Basic q - lifting feet on crossovers

[mintypoppet]

In my group lessons, we've all been taught to crossover by (eg FW CCW) picking up the right foot and lifting it over the left before pushing off with it.

I haven't seen any other skaters do this in crossovers - the right foot never seems to leave the ice. I'd like to try that, but how do I do it without getting my feet tangled up? Should my R foot be beside or in front of my L foot?

Thanks,

minty

[renatele]

You do get both feet off the ice in forward XOs - the difference that you see might be that beginners lift the outside foot over the inside (in CCW, right over left) foot very deliberately, and advanced FW XOs are done progressive-style, where the outside foot pushes, then is placed close to the inside foot and ahead of it a little (not crossed), and slides inward for the underpush with the left foot.

[wisniew]

In my group lessons, we've all been taught to crossover by (eg FW CCW) picking up the right foot and lifting it over the left before pushing off with it.

I haven't seen any other skaters do this in crossovers - the right foot never seems to leave the ice. I'd like to try that, but how do I do it without getting my feet tangled up? Should my R foot be beside or in front of my L foot?

Thanks,

minty

Hi Minty,

I've just been through this; both from the group lesson point of view and concurrent private lessons. First off, the basic crossover, which you are describing basically comes first, then the advanced crossunder later. However, for example, in order to pass the ISI Alpha level, you are pretty much only required to do the basic mechanics of the cross-over, but NOT learn what really needs to be learned in order to eventually progress to the much more efficient cross-unders.

(This is such a timely question since I spent my entire private lesson on Saturday, just on this issue.)

I believe we chatted before about outside edges. You don't "get" outside edges, the first time that you happen to get over onto them. From what I can tell and observed and have read here, it takes quite a while to do them right (measured in years and months, not weeks.) There are many elements to the cross-over that need to be mastered before you really can translate into cross-unders: (starting at the top)

a. head/chin position (never/rarely look down)
b. arm position (I know that this gets debated to death with different opinions but I bring it up, because at least for me, what I was told in group lesson didn't match up with my coach). Take it for FWIW, but I was told to have the arms "on the table" and both of them in peripheral vision.
c. (Rotation in) Lets assume we are working on cross-overs on a circle .. You arms, shoulders AND core need to move together and consciously disassociated from the lower body into the circle but ONLY to about 40 degrees, just short of half-way in; and then they STAY in at that angle throughout all the cross-over stroking sequences. (No turning out and in, out and in.)
d. As you do the crossover, you need to be able to glide on both skates for a relatively short BUT noticeable period of time. To do this obviously, both skates must be pointing inthe same direction which means that the cross-over skate MUST be placed down pretty much parallel to the other skate, or your skates will diverge or converge, depending on the relative angle.
e. Now the key part .. the weight xfer to the cross-over leg must be clean, but it must be there. Since we are always talking about a good knee bend scenario, this will require progressive training to be able to pull this off.
f. Then as you loading that weigh xfer you need to consciously extend that leg out ... In fact, I was doing "on the boards" work on this "new alighment" with the coach pulling my leg to show me the ultimate goal of the extension and it is ... lets just say ... new.

What is unsaid in all of this could be the critical part ... maintaining the good outside edge all the way through the extended side push. To facilitate this, this weeks new drill is to maintain a constant outside edge on a circle, and either swizzle or scrape the edge of the "stroking" foot, without that foot leaving the ice. The point is to really begin getting comfortable with maintaining the weight on the outside edge (and maintaining the edge) regardless of what else is going on ... AND ... ensuring/learning/training that all of this should have NO IMPACT on your upper body/core.

Getting the full extension on the extend leg is not necessary initially because we are talking about a new stress level on the bent leg; the muscle balance/memory which needs to be "relearned".

So the net of all this is that the outside edge and balance mechanisms and capacity of the legs to drive need (should?) be all learned and mastered prior to doing crossunders. Oh yea, and getting your balance point "back" to slightly behind I would think is absolutely critical. Any forward lean whatsover on crossunders, I would think is too-pick induced face plant waiting to happen.

Believe me, I understand the impatience to want to do new stuff faster ... But I have to defer to my coach's approach on this one. But as always, YMMV.

My 2 cents.

[mintypoppet]

Wow, thanks for the comprehensive response! I think I'll leave them alone for a little while.

Rather than rushing things, I'm actually going the other way - I drive my practice partner mad by doing a basic element incessantly for hours at a time. I figure that to get good crossovers/3-turns/whatever, I need good edges. To get good edges, I need to work on them, improve my posture/balance, and (as usual for me) I need to understand the mechanics of how they work. I keep working back as far as I can go, and practicing that element ad nauseum, then building up from there to whatever I was doing. So, I'm not getting anywhere very fast, but it feels like it's helping my basic skating.

[wisniew]

Wow, thanks for the comprehensive response! I think I'll leave them alone for a little while.

Rather than rushing things, I'm actually going the other way - I drive my practice partner mad by doing a basic element incessantly for hours at a time. I figure that to get good crossovers/3-turns/whatever, I need good edges. To get good edges, I need to work on them, improve my posture/balance, and (as usual for me) I need to understand the mechanics of how they work. I keep working back as far as I can go, and practicing that element ad nauseum, then building up from there to whatever I was doing. So, I'm not getting anywhere very fast, but it feels like it's helping my basic skating.

Nothing better than hearing the "crunch of the edge" :-)
I'm certainly no expert and am just conveying my training plan. Yours may vary. I feel the same way wrt edges.

I really respect the insights of my coach, but they can't always know what little thing might have a lot of impact that they might overlook. For example, and related to this issue had to do gliding. Besides all this crossover stuff, I need to get moving on backward moves and crossovers for Beta. As coach was critiquing my backward swizzle, he immediately focused on the need to transition into a good glides at the "top" of the swizzle. Short end of it was that I was not returning to very close alighnment with the 2-foot glide ... my feet were too far apart ... thus not on the flats, thus impeding my glide. Then we thought about it for a minute and immediately realized that I wasn't focused on this when doing the crossover. That is, when beginning the original stroke and transitioning to the outside edge for the first time, the greater the lateral separation between the skates, the harder it is to xfer weight cleanly. (Just an example of little things.)

Something else, that I have had to do is to not do outside edge drills ONLY related to cross-overs. I found that I was undercommiting to the outside edge when I didn't have the "crossover in mind". I was just having trouble getting on the edge. Doing, I think it is called a "rollover" is a different outside edge drill, ..., open ice, stroke to an outside edge on a 1-foot glide .. when contracting back, roll to an inside edge, and reverse the stroke ... This is important for me because of my tendency to not work the CW and CCW equally.

That is great that you have a workout partner. Once the Beta class has started up, some of the relatively weaker skaters will have been weeded out and hopefully I can find a partner ... and then I need to find an off-ice workout partner for my early morning workouts at the gym. (I hate doing leg work and need a lot of pushing in that area.)

Cheers and best to you

[Mrs Redboots]

Wow, thanks for the comprehensive response! I think I'll leave them alone for a little while.

Rather than rushing things, I'm actually going the other way - I drive my practice partner mad by doing a basic element incessantly for hours at a time. I figure that to get good crossovers/3-turns/whatever, I need good edges. To get good edges, I need to work on them, improve my posture/balance, and (as usual for me) I need to understand the mechanics of how they work. I keep working back as far as I can go, and practicing that element ad nauseum, then building up from there to whatever I was doing. So, I'm not getting anywhere very fast, but it feels like it's helping my basic skating.Honestly Minty, that's the right approach! You simply can't practice your basic edges and turns too much.

Only thing is, though, don't over-practice. When it starts deteriorating, leave it for today and do something else. There's always something else to work on....

[wisniew]

Honestly Minty, that's the right approach! You simply can't practice your basic edges and turns too much.

Only thing is, though, don't over-practice. When it starts deteriorating, leave it for today and do something else. There's always something else to work on....

(I thought that this might offer some insight into other folx who might be struggling with this ...)

I'm pretty much of a novice (just starting beta in group lessons, taking private lessons also.) Coach in private lessons has been quite intense on working on edges, continuing progression on cross-overs, continued fine tuning on balance and some backward stuff to support the beta group class.

I am finally beginning to see the method to his madness (wrt core control, balance and crossovers).

The next "step" in the never-ending cross-over battle has been his focus on me getting that full weight on the crossed foot and focusing EXACTLY what I am doing with the kick out. What an unnatural position that is! While reviewing the move on the boards, getting the kick out leg to position correctly means the crossed leg has to up against the back of the now gliding leg, where naturally you want to just lazily drift it backwards... the goal being to get the position of the skate parallel to and just above the ice ... if I were to drop it an inch, I would be ona strong outside edge.

While attempting to get into the position, I am seeing that upon entry into the XO, I can't maintain staying on the circle (I am cutting in), and I am having a devil of a time KEEPING the hands on the table at that inside 40 degree angle or so ... the arms keep rolling out and aligning with the direction of my feet. So, Saturday, after watching this, immediately my coach STOPS doing XO drills. We immediately go to working on backward glides, getting skates MUCH closer than I was used to, to enable gliding and then introduced the concept of even being slightly pidgeon-toed and slight outside edges at the top of the backward glide to enable some space between the knees and keep the skates gliding very close. He then tells me that we have to go back and do this for forward glides. "Hey, I can do that fine. Why do we need to start this again?"
And here is where I am introduced to the real problem with my XO's. He has me go back to a normal 1 foot glide (forward) and then says, "Now drop the arms ... get comfortable ... you don't have to do the arms thing anymore for forward gliding. BUT, continue to glide on one foot and turn your upper body to the left please (left foot glide)." And of course, I turn to the left ... skates that is. THERE IS THE PROBLEM. Un and underdeveloped core control and subsequent lack of "separation" of upper and lower body. That's why my arms are following my feet and vice versa. The XO can't be done right until this is licked.

Good news is that a lot of this kind of control training can be done off ice. I was concentrating on keeping arms, shoulders, and core moving in sync that I didn't notice that the lower torso above the knees was following the upper body ....

We'll get there ....

[mintypoppet]

And here is where I am introduced to the real problem with my XO's. He has me go back to a normal 1 foot glide (forward) and then says, "Now drop the arms ... get comfortable ... you don't have to do the arms thing anymore for forward gliding. BUT, continue to glide on one foot and turn your upper body to the left please (left foot glide)." And of course, I turn to the left ... skates that is. THERE IS THE PROBLEM. Un and underdeveloped core control and subsequent lack of "separation" of upper and lower body. That's why my arms are following my feet and vice versa. The XO can't be done right until this is licked.

What amazing timing - this is exactly what I was doing last evening! Trying to keep my arms in line with the curve of the circle, while doing xovers. I kept falling out of the circle, especially backwards (though that's also the lack of a decent BO edge...). I'll try that gliding idea next session.

I'm seriously considering getting some private lessons, because the group ones don't seem to cover things like where your arms should be on xovers, and 3-turns involving moving your shoulders. I'd rather minimise the number of bad habits I need to unlearn.

[wisniew]

I'm seriously considering getting some private lessons, because the group ones don't seem to cover things like where your arms should be on xovers, and 3-turns involving moving your shoulders. I'd rather minimise the number of bad habits I need to unlearn.

I do understand the problem with the group lessons ... too many people .. not enuf time ...

There is a philosophical or perhaps more accurately put "goals" issue here. If I had come in with a "casual" point of view, I am not so sure he would be spending so much time on interweaving the skills as he is. From other posts, it is clear that to do cross-overs "right", you will be at it for a couple of years. My coach is forcing me to get it right ... now ... because he is exposing me to the interweaving of the base building blocks as they are applied. (Hmmm ... that made no sense.) If he hadn't pointed out the problem via the forward glide approach (try and turn) I would still be struggling and not knowing why on the XOs (and trying harder ... and not getting anywhere) but not I am also fine tuning forward balance by doing the "1-foot glide and turn the core without lower body turning" drill. This will obviously address and prep for all kinds of moves.

It is hard to tell without seeing, but the "falling backward" may not be all that bad. I have a tendency to "control" my glide on my left side (bad) which I think is forcing me forward on the blade (bad). When I CW XO's for example, I am a lot faster on the turns because I am further bad on the blade (good) but will lose it going backwards also.

I wasn't quite sure what you meant about your arm position. It wasn't clear to me a while back (and there are differences of opinion here wrt how much you turn into the center) that if you doing continuous XO's then you are always turned in, hands on the table out at the peripheral vision extension and just short of 45 degrees into the turn ... For me, doing this core turn correctly is an entirely different feeling ... but I now know that there is a known path to getting this fixed ... bad news is that ... again :) this is hard.

[mintypoppet]

It is hard to tell without seeing, but the "falling backward" may not be all that bad. I have a tendency to "control" my glide on my left side (bad) which I think is forcing me forward on the blade (bad). When I CW XO's for example, I am a lot faster on the turns because I am further bad on the blade (good) but will lose it going backwards also.


I'm not falling backwards as such. I meant that instead of going in a circle, I end up going in rather more of a straight line ;-)

If I follow the hockey circle around, I end up outside of it, whereas the same problem doesn't occur going forward, as I'm leaning into the circle more. Same problem with backward chasses (my current enemy). I need to work on those outside edges some more.

[wisniew]

I'm not falling backwards as such. I meant that instead of going in a circle, I end up going in rather more of a straight line ;-)

If I follow the hockey circle around, I end up outside of it, whereas the same problem doesn't occur going forward, as I'm leaning into the circle more. Same problem with backward chasses (my current enemy). I need to work on those outside edges some more.

OK ... yea, you need to work those edges ... remember that you need some speed to be able to maintain "more" of an edge. Are you able to do open ice "rock-overs" (I think they are called). I'll send you a note from my coach when I first starting doing these. It will help.

But you can only do so much on your own. A picture in the eye of the coach is worth a thousand public sessions.

Keep on strokin'

Joe

[doubletoe]

You really can't work too much on crossovers. It's amazing what a difference good, strong, smooth crossovers make in the overall appearance of a program!

This may or may not be a useful tip for you at this stage, but when I was working on back crossovers for my Gold MIF test, my coach told my something no-one had ever bothered to tell me before: On back crossovers, think about keeping your upper body leaning slightly outside of the circle, not into the circle. Also, keep your back (leading) shoulder and arm high. It seems counter-intuitive at first, but once you start getting a good lean into the circle with your lower body, this position helps to counter-balance it so you don't wipe out as you pick up speed. And of course the lower you get to the ice (i.e., deep knee bend, especially on the inside/crossing under leg), the more speed and control you will get.

[Anita18]

Wow, I never knew people could get so analytical on crossovers! 8O

It's definitely great to know what you're doing wrong, but it's just skating, and I think the greatest teacher is the ice itself. Whenever I compliment other skaters for their skating, they usually say, "Lots of practice!" rather than "Yup, great coaching!" I've seen coaches with some great skaters and some...not. so great skaters, so I think it's really important to be aware of how your body is responding to the ice, and not depend on someone else to do it for you. Of course, nothing beats a great coach to fix up some long-standing problems, as I learned last summer when I was finally able to take some private lessons with a fab coach. :) Although, I had a feeling that I was able to learn so much from him because I was already fairly comfortable with the things we were working on, so it wasn't like I was learning something completely new.

If it feels exceedingly hard to do something (like your body just...won't...go...that..way) you're probably doing it wrong, LOL. For me, it's usually holding a funky body position. If a move feels clunky, it probably looks that way too, and could be improved.

My rule of thumb - feel like you're oozing all the time. Just thinking about that feeling improves my knee bend and edge use.

To put that kind of thinking into crossovers, definitely keep both knees bent when they're over the ice. The leg should extend straight out only when you're pushing it off to the side, either over or under the skating leg. When the free leg passes over the skating leg, it should be bent and ALMOST touching the ice. If you do it right, you'll feel an inexplicable pull of the edge from the skating foot. The first time I felt it, it was like a light bulb turning on over my head. During crossovers, you should be able to use the edges of whichever foot is on the ice. It takes some practice, but believe me, it feels really cool. :)

With lots of practice, it also doesn't matter which shoulder is leading. Just choose an arm position that feels comfortable for you while you're learning it, and then challenge yourself later with different shoulder positions once you're comfortable.

Yeah, this is just some advice coming from someone who's mostly self-taught, but my temp coach this summer told me that my biggest flaw was being a chicken, not that I was a bad skater. :giveup: I know what I have to do, I just have to get my body to do it. :P

[Skate@Delaware]

You really can't work too much on crossovers. It's amazing what a difference good, strong, smooth crossovers make in the overall appearance of a program!

This may or may not be a useful tip for you at this stage, but when I was working on back crossovers for my Gold MIF test, my coach told my something no-one had ever bothered to tell me before: On back crossovers, think about keeping your upper body leaning slightly outside of the circle, not into the circle. Also, keep your back (leading) shoulder and arm high. It seems counter-intuitive at first, but once you start getting a good lean into the circle with your lower body, this position helps to counter-balance it so you don't wipe out as you pick up speed. And of course the lower you get to the ice (i.e., deep knee bend, especially on the inside/crossing under leg), the more speed and control you will get.
This is exactly what is hit on in the Physics on Ice #1 dvd. I never knew it either and no one at my rink teaches it this way. It's always "hug the circle" with the arms same height and the hip leaning INTO the circle....of course, then you feel off-balanced when you do pick up speed.

The only thing consistent is: BEND YOU KNEES and PRACTICE! :lol:

[Mrs Redboots]

This is exactly what is hit on in the Physics on Ice #1 dvd. I never knew it either and no one at my rink teaches it this way. It's always "hug the circle" with the arms same height and the hip leaning INTO the circle....of course, then you feel off-balanced when you do pick up speed.

The only thing consistent is: BEND YOU KNEES and PRACTICE! :lol:Was working on back crossovers myself this morning, but I have the wrong fault - I don't get my weight enough inside the circle. We agreed about counter-balancing, but I haven't got that far yet. I'm at the point where I'm stepping on to an inside edge, not an outside (coach says Robin Cousins does that, but it's old-fashioned & doesn't get enough power for these days). So I need to have my weight more over the outside edge, and keep it there, even when I'm on the other foot.

For me, the difficult bit is crossing my foot close enough to my front foot - coach showed me that I was crossing it too far behind, so my shoulders moved, which I was trying to make them not do. And on the clockwise one, I was having trouble getting my weight over the inside foot at all!

Oh well, they hadn't been worked on for rather too long was the trouble.

[dbny]

Was working on back crossovers myself this morning, but I have the wrong fault - I don't get my weight enough inside the circle. We agreed about counter-balancing, but I haven't got that far yet. I'm at the point where I'm stepping on to an inside edge, not an outside (coach says Robin Cousins does that, but it's old-fashioned & doesn't get enough power for these days). So I need to have my weight more over the outside edge, and keep it there, even when I'm on the other foot.


Actually, in Physics on Ice, Charlie Butler does say that the your foot takes the ice initially on a bit of an inside edge just until your weight begins shifting to that foot, which happens so fast that it is almost imperceptible.

[doubletoe]

This is exactly what is hit on in the Physics on Ice #1 dvd. I never knew it either and no one at my rink teaches it this way. It's always "hug the circle" with the arms same height and the hip leaning INTO the circle....of course, then you feel off-balanced when you do pick up speed.

The only thing consistent is: BEND YOU KNEES and PRACTICE! :lol:

Well, the hip *does* lean into the circle if you are on deep edges, so that's why the torso needs to counter-balance it by leaning slightly out of the circle.

[Skate@Delaware]

Well, the hip *does* lean into the circle if you are on deep edges, so that's why the torso needs to counter-balance it by leaning slightly out of the circle.
I will have to pay more attention to this next time I hit the rink. I'm so busy trying to get my feet closer together (coach says, "closer...no closer...no even closer..." till my toepick almost hits the heel of my other blade 8O then she says, "good" OMG!

I'm still trying to figure out why the leading arm (back) needs to be higher than the trailing (front) for back crossovers???

(and I can't type...bend you knees....duh well, you know what I meant to say!)

[sunshinepointe]

I'm still trying to figure out why the leading arm (back) needs to be higher than the trailing (front) for back crossovers???

I just think that it has a better line - I've seen people keep the arms level and people who angle the arms, and to me the angled arms look cleaner.

[Mrs Redboots]

Actually, in Physics on Ice, Charlie Butler does say that the your foot takes the ice initially on a bit of an inside edge just until your weight begins shifting to that foot, which happens so fast that it is almost imperceptible.That's true - but mine wasn't actually imperceptible! And how do you get your feet closer together - it's not the click of death that will get me, it's doing the splits, I think!

[dbny]

I'm still trying to figure out why the leading arm (back) needs to be higher than the trailing (front) for back crossovers???


Charlie Butler explains it. When one hip is higher than the other, then the shoulder on that side needs to be lower than the other to counter balance it. For the same reason, the leading arm on FXOs needs to be lower than the trailing arm.


And how do you get your feet closer together - it's not the click of death that will get me, it's doing the splits, I think!

Something that helped me is to think of BXOs as B push unders instead of cross overs. That helps to focus you on pulling in the inside foot/leg.