rink - but my coach said that with non-qualified judges (as we are allowed for that sort of competition), they mightn't recognise it if I didn't do the conventional entry!

But in my Interpretive programme I do it out of a back spiral. Well, I call it a back spiral, anyway....

[Skate@Delaware]

I only have a tiny one, and wanted to do it from a plain back outside edge, which I find easiest, in a "hop, step and jump" competition at our rink - but my coach said that with non-qualified judges (as we are allowed for that sort of competition), they mightn't recognise it if I didn't do the conventional entry!

But in my Interpretive programme I do it out of a back spiral. Well, I call it a back spiral, anyway....
I will have to say...we have an advisor at my rink (he is 80 years old and used to be a champ in his day) who says that most jumps from years gone by were done without using a 3-turn. He actually gets perturbed when people can't do a jump without a 3-turn!

He is trying to convert everyone!

He also doesn't like people "hopping" their 3-turns when they do them (he laments the passing of school figures) or people "karate chopping" their arms going into spins.

The other day he asked if anyone knew how to do a choctaw or a bracket or a split-lutz jump (got me on that one).

[doubletoe]

I know how to do a split lutz. . . but doing it is another story, LOL! It's scary trying to bring both legs back together and then getting another half turn and landing backwards on one foot! I have shelved it for now, although I will occasionally do a regular split jump from a lutz entrance, which is just a split half-lutz.

[Skate@Delaware]

I know how to do a split lutz. . . but doing it is another story, LOL! It's scary trying to bring both legs back together and then getting another half turn and landing backwards on one foot! I have shelved it for now, although I will occasionally do a regular split jump from a lutz entrance, which is just a split half-lutz.
It's nice to know that some of the "old ways" haven't died!! (just the dresses-thank goodness!!!)

[vesperholly]

He also doesn't like people "hopping" their 3-turns when they do them (he laments the passing of school figures)
I hop my 3-turn sometimes going into double sals (rushing), and it always screws up the jump. I'm not sure I could do a toe loop without a 3-turn, but I can do a flip from crossovers/BI edge.

I've been downloading figures videos, and I am so impressed with the control of the edges and turns. No wonder skaters are hurting themselves and having terrible jump technique.

[Skate@Delaware]

The latest "exercise" my coach has me working on (key word: working) is to really take my time on the 3-turn and count out each part of it, check, then ride the exit before jumping....it's really, really, hard! She knows that my 3-turns have been an issue since day 1!!! The problem has been the way they have been taught (rushed and not thorough-no thought to arm placement and the word "check" never entered into it).

I have to hand her a medal though, I think I'm her most "challenging" student and she hasn't quit on me! :halo: Although I do force her to "think out of the box" when it comes to getting me or my body to doing things!!!;)

She did fix my spin which was broken due to poor technique (gotta love those LTS classes). That's a whole 'nother chapter right there.

[slusher]

I used to pre-rotate my toe loops too much, so the exercise was: back outside edge, rather shallow, hold for 5 counts, stick toe in, do toe loop. It took the 3 turn entirely out of the picture. So I can do a toe loop from crosscuts or spiral or anything, it was harder to put the 3 back into it. I still have a sloppy 3.

One day at the training centre a few of the older coaches were having a "things you don't see anymore" moment, one younger guy did a a Russian Split-Flip jump. Talk about having to pull your legs in to finish and rotate the flip! my thought: ooooh, groin pull, but no. 8O

Lots of talk and demonstration of figures during that same time, it was very humbling to learn the amount of check required for figures.

[Skate@Delaware]

When I started in the LTS program, no "check" was taught, even for the 3-turns8O . It was wild-arms and windmills all over the place! No wonder mine were messed up for such a long time!

[TimDavidSkate]

I have always tapped in wrong on my toe loops, I would slam my blade in and get up in the air sideways 8O