Lutz? Partial Lutz? What jump is this?

[Kevin Callahan]

So I was trying to practice a lutz today, but I'm not sure what I actually produced. I have the entry (backwards glide on one foot) down, and I was able to dig the toe pick in and launch. The resulting revolution and landing felt exactly like the landing of a waltz jump. Now seems to me, logically, that if I started backwards and ended up backwards (backwards glide to backwards glide) that I completed a revolution. What did I do? Is it too much to hope for that I actually successfully completed a lutz without Tim present?

[sunshinepointe]

Maybe - we weren't there so we didn't see :)

Sounds like a lutz though - provided your "backwards glide" was an outside edge prior to the jump. Otherwise it was a flip.

edit: it also depends on what foot you took off on and picked with :)

[Kevin Callahan]

Backwards Glide on the right foot, toe picked with the left, rotation, landing on the right foot and continuing the backwards glide. I assume this clarifies?

[flippet]

The resulting revolution and landing felt exactly like the landing of a waltz jump.

I forget how far you've gotten in lessons, so forgive me if I'm lowballing it, here. The stuff above makes me wonder if you didn't do a toe loop. Or, more accurately, a toe-waltz jump. A toe loop is not technically a 100% full revolution, it's more like 3/4. And it's really easy to pre-rotate too much on the pick and take off going basically forwards, which makes you hop into essentially a waltz jump.

If you haven't had much jumping experience at all, this would be my guess.

Although, if you are more experienced, it's possible to have done a full lutz without really 'trying'. You'll never do it again, though--it's the law of skating. :P Try it with a coach present, and it will run to the other side of the globe, decide it likes it over there, and never return. :lol:

I used to get the occasional 'flip', fully rotated, before truly getting coaching on it. My trick, however, is that they were really more of a 'toe salchow'. I'd pick in, then pull through and launch like a salchow--and you could see it on the tracing. The hook of the launch edge curved around behind the pick mark. My coach said she'd never seen anything like it. 8O

So, if you did manage a lutz, I'm sure your coach will find all sorts of things to pick on. :)

[mikawendy]

Which way did you rotate? Did you turn counterclockwise in the air or clockwise in the air?

A CCW toe loop is RBO entry, pick with left toe, land on RBO edge, NO counterrotation in the body (the rotation of the jump continues in the same direction as the entry edge--in this case the RBO edge takes the skater counterclockwise around the circle, as does the rotation).

A clockwise lutz is RBO entry, pick with left toe, land on LBO edge (note the change of foot). The entry is RBO (taking skater counterclockwise around the circle), but the rotation of the jump is clockwise. This is a counterrotated jump because the rotation of the jump is opposite to the takeoff.

Since you took off and landed on RBO, and since it felt a bit like a waltz jump, it sounds like you may have done a toe loop?

[flippet]

Backwards Glide on the right foot, toe picked with the left, rotation, landing on the right foot and continuing the backwards glide. I assume this clarifies?


Yup. Toe-waltz. :)

Sorry.

[Kevin Callahan]

Yup. Toe-waltz. :)

Sorry.

That answers that. So how am I supposed to land to make it an actual toe-loop? And if I manage to go clockwise (I'll have to get out on the ice and put around as I consider the physics of that), then will I produce a lutz?

[sunshinepointe]

I used to get the occasional 'flip', fully rotated, before truly getting coaching on it. My trick, however, is that they were really more of a 'toe salchow'. I'd pick in, then pull through and launch like a salchow--and you could see it on the tracing. The hook of the launch edge curved around behind the pick mark. My coach said she'd never seen anything like it. 8O



Oddly enough but I used to do the EXACT same thing, and I was convinced it was a flip until I got a coach who sadly informed me it was just a toe salchow...a strange jump lol. Unfortunately since I had practiced it that way for like, a month, it was almost impossible to learn the real flip later on without wanting to take off like a salchow.

Anywho, Kevin - your enthusiasm is awesome, but it does seem like you did a toe loop. Still a nice achievement - remember though when learning jumps learn them under the supervision of your coach - otherwise you'll end up like me and flippet doing toe salchows, which sadly don't exist 8O

[Kevin Callahan]

Anywho, Kevin - your enthusiasm is awesome, but it does seem like you did a toe loop. Still a nice achievement - remember though when learning jumps learn them under the supervision of your coach - otherwise you'll end up like me and flippet doing toe salchows, which sadly don't exist.

Well, a toe loop is better than no jump at all! And knowing the mechanics will help me succeed in other jumps.

As for coach supervision, not always an option. Right now, Tim is in Frisco (my permanent residence), and I am in Austin. Although I have lessons scheduled during breaks and holidays, and have been handed over to a temporary coach (who has not called back since his son gave me his number), I have developed a determined self-reliance. And it has served me well so far. I learned crossovers, 3-turns, mohawks, and my waltz jump prior to hiring Tim. At our initial lessons he proclaimed me to be without bad habits, which is usually what happens when people are self-taught. I got all those under my belt by a four part system: observe, analyze, repeat, suceed. I am positive my enthusiasm is to blame.

[flippet]

That answers that. So how am I supposed to land to make it an actual toe-loop? And if I manage to go clockwise (I'll have to get out on the ice and put around as I consider the physics of that), then will I produce a lutz?

Your landing is fine--enough, anyway. It's the take-off that needs work. You'll need to pick in going backwards, and take off ALSO going backwards. Your coach can work with you on exactly what you need to do in your case.

And no, you don't rotate the opposite way to get a lutz. To get a lutz, you glide on the left foot (outside edge, specifically), pick with the right, and land on the right. (CCW skater, which I see you are.) If you were do do what you did, but rotate the opposite way, you'd have a toe walley. (I think...right, y'all??)

[mikawendy]

That answers that. So how am I supposed to land to make it an actual toe-loop? And if I manage to go clockwise (I'll have to get out on the ice and put around as I consider the physics of that), then will I produce a lutz?

The ccw toe loop and the cw lutz have different upper body positions going into the jump. For the ccw toe loop, the left arm/shoulder are strongly checked in front of the body (to prevent the upper torso from getting ahead of the hips in terms of rotation). For the cw lutz, the right arm/shoulder are strongly checked in front of the body (counter to the rotation that the jump will have). The posture is also different--the lutz entry is usually on a fairly straight knee until it bends just before the jump. (Here, I'm only speaking from the experience of praticing the 1/2 lutz, as I'm not yet doing a full lutz.)

See doubletoe's post (http://www.skatingforums.com/showpost.php?p=251417&postcount=4) in this thread (http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=19168) for an interesting and helpful description of the upper body position before the lutz jump.

Most people pick one direction in which to jump and spin at first (so as not to confuse themselves), though many skaters can do some elements in the opposite direction from their usual rotation (e.g., Kwan's cw camel stepping out into ccw camel--and Jeff Buttle also did this a few seasons back). I've seen some skaters who jump one way and spin the other, but the ones I know have told me it messes them up. And at Nats recently, as another poster in a different forum on these boards pointed out, Rohene Ward did a jump combo (or perhaps it was a sequence) in which one jump rotated CCW and the other rotated CW. That's quite rare. (But I couldn't resist name dropping Rohene's name as he has more than a few fans on this board! ;) )

[mikawendy]

Your landing is fine--enough, anyway. It's the take-off that needs work. You'll need to pick in going backwards, and take off ALSO going backwards. Your coach can work with you on exactly what you need to do in your case.

And no, you don't rotate the opposite way to get a lutz. To get a lutz, you glide on the left foot (outside edge, specifically), pick with the right, and land on the right. (CCW skater, which I see you are.) If you were do do what you did, but rotate the opposite way, you'd have a toe walley. (I think...right, y'all??)

I think CCW toe walley is RBI entrance edge, pick with L toe, land RBO exit edge. It is a counterrotated jump because the entrance edge is traveling (ish) in a clockwise direction, whereas the rotation is counterclockwise. And a toe walley has a true RBI entrance edge, not an RBO that becomes an RBI because the skater is toe-waltzing. Toe walleys and toe loops are counted as equivalent jumps in terms of judging, I believe.

(And toe walleys are much easier for most people to do than walleys with no toe assist.)

[flippet]

I think CCW toe walley is RBI entrance edge, pick with L toe, land RBO exit edge. It is a counterrotated jump because the entrance edge is traveling (ish) in a clockwise direction, whereas the rotation is counterclockwise. And a toe walley has a true RBI entrance edge, not an RBO that becomes an RBI because the skater is toe-waltzing. Toe walleys and toe loops are counted as equivalent jumps in terms of judging, I believe.

(And toe walleys are much easier for most people to do than walleys with no toe assist.)

I think you're right. I've never managed to do a walley of any sort, but they sure sound fun. :)

[Kevin Callahan]

I think you're right. I've never managed to do a walley of any sort, but they sure sound fun. :)

Okay, now you two have officially confused me. However, I do believe I understand the physics of both jumps now.

A toe loop I think I'll be able to manage myself. I think I'll wait on Tim or Barry (the temp coach) before I go trying a lutz again.

[Joan]

Can you do a back pivot with your left toepick behind and your right outside edge making the circle? This is how the toe-loop is supposed to feel just before you leave the ice. In other words, you pick behind your gliding foot and your gliding foot should remain on an outside edge just before take-off (this is where the similarity to a true loop jump comes in). It is hard to do this correctly.

[sunshinepointe]

Okay, now you two have officially confused me. However, I do believe I understand the physics of both jumps now.

A toe loop I think I'll be able to manage myself. I think I'll wait on Tim or Barry (the temp coach) before I go trying a lutz again.

The lutz for a lot of people is tricky - and for me at least the lutz seemed almost impossible to do correctly until the flip was learned. Don't worry about rushing through to get to the lutz...I made that mistake and now I'm going back to the very, very basics on everything to "fine tune"...I could do a lutz, but it wasn't the best so now I'm building a solid foundation in the other easier singles first (especially since I'm doing that whole testing thing 8O). Like, my flip and loop are okay, but I want them better...and for me, working on the lutz without having a nice flip is kind of...pointless.

Then again everyone is different :)

[coskater64]

Make sure you do not prerotate the toe loop -- in other words your shoulders must not rotate forward before you pick in, otherwise it is a toe waltz and is the same as a waltz jump.

A lutz is on a LBO edge, right foot picks, up one revolution and down on the RBO edge. The edge must stay on the outside-- generally, because the lutz, flip and loop are all pivot jumps it is best to first learn the loop and learn the pivot motion contained with that jump, then you proceed to the flip and the lutz.

A toe walley is done off the inside edge rather than the outside but is the same as a toe loop in difficulty/technicality. A walley is a different story and is rather scary to learn, it takes off on a deep RBI edge and lands on the RBO edge. You have to rock to the toe, bend, jump and land RBO. It is like an opposite loop, a walley currently counts as a jump in the 6.0 system but is considered a transition in the NJS.

Helpful? maybe. :lol:

[doubletoe]

Backwards Glide on the right foot, toe picked with the left, rotation, landing on the right foot and continuing the backwards glide. I assume this clarifies?

Yep, a toeloop. Or, as another poster pointed, out, a "toe-waltz jump" if you pivoted more than 1/4 turn on the toe before jumping.

[luna_skater]

I just skimmed this thread because I'm in a bit of a rush, but for Kevin's (or anyone else's) future reference :) :

(CCW jumps - landing on right foot)

Waltz: LFO edge take-off, half-rotation, land RBO edge
Toe-loop: RBO edge take-off, pick in with left foot, full-rotation, land RBO edge
Salchow: LBI edge take-off, full-rotation, land RBO edge
Loop: RBO edge take-off, full-rotation, land RBO edge
Flip: LBI edge, pick in with right foot, full-rotation, land RBO edge
Lutz: LBO edge, pick in with right foot, full-rotation, land RBO edge

There are walleys, half-jumps, etc., but these are your standard jumps.

[EastonSkater]

I'm not sure... maybe it was an unintentional lutz jump. But if it was a mistake, it'd probably be a clutz jump.