Need encouragement, advice, or a swift kick, please (long & ranty)

[nerd_on_ice]

I know we've discussed the topic of fear many a time, but I need to pull it out once more and blow the dust off. I'm getting so frustrated with myself that I feel like this smiley x 100: :frus:

I've been skating about 3.5 years now and I love it. Did my first competition last weekend (I skated ISI Freestyle 1) and had such a good time! But in my lesson today it was back to work; I am trying to learn the salchow and although I keep trying, it's not happening. My fear is stopping me. I rarely fall, and I know all the conventional wisdom that if you're not falling, you're not trying. But I assure you, I am trying! It's not just the sal, either. I can't do 3-turns and mohawks with any speed, can hardly do inside 3s at all, and my waltz jump looks like a hiccup (and that's after months, if not years, of effort). I can practically taste that salchow but I wonder if I'll ever get it. I could probably survive the Pre-Bronze test but Bronze and up looks so far out of reach, and it's all because of this problem. I am physically fit and kinesthetically smart enough to do what needs doing, if my "lizard brain" would just get on board.

I know we have to give ourselves credit for what we have accomplished, and I try to. But I know I am capable of more and fear is holding me back. I don't consciously panic and put the brakes on; I don't think about falling or even feel frightened when I see someone else fall. But when I try something I'm not comfortable with, I wimp out every time. My body simply disobeys. I have to chip away at new skills, little by little, over months until I finally reach a comfort level, and I don't have the patience.

I don't mean to be melodramatic, but I've honestly started to wonder if the fear I feel is just like everyone else's. I am usually good at controlling my mental state but this is different. My mother tells me I've been cautious like this ever since I was a tiny baby--of course, she is my mom, so she thinks my overactive self-preservation instinct is great!

Okay, rant off. Um...thoughts? I am gonna have to buy my coach a present after actually STOMPING MY FOOT in my lesson today. Any words of wisdom are appreciated, and thank you for letting me brain-dump this.

[Isk8NYC]

Listening to your concerns, I would say you need to prioritize your practices and master the turns first. Some edge work and practice will help, so start working on your Pre-Bronze/Bronze MITF. It will help your freestyle skating overall, as will ice dancing.

I laughed out loud when my coach suggested (many years ago) that we start working on a double salchow. I hated that jump as a single! While I can do it, even to this day, give me a loop or an axel any day! I know I'm in the minority, but it feels good to know others struggle with it, too.

You need the Salchow to move up to ISI FS 3. So, focus on other jumps first and don't obsess about the salchow. I did something similar when I first learned the flip: I just couldn't do the dratted jump. I just practiced spins and other jumps for a few weeks. Only made one or two attempts at the flip during the practices, and worked on it with my coach during lessons. I landed it about a month later.

You're probably on a plateau, so hang in there.

[TashaKat]

Okay, rant off. Um...thoughts? I am gonna have to buy my coach a present after actually STOMPING MY FOOT in my lesson today. Any words of wisdom are appreciated, and thank you for letting me brain-dump this.

LOL, I've done that too! I'm good at the foot stamp when I'm frustrated with myself :??

The thing is that this fear thing is there to protect us, unfortunately that instinct is stronger in some people than others. Doesn't help you much but it would if you'd got a tiger after you :) My fear instinct is crap, I'd be eaten before I even thought to run away ... I'd be looking at it thinking "aw, what a nice kitty".

Don't worry about not falling over, I didn't start falling a lot until I got the loop then it was kaboom, kaboom, kaboom ... even more so when I got to the Lutz!

I would definitely work on the basic though, in my opinion the basics are THE most important and difficult skills to get right. Unless you have the basics then the more advanced moves will be so much more difficult.

Would working with another coach occasionally help you? Sometimes you feel that you can 'get away' with more when you know someone better. I know that I seem to up my ante with a new trainer/coach/teacher. It may be just enough to push you forwards a bit more.

Do you ever just skate to the music without thinking? What are you like when you do a programme? It may be worth having a programme with your nemesis moves in so that you can get into a rhythm and, hopefully, the music and rhythm will help you to push through your fear a tiny bit.

Wish I could be more help but I'm not very good at fear, I either avoid the thing completely or face it head on and b****r the consequences :roll:

Anyway ... all the best x

[phoenix]

ITA, you need to go back to basics & work on those until they are very solid. If you're not comfortable w/ a 3 turn, how can you expect yourself to be comfortable going into a salchow? As my coach would say, you can't build the house if there is no foundation.

Moves or dance would be your very best friend & my own advice (understand that I'm a dancer & wouldn't care if I never jumped again...) would be to lay off the jumps completely for at least a couple of weeks while you focus on strengthening your edges & work on your balance in turns. Do lots of knee bending exercises & very simple stroking/edge exercises. Do them a LOT. Like for an hour each time. After a few weeks, then go back to your waltz jump & see if it feels any better.

Example: I actually took 5 years off from dance & did freestyle. Never did jumps beyond flip though, & not a good spinner at all. Then 3 years ago went back to dance full force & with a vengeance. A few months ago, I decided to run through my jumps just to see if I could still do them, having not jumped *at all* for almost 3 years. ......They were better, higher, faster, than when that was all I was working on! Hmmmmmmm........

ETA: I had to find out where the nearest Starbucks is to the rink, so my coach regularly gets a cup of coffee after lessons when I've been particularly bratty! :lol: (it's fairly often.....)

[TashaKat]

Moves or dance would be your very best friend & my own advice (understand that I'm a dancer & wouldn't care if I never jumped again...) would be to lay off the jumps completely for at least a couple of weeks while you focus on strengthening your edges & work on your balance in turns. Do lots of knee bending exercises & very simple stroking/edge exercises. Do them a LOT. Like for an hour each time. After a few weeks, then go back to your waltz jump & see if it feels any better.

Completely agree, personally I'd go for dance because you also get the rhythm, flow and music. It's easy to get a bit 'stuck' on the field moves (I hated them even though I know that they're a necessary evil ;) Loved dance though :) ).

ETA: I had to find out where the nearest Starbucks is to the rink, so my coach regularly gets a cup of coffee after lessons when I've been particularly bratty! :lol: (it's fairly often.....)

LOL, what is it about skating that brings out the 'Kevins' in us? I'm not as bad when I'm riding but skating and dance really regresses me to the stroppy teenager :giveup:

[Kevin Callahan]

LOL, what is it about skating that brings out the 'Kevins' in us? I'm not as bad when I'm riding but skating and dance really regresses me to the stroppy teenager

What, what? Is this a reference to me? If so, explain.

I'm not going to be much help, but since you're polling normalcy, I'll toss my experience out there.

Afraid? Slightly, but it never stops me from trying. I have bruises, scrapes, scratches, rashes, and blisters all over my body. Maybe it's because I started with hockey, where you just learn that it's part of the game to get hurt. Maybe it's because I'm so determined. Whatever the reason, I fell perhaps three or four times a day. I just get up and try again.

As to the salchow specifically, yesterday I got it. However, every single time I attempted to duplicate it, I fell right over. Once on a previously bruised knee, and let me tell you, that hurt something feirce. The issue with the salchow for me, is that the difficulty doesn't lay in the jump so much. Switiching feet isn't the issue, it's that I'm uncomfortable with a left inside three turn followed by what seems conceptually to be a small spin that comes before switching feet. I was never able to duplicate the jump because I could never complete that small spin again.

[jp1andOnly]

ummm..there is no "small spin" in a salchow. If you have learned it that way then you have learned it incorrect. The "small spin" syndrome happens when you learn it incorrect. And trust me its a hard habit to break. Similar to a toe-loop. Its not and inside 3 turn followed by a waltz jump as many kids were taught. So now I struggle with a simple toe-loop becasue I am working on double toes and have horrible technique on it.


What, what? Is this a reference to me? If so, explain.

I'm not going to be much help, but sense you're polling normalcy, I'll toss my experience out there.

Afraid? Slightly, but it never stops me from trying. I have bruises, scrapes, scratches, rashes, and blisters all over my body. Maybe it's because I started with hockey, where you just learn that it's part of the game to get hurt. Maybe it's because I'm so determined. Whatever the reason, I fell perhaps three or four times a day. I just get up and try again.

As to the salchow specifically, yesterday I got it. However, every single time I attempted to duplicate it, I fell right over. Once on a previously bruised knee, and let me tell you, that hurt something feirce. The issue with the salchow for me, is that the difficulty doesn't lay in the jump so much. Switiching feet isn't the issue, it's that I'm uncomfortable with a left inside three turn followed by what seems conceptually to be a small spin that comes before switching feet. I was never able to duplicate the jump because I could never complete that small spin again.

[phoenix]

it's that I'm uncomfortable with a left inside three turn

small correction: should be left *outside* 3 turn into the salchow.....

[sunshinepointe]

I didn't know it was an inside three turn at all? I do mine from a left forward outside 3 turn....granted I was told I was doing my salchow all wrong after posting some videos so...:giveup:

[Kevin Callahan]

Outside, not inside. I apologize. I meant outside.

ummm..there is no "small spin" in a salchow. If you have learned it that way then you have learned it incorrect. The "small spin" syndrome happens when you learn it incorrect.

Can you describe the steps? I'm only applying what it conceptually seemed like to me. It is quite possible I am merely using the wrong terminology. When I completed it, it made sense, and it was nothing like a waltz jump.

[Isk8NYC]

If you're not taking off from a LBI edge (CCW rotation), the takeoff is not correct. If you do a bit of a turn or "spin" on the ice before you takeoff, it's called "cheating the jump." It's usually a question of timing and lessons/practice will take care of the problem.

Not everyone uses a LFO 3-turn entrance, either. I've seen it done from a mohawk entrance as well as just from incredible edges! I prefer the 3-turn myself.

Meanwhile, back to nerd_on_ice: is this helping you? Everyone's said to focus on the basics, practice, and be patient. Maybe increasing your speed and the ability to control it will help you overcome the fear?

[Kevin Callahan]

If you're not taking off from a LBI edge (CCW rotation), the takeoff is not correct. If you do a bit of a turn or "spin" on the ice before you takeoff, it's called "cheating the jump." It's usually a question of timing and lessons/practice will take care of the problem.

Okay, I am taking off from a LBI edge (CCW rotation), but I believe I am "cheating the jump" although I am not clear on how you can get into the proper position without swinging your leg around before take off.

Meanwhile, back to nerd_on_ice: is this helping you? Everyone's said to focus on the basics, practice, and be patient. Maybe increasing your speed and the ability to control it will help you overcome the fear?

Once again, I didn't mean to hijack a thread, but it's nice to know that many of us are working on the same elements. I would hope that my clarifications are helping anyone who has the same questions as me. I wish I could offer more specific encouragement, nerd_on_ice, but I'm afraid I just don't have the same amount or reaction to fear as you do. All I can offer is that pain is a part of the process, and that it's worth it.

It also may have to do with how much you skate. I try to skate daily, for at least two hours. That's a lot of practice time. You say that you've been skating for three and a half years and that it takes you months to master an element, but I wonder if you're really just not giving yourself enough credit. Perhaps you're right on schedule, your hours are just spaced out more than mine. I mean, as an extreme example, the day I learned my waltz jump, I spent eleven hours on the ice. Eleven hours. And my landings still need work.

Perhaps then, you could find more time on the ice? I've been told by coaches and skaters alike that if you have the talent, it's just a matter of hours in the ice.

[nerd_on_ice]

is this helping you? Everyone's said to focus on the basics, practice, and be patient. Maybe increasing your speed and the ability to control it will help you overcome the fear?

Definitely helpful, yes! Thank you! Considering that the best ideas I could come up with on my own were "change hobbies" or "get brain transplant," I really appreciate everyone's suggestions. And I think you ("all y'all") are right that getting more comfortable with speed & power will help me overall. Besides, doing a salchow is all well & good but if I can only ever handle going into it from a standstill, my options are still quite limited! :lol: I'll talk to my coach at my lesson on Thursday and see what she thinks. I know she would be open to me taking a couple of lessons from someone else, so I will consider that as well. It's a great idea but we'll have to see if my budget can absorb it.

Perhaps then, you could find more time on the ice? I've been told by coaches and skaters alike that if you have the talent, it's just a matter of hours in the ice.
"If" you have the talent might be a big "if" in my particular case, but I do think you have a point. My skating time has never been extremely consistent; I'm an adjunct instructor at a university 35 miles away, so my schedule is bizarre and my budget is tiny. This semester, for instance, I'm limited to skating the public sessions Tuesday and Thursday mornings and Friday afternoons for a max of 2 hours each time. I find it hard to stick it out on a session if I'm feeling discouraged or if I know I have other work waiting for me at home. So if I make it a priority to skate that full 6 hours a week, that will likely help me.

[Skate@Delaware]

Sometimes we need to have a different person teach us a particular move in order to "get" it. It's just the way that they can explain it or help us to get it. That happened to me with the salchow (imagine that!) I didn't get it until I got a private coach and she broke it down for me. After a few weeks, I got it!

We are doing the same with the backspin (and spins, the flip, the loop.....)

See what I mean? You are not alone in this! She is also getting my position fixed on 3-turns (my arms were "wrong") and getting me encouraged to speed up on my jumps. Everything is slooooowly improving. Not quickly, but I'm ok with that.

I wish we could all get together and skate together! We would have so much fun! Hang in there and try not to get frustrated-it will all come together. Talk with your coach. Have you prioritized and set goals? My coach had me do that the first time we met and the following week I had to give her my goals and dreams for the year! It gave us something to work for, though.

ps-I still don't like to fall :cry:

[VegasGirl]

I've been skating about 3.5 years now and I love it. Did my first competition last weekend (I skated ISI Freestyle 1) and had such a good time! But in my lesson today it was back to work; I am trying to learn the salchow and although I keep trying, it's not happening.

I sooo feel for you!
The Salchow has been a bit of a challenge for me as well, not because of fear but just because I tend to rush through it (as well as a couple of other tricks) and make my life harder because of it!

My fear is stopping me. I rarely fall, and I know all the conventional wisdom that if you're not falling, you're not trying. But I assure you, I am trying!

I believe that you're trying... I too don't fall... actually it became sort of a challenge for my coach to try to make me fall. He finally succeeded when having me do a backward spiral-back lunge combination. :twisted:

It's not just the sal, either. I can't do 3-turns and mohawks with any speed, can hardly do inside 3s at all, and my waltz jump looks like a hiccup (and that's after months, if not years, of effort). I can practically taste that salchow but I wonder if I'll ever get it.

You sound almost like a dear friend of mine! She has the same problems, though she'd never even concider even trying a Salchow at this point, so you're ahead already!
I found what helped her is steady encouragement and no pressure... so who cares if it takes a bit longer to learn a new trick and so what if you can't make them with as much speed as other skaters? Are you having fun doing it? If so that's really all that counts!!! That and that you're doing your personal best... and that's what it sounds like to me. So don't sweat it... and once you relax about it the rest will come too. :)

One more thing... if you aren't already, have someone tape not just your competition but also your practices. We tend to be our own worst critics and most of the time without even realizing how much we improve with time!!! A tape will show you.

I am physically fit and kinesthetically smart enough to do what needs doing, if my "lizard brain" would just get on board.

Wow, now that could have come out of my mouth... a lot of times I feel exactly the same!

But I know I am capable of more and fear is holding me back. I don't consciously panic and put the brakes on; I don't think about falling or even feel frightened when I see someone else fall. But when I try something I'm not comfortable with, I wimp out every time. My body simply disobeys. I have to chip away at new skills, little by little, over months until I finally reach a comfort level, and I don't have the patience.

Then get mad... no seriously, I find that useful every now and then... gives you that push you need to get back on track!

[flippet]

Have you ever tried the sal in a harness? For some coaches, it doesn't even occur to them to put anyone in a harness for less than an axel, but I think that for a number of adults, it can really help, mostly with the fear issue. If you know that someone's there to 'catch' you, you can put more oomph into going for it. Maybe if you try it a few times, and you realize (with your body as well as your brain) that the world's not going to end if you go at it with a ounce more speed, or get an inch of deeper knee bend for the take-off, perhaps you can then put that little bit extra into it when you're not in the harness, because you can tell yourself that you've 'done it' before.


Kevin, there's no 'spin' of any sort in the sal. The 3-turn before the jump should be fairly shallow (especially since most of a beginner's experience with 3's before learning jumps are the ones that start and end on a line...not shallow at all), and you want to really check the backwards edge before the jump. At the end of the back edge, there's a 'hook'...the edge will curve to the inside sharply as you take off. You're pulling your free leg through at the same time, and pulling your arms in. The hook is the start of your rotation--it begins on the ice, but you complete it in the air.

[nerd_on_ice]

I wish we could all get together and skate together! We would have so much fun!

I have had this thought more times than I can count. Oddly, none of the adult skaters I'm acquainted with (half a dozen or so) is working on testing; one of them competes ISI only occasionally; that one is the only who even has a coach, to the best of my knowledge. I'm not taking issue with their choices but it would be nice to hang out with people who have goals similar to mine.

Then get mad... no seriously, I find that useful every now and then... gives you that push you need to get back on track!
That's true! I had a big burst of determination for New Year's and made some real improvements.

I'm sure I will say this over again later but I really appreciate all of you who have responded. Your comments are so encouraging and useful. :bow: :bow: :bow:

[Kevin Callahan]

Kevin, there's no 'spin' of any sort in the sal. The 3-turn before the jump should be fairly shallow (especially since most of a beginner's experience with 3's before learning jumps are the ones that start and end on a line...not shallow at all), and you want to really check the backwards edge before the jump. At the end of the back edge, there's a 'hook'...the edge will curve to the inside sharply as you take off. You're pulling your free leg through at the same time, and pulling your arms in. The hook is the start of your rotation--it begins on the ice, but you complete it in the air.

Can you provide either a diagram or a video clip? I'm pretty decent at shallow 3-turns. It's actually the long 3-turns (on a very non-shallow curve my coach insists) on that give me trouble. I can do them all day long while skating around the ice in no particular pattern. I think what I might be calling the spin you might be calling the hook. Without a pattern or another skater to look at I can't tell you whether or not I did it correctly. Since I originally did not have any questions, I'm fairly certain I understood the concepts of what I did.

[Chico]

nerd_on_ice,

The fear thing on salchows....I get this with my nemisis the backspin. I understand what your saying because I have feelings similar to what you describe. Some days I can do them sorta but then I can go weeks being afraid. I'm not scared of axels, trying 2 sals or 2 loops, but I almost throw up working on backspins. Fear is a bad thing. All I can tell you is to break up the skill in parts and keep trying. I keep trying to like the experience of backspins....not that I can say I'm winning. Practice those 3 turns, salchows are about control in the entry. Watch skaters who can do salchows and think about what you saw. Pick skaters carefully for teachers. Ask your coach to show you and imitate her/him. I like doing this with my coach as they do it. It helps me pick up on their rhythm of skills.

Chico

[flippet]

Can you provide either a diagram or a video clip?

I wish. I'm not as technically savvy as some on this board, but it really takes going out and checking the tracing you leave on the ice. Too much curve on the ice, and you're 'spinning' it, probably by 'swinging' your leg around, rather than through. Just like on the waltz or axel, you want to lift straight through with your free knee, like you're going up the stairs. It's the concept of, say, punching someone in the nose straight from your shoulder, rather than swinging your arm around from the side. There should be a certain amount of a 'J' hook to the take-off tracing, compared to the edge coming in, but not going so far as to curve back on itself.

[Kevin Callahan]

Actually, I was able to track down a clip from Sk8stuff.com, and I am fairly certain that I've done it correctly if the clip is to be believed. There is definitely a complete revolution after the 3 and into the take off. Or at least it looks like what I would term a revolution, again, perhaps there is some aspect of the terminology I am missing.

Granted this is NOT a single, I was paying attention to the footwork for the take off. Landing of course is a standard RBO landing.

http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_j_salchow.htm

[jp1andOnly]

no...watch it again slowly..there is no full revolution on the ice.

[Kevin Callahan]

Then what would you call that curve after the three turn? That's exactly what I did. Watching it slowly, I can see that it is not a full revolution. I was counting the momentum from the three turn. Admittedly, it sure looks like a fairly long turn.

Now, this is what I both see in the video, and what I did:

Left outside three turn, swing right foot around (this is what I was previously calling the spin or the revolution, ie, what was confusing me), launch, rotate, RBO landing. Is this or is this not a salchow? If it is, then I was successful in doing it. If not, how can I still be confused at this point? It really doesn't seem to be that complicated.

[EastonSkater]

I don't mean to be melodramatic, but I've honestly started to wonder if the fear I feel is just like everyone else's. I am usually good at controlling my mental state but this is different. My mother tells me I've been cautious like this ever since I was a tiny baby--of course, she is my mom, so she thinks my overactive self-preservation instinct is great!

Okay, rant off. Um...thoughts? I am gonna have to buy my coach a present after actually STOMPING MY FOOT in my lesson today. Any words of wisdom are appreciated, and thank you for letting me brain-dump this.

Your cautiousness is natural. If you're not thinking of being a pro or anything like that, then slow and steady progression is absolutely fantastic. Once you get real comfortable with doing the things you do, then there might be a time when you think you're going to start working with something else. It's all part of the fun of skating....each time you're learning, you're writing the chapter of a book. When you've learned the skill, you complete the chapter of the book. For me, I reckon most of the fun is the act of chipping away at things .... because once you're good at it, it becomes boring...or at least...not as special as when you first mastered it. Although, with skating....there's so many different components to learn that it's kind of hard to get bored with it hehe

[TashaKat]

LOL, what is it about skating that brings out the 'Kevins' in us? I'm not as bad when I'm riding but skating and dance really regresses me to the stroppy teenager

What, what? Is this a reference to me? If so, explain.


I don't know you well enough to answer that :D

A 'Kevin' ... taken from the sketch 'Kevin and Perry' which was made into the film 'Kevin and Perry Go Large'.

A Kevin starts out as a normal, happy 12 year old. He loves his mum, is polite, pretty much does what he's asked to do, dresses nicely and goes to bed at a reasonable hour. HOWEVER when the clock strikes midnight on the eve of his birthday he turns into a 'Kevin'. He grows a backwards facing baseball cap, baggy pants, straggly hair and attitude to spare. He yells at him parents, everything is so unfair, he's lazy, thinks that they're treating him like a slave and loses the power of speech except the 'grunt'. He can still be polite to his friends' parents but at home he drives his own parents to distraction. It's called the 'teenage years'. Judging by my horse's behaviour in her 'teen' years (about 4-7 in horses but that varies) I think that the female varient should be 'Saffy' :D

Hope that explains it :)

[Kevin Callahan]

I don't know you well enough to answer that :D

A 'Kevin' ... taken from the sketch 'Kevin and Perry' which was made into the film 'Kevin and Perry Go Large'.

<snip>

Hope that explains it :)

I am deeply, deeply offended.... I would never wear baggy clothes or a backwards cap.

[sceptique]

I kept freezing on my salchow entry just before the take-off and had no idea how to fix it. One of the techniques my coach suggested was to do a 3-turn into a 1 foot spin, do a couple of revs and then instead of the exit do a little jump out of the spin. I think it helped, but I also think that at some point then your body "knows" that you'll be safe doing it, it just lets go - and you'd be surprised how nice and easy it is.

[Mrs Redboots]

I can't do 3-turns and mohawks with any speed, can hardly do inside 3s at all, and my waltz jump looks like a hiccup (and that's after months, if not years, of effort). My dear girl, I've been skating for eleven years, give or take a few months, and I still can't do a 3-turn with any speed solo, and not a very great deal of speed when partnered (although it is improving). I can only just do a Mohawk without slowing down, and that not reliably. My 3-jump is more like a 3-step (sorry, waltz jump for Americans), and my salchow is so cheated that it doesn't have any rotation, but goes round on the ice and then hops backwards. Not that I do jump much, but for Interp you need the odd little hoppy thing. I saw a glimpse of myself on television last night, and I looked like someone who has been skating eleven days, not eleven years.

I am not an athlete!

But I don't let that stop me, and I've won competitions (against opposition, not just against the book) (okay, only "Interpretive", but still), and last season we even managed not to come last a time or two. Only just, and not reliably, but we did it! And we even beat our absolute greatest rivals in the last class of the last competition of the season, much to our joy.

So what I'm saying is, even though it's scary, keep on with it, because it's fun. You may or may not improve - I expect you will, as you have youth and slenderness on your side, unlike me - but who cares?

[blue111moon]

I'm not addressing this to any specific individaul, anywhere, but just making a general observation.....

Over my 20+ years of skating as an adult, one thing I've seen many times is people who "expect" skating to come more quickly than it often does, because they were/are athletic, have dance backgrounds, or just never ran into something that was hard to learn. A lot of these people make up timetables in their heads for learning certain skills ("Okay, I've been working on a toe loop for six months, I should have it by now.") and then get frustrated when it doesn't happen on schedule. A lot of these people quit because they can't stand the idea of not progressing swiftly, especially when they see others around them picking up things before they do.

Me, I think that one of the joys of skating as an adult is that there is NO timetable for how quickly I have to learn something. I'm an incredibly slow learner it took me over 15 years to learn decent spins and it's only been in the last six months that I've understood HOW a backspin happens. The first couple jumps came easily but I struggled with the loop for years and I still can only do it from an inside three and not out of crossovers. The flip has come and gone - and now mostly stays gone - and the lutz terrifies me so much that I can't even work on it unless I've feeling very brave and reckless.

But it doesn't matter. My life will not end if I never land a lutz and I do have other skills that have improved over the years. When I get frustrated - and believe me, I do, I have to remind myself that when I started this adventure, all I wanted to do was learn how to stop, go backwards and maybe learn to go around corners (crossovers, although I didn't know what they were called then). I've done that and so much more. Everything else is whipped cream on my ice skating sundae.

Working on basics like edges and threes is never ending. I think that's one of the things that makes skating so challenging - even when you think you know something, as soon as you combine it with something else or put it to music or move it to a different place in the rink, it gets harder or disappears. It's the nature of the sport.

But it's also fun. And that's what keeps me coming back year after year - and fighting the fear and frustration. If one thing gives me trouble, well, thee's always something else to work on - and something new to learn.

[coskater64]

Skating is a great sport because you can never really be perfect at it. There is always room for growth and you can always do things better or differently. With that in mind, you have a lifetime to perfect the sport.

As many have said some people come to the sport with greater ease than others, but...the ability to stick to it counts for a lot. While I am very athletic I am not built like a skater, it takes me years to get jumps, when I get frustrated I work on spins and moves or my dances. You just need to stick to it will all eventually come to you.

[quarkiki2]

Hi, NOI,

I think I could have written your first post (minus the salchow), LOL!

I've been at this skating thing for four years now and still struggle with all of the three turns and mohawks at speed. I've finally JUST started working on a forward scratch spin and was struggling enough to get into it without tapping my freet foot down when I pop into the spin that my coach suggested I might do a better job with a backspin. Never thought I'd hear that!

I've come into this from a dance background and am surely NOT body stupid, just brain stooopid. I've been told that if you never looked at my feet, you'd assume I was doing everything perfectly because I really AM -- I just can't manage to do it all on one foot -- ever.

I dream of skating; in my dreams I skate fast, smoothly, and with great confidence. In reality, I am an adult skater working very hard to not look choppy and wobbly. I'm just now to the point that my synchro team doesn't have to slow down to my speed to keep in a straight line, thankfully. That was actually my goal for the year -- to NOT stand out on my team.

I get frustrated because I'd be a champion wall skater (as in I skate really well on the wall and would medal if I could bring the boards out as my partner), but I can't seem to find any courage to go solo. It's getting better, bit by bit. And some things I do surprise me -- we've included two foot twizzles in our new synchro program and these were so easy for me the first time I tried that I was exiting them with as much speed going into them and having to put on the brakes to avoid teammates who slow down through the turn. This could be why my coach thinks the backspin will be easier for me than a forward spin...

It's just dumb the way I need to use two feet -- I drop my free foot AFTER completing a three turn, AFTER doing the mohawk, AFTER getting into my forward scratch -- when I actually have to go out of my way to get myself off balance. Duh!! Grrrrr!!!

Anyway, NOI, I'm right there with you. And I'll keep plugging away until I can't any more. My dream move is a camel spin -- I've got a gorgeous position off ice… And a Bielmann -- also good position off-ice (If I hold my shin instead of my blade, I can get a complete straight-legged split)... Someday......

[Skate@Delaware]

Here's the tips that helped me with the salchow:
-count your 3-turn; as you turn from your back crossovers (or other method that turns you forward) you should say "turn, 1, 2, turn (flip the 3) hold 1, 2, jump, (land) hold 1, 2. Once you get your timing, it helps with consistency and you don't hold one position too long.

-watch your arms! I found that after I jumped it, it helped me to look hard over my left shoulder. Remember to keep a very strong check!

-as you enter your 3, bend! It helps keep it from getting too deep AND gives you something to spring up from! You can't get any height if you are already up in your leg (took a while to get this one!)

-Don't rush it! Your count should NOT be fast!!! It should be to the speed that you are skating (fast=quicker; slow=slower). As you build confidence, you will build speed!

When I was "re-learning" this jump, my coach wouldn't let me do the whole thing at first. We did the back crossovers to front, then added the 3-turn, then worked on the back glide of the 3, then added the jump. The whole process took a few weeks. Then one day, I was practicing it and I did it! It will happen!!! I'm hoping that the loop will happen the same way:roll:

[VegasGirl]

I'm not addressing this to any specific individaul, anywhere, but just making a general observation.....

Over my 20+ years of skating as an adult, one thing I've seen many times is people who "expect" skating to come more quickly than it often does, because they were/are athletic, have dance backgrounds, or just never ran into something that was hard to learn. A lot of these people make up timetables in their heads for learning certain skills ("Okay, I've been working on a toe loop for six months, I should have it by now.") and then get frustrated when it doesn't happen on schedule. A lot of these people quit because they can't stand the idea of not progressing swiftly, especially when they see others around them picking up things before they do.

Me, I think that one of the joys of skating as an adult is that there is NO timetable for how quickly I have to learn something. I'm an incredibly slow learner it took me over 15 years to learn decent spins and it's only been in the last six months that I've understood HOW a backspin happens. The first couple jumps came easily but I struggled with the loop for years and I still can only do it from an inside three and not out of crossovers. The flip has come and gone - and now mostly stays gone - and the lutz terrifies me so much that I can't even work on it unless I've feeling very brave and reckless.

But it doesn't matter. My life will not end if I never land a lutz and I do have other skills that have improved over the years. When I get frustrated - and believe me, I do, I have to remind myself that when I started this adventure, all I wanted to do was learn how to stop, go backwards and maybe learn to go around corners (crossovers, although I didn't know what they were called then). I've done that and so much more. Everything else is whipped cream on my ice skating sundae.

Working on basics like edges and threes is never ending. I think that's one of the things that makes skating so challenging - even when you think you know something, as soon as you combine it with something else or put it to music or move it to a different place in the rink, it gets harder or disappears. It's the nature of the sport.

But it's also fun. And that's what keeps me coming back year after year - and fighting the fear and frustration. If one thing gives me trouble, well, thee's always something else to work on - and something new to learn.

Great post... thank you... and couldn't agree more!!!

[flippet]

Left outside three turn, swing right foot around (this is what I was previously calling the spin or the revolution, ie, what was confusing me), launch, rotate, RBO landing. Is this or is this not a salchow? If it is, then I was successful in doing it. If not, how can I still be confused at this point? It really doesn't seem to be that complicated.

You're probably turning way too far after the three-turn, and essentially taking off going forward (kind of like you were for your toe-loop, turning it into a toe-waltz). These are all common beginner-teaching-themselves errors, and can be corrected. (I say this as a skater who essentially taught herself the toe loop and salchow one summer--and then had to break down all the bad habits later.)

A salchow still takes off going backward. Check your tracings--your curve should be only about 1/8th of the way around by the time you see the pick mark, indicating take-off. Maybe think of it this way--if your entry edge (the LBI edge after the 3) is a line from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock, the hook should curve no more than to about 23 minutes past the hour. It won't be quite that straight, but that's the idea. (Draw a line from 12, through the center of the clock where the hands attach, then curve to 23 past...that's kind of what the hook looks like.)

Beginners almost always think that the leg comes 'around' in a salchow, as if you're spinning. It does not. Let's say--stand with your arms straight out in front of you. When you bring your knee through, you want to aim it towards your left hand. (Your left hand won't be there any more, since you're curving around slightly and should also be pulling the arms in, but you want to aim the knee where the hand would have been if you were standing straddling your entry edge before the hook comes into play.)

I hope I'm not just confusing things more. I wish I could show you personally...it's so much easier to explain things in person (especially with my funny little metaphors!)

[nerd_on_ice]

Once again, I'd like to emphasize how awesome you all are. Not only do I have a bunch of new ideas and approaches to try, I feel so much more encouraged than I did when I wrote my original post. Thank you, everybody!

[VegasGirl]

by the time you see the pick mark, indicating take-off.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Salchow is not jumped off the pick but rather the edge... so preferably there shouldn't be a pick mark.

[flippet]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Salchow is not jumped off the pick but rather the edge... so preferably there shouldn't be a pick mark.

It is an edge jump, but the pick is the last thing to leave the ice. It's not a hole or divot like you might get with a toe loop or lutz, but there is definitely a mark left by the pick as it leaves the ice.