Further Updates

[Kevin Callahan]

With my graduate school applications, I sadly haven't been practicing every day. However, some interesting things are happening. First, I'm pretty sure I'me starting to make progress with breaking in my Teris. Unfortunately, I'm now getting rubbing.

If my boots are loose enough to allow me to move at all, my heels move up and down and I get blisters. If tighten them further, that is, I lace them up all the way, I can't bend my ankles anymore and my ankle bones feel like they're in a vice but my heels stay seated properly. Adding padding around my ankle bones helps, admittedly, but I still need to lace them in such a way that I can bend my ankles, otherwise landing jumps is just downright painful.

Oh, and I can now do my toe loops while moving, albeit not necessarily with good form.

[miraclegro]

Hey, i can relate to the "Break in " problems. I had a new pair that i was going to have to send back and have a new "impression" of my foot done. Of course, i am on the back end of a broken ankle, so i'm sure the skate company doesn't want a mold of my foot right now! Ha Ha

Something that might help: Put your hard blade guards on and just walk around the house in them, go up and down stairs (carefully) and it might speed up the break in process!

I know its frustrating because you are always trying to get the "right" tightness of the laces in the beginning.......hope it all goes well!

[Kevin Callahan]

Already, trying to do this. My house doesn't have stairs, so that's out.

[luna_skater]

Did you get them heat molded?

[Kevin Callahan]

We've discussed this before, I have not had them heat-molded. My coach doesn't want me to, and I wouldn't even know where to go to get them heat molded even if he did.

[luna_skater]

I know we've discussed this before; that was a while ago and I didn't know if things had changed. My opinion hasn't...I personally think it's crazy to be bending over backwards to try and break the boots in without heat molding them, so I can't offer any further advice! :)

[phoenix]

We've discussed this before, I have not had them heat-molded. My coach doesn't want me to........

Well, then you're left w/ good old fashioned time spent in them and grinning & bearing it. Breaking in boots is NO FUN, very painful, and you have stiff ones to break in & you're not doing the big elements that would help break them in faster. It's horrible, I can sympathize, but unfortunately that's the way it is.

[Kevin Callahan]

Well, I apologize for not being clear. :/ I wasn't so much asking for advice as merely keeping you all up to date.

I'll approach the subject with Tim at our next lesson. Barring that, I still don't even know how heat molding works. Is there a website perhaps that explains the process? I'd like to know what I was getting into before I decided to do it, especially if I'm going against the wishes of my coach.

Which admittedly, it something I am loathe to do.

[sue123]

Well, I apologize for not being clear. :/ I wasn't so much asking for advice as merely keeping you all up to date.

I'll approach the subject with Tim at our next lesson. Barring that, I still don't even know how heat molding works. Is there a website perhaps that explains the process? I'd like to know what I was getting into before I decided to do it, especially if I'm going against the wishes of my coach.

Which admittedly, it something I am loathe to do.

Heat molding isn't such a big deal. I just had it redone to fix some heel problems. Basically, they stick the skates into an oven for a few minutes, and then on your feet for about 30 mins. You lace them up tight, wearing the socks you normally do, and then sit there. That's it. As it cools, the leather stays in the shape of your foot. I don't even think most places would charge you for it, at least they didn't where I got them done. It's amazing, your foot fits so nicely in the boots afterwards.

[TaBalie]

Agree about the heat-molding -- it makes no sense not to.

Go to any ski shop place -- they have the convection ovens and know how to heat-mold if your local skate shop doesn't do it. It is not a permanent thing -- if you hate them after you heat-mold them (which I can't imagine), you can heat them again and they will return to the original state.

[miraclegro]

The master skate fitter that sold me my Klingbeils told me to put the oven on very very low heat and put them in for about 10-15 minutes and then put them on. That was because he was about 4 hours away and i couldn't do a lot of "heat molding" with his official machine thingy. Needless to say, i never did put them in my oven because i was terrified i would burn them!

I can't even "not" burn my brown and serve rolls!

I did, however, put them in front of the heat vent at home and then wear them some. NOt as good as "heat molding", but i think it helped some!

It will all work out in time! BLessings!

[TaBalie]

Are Klingbeil's heat-moldable? I don't think they are...

[luna_skater]

I had my skated heat-molded when I bought them. Same procedure as others mentioned...they heated them up in the back room, then I put them on and wore them for about 15 minutes. I was instructed to do NO BENDING; I could "march" around as long as I wasn't bending my foot/ankle.

When I was skate shopping last spring, I tried on a pair of Edmonton Specials at one skate shop. The guy there heated them up (just a bit, not full out) and let me try them on, even though I hadn't committed to buying them yet. The difference in comfort was amazing. I didn't end up buying the boots, but it was no problem; he'll just mold them for the person who does.

[Kevin Callahan]

I'm headed to the ice in about four hours. Guess it can't hurt to ask.

[luna_skater]

Just read your first post again and wondered how you are lacing your boots...a lot of people recommend leaving the top hole as well as hook unlaced for the first while. If you're not already doing this, it may help.

[Mrs Redboots]

I wouldn't even know where to go to get them heat molded even if he did.Your kitchen! You're supposed to put them in a fan oven at a very low heat for a few minutes, but a gas oven worked very nicely for my husband's.

[Kevin Callahan]

I did a salchow today. And was unable to duplicate it.

Charles, the rink owner, said he could heat mold them for me if I wanted him to.

[Kevin Callahan]

Since this is a further update, just going to add on rather than start a new thread. Seems silly to do otherwise.

I actually had a pretty decent skate today, and the boots felt, in general, much better. One of the main causes of this, I think was that I switched to thinner laces. It kept the boots tight and yet somehow the security didn't hurt as much. I also added some mole skin here and there to pressure points. I've pretty much got my toe loop nailed down entirely. I can also do three, sometimes four jumps in a row without screwing up the landing. Basically a toe-loop/waltz jump combination although which comes first is a matter of what I'm feeling like at that particular moment.

No salchow. No spins. Three-turns blew today, and I'm not sure why. I had the support, and I had the comfort. They just weren't there. The biggest issue I dealt with today was a blister on the inside side of my heel on my left foot. I covered it with a second skin and tossed bandaids over it. Unfortunately, all it did was cause the boot to rub RIGHT BELOW the covered portion. So now instead of one blister, I have two blisters side by side. Because of this, I finally broke down and took up the owner's offer of a free heat-molding. We can hope this will make a difference.

[luna_skater]

I finally broke down and took up the owner's offer of a free heat-molding.

Wohoo! Let us know how it goes!

[Kevin Callahan]

I will do that now, since I just got back from a freestyle session. That puts my hour total at 5 for today in case anyone keeps track of my extreme time on the ice besides myself and my coach.

I'm a believer. I don't know why Tim was so against it, but before the heat-molding I was constantly having to deal with that persistant set of blisters; some kind of heel problem, I guess. Earlier today, I took my skates on and off twice, and not only had the blisters hurt on the ice (despite the padding I have on them), they hurt even more when I put the skates on or removed them. After the heat molding, that is the freestyle session, not only did the blisters not hurt at all on the ice, but there was just a touch of a sting when removing the skaters. Nothing that was really annoying, less than a pinch, really. How suprising. Other than that, they just in general felt good, solid, and finally comfortable. Still a little pressure on the ankle bones, but not much. Not enough for me to really notice, certainly not enough to warrant punching.

Oh, and I've managed to get a consistent "half-salchow" I either can't get high enough or enough rotation, so I end up landing going foward and not on my RBO edge.

[racytracy]

Something that might help: Put your hard blade guards on and just walk around the house in them, go up and down stairs (carefully) and it might speed up the break in process!

i've heard that this is actually a bad way to break in new boots because it will break them in to the way you walk not the way you skate. has anyone else ever heard something to the tune of this?

[vesperholly]

Laces can make a huge difference. Cotton ones choke my feet, but nylon ones rip my skin and don't feel tight enough. I use the cotton-nylon blend.

You also have to "break in" laces so they're soft enough. When I first got my skates, my fingers were sore and red every time I skated because of the laces. After about a week, they were fine.

[stardust skies]

i've heard that this is actually a bad way to break in new boots because it will break them in to the way you walk not the way you skate. has anyone else ever heard something to the tune of this?

Yup, and it's true. Your weight isn't distributed the same way when you walk as when you skate, so if you walk around in them more than necessary to get to and from the ice before breaking them in, you'll get creases in the wrong places, which will not only make skating uncomfortable, but will make it hard to subsequently ever get the books broken in right for skating. That's why people are discouraged from breaking skates down by walking or hanging out in them. Some people argue that as long as the blades have been mounted, it's okay, but the weight is still gettinf distributed differently when you walk than when you skate, whether blades are on or not, so as far as I know it makes no difference and it really should be avoided.

[Kevin Callahan]

I don't know if this is going to work, video of me attempting a salchow:

I guess not. Link here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72spitUKfLM

[sunshinepointe]

Well...my salchows aren't hot either, but - what I noticed....

The 3 turn is very wild (mine are too!) and not checked. The jump itself is very rushed...the free leg isn't coming all the way through and you're only getting half a revolution. I'm sure the more experienced skaters on here can offer more tips and advice - they did for me and I'm now a lot more aware of the little things.

But I will say this - I think you're doing really well for someone just starting out. I've been working on my salchow for like, 7-8 months and mine still stinks heh. Keep practicing....I would really try to focus on getting the 3 turn under control...I'm working on this myself.

[phoenix]

Kevin--your arms/back/torso play a huge role in making jumps work. In your video from the waist up you're kind of doing a rag doll impression--you need to be held up, & you need to use your arms/shoulders to check the 3 turn, left arm forward right arm back, then scoop w/ the right arm as the right leg comes forward to help launch yourself & create rotation for the jump.

You're also rushing a lot--You need to slow the whole thing waaaaaaaayyy down & get all the pieces lined up in the right order.

[racytracy]

when i skated years and years ago my salchow was my worst jump. i was terrified of it. now 6 years later it's my best. checking after the 3 turn is sooo important. it just seems like you kind of "lose control" of the jump for a minute or so to me. i always count through my jump steps in my head while i do it:

1. three turn
2. check
3. jump

if it turns out to be a height issue, the more you bend yr knee the higher you will go.

[Kevin Callahan]

Kevin--your arms/back/torso play a huge role in making jumps work. In your video from the waist up you're kind of doing a rag doll impression--you need to be held up, & you need to use your arms/shoulders to check the 3 turn, left arm forward right arm back, then scoop w/ the right arm as the right leg comes forward to help launch yourself & create rotation for the jump.

You're also rushing a lot--You need to slow the whole thing waaaaaaaayyy down & get all the pieces lined up in the right order.

Yeah, after this video was shot, I had a skater come up and tell me exactly the same. That I wasn't checking or scooping, and I was going too fast. Under her direction I managed to get two more decent salchows, but they were in between probably twenty other jumps that looked exactly like the one in the video. Usually by the time I've passed the element I know I should have done differently, that's when I realize I've done it wrong, and it's too late.

when i skated years and years ago my salchow was my worst jump. i was terrified of it. now 6 years later it's my best. checking after the 3 turn is sooo important. it just seems like you kind of "lose control" of the jump for a minute or so to me. i always count through my jump steps in my head while i do it:

1. three turn
2. check
3. jump

if it turns out to be a height issue, the more you bend yr knee the higher you will go.

That sounds very helpful, thanks.

[luna_skater]

It also may help you to just practice the entry in isolation, without actually jumping. Do the three-turn with a strong check, and then hold and press that back inside edge. You should actually feel yourself pick up speed if this is done right. Keep that right shoulder back; don't let it swing forward.

In the video, it looks a bit like you are trying to use your free leg to swing yourself around. You want to sit on your back inside edge, and swing your free leg "in" and "up." You will push up off your skating foot, and the energy from the edge is what will cause you to rotate...you don't want to twist or swing your body in order to try and get rotation.

[Kevin Callahan]

And here are my other jumps for you to critique and tell me what I am not checking or scooping for. ^_~

http://www.youtube.com/?v=dkRgZlVJxuM

[phoenix]

It's pretty much the same thing. As you start your toeloop your arms are dangling at your sides.

I always make my kids learn the arms part of a jump first. We 'walk' through the jump doing first *only* the entry, until the arms/body are coordinated and controlled. Then we add the *tap* of the pick (if it's a toe jump), then we make it a "pop-up", where you do the entrance, reach back & pick & jump, but with no rotation, & you land on your landing foot in a strong held landing position. So they're doing all the pieces of the jump, with the arms, before they ever start to rotate it. IMO it works much better to break it down like that--jumps are all about timing & having everything happen in the right sequence, & that's just too complicated for a beginner to put together all at once.

You're also turning your picking foot so you're really jumping off the blade, not the toepick. It's an easy mistake to make & you need to really focus on keeping that foot straight up & down as you reach back & pick (this is also related to the fact that you're pre-rotating--as you take off your left arm is already behind you).

And here are my other jumps for you to critique and tell me what I am not checking or scooping for. ^_~

http://www.youtube.com/?v=dkRgZlVJxuM

[stardust skies]

Do you have a private coach, Kevin?

[Kevin Callahan]

Do you have a private coach, Kevin?

Two, in fact, as I've mentioned mutiple times. Tim Chilcott is my primary coach, he is a Gold Medalist in Freestyle and a British Skating Association Silver Dance Medalist. Tim is also former British professional championship medalist. Barry Kamber is my secondary coach. He's a friend of Luke Chilcott, Tim's son, who [Luke] was also the 2005 (I think, may have been 2004) British Novice National Champion. One of the Brits can correct me if my info is wrong here.

[jenlyon60]

I'd sort of like to echo what some of the others have said... it looks to me like you need to spend a bit of time focusing on just good strong basic skating skills such as stroking, checking your turns (both into the turn and out of the turn).

Working on these skills will help you get your upper body under control, which will make everything else work better (jumps and spins, etc.)

FWIW, even though I'm working on my Silver dances, which are about halfway up the test ladder, I spend probably half of most lessons and all of at least 1 lesson a week working on stroking drills to improve power and flow and control.

JMO...

[stardust skies]

I agree with Jenylon. The reason I asked you that, Kevin (and I'm sorry I forgot you mentioned having coaches before, my attention span isn't that large) is because you do not look at all ready to be doing these jumps. Obviously this is in no way criticism as you haven't been taking lessons very long and most people wouldn't be ready to do these jumps- your progress is completely adequate.

But from looking at your salchow, it's evident that you do not yet know about edges, turns, checking, and body positions to successfully do this jump. It doesn't look like a salchow attempt at all. The toe loop and waltz are a little better, but it's the same problem. The reason I thought maybe you didn't have a coach is because a responsible coach shouldn't be teaching their beginning student tricks before that student is even able to do a satisfactory three turn. Learning the basics turns off a lot of people, but it's figure skating, not figure jumping. You should enjoy doing moves and learning just basic stroking and turning, if you don't, this sport will be a nightmare for you as you will need to learn all of the basic skating moves if you should ever hope to compete successfully.

You seem eager to learn so I doubt you are refusing to learn the basis, but perhaps your coaches are not stressing them enough. I don't know. I just know from looking at those jumps that you really shouldn't be learning them yet- and THAT is your main problem, in my humble opinion. What you should be learning are good three turns, which really, are 3/4 of your jumping pass. A great coach once told me..."98 percent of errors in a jump happen at take-off. If you have a great take-off, the odds are the rest of the jump will follow." And it's true. I would learn the take-offs, and not worry about jumping until you do them correctly. Learn to do edges on the lines. Learn to check three turns (can you do an entry 3-turn as if you were going to do a salchow and then check your arms enough to glide out on that edge for a good 10-15 seconds? You really should be able to hold the back edge of the three turn until speed stops you...), learn body positions. Then, everything will come naturally.

That's what I believe. Obviously if your coach disagrees, he wins. :)

[Casey]

Laces can make a huge difference. Cotton ones choke my feet, but nylon ones rip my skin and don't feel tight enough. I use the cotton-nylon blend.
My fitter prefers and strongly recommends Nylon ones, as Graf provides. I've found through trial and error that I hate them, and cotton works MUCH better for me. The only thing I like more about the nylon ones is that the black color tends to be darker.

[Kevin Callahan]

That was a lot of text, startdust_skies, so I'm not going to quote it. I don't disagree with anything you've said, although I believe it warrants some explanation.

I really need to videotape myself while I have a coach present. Believe me, the outcome is different. When I am alone, I'm lazier than I should be, and I rush a whole lot. It's not that I don't know how to check or scoop or bend my knees, it's that I get caught up in just doing (because frankly, I enjoy it, and that's the whole point, right?), that I don't do these things. However, when I have a coach around, everything gets immediately much better, because I'm aware I'm being watched, and I am aware of what that coach is looking for.

However, you are certainly correct, I do need to focus on basics, but I'm kind of... refining the basics and ;earning the jumps at the same time? It's hard to describe, because I'm not a total beginner. Another thing I've said before that you may have forgotten. I have skated before, as a hockey player, and I've done bits and pieces over the years on figure skates. It's not that I dislike basics, since if there are too many people on the ice, that's what I practice anyway, I'm just determined the cram as many concepts into my head as possible and then refine. Tim seems to agree, although he's never said that in such terms. Let me explain a typical lesson, and maybe it will become clear, and you are free to disagree with his coaching style:

1. Forward Stroking
2. Backward Stroking
3. Forward Crossovers
4. Backwards Crossovers
5. Inside Edges/Outside Edges
6. 3-turns
7. Mohawks
8. Waltz Jump
9. Toe-Loop
10. Salchow

The one thing that is missing, and we'll really, really need to start working on, is that you will see no spins. I can't spin, and Tim has only done the barest of teaching on that subject. But I've already let him know I consider this a mistake. I have a lesson with Barry the monday after the monday coming up. Perhaps he'll be able to say more about this.

As for your description of my progress as "adequate," the term is obviously subjective. You do mention that I haven't been taking lessons very long, and with that being the case, I consider my progress quite more than adequate. Besides, I have an approach, a philosophy, if you will. I'm not going to be patient, I'm not going to let the elements come to me. I know for a fact many of you will disagree with this philosophy, but if it wasn't for the decision, once again, to do, then I would not be doing at all. I'm going to charge into the sport, and if that means lots of badly executed elements prior to consistent successful elements, so be it. I already am unafraid to leave the ice battered, bruised and bleeding. I simply won't take a "No, you can't do that" for an answer.

[Casey]

The one thing that is missing, and we'll really, really need to start working on, is that you will see no spins. I can't spin, and Tim has only done the barest of teaching on that subject. But I've already let him know I consider this a mistake. I have a lesson with Barry the monday after the monday coming up. Perhaps he'll be able to say more about this.
I didn't even try to spin in a lesson until after I had a fairly decent toe loop and salchow. It's *not* an easy thing to learn - it will just take literally hundreds if not thousands of tries. Don't give up - you'll get it eventually. :)

[sue123]

I didn't even try to spin in a lesson until after I had a fairly decent toe loop and salchow. It's *not* an easy thing to learn - it will just take literally hundreds if not thousands of tries. Don't give up - you'll get it eventually. :)

I have to disagree. I started spinning before I started jumping. She showed me both, and I took up spinning much faster than jumping. It depends on the person, I guess. But for me, jumping is much harder to learn than spinning. Maybe it's the whole *crap, my feet are leaving the earth, adn the ice is hard and doesn't bend* issue. But I'm working on it, I'm even putting more speed into my jumps now.

[luna_skater]

I'm going to charge into the sport, and if that means lots of badly executed elements prior to consistent successful elements, so be it. I already am unafraid to leave the ice battered, bruised and bleeding. I simply won't take a "No, you can't do that" for an answer.

With all due respect to your opinion, I'm afraid all you're going to end up with are a lot of bad habits, which are extremely difficult to undo. Based on the videos you showed us, I have to agree 100% with what stardust skies wrote. If you do have the opportunity to video yourself during a lesson, or even immediately afterward, it would be great for us to see the difference.

[stardust skies]

My fitter prefers and strongly recommends Nylon ones, as Graf provides. I've found through trial and error that I hate them, and cotton works MUCH better for me. The only thing I like more about the nylon ones is that the black color tends to be darker.


I was wondering where you had disappeared off to, Casey!

[stardust skies]

Hi Kevin! I won't quote your text either, we're both chatty today. :D WARNING: Largest wall of text I have ever composed ahead. Please excuse the ridiculous length of this..I couldn't stop typing.

1. You are lucky that you actually get BETTER when your coach watches. I suck when my coach watches. I think I've got a jump or move down and then my coach watches and it sucks. But...there is a difference between not executing an element properly because of fear, and still displaying the knowledge of the element, and doing every piece of an element wrong and displaying lack of comfortability with the basics needed for the element. It may be better while your coach is watching, but the video clearly displays that you have not yet mastered the very basic things you will need for the jumps you are trying to do- and again, you started lessons not long ago (whether you skated a little before or not, without instruction it is pointless, and doing hockey isn't going to teach you 3-turns or how to stay off of your toepick...) so it's totally normal that you haven't mastered them yet. But you will at least need to do them correctly and with some ease to get those jumps, and there is no way that you can go from that video to correct basics just because your coach is there, unless he is magical.

2. I think that your philosophy is the reason it will probably take you longer than the average talented (because if your coach says you are, I am sure he is right..and it's usually how talented people think anyways, the way you are thinking, so I definitely believe it) person would to learn the elements of figure skating. You seem like a logical person, and what I don't think you get yet is that the basics ARE the jump. You cannot be trying to refine/learn the basics AND learn/refine the jumps at the same time. It's counterproductive. Let's say you're trying to master forward outside 3-turns, and a salchow. Well, you're totally wasting time here...if you are in a hurry to learn, you're making it twice as hard. Because first you are working on your 3-turns, but then you are working on trying to jump off of a 3-turn when you can't do the 3-turn right yet, confusing your body about what you just worked on with the 3-turn- because trying to jump off of a 3-turn when you can't do a correct 3-turn forces you to do really bad ones, as per your video, and muscle memory RECORDS that and stores it in the brain for next time, meaning the time you spent working on just 3-turns before working on the jumps was completely pointless because your brain will remember your 3-turn attempts in your jumps and it will cancel all the correct stuff you fixed earlier out.

3. I didn't see you skate before your lessons. To me, for someone who's been on the ice before and was a good enough skater to play hockey, has private lessons and extremely expensive advanced equipment, your progress is average/adequate. That is not a cut down, but it seems like you think it is, because you want to try and be superhuman and learn things faster than the human body is capable of doing. There is nothing wrong with progressing normally. You will find that in skating, your philosophy will greatly hinder you. Once you get mechanics into your head, they are nearly impossible to break. If you rush through things now, they'll be with you forever. You can't plan on learning things "well enough" now and then going back in later to fix them so they're better. It doesn't work that way. What you don't understand is that this sport is based off of muscle memory. You said you don't mind doing a lot of poorly executed elements before doing good ones: you will understand the secret to this sport when you understand that if you do a ton of badly executed elements...you will NEVER do good ones. NEVER. The muscle memory needs to remember good ones to do good ones. If you do bad ones, they'll stay bad. What coaches do to "trick" the mind into doing good jumps is not to allow students to do something before they are ready- to keep them from doing them badly and engraining it into their brains. Instead...they do walk throughs. So, for example, if a student is not ready for a double salchow, then instead of making them try anyway...they make them do single salchow/single loop combos, or single salchow into backspins. This is to trick the mind into thinking you are doing the jump, when you are not. But you hit all the correct positions. After a few months your brain will put everything together, and THEN you'll be able to jump. So for single jumps it's the same thing, but even less glamorous cause there is not jumping: you do the crossovers, you do the 3-turns, you hold hold hold hold hold and then you step onto your landing foot, do a backward double three-turn to simulate rotation, and then you hold the landing position. For toe jumps, you do the 3-turn, pick in, jump off of it and into the air WITHOUT rotation, to understand the concept of weight transfer (and it takes a while, you think you get it because you can do the jump without rotation but as soon as rotation comes into play it's all out the window, that's why, even if you have no problems jumping up without rotation, you need to keep doing it to engrain it in your brain) and then land. You should also be working on bunny hops for your waltz jumps- that's a jump you should definitely be doing, bunny hops. You have no idea how much they'll help you in the future.

Is all of this fun? NO. Do you need it? Yes. Do you need to do just that until you actually have mastered the very basics of this sport if you ever want to have any type of quality or skill to your skating? Yes. I think it will take you a very very long time to accept this, and in the meantime, I accept that everyone has to make their own mistakes. I just took the time to try and warn you because it's something I really believe in- taking your time in order to get ahead. The concept sounds ridiculous, but in this sport, it's anything but.

Good luck Kevin.

PS: As you can guess, I do not think it is an error for you not to be working on spins. You could try some two foot spins. But I'm sure your coach sees how you work and sees that if you get started you'll probably try one foot spins before long and since you do not have mastery over 3-turns, not only will you not get a one foot spin until you do manage to get 3-turns correctly, but you could realllllllly hurt yourself. Falling over that entry edge HURTS. Plus, the more "tricks" he gives you to work on, the least likely you are to work on the basics. Spins take longer than jumps to learn. If you got started on them you'd never get to your basics. Basics aren't fun, I know..but if you took 6 months to work on them seriously, you would be able to do all the jumps and spins you want for the rest of your life. Most people go through the Learn to Skate structure and do spend at least 6 months working on JUST moves stuff. I know you know how to skate, but so do a lot of kids in Learn to Skate. But none of you know the basics of *figure* skating, and that's what they learn, free of tricks like jumps and spins to distract them. Any jump or spin you try to do now will take you 10 times as long as they would if you did know the basics. So by bogging your training down with jump and spin attempts that you will never get so long as your basics aren't fixed, you are wasting royal amounts of time. If you had the basics, all you'd have to do is jump up. It'd be a walk in the park for you. But take the hard road if you must. I really have said everything I can possibly think of to try and dissuade you of it.

I apologize for the huge wall of text- but I wouldn't have felt right not trying to reason with you. The decision now is yours alone, but at least you have some thing to maybe think about a little.

[phoenix]

Don't forget, of course, that you have to pass moves in the field tests before any freeskate tests, so the system will force you to work on basics anyway. If you can't do a waltz 8 or edge rolls, you'll never get to perform a program.

The basics are what ALL of skating is built upon. If you don't have strong controlled basics and good technique, you'll never have good jumps, no matter how much enthusiasm you throw into them. Get enthusiastic about being a great skater......and all great skaters will tell you the best skaters of all are the ones with great basics. That's why, while Matt Savoie was skating his LP at the Olympics, one of the commentators said, "every skater in the building is watching him and admiring him right now."

I'm working on my pre-gold & gold dances. But every lesson for more than half, we work on stroking and edges. And sometimes we never even get to dance patterns for weeks on end. But then every time we do go back, it's gotten better because of the work I've put in on the basic stuff.

Stardust Skies is doing triples, other skaters here are at high levels (sorry, I don't remember where everyone is...). Maybe they know whereof they speak......maybe they've seen this all before......

[TaBalie]

Agree with everything stardustskies said... I skated competitively as a child... Things like balance, holding a deep edge, being able to check a three-turn, having nice leg extension and form with your free leg when you land -- these are all essentials. It isn't productive to work on jumps (or spins) when you can't do the basics. I used to dread figures, but they made me a better skater--and the muscle memory is still there. I hate moves in the field, and wish they would go back to the old system.

[luna_skater]

Agree with everything stardustskies said... I skated competitively as a child... Things like balance, holding a deep edge, being able to check a three-turn, having nice leg extension and form with your free leg when you land -- these are all essentials. It isn't productive to work on jumps (or spins) when you can't do the basics. I used to dread figures, but they made me a better skater--and the muscle memory is still there. I hate moves in the field, and wish they would go back to the old system.

Excellent post stardust skies. I agree as well. When I was younger, I took Canskate and Canfigureskate. I learned up to a loop jump, poorly. I quit Canfigureskate when I was bout 13, and only did synchro. When I was 22, I decided to take private lessons because I wanted to be a better skater, and the rules of synchro were changing so you had to be a lot more confident with your individual skating skills. I spent two years getting all my dances and skills, and then last spring I started to learn free skate. I had all my single jumps within about 2 months of skating once or twice a week. While learning salchows, toe-loops, and flips, we didn't have to spend eons working on the entrances because I could already do solid 3-turns. With the loop, it didn't take me long to be able to do it out of backwards cross-overs because my body understood the mechanics of being able to ride the edge before I popped up to do the jump. Spinning was hard, but spin entrances weren't. I had no problem riding a powerful FO edge and "hooking" it to begin the spin.

Basics are EVERYTHING. Kevin, I bet that if you quit jumping for a month and worked on nothing but edges and turns, when you went back to jumps they would improve 100%.

[dbny]

ITA with everything Stardust Skies has said, and the others also. The fact that you can do whatever you can at this stage, no matter the quality, speaks to your innate ability and talent. However, no matter how talented one is, there is a point where serious, and many times boring, work is necessary to progress. You are at that point. Take a very good look at your posture in the videos. Then watch any of the Olympic competitors. Look only at their posture: the positions of their head, shoulders, arms, hands, free leg. Compare. You really need to fix those things before you can continue. Skating begins with the head. When you get your head right, and your shoulders and arms right, your legs and feet will be able to do what you ask of them. There is only so much your lower body can do without the cooperation of your upper body first.

[jp1andOnly]

I'll just add...

Think of skating like playing a musical instrument. If you want to play concertos or solo works you have to have really strong basics. For example, playing the flute. Now, you need insane breath control. This doesn't happen overnight...it takes years and years. If you don't develop it, then when you go to play a concerto or some other difficult piece of music, you won't make it through the runs nor will you be able to hold the note steady with a pure and consistant tone. Then look at the tone of the instrument..perhaps the violin. In order to achieve a lovely tone, which is VERY important when playing in an orchestra or doing solo works. it takes many many years. If you don't really learn how to create a proper tone then people won't be so intranced by your playing. Thing of Yo-Yo Ma. His tone is incredible!

If you neglect the basics, your overall performance in the future will suffer. You will learn bad habits that never go away. When you move onto a new teacher, they will make sure you know of your habits and try to fix it..by then it might be too late.

I predict you will get frustrated with the sport within the next couple of years and quit if you don't learn how to be patient. Yes, its fun to try new things but you can't brush over the old stuff sayings you've done a great job.

You have a fiery attitude which is good, but I think you'll be in for a rude awakening if you aren't careful.

[phoenix]

Let me explain a typical lesson:

1. Forward Stroking
2. Backward Stroking
3. Forward Crossovers
4. Backwards Crossovers
5. Inside Edges/Outside Edges
6. 3-turns
7. Mohawks
8. Waltz Jump
9. Toe-Loop
10. Salchow

As for your description of my progress as "adequate," the term is obviously subjective. You do mention that I haven't been taking lessons very long, and with that being the case, I consider my progress quite more than adequate. Besides, I have an approach, a philosophy, if you will. I'm not going to be patient, I'm not going to let the elements come to me. I know for a fact many of you will disagree with this philosophy, but if it wasn't for the decision, once again, to do, then I would not be doing at all. I'm going to charge into the sport, and if that means lots of badly executed elements prior to consistent successful elements, so be it. I already am unafraid to leave the ice battered, bruised and bleeding. I simply won't take a "No, you can't do that" for an answer.

A. Assuming your lesson is 1/2 hour, that's an average of 3 minutes per element. During one particularly horrid stretch in my skating career last year, we spent 6 WEEKS on forward outside edges. Plus every practice on my own in between. I used to have assignments like, 100 3-turns on each foot, before the next lesson.

B. I hope you don't feel like we're all ganging up on you here. I think your attitude & energy is great--I'm just trying to encourage you to direct it in a different direction--slowing down adding to your list of "tricks", and throwing yourself into getting stronger & controlled. I'm especially saying this because I know you want to be a competitive skater. If all you wanted to do was play around & have fun, I'd be more likely to say, fine, go for it, go have some fun. But for a serious skater, which I know you want to be, it takes knock down drag out hard work (and don't be fooled, the basics of skating are NOT as simple or easy as they appear!).

C. I know you're very encouraged by your progress, and you probably should be (I don't remember how long you've been skating). But I would like to point out that there are probably others of us on the boards who were "prodigies" as beginners too....maybe that's why we're trying to caution you. Natural talent will get you to a certain point, and after that you have to put in the work. I've seen skaters zoom through to intermediate very fast & then plateau for quite awhile. I did it when I hit my silver dances. So when you're saying to us, "look how far I've come!" We're saying to ourselves, "yeah, you have no idea yet...."

To give you an example, I started skating with group classes (having never skated before) in January when I was 27. In April I started private lessons w/ an ice dance coach. In August I tested my first 6 dances, the next 3 in November, the next 2 in February, & the 3rd pre-silver in May. So in just over a year (from the start of private lessons), I was through my pre-silver dances. I don't know of anyone else who's done that (though they're probably out there).....but then my coach moved away, I wallowed for a few years, went through a couple of coaches, passed 2 silvers, went back & tested standard track (2 dances) for a little while, then quit altogether for 5 years & did freestyle.

Now I've been back to dancing for 3 years, with my current (and LAST, I swear!!) coach for almost 2 years, and I just recently am feeling like I'm starting to really *get it*. And that's mainly because my coach makes me work endlessly on....basics.

Anyway....I applaud your fire & ambition, just hope you will approach it w/ a little humility & respect for the process, & will listen to those who have gone before, who are trying to help you see the best place to put your energies.

[Isk8NYC]

i've heard that this is actually a bad way to break in new boots because it will break them in to the way you walk not the way you skate. has anyone else ever heard something to the tune of this?

No, I've never heard that it sets them to walk mode instead of skate mode. This may be fallout from the new heat-molding recommendations that you NOT walk around while the skates are cooling on your feet. The motion affects the molding process, which makes sense.

Wearing skates around the house with guards is a tried-and-true method that's been around for years. In addition, damp socks are usually worn with them. Realize that this advice is from BEFORE heat-molding came on the scene.

[luna_skater]

No, I've never heard that it sets them to walk mode instead of skate mode. This may be fallout from the new heat-molding recommendations that you NOT walk around while the skates are cooling on your feet. The motion affects the molding process, which makes sense.

Wearing skates around the house with guards is a tried-and-true method that's been around for years. In addition, damp socks are usually worn with them. Realize that this advice is from BEFORE heat-molding came on the scene.

Different strokes...I had never in my life heard of the damp socks method before visiting SkatingForums. *shrug*

When I got my skates, I did wear them in the house with guards on. However, I was careful not to "walk" in them, and instead only do skating movements. I would stand in front of a full-length mirror and just bend in them, "stroke" in them, do chasses, extensions, mohawks...simple skating moves that can be done off-ice in skates very close to how they are done on-ice.

[crayonskater]

A couple cents to add onto stardust's excellent post:

Every sport involves drudge work. I used to fence competitively, and the people who do well are not the ones that just throw themselves out there, but the ones that practice the basic advance-retreat footwork ad nauseam. We used to practice defensive drills up against the wall; you had one retreat to defend yourself. We used to practice sword-tip control ad nauseam. Can you hit a postage stamp on the wall? Being a top athlete is really boring as hell.

My sister is training for a marathon. This takes lots of preparation and daily drudge runs. Even if you're talented, you'd be a fool to show up and just run 26 miles.

I have not been skating very long (about a year with a coach), and I don't have lots of tricks yet - waltz jump, toe loop, one-foot spin. But my coach's mindset is that the basics come first, and you know what? I should get a video of myself up here, but my basic stroking skills are way ahead of my jump level. (Motivating part of the reason for me to pursue dance.) A girl I skate with has mentioned that I have stronger edges than some of the girls she used to compete Novice against.

Doing fundamentals isn't a sign of weakness. It's a sign of discipline.

A young man at my rink is attempting triples. He throws himself into the air, muscles through it (no snap to his rotation), and falls about every time. His basic skating is awful; I've nearly got a faster scratch spin. And most of us think he's great, a fun guy, but we really wish he'd go back and perfect his doubles.

[sunshinepointe]

I wanted to add my insight into the mix because I have gone through what Kevin is going through...

I learned how to go forwards and backwards and do basic edges and 3 turns - but just enough to get by. THEN I started working on jumps and spins and I progressed all the way through the lutz and was starting on a camel and layback. But you know what? My basic skating stinks - see my videos for evidence. And because my basic skating stinks - I found I was hitting a wall when it came to all of my jumps and spins - out of control 3 turns, ugly crossovers into a waltz jump, poor entry into a spin etc. SO - I decided to start testing moves in the field so that I would force myself to work on the basics. And ever since I started working on the basics my other skating has improved - I mean, I'm far from anything good but I'm already far better than I was.

So the moral of the story is that no matter how talented you are your natural abilities will only take you so far. Moves are SO important to becoming a great skater, and I'm learning that it takes a LOT of time to "get it right".

On the spins though - definitely start working on them as soon as you can, at least a two foot. Spins took me a lot longer to "get" than jumps so starting on them earlier rather than later might be a good idea for you too.

[coskater64]

I would agree w/ what the others have said, the basics are key and while I am sure you are aware of it...you have to pass the field moves first. There is an expectation of a certain quality level for these moves, you need to be smooth and solid on your edges. Your salchow shows that you need work on your 3 turn and I recall that you once claimed to have landed an axel without any instruction at all.

While I understand you are still just beginning and are a former hockey player you might want to focus on posture, extension, being solid and secure in your edges. Since we are lucky enough to be in an olympic year you might really want to watch the ice dancers and see what edge quality is...you might really want to understand that the steps in between mean a lot, it's no longer about the jumps but about the balance of all those elements (jumps, spins, footwork, transitions, edge quality). You have said you would like to skate at the gold level in a few years, like 1 year which...would be very difficult...4 years maybe, hockey will not prepare you for moves, jumping or spinning.

Good luck with your endeavors....

[Kevin Callahan]

I do kind of feel like you're all ganging up on me. So if I sound testy, it is frustration from being misunderstood, not from disagreeing or being defensive.

Yet, I think said "ganging up" is unwarranted. Not because you're wrong, but because you're assuming that I think you're wrong. I don't. I think you're exactly right, and I've prefaced every reply with that. You're also assuming that I don't think of the basics as A) hard or B) necessary. I consider them both. Especially if I attempt them slow and steady. You would not be surprised, I am sure, at how quickly my basics disappear if I slow absolutely everything down. It is not something I am unaware of, and it is not something my coaches are unaware of either. I have been told by more than one coach that I am the only skater they have had to tell to slow down or to be less powerful.

What I'm trying to say here is that you're preaching to the choir, and it seems many of you are unaware of this. I know what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm just not doing it. I'm not doing it because I am in a hurry. In some ways, that's definitely hurting me, and I think you've all expounded on why that is. It is, however, not new information to me, with a few exceptions, and I'll address those specific comments. But in some ways, it is helping me. It helped get off my butt in the first place. It helps get me to practice at least two hours a day, if not more. It's what justified me spending an outright exorbant amount on skates. A philosophy like that cannot be wholly ignored.

And my goal, once again, is not necessarily to do anything specific. It may be that I am limited by my own attitude, and I'm sure plenty of people will decry it as a shame or a waste, but that concerns me only to a small degree. I'm not aiming for the olympics. I'm not necessarily even aiming to win. I am aiming to do my best, whatever that is, and I'll decide what my best is, not anyone else. I certainly have taken on paid advisors, and I appreciate every comment that everyone here makes, and furthermore, I want you all to know that I will take your advice seriously. And the only thing that offends me is that your comments seem to suggest I'm so immature as to NOT take what you say seriously. If I didn't want to know, I wouldn't ask. I do want to know, so I do ask.

Now things I feel I need to address specifically:

I predict you will get frustrated with the sport within the next couple of years and quit if you don't learn how to be patient. Yes, its fun to try new things but you can't brush over the old stuff sayings you've done a great job.

You have a fiery attitude which is good, but I think you'll be in for a rude awakening if you aren't careful.

Quite possibly, but only if I decide I've gotten as far as I wanted to get. As long as I feel successful. There's no time limit here, no specific goals. So, I'm somewhat skeptical of your prediction.

That rude akwakening may well be what I need, if so I welcome it. I need to fail spectaculalry to get better. More explanation of that in my next response.

Anyway....I applaud your fire & ambition, just hope you will approach it w/ a little humility & respect for the process, & will listen to those who have gone before, who are trying to help you see the best place to put your energies.

Asked and answered, as the legal phrase goes. The process is hard, and I have a great deal of respect for it. I'm not claiming I am somehow above the process and that I can simply bully my way through it and make it say uncle. That would be arrogant.

If anything, I think you can claim irrationallity more than arrogance. So it isn't humility I need to show. I freely admit, I'm the type of person to stick a fork in an electrical socket. I learn better when I fail for myself, even if that failure is immense. It's a hard, grueling, painful way to learn, but it's the only way I learn. Just be glad you can learn by being told what to avoid. That's not good enough for me. Trust me, no one will change that aspect of my personality. If parents, teachers, and coaches couldn't change it in other disciplines, what makes you think that anyone else can with regards to figure skating?

Doing fundamentals isn't a sign of weakness. It's a sign of discipline.

I wouldn't think otherwise. I never said so, and I don't believe I said anything that this could be infered from.

And finally just to reiterate my points here:

1. I am not claiming I am awesome, or better than the norm, or saying, as was suggested "look how far I've come." I am claiming I am happy with my rate of progress. That's all I'm saying. Nothing more. Just that I am happy with my rate of progress. I do not believe there is anything wrong with that.

2. I am listening to all of you, and your input is important to me. If I did not want your input, I would not be on the forums.

3. I am aware of the need to spend more time on my basics, and I respect them as the foundation of skating.

4. As long as I feel I am successful, no outside measurements need be used. This about me doing something I love because I love it, not for any specific goal.

5. I do things the hard way. It amounts to a lot of pain and a lot of frustration in my life, but it is the only way I learn. If I don't fail for myself, I will never truly believe it. Fork, meet socket.

[techskater]

You claim you want to be competitive at at least the adult gold level. The men who are best at the adult gold level have fantastic basics to go along with solid jumps and spins. Last weekend, at Midwestern Adult Sectionals, you would have seen the difference. The man who won the division has a sense of style to go along with BIG jumps. His jumps are big because he has great basics. His basics improved greatly when he decided to take up pairs and actually test pairs on the standard track because he had to go back and learn the standard track MIF (he had passed his Gold FS before the moves were implemented) and is currently working on his Intermediate MIF. The man who was 4th 2 footed his axel, but his stroking and basics were so smooth as compared to the 5th place finisher.

My own basics improved immensely when I decided it was time to learn the MIF (I am another skater who passed their adult Gold FS before the MIF requirement) and I recently tested and passed those darn Intermediate MIF. Although I had a rough skate at Mids for me (I fell on an automatic jump and proceeded to wonder how that happened through the rest of the program) my speed, posture and basics still got me some repectable marks from about 1/2 the judges which NEVER would have happened if I hadn't decided to work on MIF.

I spend the equivalent of 2 of my full sessions a week working on stroking and moves, something I have not done in seasons past, and I think it shows, even when I make mistakes in competitions. I would highly recommend structuring your practices via a notebook so you are FORCED to work on those basics when you go back and review. I know you are happy with your progress and are impatient and want to go quickly through stuff, but you REALLY will get stuck on things longer and get frustrated if you DON'T work on basics. You think you want to be ready to go to ANs in Chicago next year (even at the Bronze level). The programs that are best at that level are the ones chock full of good in betweens since everyone does the same jumps. That means edges, GOOD stroking, footwork, spirals, etc. If you were just going to doink around and not compete, we wouldn't all be all over this.

[Kevin Callahan]

<snip>

If you were just going to doink around and not compete, we wouldn't all be all over this.

Well said, and I agree. I swear, I'm not fighting y'all on this. Really.

Just a few clarifications, again. The goal I originally stated was simply to get to ANs in five years. This was before I realized that there were bronze, silver, and gold levels. So then I got more specific and said Gold Level. Regardless, I did not expect to be competing at ANs at all next year. That was all Tim's idea. Because I am an impatient sort (deceased equine, no need to strike it), certainly I was pretty happy with the news.

As it is, I will spend the next sessions until my next lesson with Tim doing only basics and not jumping at all. That'll probably be about a month or so.

[Casey]

If you rush through things now, they'll be with you forever. You can't plan on learning things "well enough" now and then going back in later to fix them so they're better. It doesn't work that way. What you don't understand is that this sport is based off of muscle memory. You said you don't mind doing a lot of poorly executed elements before doing good ones: you will understand the secret to this sport when you understand that if you do a ton of badly executed elements...you will NEVER do good ones. NEVER. The muscle memory needs to remember good ones to do good ones. If you do bad ones, they'll stay bad.
That made my eyes well right up when I read it, because it's something I've learned the hard way.

Kevin reminds me a lot of myself last year. When you're first learning, the new skills accumulate fast, and it's easy to believe you are making really great progress. So you eagerly rush on to jumps and "get them" as soon as you can, to try to keep the rate of progress high. They aren't very good, but you can always improve them later - they'll be easier once you get farther ahead anyways, right? Wrong.

My skating today is really disappointing, which is why I don't skate very much anymore. Maybe enough time with a good coach can fix all the things I'm unhappy about, but as Stardust said, it's counterproductive, and it will take longer than if I had just slowed down and taken my time focusing on improving basic elements all along. Right now more coach time is not something I can afford.

If you try to keep rushing, then in another few months you will lose the fire that's driving you now, and you don't want that... I hope you find a balance before then. :)

[batikat]

I've only just noticed this thread so if Kevin is indeed open to critique I will say what I saw on the jump video.

Ultra harsh critique follows but for a good reason - honest!

Salchow first - well sorry to be harsh but I would not have recognised that as a salchow if you hadn't told me. It was a UHT (unidentified hoppy thing) take off position poor, air position poor , landing position poor. Looks worse than the first one I ever tried!!!! I hope you are right that you do them better with your coach and if that is the case I'd say stop practising them like that and wait for your coach.

The only reason I did a reasonable imitation of a salchow the first time I ever tried one was because I spent 3 years doing dance before I even tried to jump, so my 3 turns were good and I understood the concept of checking before the jump and controlling the entry edge. The dance was because jumping terrified me and part of the problem was that a friend was learning to jump and came out of every lesson black and blue after falling all over the place. Now while I agree that if you aren't falling you aren't trying very hard, I can also say that I have fallen very few times learning to jump because I've got the basics right first and this makes it much easier to then improve the jump by pushing yourself faster into it because you know the actual jump technique is not going to let you down. Now I fall because I am increasing the speed beyond my comfort zone and lose the entry edge control. Dont' you want to be able to get quickly to a position where you can do a fast, controlled, identifiable jump?

I'm not suggesting you do 3 years of dance:!: 8O :lol: but I do think you need to work on that control of edges and turns and then the 'correct' jump will be easy. The problem with launching yourself into jumps any old how without proper technique, is that you can't progress to doubles and to putting them in a programme like that and they seem much harder than they really are.

You do need to do a controlled 3 turn and be able to check the 3 turn before bringing the leg around to jump. You also need to check the arms so you can use them to give you the rotation you need and to bend the skating knee to jump up. All things I'm sure your coach will have told you.

The toe-loop was also rushed and turned into a toe-waltz. View your jump in slow motion (use play, pause alternately) and just look at your position immediately before you take off - your entire body is sideways along with both feet which shows you have prerotated and are not taking off from the correct edge of the free foot and are turning the picking foot too. Can you do a RBO pivot? (i.e pick in with left foot behind and pivot the right foot around, heel leading RBO edge in an anticlockwise direction). That's more or less the position your feet should be in at the point of take off with body still facing forward, left arm forward, right arm back ready to bring round and through for the rotation.

OK - now for the point. You say you are happy with your progress. Why be happy with bad jumps? You obviously have enough talent and ability to do it right. It seems to me that by doing these jumps over and over badly you are simply putting yourself back each time. I think you said you have a long gap between lessons - that doesn't help but by practising wrong technique you are having to start over with each lesson which can only delay progress. You can't be happy with doing it wrong. And Stardust skies is absolutely right that it is much better to learn it right the first time than have to spend a lot of time and effort correcting bad technique that is ingrained in muscle memory. You can do better!! Wouldn't it be good to be in a hurry to do it right than to do something anyold how? Get it right now and you'll be quickly progressing to doubles. Get it wrong now and you'll be spending years unlearning things. Nothing wrong with impatience but you have to have the correct goal in mind.

If you must practice jumps now (and I understand that a month is a long time to wait for a lesson) why not get an instructional video like the ones the ISU produce and use that and videoing yourself to get a comparison and then you would be able to see for yourself where your jump technique needs to be improved. With that and practising the basics like you've said (good for you!!), should get you to your next lesson in a position to improve rapidly instead of fixing what's gone wrong in between lessons.

Good luck and I look forward to the video of your first double jump. Me, I doubt I'll ever do an axel let alone a double :cry:

[Kevin Callahan]

Ultra harsh critique follows but for a good reason - honest!

O.o that wasn't harsh at all. It was very polite.

OK - now for the point. You say you are happy with your progress. Why be happy with bad jumps? You obviously have enough talent and ability to do it right.

I said I was happy with my rate of progress. As in I am pleased at the speed I am moving. That is a far different thing than being happy with bad jumps.

and I understand that a month is a long time to wait for a lesson

Actually, that's with Tim specifically. I have a lesson with Barry next monday.

[batikat]

I said I was happy with my rate of progress. As in I am pleased at the speed I am moving. That is a far different thing than being happy with bad jumps.
.

Hmm OK but I was thinking that with your obvious comfort level on the ice you should be able to do the jumps better than you are now or alternatively that you haven't yet progressed to doing any correct jump.
I think what worries us (or me anyway) is that people often confuse being able to jump and land 'something',with being able to perform a figure skating element. We dont want you to be happy with something that isn't correct when you have the ability to correct it.

I count my progress in term of those elements I can do 'consistently, well and with correct form' (which is why I barely count my loop despite having landed it several times in my programme in competition),whilst appreciating they can always be improved.

This is why I believe people are cautioning you to take things more slowly and work on getting things right because it seems quick progress is important to you. While your progress seems quick to you right now in that you are 'landing jumps'; then if it takes you an awful long time to actually be able to use those jumps in competition or to progress to doubles because of incorrect technique then you might lose that enthusiasm. If you appreciate the real progress you are making (and not be fooled by equating a jump executed any-old-how as progress) then skating can be something that will keep you enthralled for a lifetime. And get you to AN's quicker in the long run.


Actually, that's with Tim specifically. I have a lesson with Barry next monday.


That's good since he will be able to work with you on the corrections.

Best of luck - your talent and enthusiasm should take you far.

[Skate@Delaware]

Do you have a plan when you practice, or do you just try to hit on everything?

I know this has been discussed elsewhere, but a basic warmup should be anywhere from 15-30 minutes, then you hit your plan.

Warmup:
Stroking-going around each direction, focusing of power, edge quality, extension, etc.
Crossovers-each direction, same focus as above (I tend to do twice as many on my worst side).
Edges-FI, FO, BI, BO again, edge quality, evenness of lobes, etc.
During all of these, posture should be 100%! i.e.-no looking down!

Then hit the basics:
3-turns-LFO, LFI, RFO, RFI
Mohawks-every kind you know
Then, while you are "fresh" maybe work on:
Jump landing position: from back crossovers or mohawks or 3-turns. Hold and glide for several seconds
Then you hit the jumps, starting with waltz, maybe the 1/2 jumps, then toe-loop, etc.

I don't work on any one item more than 15 minutes-I get bored or mad if it isn't working. If an item is stumping you and you can't execute correctly, make a note of it and hit it during your next lesson. My coach always asks me what I want to work on. Sometimes I tell her, sometimes I let her pick.

You should be spinning a 2-foot spin by now. I would ask your coach why you aren't. Once you have that, then technique kicks in for learning the one-foot spin (usually from a pivot, then progressing to another entry). You need to have good edges and 3-turns before that happens-maybe they aren't that great and that's why you haven't been taught?

You should also think about keeping a training log of some sort-write down what you work on each session, what stumps you, etc. Because of my limited time, I can only hit a little of each item-no time to hit it all. So, I alternate what I work on, also, I only work on each item no more than 15 minutes each. If it is working well, then I move on quicker. I don't keep working on an item if it ain't working right-I make a note and press on to the next item.

You said you get sloppy when your coach isn't watching-you should strive to skate well each time you hit the ice! Sloppiness is a bad habit to develop when ice skating. If you can do a move correctly under your coach's supervision, then you should do it correctly without! Every time you skate posture (and not looking down), positioning, control, etc. should be with you. Sloppiness in your moves leads to poor technique, which will lead to frustration and you wondering why you can't do a particular item away from your coach. Skating is hard enough as it is, proper technique makes it a bit easier (still work though).

I hope this is helpful to you Kevin.

[Kevin Callahan]

Do you have a plan when you practice, or do you just try to hit on everything?

<snip>

I hope this is helpful to you Kevin.

Nope, no plan. I pretty much try to follow the format of my lesson, but just generally, I try to practice everything I already know.

This looks to be very helpful, thank you.

[Hannahclear]

You can fight the ice. You can say that you are going to attack and do it no matter what it takes.

The ice won't yield and the ice won't change. The only thing that will change the results is improving technique. There is only one way.

[jazzpants]

My own basics improved immensely when I decided it was time to learn the MIF (I am another skater who passed their adult Gold FS before the MIF requirement) and I recently tested and passed those darn Intermediate MIF. Although I had a rough skate at Mids for me (I fell on an automatic jump and proceeded to wonder how that happened through the rest of the program) my speed, posture and basics still got me some repectable marks from about 1/2 the judges which NEVER would have happened if I hadn't decided to work on MIF.

I spend the equivalent of 2 of my full sessions a week working on stroking and moves, something I have not done in seasons past, and I think it shows, even when I make mistakes in competitions. I would highly recommend structuring your practices via a notebook so you are FORCED to work on those basics when you go back and review. I know you are happy with your progress and are impatient and want to go quickly through stuff, but you REALLY will get stuck on things longer and get frustrated if you DON'T work on basics. You think you want to be ready to go to ANs in Chicago next year (even at the Bronze level). The programs that are best at that level are the ones chock full of good in betweens since everyone does the same jumps. That means edges, GOOD stroking, footwork, spirals, etc. If you were just going to doink around and not compete, we wouldn't all be all over this.Yup, yup and yup!!!

I should also warn you about this too. I'm a Pre-Bronze FS skater and after about 6.5 years I STILL haven't passed Bronze Moves. All those that have seen me practicing at my rinks could tell 'ya that they see me working on my Bronze moves a lot!!! (Probably to the point where I'm working some amount of spins and rarely jumps.) But belive it nr not, makes spins and jumps a heck of a lot less effort. That's because you'll have a lot more confidence in your edges to stay on hose edges to make the jumps you need to do. Spin entries too! (I got one gal who's gonna crack up when she reads this and say "I told 'ya so!!!" about this! Alright! YOU WIN!!! :giveup: ) All of you that hated working on power 3's (* RAISE HAND HIGH*) -- forward power 3's are well worth working on to get good spin entries. If I didn't work on power 3's, my spin entries would be crappy and there would be no way of getting a nice forward spin... and therefore a good sit spin (and now my camel. :D )

Basics, in which MOVES (and everything else) is derived from, is NOT easy!!! Anything "worthwhile" never comes easy!!! And for all I know my probability of ever passing Bronze Moves is probably slim to none given some of the issues I've been having with my basics (Back crossovers in this case! It's better, but STILL a total MESS!!! I should film and post my back crossovers someday just to show you how bad they are. :evil: ) But the rest of the improvements on my skating overall is helping. (We'll see by how much when I do Sectionals in a couple of weeks, though. I did the impossible of winning one comp so far!) :lol:

And even if/when I do end up doing the impossilbe by passing Bronze moves, I still got a lot more work to do!!! (3turns and spirals, anyone???) But trust me, it's well worth it, especially when you're working on choreography! ;)

[Casey]

I should also warn you about this too. I'm a Pre-Bronze FS skater and after about 6.5 years I STILL haven't passed Bronze Moves. All those that have seen me practicing at my rinks could tell 'ya that they see me working on my Bronze moves a lot!!!
Well at least you're staying motivated and going after it. :)

[Skate@Delaware]

I don't feel so overwhelmed by my timetable now! My hubby asked me what my end goal was from all these lessons and skating (he was feeling a bit jealous) and I did say that eventually I wanted to be a "gold level skater" before I collected Social Security. I am 44 now.

So I've got 25 years to work on it. Of course, I haven't tested pre-bronze yet....of course, I could always switch to dance if I never get some of these jumps!