Lesson Etiquette

[Scarlett]

Hello All. I have a question about lessons during public session. I was on a deserted public session one morning. There was a tot in lesson, an adult about my age and level in lesson, and me. The lessons were in the far corners and I was on the blue line practicing my edges. Anyway, it just seemed that the coach and the adult student were going out of their way to make me move and practice something different. When I was working on backspins on my blue hockey line, the coach decided that she needed to work on crossovers which took over all the ice from hockey line to hockey line. I moved to the other end (opposite the tot) and starting working on jumps. I have been jumping for about 10 minutes when they decided to work on jumps not in the center of the rink but near the end where I was. I moved yet again and I swear they followed me. Should I have kept where I was or followed the etiquette and yielded to a coach/skater in lesson? Now don't get me wrong, I get my lessons during a public session and don't have a problem with lessons on public ice in general but I was just thinking that this was ridiculous.

Just wanted to know what you guys thought and if this happens at your rink.

[Michigansk8er]

This has definitely happened to me. One time there were 2 of us on the ice, one in lesson and me. I was at the far end working on spins. The coach actually had her skater move from the opposite end and work on crossovers around the circle I was in. What was wrong with the center circle, or other 3 end circles, I'll never know. This went on the entire session. No matter where I went, they followed. We were on an Olympic surface, and on a freestyle session. I think it's ridiculous and frustrating.................but some coaches obviously can't help themselves. They get on the ice and ego/intimidation take over. Unfortunately, I'm not sure there is much you can do about it. Just keep moving and be glad your rink allows lessons on public sessions.

[EastonSkater]

If you believe that they're really trying to mess with you, you should just continue to do what you're doing. And if they say something, then you should say something in return. Politely at first of course. But if they try to tell you off....then the next best thing is to give a warning that you'll report it all to the rink supervisor, or upper level management.

[dbny]

I think it's pretty common on both public and freestyle sessions. Some coaches just can't believe that they are not the end all and be all. I don't believe that most of them do it on purpose, they have simply chosen to be insensitive to the needs of anyone other than their own students, and it becomes habit. I would never say anything, having had a very bad experience with a coach (the bad experience was also with the club) who was actively interfering in my daughter's lessons (with a different coach) on club ice. Ice time is too hard to find to risk it by getting involved with a nutter.

[EastonSkater]

Ice time is too hard to find to risk it by getting involved with a nutter.

That's why if the problem persists, it's necessary to take action against that nutter, or else the wasted ice time will keep accumulating as they interfere with your ice time.

[dbny]

That's why if the problem persists, it's necessary to take action against that nutter, or else the wasted ice time will keep accumulating as they interfere with your ice time.

Or, depending on politics, you could be made to feel very uncomfortable. In my case I had no alternative, since the nut job was openly hostile towards my daughter, and had a Svengali type following in the club. We would have left anyway. I'm just saying, be very, very careful.

[Debbie S]

Or, depending on politics, you could be made to feel very uncomfortable. In my case I had no alternative, since the nut job was openly hostile towards my daughter, and had a Svengali type following in the club. We would have left anyway. I'm just saying, be very, very careful.I agree that if you're in a rink that seems hostile, go to another one. Scarlett, it doesn't sound like what happened to you was that bad - the coach may have just been kind of clueless - but I would say generally that if someone is at a rink where the situation is not good for any reason (nutty coach, weird policies, too crowded, bad schedule, whatever), the best thing to do is skate somewhere else. Skating is expensive, and you shouldn't spend your money at a rink with a negative atmosphere.

[EastonSkater]

Or, depending on politics, you could be made to feel very uncomfortable. In my case I had no alternative, since the nut job was openly hostile towards my daughter, and had a Svengali type following in the club. We would have left anyway. I'm just saying, be very, very careful.

If the club doesn't do anything about it, then that'd be my fourth move. My second move would be to just stand my ground on the ice if they kept deliberately trying to mess with you. The third move would be full on argument and confrontation. The last move would then to go to a different rink. I don't take nonsense from people when I don't deserve it. That is, I don't take kindly to bullying tactics.

[EastonSkater]

I agree that if you're in a rink that seems hostile, go to another one.

That's a good suggestion.....and that's only if the whole rink is hostile. But if a particular coach keeps doing this every time you're there, then it's time to give them something to think about. On a full size rink, and there's only like you and them on the ice, there's absolutely no reason for them to keep following you around wherever you go on the ice. The coach is just trying to mess with you. And they'll probably do it to anybody that looks timid or weak. If they did it to me....big mistake.

[batikat]

It is just possible that it was not deliberately to make you move but that the coach was following what they had planned for the lesson, eg first we'll work on whatever, then we'll do crossovers (and between the hockey lines is an obvious place for practising getting them powerful in a circle as it gives the skater something to aim for) and then we'll do jumps the other side - maybe for a change of scene or because that's where the skater likes to do jumps or where they are in the skaters program if they have one. (I always tend to practice jumps on one side of the rink given the choice - I dont know why and I dont consciously choose it - I just seem to head that direction if the coach says jump!). Plus it may have been something as simple as where they were standing when they decided to change to jumps and it was obvious to set off anticlockwise to whichever end was anticlockwise from them. Also if there was a tot the other end from you, they were very sensibly avoiding the tot who is likely to be much less predictable than an adult skater and to whom they could do a lot of damage if they collided.

It's not like there wasn't plenty of space for you to move to and sometimes it does you a favour by making you practice things in different places on the rink.

Also it does seem that the fewer people on a rink the more likelihood there is of them gravitating towards each other - it's like a magnetic attraction. I've been on a rink with two of us and at some point we invariably end up heading for the same spot on the ice. Possibly because with few people you dont have to concentrate so much on avoiding people so you are less aware of the others there.

Besides he was hardly following you around that much if you were able to be in one spot for 10 whole minutes - many lessons are only 15 mins long in total and of course whether it's 15 mins or 30 mins the coach and students will be working on various things within that time and I would expect them to move around the rink.

Don't get paranoid - use it to your advantage. Work on something til the coach moves and then move onto something else.

Unless it is obvious they are being deliberately intimidating (and this doesnt' sound like they are) then you should follow etiquette and move for them and then you can rightly expect the same courtesy when you are in a lesson following your coaches plan and picking your favourite spot to jump etc.

[Thin-Ice]

I agree they were sensible to avoid the tot. If you really think it was not a coincidence or planned lesson pattern and they were following you, it couldn't hurt for you to approach and say something along the lines of "Since there are so few of us out here on the ice today, I was hoping to stay out of your way. Is there someplace I can work on my (spins/jumps, edges/moves/fill in the blank) where I won't be in your way and I won't have to look out for you and you won't have to look out for me?".

[sk8pics]

This has happened to me as well, but I would chalk it up to general cluelessness and inconsideration of others. When there are 4 people on the ice and you are doing crossovers around one of the hockey circles, and a coach takes a relative beginner student over to the circle you are on and starts their student in the opposite direction to the direction you are skating... :roll: that's just dumb and inconsiderate. For myself, my response depends on the other circumstances and at what stage I am in my own practice. Sometimes I move, sometimes I keep skating. Sometimes it seems like a particular person is just trying to be obnoxious and in that case, there's not all that much you can do. I complain to my coach, he is sympathetic and will block for me, but in a practice... there's not much recourse if someone is deliberately getting in your way and you want to avoid a confrontation.

[Skate@Delaware]

Reminds me of my summer rink-there is a coach who taught on public ice and would commandeer the center circle-basically overtaking anyone who wanted to spin there 8O (she was working mostly with hockey boys). Pat, you might know of her? After a few sessions of this (and she would move in with no announcement to us that she was coaching), she moved to the center with her student I said to her, "Oh, you are teaching now?" and she introduced herself and said yes, would we mind moving for a while? After that, we were ok with it.

I think it was different than your situation, though. It may also be Murphy's Law-no matter where you are in the rink, that's where everyone moves to! I notice it during my lessons-we stake out a quiet corner, next thing we know everyone seems to be down that way. I'm a bit bolder and say, "Excuse me, I'm in a lesson down here" or on public session that's not crowded say "Excuse me, I'm working on this circle here, would you mind working on one of the others, please?" Usually works for me....My last resort is to report the coach to the skating director. I don't confront-I report, usually with the safety issue take on the whole thing. (I've only had to report once and it worked, and I remained anonymous but if you are afraid of repercussions you could call the rink after you leave and complain).

[Mrs Redboots]

I find myself inclined to agree with Batikat on this one - it may simply have been the lesson plan.

And I'm afraid I do have to say that there is at least one skater at my rink who always practices in exactly the same place, which wouldn't at all matter except that she is invariably right where we want to work on our step sequence! The times she skates, the elite dancers aren't on the ice, which is perhaps a pity, as she would soon learn that she can't spend her entire practice just there.

[Skate@Delaware]

We were at our adult session yesterday (yay-it's back on!!!) and one of the skaters said she can only do this one jump at the one spot in the rink-no where else! She cannot. I can't remember what it was (axel, maybe) but she can only jump it in the one section. I thought that was sad.

I remember at the edge workshop at Aston last year when Don Jackson said it would be nice if more people did their lutz in the center ice (people use to do them all over the rink instead of the center). I know people do them in the corner for safety's sake.

[EastonSkater]

Should I have kept where I was

I forgot to say ... yep, you should have kept where you were. Why? It's because it was a public session. If it was an coaching session, and if you were priveleged to skate around during the coaching session, then that's a different matter. But since it was a public session, you should have held your ground. And if the coach had said something to you in that public session to move....then all you need to say is 'nope....this is a public session....and I've noticed that you keep following me around and trying to dominate the whole rink....so I recommend that you stop doing that'.

[sunshinepointe]

^ I'll disagree with you on that. I take my lessons during public sessions and although I don't follow people around to make them move, if I'm working on something and I need the space then I feel I'm within my right. I move for other people during their lessons, they should move for me on mine. It's also an issue of respect - it's not THAT hard to move to another part of the rink and I'm sure the coach wasn't doing it to be a pain. If you start taking an aggressive attitude towards coaches at your rink it won't get you very far. Be assertive yes - no one should feel harassed but I don't think that the coach was doing this to harass the original poster. But to be aggressive and basically tell the coach to bleep themselves? Uh uh, NO way.

[aussieskater]

I'm with sunshinepointe on this one. Getting arrogant and/or aggressive with other skaters and their coaches is counter-productive. Coaches do have right of way, whether it's in a freeskate or public session (at least down here), and Dbny is sadly correct in saying that ice time is just too hard to find.

Thin-Ice's suggestion of just asking where the coach is going to be is sensible, because it doesn't allow the situation to get out of hand. Even if the coach was going to harass/torment you to get the upper hand (and how many coaches are there that set out to do this, really??), asking where the coach is going to be stops that behaviour at the pass, because the coach has to make and tell you their decision, and you can work around it. It also provides an opportunity to introduce yourself to the coach and the other skater if you don't know them. This is good, because in general a person will try to be more considerate to someone they know as opposed to someone they don't.

[kayskate]

Something like this happened to me once. I was doing 3turns on a hockey line. A coach put his student on the same line when other lines were available. I chalked it up to generally cluelessness. Since other lines were available, I just moved. It was not a coach I saw regularly anyway. Some ppl just walk around oblivious to the world.

Kay

[EastonSkater]

^ I'll disagree with you on that. I take my lessons during public sessions and although I don't follow people around to make them move, if I'm working on something and I need the space then I feel I'm within my right. I move for other people during their lessons, they should move for me on mine. It's also an issue of respect - it's not THAT hard to move to another part of the rink and I'm sure the coach wasn't doing it to be a pain. If you start taking an aggressive attitude towards coaches at your rink it won't get you very far. Be assertive yes - no one should feel harassed but I don't think that the coach was doing this to harass the original poster. But to be aggressive and basically tell the coach to bleep themselves? Uh uh, NO way.

The situation was said to be a bare rink with only you and that other pair hanging around on the rink. Nobody mentioned anything about being aggressive and telling the coach to do whatever right away. You only stand your ground when that coach is the first to tell you to - as you described it - to bleep off.

I don't recall anyone saying that you need to be aggressive. You should actually be defensive. The circumstances are not your fault if you're on a full size rink during a public....yep...public session, and you're trying to be nice and avoid them all the time, but they come following you around. Now, we're not talking about telling anybody to clear off just for the beginning. You only do that if you're doing your thing, and then that coach tells you to clear off, and that's after you've figured out and determined for certain what that coach had been doing. So it's not about being the aggressor. It is about putting the aggressor back into their place. And the way you find out is to hold your ground....and remember once again, the situation is a full size rink with only you and them on it.

So it's good to not assume that the other coach was harrassing or not harrassing. The situation is that the original poster was getting sufficient information to believe that the coaching may have been following. So in that case, after you believe it to be the case, then you should just stand your ground and see what's really up with the situation.....and remembering that you're on bare ice with just you and that pair on the whole rink.

No aggression needed at all. You just stand your ground under that particular circumstance and only act if they act first. I'm assuming the original poster knew what they were talking about in terms of suspecting something fishy was going on. So I give benefit of the doubt, instead of saying something like 'nahhh.....I reckon that you're clueless and I'm on the coaches side'.

[Scarlett]

Thank you for all your responses. I think that next time I run into this coach,which probably will not be soon since that is not my primary rink, I will give her benefit of the doubt and ask where they plan to be and just stay away from that area. I was just shocked by it though. I'm used to adult skaters being so friendly and supportive.

[Bothcoasts]

It may also be Murphy's Law-no matter where you are in the rink, that's where everyone moves to!

Two of my friends love to tell the following story: "We were the ONLY two people on the ice, and we still managed to run into each other!" :frus:

[Mrs Redboots]

Two of my friends love to tell the following story: "We were the ONLY two people on the ice, and we still managed to run into each other!" :frus:Oh, that is one of the Laws of Skating - the fewer people on the ice, the more likely you are to collide with one another! Ask anybody at your rink if they haven't found that to be true. I know I have!

Even this morning, the ice was pretty quiet when we got on (it got busier later), and we had a coming-together with one of the coaches. We knew where she was, and skated to avoid her - only she chose just that instant and second to move towards the music player, and crossed our path! Luckily, all of us stayed on our feet.

[EastonSkater]

Collisions only occur because people are not being careful enough on the ice. When you have 1 skater that thinks that they can skate around backwards or forwards or in a direction that opposes the general flow of traffic - and they do it as if there's absolutely nobody else out there on the ice (that is, being reckless or careless), then that's an accident waiting to happen. If you have 2 of the same types, then that could be even worse.

The problem is just due to carelessness - which means things like lack of communication, lack of planning, lack of attention to what's happening around you before you do something, etc.

I saw a potentially serious accident once.... and I had anticipated it would happen. One particular girl figure skater was skating backwards at speed, preparing for a jump, but was travelling against the general direction of skating in the public session.....while some skater with rental boots on came charging out from the side door and accelerated in a straight line ... somewhat in the general direction of traffic flow...but was really cutting across the end of the rink. The guy was being somewhat of an idiot because he was simply focused on looking straight ahead and powering his way in that direction without bothering to look what's happening around him. So here we have a girl skater skating real fast backwards, and a guy skater skating real fast forwards....both converging toward each other. They collided very hard and both were sprawled on the ground. Luckily they were both ok in the end, but that could have been potentially very serious indeed. This was last year sometime.

Even when top level skaters practise on the ice, you see people colliding with each other. Again, that's just lack of planning.... carelessness. I mean, if people skate around fast doing things like backward moves while other people are also skating fast focusing on their own tricks and routines, what else can we expect? It's an accident waiting to happen.

[dbny]

Collisions only occur because people are not being careful enough on the ice.

It must be wonderful knowing everything the way you do.

[doubletoe]

It is just possible that it was not deliberately to make you move but that the coach was following what they had planned for the lesson, eg first we'll work on whatever, then we'll do crossovers (and between the hockey lines is an obvious place for practising getting them powerful in a circle as it gives the skater something to aim for) and then we'll do jumps the other side - maybe for a change of scene or because that's where the skater likes to do jumps or where they are in the skaters program if they have one.

Unless it is obvious they are being deliberately intimidating (and this doesnt' sound like they are) then you should follow etiquette and move for them and then you can rightly expect the same courtesy when you are in a lesson.

I totally agree. I would not jump to the conclusion that it was on purpose, since I know I always practice every element on the part of the ice where it happens in my program and I assume other people practice different elements on different parts of the ice for a reason as well. For me, a coach's behavior needs to be a little more obvious before I will decide it's on purpose.
For instance, this morning I had a perfect example. On our freestyle session, a coach who is known to be a bit of a wack job just stood there teaching his student, even though my music was playing and I called out, "Program!" to warn them I was headed their direction. Zero effort to move out of the way. I did not have time to stop, and I actually had to skate through the 2-3 foot gap between him and his student to get into my flying camel, which was supposed to be happening right where they continued to stand. So I predictably messed up on my flying camel right in front of them, but they still didn't move or even acknowledge my presence. I wasn't even able to get into my back crossovers to skate out of it and get on with my program because they were still standing right in the way! There were maybe 5 of us on the whole ice surface and it's not like they couldn't have moved 5 feet for 5 seconds, especially since my music was playing and that gave me right-of-way.

Hey, waitaminnit, did this just turn into my own private b*tch session? LOL! Sorry about that. But my point was, watch this coach for a few more sessions before deciding it's on purpose. This was not the first time this jerk did not move for me and others have had various problems with him, too, so I KNOW he's a wack job. :frus:

[mikawendy]

Two of my friends love to tell the following story: "We were the ONLY two people on the ice, and we still managed to run into each other!" :frus:

I once saw that happen in a warmup on a test session...

[EastonSkater]

Yep....and if everybody exercises care and caution, then it's possible to eliminate collisions entirely. And regarding that comment about 'knowing everything that I do'. Bad try, since I won't fall for that kind of bait tactic.

[stardust skies]

I disagree that if you use enough caution, accidents will never happen. If that were the case, they wouldn't be called accidents!! Using caution will reduce the risk of accidents, but accidents happen. I've had very, very, very few accidents in my skating career, but I have had a ton of near-misses, and I'm very careful. Sometimes you just cannot tell where other people are going, especially if everybody is going backwards, very fast, and there are other people everywhere and very little places to redirect your trajectory to.

Either way, I think that a person in a lesson has right of way over a person not in a lesson, always. This means that even if you are the only person on the ice OTHER than the skater in a lesson, then, even if you cannot see a logic reason for it- you should move. It is not like they are going to disturb you to wherever you move to for a while, and if by the time they move on, you have to move again, then do it. Really, who cares? I mean how much can it possibly disturb you to just step aside a few feet? If it does, then maybe you should work on your concentration...and I'm not being sarcastic. You should be able to redirect your attention to your skating immediately when someone interferes, and if you are not, then you are not focusing enough. Needing to move, even several times, shouldn't be such an interruption to your training.

Also, I know that with my coaches, they want me to do specific things in specific places. You say something to the effect of: "and then they went to practice jumps not in the center, but in my corner" but...it's not really your corner. It's whoever needs it's corner, and it's as unfair for you to hog it as it is for the person in a lesson to hog it, but they might have direction from their coach to hog it, giving them right of way. You can't just STAY in a corner constantly anyways, at best, you would alternate: she'd jump first, then you would go while she was getting corrections, and so forth. If you're doing something other than jumps in the corner, it's really not where you should be anyways, so you should move, as corners are meant for jumps. I know that I only do certain jumps in certain corners. I do lutzes in only ONE corner out of four...ever. I do not go to the other lutz corner. So if someone else is in that corner while I'm on a lesson, they might think "she could just use the other lutz corner.." but really, I can't, that's where my lutz goes in every program I do, and that's where it'll stay. As to why she didn't do the jumps in the center...I don't know anyone who makes their students jump in the center. That's really bad. Nobody jumps in the center. The center should be where you are setting up, not jumping.

I can understand how you felt harrassed, there have been times on freestyles when I was trying to work on step patterns or spins and it seemed like one particular coach (who I despise for her tendency to do this..) was just following me all around the rink making me move every ten seconds...but...it's her right. Students in lessons have right of way over people not in lessons, unless those people have program music playing. That's just the way it is, and when you are in a lesson, I bet you're thankful you don't have to worry about people getting too much in your way. I know I'm thankful for it.

[dbny]

Yep....and if everybody exercises care and caution, then it's possible to eliminate collisions entirely. And regarding that comment about 'knowing everything that I do'. Bad try, since I won't fall for that kind of bait tactic.

I wasn't baiting you. I was commenting on your know-it-all attitude, which is expressed very well in the above statement about eliminating collisions entirely.

[sk8pics]

Students in lessons have right of way over people not in lessons, unless those people have program music playing. That's just the way it is, and when you are in a lesson, I bet you're thankful you don't have to worry about people getting too much in your way. I know I'm thankful for it.

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote, but unfortunately some people STILL don't move for me when I'm in a lesson. My coach at times actually physically will have to move someone out of the way. Not everyone, but those times are very frustrating. Too many coaches do not teach their students any etiquette, and sometimes, frankly, the kids get the idea that everyone should move for them since their coaches basically have taught them that.

[dbny]

Too many coaches do not teach their students any etiquette, and sometimes, frankly, the kids get the idea that everyone should move for them since their coaches basically have taught them that.

ITA. I've noticed that Russian coaches are often the worst offenders. I've even spoken to a few myself, with mixed results. One coach finally started looking out for other skaters, and another coach told me that he could tell his student to look, but she still would not. That was after there was a near miss.

[Isk8NYC]

I've only had one session like this that was indeed being done intentionally. (I mentioned it to a friend, who didn't believe me until I gave him the things to watch for. He later apologized for not believing me.) Suffice it to say that the rink owner noticed after I left the ice and asked for a pre-paid freestyle session refund. I knew what button to push, didn't I? The situation was resolved within minutes, although the troublemaker's big mouth later bought him a suspension from the rink. Most of the time however, well...it was my own fault. :oops: I was tired, bored, frustrated, or (I hate to say it) PMS'ing. (No copout there: it was true.)

In your case, Scarlett, there is a possibility that the student taking the lesson had test or competition program choreography that placed the crossovers line-to-line and the jumps at the end. They may have chosen the end away from the Tot for safety. (Lutz jumps are usually practiced at the ends.) It would have been nice for the Coach to say something to you, that's what I usually do if I need a particular spot. "Just a few minutes, is it okay? Oh, thank you so very much." They didn't know you, so they didn't care about the niceties.

I think you chose your spots well: edges on the line, spins near the center, jumps at the end. Next time, try the friendliness approach in advance. Say "Good Morning" all bright and chipper (not my usual AM persona) and try taking the far end first. See what happens. If they try to bump you, ask them if they need that place right now. If you don't want a confrontation, just say "It's okay, I'm done." Leave a few gouges and holes, and move away.:twisted: I'M KIDDING!!! LOL!

Hang in there - empty ice is hard to find. After reading the other responses, I'll add that you DO need to move around a bit to open up the ice for others. The exception to this rule is on patch ice! ;) Make a practice plan that puts you in different places for different things, and be ready to move on when you're done. If you're able to do freestyle on a public session price, don't sweat the little things - plan around them.

[EastonSkater]

I wasn't baiting you. I was commenting on your know-it-all attitude, which is expressed very well in the above statement about eliminating collisions entirely.

Well, let me make another comment. I was absolutely right about what I had said. I guess that you go around making things up about people having 'know it all attitudes' whenever those people make accurate comments. If not, then please don't go around making statements about people 'knowing it all'.

[EastonSkater]

I disagree that if you use enough caution, accidents will never happen. If that were the case, they wouldn't be called accidents!!

I mentioned care and caution. If everybody used both care and caution, then collisions could be entirely eliminated. You mentioned 'accidents'. Yes, accidents do happen, such as when somebody catches an edge on their blade, or performed a move incorrectly. But as for collisions, they only happen when people do not cooperate with each other. They realise there's people around them, and they realise they're skating fast, or skating blind sometimes when going backwards, but simply ignore the fact that they could collide with somebody by doing that. That's skating with not enough care or caution.

Common sense tells you that if there's not too many people on the rink, then coordinate things properly so that everybody can do their things without any chance of colliding. Coordinate skating paths, or take turns at doing things.

The problem is everyone thinks 'ahh well.... I'm not the only one using the rink, so there's not much I can do about it except just take my chances and risk it...so I'll just do my usual runs, and everybody else can do their usual runs at the same time'. Well....that's where the problem has its foot stuck in the door already.

In a public session, you have people being silly, or being inconsiderate...whether they're newbie skaters or experienced skaters. There are always those that are skating across the line of skaters, or in direction opposite to general traffic flow, skating at high speed and things like that. That's what I call lack of care and caution, and is also the reason for collisions.

[dbny]

Yes, accidents do happen, such as when somebody catches an edge on their blade, or performed a move incorrectly. But as for collisions, they only happen when people do not cooperate with each other.

Except when someone catches an edge or falls on a jump and goes sliding into someone else, as almost happened to me last week while teaching. No matter how careful and cautious people are, there will always be accidents and some of them will be collisions. That's my opinion. I'm not stating it as fact. We already know that you disagree, and that others agree. Both opinions, not fact. It's when you state something as truth, that you cannot possibly prove, that I think you come off as a know-it-all.

Additionally, I will say that there will rarely be a time and place when absolutely everyone on the ice is exercising perfect care and caution. That's just human nature. I would like to know if you think you have always exercised proper care and caution? Even those of us who try, do fail sometimes.

[EastonSkater]

Except when someone catches an edge or falls on a jump and goes sliding into someone else, as almost happened to me last week while teaching. No matter how careful and cautious people are, there will always be accidents and some of them will be collisions. That's my opinion. I'm not stating it as fact. We already know that you disagree, and that others agree. Both opinions, not fact. It's when you state something as truth, that you cannot possibly prove, that I think you come off as a know-it-all.

Additionally, I will say that there will rarely be a time and place when absolutely everyone on the ice is exercising perfect care and caution. That's just human nature. I would like to know if you think you have always exercised proper care and caution? Even those of us who try, do fail sometimes.

You said....'except when someone catches an edge or falls on a jump and goes sliding into someone'. Catching an edge and falling on a jump and THEN sliding into somebody is really lack of care and caution because you're planning a move in a spot that can potentially take somebody out if you mess up. You know that if you mess up, then there's the potential for not only hurting yourself, but hurting somebody else as well. Right?

So care and caution is necessary ... which means to plan and execute moves while cooperating with everybody else. And if you're a good skater, then you also must realise that there are people out there that can be silly, inconsiderate, or make mistakes.

And yes, I have always exercised proper care and caution on the rink. I never do anything that could cause myself to take somebody out or hurt somebody.....and it works 100 percent. The problem is when other people are inconsiderate or ignorant, and they dash out like lightning from the rink-entrance without even bothering to look around (as if they're the only person on the ice), or skating across everybody's path, or going in the opposite direction of traffic flow etc.

You also said..."Additionally, I will say that there will rarely be a time and place when absolutely everyone on the ice is exercising perfect care and caution."

If everybody did exercise proper care and caution, then there would be no collisions....because everything would be properly coordinated and scheduled. Each person does their move in a clean run.... so even spills cannot take somebody else out.

[dbny]

I think you are living in a dream world. Everything cannot be "properly coordinated and scheduled" with fifteen to twenty people of all ages on the ice at the same time unless you gave each skater just a few minutes of the ice time all to themselves. I don't think anyone is going to pay for freestyle ice that way.

BTW, when someone does a jump that lands eight feet away from me, I do not feel threatened by it. I do not consider the jumper to careless or lacking caution. The fact that a fall and slide could result is simply a fact of skating and slippery ice. You cannot keep your eyes on everyone every minute. I was busy with my student when the jumper fell, but I heard it and was able to just barely get out of the way by only a few inches.

Since you think you are perfect, I doubt that we will ever agree, and it's getting pretty boring debating what I think is just common sense.

[EastonSkater]

dbny .... it's clear that you're the kind that likes to throw in sly little remarks about people if you don't agree with what they say. Bad habit that.

[flippet]

because you're planning a move in a spot that can potentially take somebody out if you mess up.

That would be the entire ice on a busy freestyle session.

Things happen, even when people take precautions and are being careful. Being holier-than-thou about it apparently works for you, however, so keep on doing what you're doing.

:roll:

[mikawendy]

Except when someone catches an edge or falls on a jump and goes sliding into someone else, as almost happened to me last week while teaching. No matter how careful and cautious people are, there will always be accidents and some of them will be collisions. That's my opinion. I'm not stating it as fact.

ITA with your opinion, dbny. Just yesterday, I saw a girl working on the back power circles from intermediate moves. She's a very powerful skater but always looks where she's going and is courteous on the ice. From where I was standing, it looked like she accidentally caught an edge in a rut in the ice (which she didn't see because she was looking over her back shoulder for traffic, not down at the ice). Down she went, and because she was skating at a high speed, she slid across the ice at a great speed. When she was skating she hadn't been anywhere close to colliding with anyone, but once she was down on the ice, the speed of the slide took her right over toward where a coach and student were, with their back to her. Her slide stopped just short of colliding with them. So she had been careful during the move, but the rut in the ice was something she couldn't have avoided.

[jazzpants]

You said....'except when someone catches an edge or falls on a jump and goes sliding into someone'. Catching an edge and falling on a jump and THEN sliding into somebody is really lack of care and caution because you're planning a move in a spot that can potentially take somebody out if you mess up. You know that if you mess up, then there's the potential for not only hurting yourself, but hurting somebody else as well. Right?This may be true in theory, but in practice, this is NEVER the case!!!

I've had a case of "bowling for skaters" where I would end up catching an edge during a lesson (coach wants me going FAST... well fast for me anyway... :P ) I caught an edge and I ended up sliding half way across the rink and right into a skater who was standing still talking to someone and was NOT aware that I was right behind him, b/c at the time of the fall/slide, I wasn't behind him! It wasn't one of my pleasant moments, b/c he end up toppling on top of me!!! OWWW!!!!! 8O 8O 8O (Thus my primary coach's comment "Going bowling for skaters, jazzpants???") :roll: :twisted: :lol:

Point is, you can't expect everyone to use "care and caution" every single moment. We're only human! It's just NOT possible!!! As they say in the movie Forrest Gump, "**it happens!!!"

As for the rink etiquette thing, there is an "unwritten" rule that coaches and students HAVE the right of way to non-lesson skaters, whether or not it's a public or freestyle session. Given that, Thin-Ice, I think, came up with the best solution, which was to work it out with the coach in question. There is a good chance that this coach is simply clueless about what she's doing. (Or at least in my book, I try not to automatically assume that someone who doesn't know me and I don't know them has any malicious intent.) In most case, being diplomatic usually comes out for the best.

EastonSkater, standing your ground and not moving will only bring on a lot more grief than it's worth! At worst, you may be labelled as a difficult skater by the coach and be reported to the rink mgmt. And if other things happen between you and other skaters, you may possibly be marked for getting yourself kicked out of the rink. Do you REALLY want that to happen?

On a lighter note:
My coach at times actually physically will have to move someone out of the way.I had a coach that did that at least once. And yup, the person he had to move is ME!!! :twisted: :lol: I accidentally backed into his area where he's giving a lesson. The coach immediately blocked me from moving further back and into his student. When I turned around and came face to face with that coach. He gave me this smile that says "Hi, jazzpants! How are you? Probably not so well now b/c I GOTCHA and you're in BIG trouble, young lady!!!" :twisted: (I thought "Oh, SH**!!!" 8O )

Of course, off ice, he and I are friendly! Wonderful guy!!! :D

If you don't want a confrontation, just say "It's okay, I'm done." Leave a few gouges and holes, and move away.:twisted: I'M KIDDING!!! LOL!
(*Roaring laughter*) Too funny!!! :lol:

[stardust skies]

I mentioned care and caution. If everybody used both care and caution, then collisions could be entirely eliminated. You mentioned 'accidents'. Yes, accidents do happen, such as when somebody catches an edge on their blade, or performed a move incorrectly. But as for collisions, they only happen when people do not cooperate with each other.


I agree that collisions and accidents are different...but collisions can at times be accidental. Performing a move incorrectly is not the only way to crash into someone. You can be aware of your surroundings, considerate, and respectful of others, and STILL have an error in judgement (or memory) as to where someone is going, and go the wrong way and completely get in their way- and if this takes the other person by surprise, even if they try to avoid you, they might not. I don't know about public sessions- I don't believe in skating a high enough level of freestyle on them for this to ever be an issue, (because it's dangerous for everyone unless it's almost empty) but on freestyles, for the *most* part, people do try to be courteous and look out for each other, but just because they do does not mean that it always works out. The way you are presenting your argument, it sounds (and obviously I could be wrong) like you are saying that a majority of crashes between people on the ice are voluntary which I think is very much less often the case than you might convey in your argument. I think that a lot of times, people just have poor judgement, not poor intentions. Ice is slippery and everything goes very fast. As I've said, I've never had any serious collisions/accidents/whatever, but I see how they could happen to anyone, even people who are very knowleadgeable, considerate, and aware of their surroundings.

You said....'except when someone catches an edge or falls on a jump and goes sliding into someone'. Catching an edge and falling on a jump and THEN sliding into somebody is really lack of care and caution because you're planning a move in a spot that can potentially take somebody out if you mess up.

Well now that's just stupid, I am sorry. People move constantly on freestyles, so *every* spot is a spot that could potentially take someone out. The only way not to set up a move in a spot that could potentially take someone out is to just not do it at all. Every other time, it's a gamble, you can never predict where other people will go.

I'm not sure if you skate freestyle (it doesn't sound like it) or if maybe you are fortunate enough to skate only on private ice (but even if that were the case surely there would've been a time you'd have had to deal with crowded freestyles), but...just because someone wasn't in your way of travel when you were setting up something, doesn't mean they aren't there two seconds later. It is the responsibility of every skater to watch where he/she is and is going, but...you also have to work on your skating. This means that you cannot stop before you launch into every element and survey the entire parameter of the rink carefully to see exactly where 20 different people are going- chances are they're all going the same place anyways, and it wasn't the place you had anticipated. If you look out ahead of you and see nothing, if you quickly look to the sides and see no one coming, then you go into your jump/spin/move and you no longer can monitor where others are going- by this point it is THEIR responsibility not to get in your way as they see you are doing a move and cannot monitor where they are positioning themselves around you- it is also up to THEM to give you enough falling/sliding room. So if you fall on a jump and slide out, that is not within your control, you can't take responsibility for what is so clearly a *mistake* or accident, in and of itself. It's not like you fall on purpose, or can predict WHERE or how you'll fall. If you could, then you probably wouldn't fall at all. You can fall forward, backward, sideways, go left, right, straight ahead, WHO KNOWS? The skater in the middle of the air who is coming down and about to hurt themselves surely doesn't! It's not your responsibility to factor in your fall if there was no one around when you set up.

I know that if another skater and I are on the same half of the ice, and we're setting jumps up at similar times, I ALWAYS give the skater going ahead of me plenty of room to fall- by that point she can't see that I'm about to set up a jump after her anyways. Maybe if you are doing single jumps it is easier to do as you say and still pay attention to others and even predict where you will land (or fall), but when you start to get to doubles and triples and requiring more speed/producing more height and distance during the jump (and also being less consistent and taking nastier falls), it's just virtually impossible (and I am not assuming you're on singles, I don't have any idea about your level..) to try to do all of this looking out WHILE you're jumping. Basically in your scenario, NO ONE would EVER do any practice because they'd constantly be yielding to each other and no one would ever just go.

Actually, that's the thing that pisses me off the most- when another skater and I set up a jump in the same spot at the same time, and I abort it to give them the space, and then they don't jump either even after they saw that I was giving it to them. It's a lot like traffic in the big cities- if everyone always yields, nobody's ever gonna get anywhere. You gotta know when to give and when to take.

If everybody did exercise proper care and caution, then there would be no collisions

And if there were no violence in the world, less people would die. If there were less greed, more people would eat and own homes. If people were nicer to one another, there would be less suicides. If we didn't drive cars, there'd be less pollution.

You cannot, ever, have 100 percent of anything when you're talking about human beings. I think it is impossible NOT to be lying when you say that you 100 percent of the time use completely care and caution, it's humanly impossible. Unless you are a robot, you're lying. Maybe your aim is 100. Maybe you're 99.7 percent of the time as careful as you can be. But as careful as you can be is not 100 percent, and you can never be it 100 percent of the time, because you are human, and therefore are imperfect and bound to make mistakes. I really honestly wonder how many jumps a session you must manage to fit in with your idealism. My guess is...not nearly as many as everyone else, and not nearly as many as you deserve for the price you paid. It's great that you are trying to be perfect, and more power to you on that quest, but it'll never happen and even if it did, nobody else would be so really, you're just screwing yourself over and not really fixing anything for others either. Nobody on any ice surface in the history of time will use completely care and caution at 100 percent for the entire time of the session. If they did, they wouldn't be on the ice to begin with, because ice is slippery, and being on it is NOT using complete care and caution. Just because you have skates to go on it with mean it's safe. Just like just because an SUV has 4-wheel drive, doesn't mean you should drive in snow with it because no matter how you slice it, driving on snow is dangerous, no matter how careful you are, how good you are, or how good your car is. You do not control the ice (or snow) at 100 percent, and never will, so short of not going on it, I guess you'll have to deal with its imperfections, as well as everybody else's, and maybe even your own. :)

Sorry about the length, but man does this topic get me going! And I'm trying to make up for all the posts I haven't made lately. Haha. ;)

[stardust skies]

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote, but unfortunately some people STILL don't move for me when I'm in a lesson. My coach at times actually physically will have to move someone out of the way. Not everyone, but those times are very frustrating. Too many coaches do not teach their students any etiquette, and sometimes, frankly, the kids get the idea that everyone should move for them since their coaches basically have taught them that.

I fully agree that not enough coaches teach their students good ettiquette. The reason for this is usually that they, also, have terrible ettiquette. Some coaches at the rinks I've trained at have the WORST ettiquette in the history of figure skating, it's pathetic. It's very tempting to give it right back to them, but I think what I was trying to convey with my first post in this topic is that...even if people are dying to do it, responding to bad etiquette by ignoring their good manners and sinking to the level of those with bad etiquette really won't do anything but make *themselves* feel worse, and it isn't worth it.

Sometimes when a coach (or skater) cuts me off repeatedly on purpose, I want nothing more than to do it back to them and hopefully mess them up in the process the way they messed me up. But I don't, cause I'm the better person. And I think mostly everyone on this board are good people that way. Letting bad people make you less good than you are is giving them way too much power. :)

That said, I HAVE pretended that I was about to run over a girl that kept interrupting my jump set up while I was in a lesson (and she was not), and she got so scared that she has never been in my way since. So really, the moral here is to pick your battles. :halo:

[EastonSkater]

Well.....let's just say that the 'collision' I was originally talking about is the type when two people are skating in typical fashion, and either 1 or the other, or both are not watching what's happening around them.

Forget about the catching an edge and tripping and sliding stuff. The slide and trip is not the body-to-body impact type that I was talking about when I first mentioned it.

And once again, please note that the topic is about a 'public rec skate session' with nobody else except you and the coach + student on the ice. If the coach has some tendency to follow you around, then you've got every right to question them aloud, especially if you have enough information to believe that they're doing it deliberately....and especially if they don't say anything at all, but just consistently impose.

I'd have liked to see a coach try that at the rinks I regularly skated at in public rec sessions. My rink supervisor and rink manager friends would have had a word with that coach....no doubt about it. Why? It's because I'm aware of what rights everybody has in a public rec skate session...at a friendly rink. Not a rink with snobby coaches and snobby rink administrators. The good rinks are ones where lessons take place either in the middle of the rink or in semi-barricaded zones (with witches hat boundaries) at one end of the rink. And the rinks I skated at......the staff don't treat public skaters as second rate people...as if they're nothing. So maybe the rinks that you skate at are different or something.

[EastonSkater]

responding to bad etiquette by ignoring their good manners and sinking to the level of those with bad etiquette really won't do anything but make *themselves* feel worse, and it isn't worth it.

But nobody said anything about sinking to the level of those with bad ettiquette. Sinking to their level would be to go follow them around and invading their space. But nobody suggested to do that. If you're just doing your own thing on such a big rink with 'nobody' else but you and that coach on it....in a public rec skate session, then it is appropriate for that coach to say something polite and explain what's the situation if they keep coming after you no matter where you go. Some people here appear to think that a recreational skater would get into bad books of the rink if a rogue coach keeps forcing the rec skater to clear off, without any explanations or words said. That's complete nonsense....unless the rink you skate at is run by people that are snobby or up themselves.

[Bothcoasts]

My coach at times actually physically will have to move someone out of the way. Not everyone, but those times are very frustrating. Too many coaches do not teach their students any etiquette, and sometimes, frankly, the kids get the idea that everyone should move for them since their coaches basically have taught them that.

I've run into this problem as a coach, when other coaches refuse to move their students out of the way for your student to skate to music, even both sets of students are doing the same program for a specified testing session. Even so, I still teach my students to be courteous and to share the ice.


On a different note...

I agree that collisions and accidents are different...but collisions can at times be accidental. Performing a move incorrectly is not the only way to crash into someone.

I agree, Stardust. Would like to add that the intent matters a lot. How often is it that someone intentionally crashes into another skater? Most collisions, or however you would define them, are accidental.

Last week, I was on the ice with a total of five others--another coach and four students for a FS3 class. The coach and I were watching students' different elements and offering advice, but generally staying at one place next to the boards near center ice. As we were talking, the next thing I remember was being flat on the ice. One of our littler students--no more than nine--crashed full-speed into me from behind. Given the low numbers of people on the ice and the reality that I had been remaining in one location, there was no question that this student should have done a better job of watching for me. I clearly let him know that he needs to do a better job of watching out when skating. From my perspective, it was a good teaching opportunity, although I would much rather have preferred to teach him to without a fall involved!

That being said, there's an element in past postings suggesting that the notion of collision clearly defines one--or both--parties as being at fault and that the negligence was intentional. Perhaps this wasn't the true meaning of the writer, but it's how the posts came across.

I don't think that labeling a collision as such does much to acknowledge that any skater is continually understanding and processing a myriad of changing factors when on the ice. Accidents happen due to a variety of reasons, including a lack of caution and/or awareness. Simple unawareness doesn't necessarily, however, chalk up to negligence. For example, my father likes to refer to the little kids darting around on public sessions as "squirrel babies." For him, squirrel babies are the little ones who are blissfully unaware of where their bodies are in relation to others around them--too often, these kids resemble the squirrels you watch darting in front of cars of the road. These kids simply have not acquired the skills needed to be aware enough to predict where others are going, something you pick up with added experience on the ice.

To generally label one skater in a collision at fault doesn't do much to acknowledge that the collision could, in fact, be accidental with no ill intent--if it were caused by a squirrel baby, for example. By assuming that all collisions occur because other skaters should be more careful, we automatically assume that others skate without the best of intentions. I watch out when I'm on the ice--or when I'm driving my car--because I intend to protect myself and those around me. Doing so doesn't mean, however, that a squirrel baby won't jump out in front of me and force me to alter my plans. It just means that I'll be as careful as I can.

When I skate, I try to avoid reading into the intentions of others as being overly negative or hostile, because the reality is that I don't usually know their intentions. I much prefer to think of us as working together for the common good of sharing the ice together, and that it's our shared obligation to ensure our mutual protection during that time. Assuming that the other skaters aren't out to cause harm or intentional negligence is a much more enjoyable way to skate!

[dbny]

And once again, please note that the topic is about a 'public rec skate session' with nobody else except you and the coach + student on the ice. If the coach has some tendency to follow you around, then you've got every right to question them aloud, especially if you have enough information to believe that they're doing it deliberately....and especially if they don't say anything at all, but just consistently impose.


An easy way to find out if it is deliberate and at the same time put a stop to it if it is not, is to crack a joke about it. A simple "We must stop meeting like this", or "fancy meeting you here" with a big grin, can let the coach know that he/she is imposing without being hostile or confrontational. The coach's response can tell you if the imposition was purposeful.

[Skate@Delaware]

There are times during my lessons when my coach will "block" for me when I skate backwards-because sometimes the session is a bit busy and that makes me nervous. So, she watches out also and hollers if someone comes too close (usually we do this if I'm working on back edges).

Sometimes, we hear someone's music and wonder who is skating...my rink does not announce who the skater is or have them wear a vest or anything. We have several skaters moving to the music and we are left clueless.

And, when I skate and see a little one skating backwards without looking, I figure I'm an adult and they should listen to me---I let them know that they should look where they are going (mostly I'm nice about it). They are pretty surprised thinking that they could knock into someone.

We do have one girl who has "attitude" and doesn't look, skates all over, and refuses to move when your music is playing. I let her overhear me once that I was going to start knocking over kids 8O who got in my way when I was doing my program....she moved after that. I'm twice her size :twisted: . I wouldn't really do it, but she didn't know that.