Power(less) pulls

[sue123]

Does anyone have any tips for power pulls, especially back ones? I've been working on them for the longest time now, and I can still only eke out maybe 2 or 3 in a row. Going foward, I'm getting the hang of. But backwards, forget it. Everyone tells me backwards is easier, but I just cant seem to get a handle on it.

I can hold the edges fine going in a circle, so I think the problem might be that I'm just not bending my knee. My coach also tells me I need to lead more with the hip of the free leg, but everytime I do, it throws me off balance. Any advice?

[phoenix]

Do slaloms on two feet, then switch to one, then back to two. I teach a rhythm of 3 of each, ie, three "swooshes" (or edges) on two feet, lift one foot, three swooshes on the one foot, then back to 2 feet. Knee action is *everything* in the exercise; without a definite down up down up at the right times, you can't keep it going. It's much easier to feel on 2 feet to start.

[TashaKat]

As ski instructors seem to tell you constantly "bend ze knees" and try and find a rhythm, doing them to music with a suitable beat can help :)

[SkatingOnClouds]

Okay, time to ask this question. I've tried to work it out from deduction, I've googled it, but I still can't work it out.

What is a "power pull" :?: :?: :?:


Karen

[EastonSkater]

Okay, time to ask this question. I've tried to work it out from deduction, I've googled it, but I still can't work it out.

What is a "power pull" :?: :?: :?:


Karen

Very good question there. There really does seem to be a lack of information out there on the internet that describes what power pulls are, and virtually no information at all about what you have to do basically to perform this exercise.

Its other name is 'change of edge pulls'.

It's when you stand on one foot, and you go in a straight line down the rink doing slaloms on that foot. They're basically 1 foot swizzles (except both edges are used instead of just inside edge). You keep changing edges so you're doing a continuous kind of S-shaped pattern in the ice in a straight line.

You'll see figure skaters doing these a lot at the rink...and you've probably seen it already, but just didn't know what it was called. They're on 1 foot and roughly in a kind of sitting position, and they just raise and lower themselves.....bending and unbending the knee, and they slalom on 1 foot down the rink. Half of the slalom cycle is done on say the inside edge, while the other half of the cycle is done on the outside edge - that's why they call it change of edge pulls. I think they call it a pull because I think the process works by making yourself travel around half a circle and you set up forces that pulls you around the half-circle.

The bending and unbending rhythmic motion puts energy into the slalom so that a person that's good at this exercise could just keep going indefinitely. It's not a jerky process either...when done properly it's nice and smooth. Although there's variations of it when some people use their free foot and body to do really extreme version of it to carve up the ice with extreme scratchy sounds.

Oh yeah...and the free leg that's not on the ice is usually placed somewhere in front and above the gliding skate (for power pulls in the forward direction)....and the free leg is usually bent at the knee where the free skate just dangles there. Some people actually use that free leg to help out a bit with weight transfer from one edge to another edge of the skate...like a pendulum, but that's not the proper way to do it. You're just supposed to use your hips to transfer weight. But nothing says that you can't do it any which way you want.

But anyhow... things that help with power pulls is work on balancing real good on 1 skate ... and getting that leg strong so that you can raise and lower yourself one 1 leg without getting tired real quick. And you have to be used to changing from inside edge and outside edge while being nicely balanced....using hips to transfer weight back and forth from one edge to the other....well maybe it's not just the hips...since the body is doing more things than just moving hips. So just start with 2 foot swizzles/slaloms then slowly build up confidence to nut it out on 1 foot. It's going to feel pretty ridiculous and unnatural at first...but wearing pads and protection etc helps a heap. You'll probably be doing a whole heap of 1 foot slaloms and then fizzling out to a stand still where you have to build up speed again using both skates. Keep your upper body relaxed and relatively still, and straight, and whenever you change edge on your gliding skate, point your free skate toward the centre of the semi-circle that your free skate is going to travel around. Well....not really strictly pointing toward the centre of that semi-circle in an extreme way...but just turn that toe of the free skate in towards that direction a bit...toward the centre of the semi-circle that your gliding skate is moving around for that particular cycle of the slalom. Timing and rhythm is very important with the knee bending and unbending and it'll just take time for the body to work itself out with that. Anyhow, I've been doing this naturally after having developed the feel for it, but wouldn't mind seeing a timing diagram from some of those figure skating websites to discuss the dynamics of that a bit. It really beats me why they don't have much information about that.....it's possible that they just develop the natural feeling too and just don't bother explaining it in writing. Anyway, the gliding leg is timed to unbend when the gliding skate is at extremity of each semi-circle.

But whatever is the case, perseverance, plus building up good sense of balance, and good strength in your gliding leg, and improving the ability to shift weight and change edges will get you there...eventually. And the skate coach will no doubt help to get you there more quickly.

[mikawendy]

One thing that really helped me on power pulls (mine are far from perfect but much better than they had been) is something I learned in a stroking class--when you bend and push, the push comes at the top of each lobe (meaning the curvy part of the tracing that sticks out--not the part that crosses perpendicular to the long axis as you are changing edges) and then you accelerate out of that push for the second half of each lobe. The idea is that usually in skating, one bends before a push--so if the push comes at the top of the lobe, you bend before that push.

I dunno if I'm explaining it clearly, but before I knew this, I kinda petered out after 2 or 3, but now I understand how to generate the energy needed it...

[russiet]

Recently I found that doing a lot of cross rolls (back & forward, inside & outside) have helped to smooth out my power pulls.

[Mrs Redboots]

Okay, time to ask this question. I've tried to work it out from deduction, I've googled it, but I still can't work it out.

What is a "power pull" :?: :?: :?:


KarenIn the UK, the term is also unknown, but not the move - they are one-footed slaloms, or one-footed changes-of-edge.

[phoenix]

If you're working on these for moves, it's also important to learn to keep your arm/upper body and free leg relatively still. They just want to see that knee doing all the work. Too much 'help' from a swinging free leg or arms will fail the move.

[Joan]

Okay, time to ask this question. I've tried to work it out from deduction, I've googled it, but I still can't work it out.

What is a "power pull" :?: :?: :?:


Karen

OK, if this link still works, you will see a power pull in action and find out why it is useful :lol:

http://skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=18533&highlight=coach+video

[renatele]

LOL! Glad that video serves the purpose other than causing fits of laughter.

[rf3ray]

Main tip is not to be leaning forward and try to sit on ya hip basically its the most common problem in any of the exercises, basically just be aware of your posture ....

[techskater]

Sit on the ball of your foot versus up on the toe pick and get down in the knee on the edge part, come up a little on the change, and back down in the knee on the next edge part kind of like doing the change of edge on a serpentine figure but keeping the free leg still

[sue123]

I have no problem doing 2 foot slaloms, for me, that's the easiest thing in skating. But picking up a foot, and whoosh. I fizzle and die. I'm going to print out these tips, and work on them tomorrow. My coach tells me it's one of those things that they test you on really early, but takes a long time to get the hang of. One of these days I'll get it.

[phoenix]

When you do it on 2 feet make sure your feet are right *together* and that they stay together. Make your knees touch throughout, never separating.

[dooobedooo]

Your free leg can help you.

It acts like a rudder on a boat, or like a mouse's tail ie. If it is extended firmly in the opposite direction to travel, it gives you stability, and because you have better stability, you have better speed and control.

You need to practise the correct use of the free leg on simple backwards outside edges, and then apply it to back power pulls (aka one foot slalom). There is quite a lot of technique in this, so get your coach to spend a lesson on backwards outside edges: correct v-push, correct free-leg extension, correct upper body position, rocking ankle over, correct "sit down"/kneebend into the skating edge, correct change of weight into next push.

When you are comfortable with extending your free leg in front with the toe turned out from the hip, try this with the back power pull, feeling your kneebend into each change of edge.

If you get a good free leg extension, it is likely that you will be able to keep your head up and upper body straight, which will help you to "progress" the movement (ie. give you more backwards momentum). It also helps if you can get the knack of holding your body strong, by pulling your tummy up and over and tucking your bottom under.

And like Eastonskater, I agree that waving the free leg around is really manky technique - just don't go there ..... 8O

[flippet]

If you're working on these for moves, it's also important to learn to keep your arm/upper body and free leg relatively still. They just want to see that knee doing all the work. Too much 'help' from a swinging free leg or arms will fail the move.


If you're testing it, absolutely. Control is key. But if you're just fooling around with them, and are just trying to get them moving, swing that free leg all you want! :lol: Once you have the general idea, you can work on controlling them later.

When I do the backwards ones, I like to exaggerate the swing of the free leg, and also exaggerate the turn of the shoulders a bit. It's just fun, and feels neat, but of course I'd never pass any tests with it!

[dbny]

Although there's variations of it when some people use their free foot and body to do really extreme version of it to carve up the ice with extreme scratchy sounds.

Oh yeah...and the free leg that's not on the ice is usually placed somewhere in front and above the gliding skate (for power pulls in the forward direction)....and the free leg is usually bent at the knee where the free skate just dangles there. Some people actually use that free leg to help out a bit with weight transfer from one edge to another edge of the skate...like a pendulum, but that's not the proper way to do it. You're just supposed to use your hips to transfer weight. But nothing says that you can't do it any which way you want.


On good pulls you can hear the rip of the blade against the ice. It is not the scratch of the toe pick. If you are not hearing the rip, then there is not much power either.

It is perfectly legitimate to use the free foot and even the upper body to help the pulls, and good pulls will pass Prejuvenile moves with both, as long as there is no toe pick and good edges and power.

The free leg should never be bent at the knee on F pulls. On F pulls, the free leg is in front and the toe should point out with the Inside edge, and inward with the Outside edge. Similarly, the hips are open on the Inside edge and closed on the Outside edge.

For B pulls, the free leg is extended behind with the same motion of the toe and hips. You can help yourself on the B pulls by actually using the free leg to pull your inside edge. In that case, you can bend the free knee as the leg goes in for the O edge and out for the I edge.

[techskater]

Don't forget to CONTINUE working on these since you'll see them again in Junior and Senior moves with the rockers and double threes.

[dooobedooo]

For B pulls, the free leg is extended behind with the same motion of the toe and hips. You can help yourself on the B pulls by actually using the free leg to pull your inside edge. In that case, you can bend the free knee as the leg goes in for the O edge and out for the I edge.

For backward power pulls, some people do hold the free foot behind and turn the knee out, and for me that is acceptable, but it is not acceptable to fake the power pulls by wiggling your free leg around. If you do the latter, you'll never get the technique of using the skating knee bend to achieve your push, and then rise for acceleration out of the pull (because you'll be "swimming" in a shallow fashion instead).

Either of the two stable free leg positions mean that you turn out the free hip, thus putting more weight onto the skating hip, and making you more centred over the skating hip and less likely to fall inwards.

[sue123]

Don't forget to CONTINUE working on these since you'll see them again in Junior and Senior moves with the rockers and double threes.

Jeez, I can't even imagine getting that high. I haven't even tested anything yet, and am not even sure if I want to. I'm still too young for adult, and my jumps aren't really jumps at all (yet), so there's no way I'd pass the pre-pre test, since they have jumping also. If only I could substitute spinning for jumping. But in the near future, I will not forget to work on them. :)

[techskater]

You can pass moves without taking the FS tests. There are many people who are Gold Medallists in moves who are at a much lower FS level, esp synchro skaters.

[dbny]

For backward power pulls, some people do hold the free foot behind and turn the knee out, and for me that is acceptable, but it is not acceptable to fake the power pulls by wiggling your free leg around. If you do the latter, you'll never get the technique of using the skating knee bend to achieve your push, and then rise for acceleration out of the pull (because you'll be "swimming" in a shallow fashion instead).

Either of the two stable free leg positions mean that you turn out the free hip, thus putting more weight onto the skating hip, and making you more centred over the skating hip and less likely to fall inwards.

I agree. It's acceptable to use the free leg, but that doesn't mean you can get away with poor or shallow edges. Any movement of the free leg should be rhythmic, in accord with skating knee bend...no wiggle allowed.

[I_wish_I_could]

Does anyone have any tips for power pulls, especially back ones? I've been working on them for the longest time now, and I can still only eke out maybe 2 or 3 in a row. Going foward, I'm getting the hang of. But backwards, forget it. Everyone tells me backwards is easier, but I just cant seem to get a handle on it.

I can hold the edges fine going in a circle, so I think the problem might be that I'm just not bending my knee. My coach also tells me I need to lead more with the hip of the free leg, but everytime I do, it throws me off balance. Any advice?
ok all of you that figer skaters you are all very luckie my flamly is very poor and cant affored to figer skate :cry: i know i love figer skating so if you wont to e-mail me my address is rosieboo@sbcglobal.net

[Anita18]

I can hold the edges fine going in a circle, so I think the problem might be that I'm just not bending my knee. My coach also tells me I need to lead more with the hip of the free leg, but everytime I do, it throws me off balance. Any advice?
I can hold edges fine going in a circle too, but I think I tend to lose balance when I'm switching edges.

Rink was so crowded today that I worked on power pulls and spins mostly. :giveup: I found that I can do forward ones on my left foot pretty well and backward ones on my right foot pretty well, LOL. Forward ones on my right foot are a bit tippy and I don't get anywhere on my left foot when going backwards. That side's also quite tippy. Sigh...

I think this means that I don't have as much control with my edges on my bad feet even if they're acceptable on a circle. I can hold an LBI edge, but not as comfortably as an RBI. I think doing power pulls just accentuates your edge weaknesses. :P

I have a question about arms. I swing my arms in order to get into the right body position for each edge, is this bad? I don't use my arms to force myself onto the edges, just to get into a body position where my torso isn't twisted.

I think it also helps to think of getting the deepest knee bend when you're at the top of each lobe in order to get more speed. It's like you're pushing off of the ice hardest at that point. It works pretty well on my good feet.

[SkatingOnClouds]

Ahh, now I understand. Just in time too, because I have been observing people doing these 1 foot slalom thingies and even had a try myself this morning, before realising I was lacking power in it.

The other day someone referred to them as 1 foot change of edges, which to me means a totally different thing from my figure days.

Now I know what they are and that I can't yet do them right, this thread will be really useful to me.

[SkatingOnClouds]

Actually, while I'm asking terminology questions, what are "cross rolls" :?:

For a while I thought they must be crossovers, but apparently not.

[jazzpants]

OK, if this link still works, you will see a power pull in action and find out why it is useful :lol:

http://skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=18533&highlight=coach+video

And along with that lesson, comes another lesson - learn how to stop on one foot (or at the very least, at least make sure you had a blade to do a T with...) :lol: (Renatele: I'm still LMAO and this is like the fourth time I've watched that video. WAAAAY too funny!!!)

[Casey]

Actually, while I'm asking terminology questions, what are "cross rolls" :?:

For a while I thought they must be crossovers, but apparently not.
I'm pretty sure they're a left outside edge to right outside edge and back, crossing over between.

[jenlyon60]

Yes. And you should be generating or at a minimum maintaining power as you execute them.

Note... there are also cross-steps, which have no power generation associated with them.

In Cross-rolls, you start on one outside edge (assume forward cross-rolls for this description). Then, cross over with the other skating foot, but the blade will be on an OUtside edge (so that instead of continuing on the SAME lobe as with a cross-over, you're on a new lobe). As you continue to push across with the new skating foot, you push under with the old skating foot, to generate power.

There is a bit of opposition twist between the upper body and the lower body as you do them, but you shouldn't be majorly twisting back and forth.

Cross-rolls are best done with good knee/ankle bend, also. Think about being down in your knees as you get ready to do the cross stroke, then as you skate onto that new crossed FO edge, keep bending some more in the knee and ankle.

[Mrs Redboots]

They are also done backwards, in which case the free foot is pulled behind the skating foot on to an outside edge. Again, good knee-bend is required, and a pretty good rise and fall in the knee, too. And you need to be able to point your heel at the opposite barrier - at least, if you think that, chances are, your heel will be in the right place. And you have to think "toes up" too, or you'll catch your toe-rake and go flying.

I love forwards cross-rolls, though, and can generate a lot of power (well, a lot by my standards, anyway) on them. My coach likes me to do "variable-speed" cross-rolls, where you start off holding each edge for about 4 beats, and by the time you get to the far end of the rink you are only holding each edge for 1 beat, and still accelerating. It's good fun, and good training for the quick cross-rolls in, say, the Paso Doble (although we have several lower dances with quick cross-rolls in them, too).

[doubletoe]

On power pulls, I find that I get the most power when I:

1) Focus on doing it all with my knees and ankles (keep the upper body still)

2) Consciously think, "Inside. Outside. Inside. Outside" so that I really get onto each edge completely and push hard against whatever edge I'm supposed to be on.

For forward power pulls, I keep my knees together and "steer" with my knees. For backward power pulls, I keep my free leg relaxed and bent, and not pressed against the skating leg. On backward power pulls, I "steer" with the heel of my skating foot. Inside. Outside. Inside. Outside. . . :)

[SkatingOnClouds]

Still not sure I get the cross rolls.
Are they something mainly in ice dancing, or do I need to understand them for freestyle?

[Thin-Ice]

Celliste--

If you're planning on doing any USFS Moves Testing you will need cross rolls. They are on the Juvenile and Adult Silver MITF tests. I've been working on them off-and-on for more than a year. I actually like the Forward Crossrolls, but the Backwards ones and I have been battling, since I don't seem to turn my heel far enough towards the barrier (great advice, Mrs. Redboots!) or I don't seem to bend my knees enough to get good power on the push... but these ARE getting better! Now, if I could just learn to love LBI 3-turns! :roll:

[jenlyon60]

Cross-rolls take time...

After many years, my coaches still see a need for improvement on mine. My right over left cross-roll is gorgeous, my left over right is less so, with minimal power. I can fake it going down the ice with long-lobe cross-rolls doing drills, but the lack of proper edge and control on the left-over-right shows up big time in the Paso.

[Mrs Redboots]

Still not sure I get the cross rolls.
Are they something mainly in ice dancing, or do I need to understand them for freestyle?Here in the UK, forward ones are in the lowest level Field Moves test, and back ones in the next level up. Not sure what happens to them when the new Moves tests come in next year, though.

[dbny]

There's a great exercise for improving edges on cross rolls (cross strokes). On a hockey line, do three in a row, crossing the line at a right angle each time. On the third, hold the edge until you have made a complete circle back to the line, whereupon you begin again in the other direction and make the next circle on the other foot. You can do this with both F and B, although I won't do the B unless there is someone to watch my back for me, or the rink is almost completely empty. The deeper your edges, the smaller the circle. I'm always challenged to get a real circle instead of having a big bulge on the returning side.

[doubletoe]

Still not sure I get the cross rolls.
Are they something mainly in ice dancing, or do I need to understand them for freestyle?

FORWARD CROSS ROLLS: You basically just do alternating Right-over-Left and Left-over-Right crossovers so that you end up going in a straight line and looking like you have to go to the bathroom. (You can't do these without changing edge from inside-to-outside on each crossover stroke, but you'll find that out when you try it.)

BACKWARD CROSS ROLLS: You can think of these as back cross-behinds, rather than cross-overs. If you're gliding backwards on the left foot, you will slide your right foot--heel first--behind the heel of the left foot and push off onto the right back outside edge. You ride the arc of that edge, then you bring the left foot--heel first--behind the heel of the right foot and push off onto it, onto a left back outside edge. Repeat down the length of the rink. . . if you dare. . . ;)

[Thin-Ice]

There's a great exercise for improving edges on cross rolls (cross strokes). On a hockey line, do three in a row, crossing the line at a right angle each time. On the third, hold the edge until you have made a complete circle back to the line, whereupon you begin again in the other direction and make the next circle on the other foot. You can do this with both F and B, although I won't do the B unless there is someone to watch my back for me, or the rink is almost completely empty. The deeper your edges, the smaller the circle. I'm always challenged to get a real circle instead of having a big bulge on the returning side.

We did these to music at Aspen's Adult Skate Camp a couple of years ago. It was interesting seeing the different sizes of circles everyone did... not too many of us were even-sized circles (even just forward or just backward) at the beginning of the week.. but everyone seemed to be getting more bilatral by the end of the week. It also created a very cool pattern on fresh ice!

[Mrs Redboots]

FORWARD CROSS ROLLS: You basically just do alternating Right-over-Left and Left-over-Right crossovers

I'm afraid that turns out not to be the case, since a crossover is on to an inside edge, and a cross-roll must be on to an outside edge. No edge-change - you must put your foot down on an outside edge. Plus you must bring it across in front of the skating foot, not put it down beside.

BACKWARD CROSS ROLLS: You can think of these as back cross-behinds, rather than cross-overs. If you're gliding backwards on the left foot, you will slide your right foot--heel first--behind the heel of the left foot and push off onto the right back outside edge. You ride the arc of that edge, then you bring the left foot--heel first--behind the heel of the right foot and push off onto it, onto a left back outside edge. Repeat down the length of the rink. . . if you dare. . . ;)Indeed, and forward ones are done the same way, only going forward, with the foot coming in front.

You can also do (my nemesis move, at the moment) back cross-cuts, or cross strokes, or whatever you call them, where you are going backwards on an outside edge and must put the free foot down on an outside edge in front of the skating foot, and repeat. These are the other move in the present level 3 Dance Moves, and the one that I am going to fail on if I fail! I find it all but impossible to put my foot down in front of me while keeping my weight back - they are coming, now, but they are unreliable and the edges aren't very secure. My coach says I put my feet down flat and rock on to an edge, which I think is probably accurate!

[Joan]

You can also do (my nemesis move, at the moment) back cross-cuts, or cross strokes, or whatever you call them, where you are going backwards on an outside edge and must put the free foot down on an outside edge in front of the skating foot, and repeat. These are the other move in the present level 3 Dance Moves, and the one that I am going to fail on if I fail! I find it all but impossible to put my foot down in front of me while keeping my weight back - they are coming, now, but they are unreliable and the edges aren't very secure. My coach says I put my feet down flat and rock on to an edge, which I think is probably accurate!

ooh, those sound fun :roll: . I don't think we have those in the USFSA moves in the field tests.

[Kelli]

They show up in the Junior rocker pattern, and sort of in the Junior choctaws. You never have to skate an entire length of them, unless your coach makes you because she thinks it's a good drill. :twisted:

[flippet]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joan
OK, if this link still works, you will see a power pull in action and find out why it is useful :lol:

http://skatingforums.com/showthread....ht=coach+video (http://skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=18533&highlight=coach+video)



And along with that lesson, comes another lesson - learn how to stop on one foot (or at the very least, at least make sure you had a blade to do a T with...) :lol: (Renatele: I'm still LMAO and this is like the fourth time I've watched that video. WAAAAY too funny!!!)

I was just watching America's Funniest Videos tonight, and they showed a string of skating mishaps, and this was the second video! They only showed the blade-breaking fall, though. Too bad....the attempted T-stop fall is the funny one! I mean....when you have your blade in your hand, you ought to remember that it's not on your foot! :lol:

[doubletoe]

I'm afraid that turns out not to be the case, since a crossover is on to an inside edge, and a cross-roll must be on to an outside edge. No edge-change - you must put your foot down on an outside edge. Plus you must bring it across in front of the skating foot, not put it down beside.

I was actually just trying to give a basic visual of what the move would look like, and not really get into the details of the edges. I have to admit I never noticed whether I put my foot down on an inside edge or an outside edge, but I got good marks on the move so I must have done them right in spite of myself, LOL. I'll have to do a few and see what edge I'm on. . .

[jazzpants]

I was just watching America's Funniest Videos tonight, and they showed a string of skating mishaps, and this was the second video! They only showed the blade-breaking fall, though. Too bad....the attempted T-stop fall is the funny one! I mean....when you have your blade in your hand, you ought to remember that it's not on your foot! :lol:I just saw it too, since you brought it up!!! :lol:

I could see Renata watching American's Funniest Video and thinking "Hey! That's my coach! And it's D*** FUNNY!!! Tee hee hee!!! :twisted: "

[renatele]

I was just watching America's Funniest Videos tonight, and they showed a string of skating mishaps, and this was the second video! They only showed the blade-breaking fall, though. Too bad....the attempted T-stop fall is the funny one! I mean....when you have your blade in your hand, you ought to remember that it's not on your foot! :lol:

Oh they did finally show it! I asked Jonathon in summer if he considered sending it to AFV, and he said he did send it to them, but they were not interested.

Too bad I missed seeing it in TV, though...

(edited: actually, scratch that, IIRC he said it just didn't seem to be funny enough to AFV, and didn't get anywhere near being close to the top ones. True, non-skaters will not find it as funny as we do)