The Dreaded "Fear" Monster.....

[e-skater]

Today, at the end of my lesson, my coach worked me on outside spread eagles. Oh, don't get excited. I can't do these. I can open easily into the position, but that's it. I've worked off and on on OSE for a long time. I've also taken falls from leaning forward during the "opening", stabbing my free foot heel into the ice and going down. What holds me back is that I am not willing, at least not yet, to GO FASTER into these on my own. Even when my coach holds me, I am tense upon opening into the position.

Well, she pushed me today. I almost botched a couple of entries, but she was able to keep me upright. I finally got into one and it just feels good once you are in the position. She was just kind of touching my hand, not really holding me as securely as usual...the speed was great, and the exit into a inside edge bauer is easy. But that was with coach holding me.

I know that speed makes the OSE easier. I know that to achieve the position and hold it for a while you have to enter it faster. People can say all day "you have to go faster", but that willingness has to come from within myself.

So, the dreaded fear monster is really rearing up in this particular element for me. It's very frustrating, as I know I am the only one who can do anything about it. It's also frustrating to so easily open into this position and not (yet anyway) be able to produce an OSE. I love seeing people do that move......

The OSE remains an element of which I am OPENLY afraid (as opposed to the ever-present subconscious fear about other elements or moves). ;)

Has anyone here worked on an OSE, were you afraid like me at some point, and if you were, what worked for you to overcome it? Just curious. There could be something that might fool my mind and help me work on this more aggressively.

[CoolbugSuz]

Hi Janet. I know the fear monster all too well. I run into it everytime I have to do jumps, LOL!

Hmm, outside spread eagles are the one thing I can do consistently. Keep in mind, these are not Brian Boitano spread eagles, but they're 41 year old out of shape woman outside spread eagles, LOL!! I'm still working on trying to get the butt tucked in, which requires more speed. Mine are sort of "rump eagles" at this point.

I can only do them going to the right....and for the longest time I could only do them by going into it by gliding forward on my right foot, then flipping my left foot out. I've been working on the clockwise back crossovers, then stepping the right foot out and then arcing into the outside spread eagle position. I'm still working on the speed thing, and that is definitely scary.

I would say to just keep practicing and practicing, the more comfortable you get with the position and feeling of them, the more you will feel that you can up the speed a little. Your body will get to know the feeling, and that if something is not right, then you can abort it before you get out of control.

For some reason, I have always been able to turn open my hips to do the outside spread eagle.....I attribute it to riding horses when I was a kid. :) But I'm glad I am able to do it, because it's a nice little "trick" to have in the arsenal (and my arsenal only contains 1 item at this point, LOL!!!).

Suz

[Casey]

It's been my experience that speed makes everything easier.

Sometimes, the additional speed helps you simply because you have more power to work with, but more often it's a matter of lowering your inhibitions because you're going faster and you just have to do it...you have less time to react, you need to get on with it now, or you're going to be out of space. Going slower and thinking about it too much is only going to hold you back - just charge in! I think you actually have more chance of falling if you're going too slow.

On the other hand, sometimes it is useful to slow down and work on the details, and that's the part I'm less good about doing. ;-)

Good luck!

[coskater64]

I learned these as a kid and they were good. As an adult they are okay, I turn out in my knees and my right hip doesn't go completely in, my butt sticks out a little. But, I can do it and it is much easier w/ speed. It took me about 1 1/2 years but now I do an axel out of it and it works really well.

In general the rule I follow is: if you can do it the first time, then it was to easy, make it harder.

Good luck and keep up the good work. :lol:

[phoenix]

I'm with you on the fear thing. I too freak out at faster speeds; my issue is turns at speed (not 3 turns, but brackets, rockers, counters, twizzles). My coach is currently focusing on these, & I'm scared out of my mind! I've made up my mind that I simply haven't been falling enough lately, & have coccooned myself into my little comfort zone; and I'm to a point where if I want to progress I need to push myself beyond what's comfortable.

My way of dealing with it is to just force myself to practice it a lot. If coach makes me do something twice in my lesson, I do it 3 times when practicing on my own. If I'm supposed to do 2 bracket/3's in a row, I go for 3. Then when he wants to see it I'll actually be doing less than I'm used to so it feels easier.

[doubletoe]

The outside spread eagle is my best move, but I only do it in one direction. When it seems so easy that I can't imagine how anyone can be afraid of it, all I have to do is try it going the other direction, and then I go, "Oh yeah . . ." LOL!

I am not going to tell you to push yourself to go into it with more speed if that scares you. But I do suggest you keep doing it over and over until you feel more control over your edges and really feel that you have the right amount of weight on the leading foot and trailing foot (you need to transfer weight onto the trailing foot ASAP so that you have about 60% of your weight on the trailing foot). Also, stop looking at the ice. Focus on looking over your leading shoulder and you'll find that it helps you hold the position. Hang in there; the payoff is worth it! :D

[Sk8pdx]

It's been my experience that speed makes everything easier.!

...and scarier! 8O

Sometimes, the additional speed helps you simply because you have more power to work with, but more often it's a matter of lowering your inhibitions because you're going faster and you just have to do it...you have less time to react, you need to get on with it now, or you're going to be out of space. Going slower and thinking about it too much is only going to hold you back - just charge in!

I have been experimenting with this mentality going into jumps at *full speed*(or as close to full speed as I dare :oops: ). Even with my little waltz jumps it works. I went 10 laps around the rink. On each end of the rink I would attempt a waltz jump as big as I could and as fast that stretched my comfort level. The more I did it, the easier it was. ... my little 1/2 flip still freaks me out though. :cry:

[samba]

I'm with you on the fear thing. I too freak out at faster speeds; my issue is turns at speed (not 3 turns, but brackets, rockers, counters, twizzles). My coach is currently focusing on these, & I'm scared out of my mind! I've made up my mind that I simply haven't been falling enough lately, & have coccooned myself into my little comfort zone; and I'm to a point where if I want to progress I need to push myself beyond what's comfortable.

I can so relate to this, I'm a free skater and jumping is my comfort zone, so it's with dance steps that the little white horned monster stretches his hand from out of the ice and grabs my foot, first pulling it gently, swaying me backwards and forwards and just when I think I have recovered from it he finds a puddle, plus an audience and.....bam!!

[Mrs Redboots]

I can so relate to this, I'm a free skater and jumping is my comfort zone, so it's with dance steps that the little white horned monster stretches his hand from out of the ice and grabs my foot, first pulling it gently, swaying me backwards and forwards and just when I think I have recovered from it he finds a puddle, plus an audience and.....bam!!Oh, so that's why you couldn't extend at Bracknell????? ;) :twisted:

[samba]

Oh, so that's why you couldn't extend at Bracknell????? ;) :twisted:
But of course Annabel, I would be brilliant if it wasn't for that little devil I think I'm going to put a price on his head.

Cheers
Grace

[e-skater]

The outside spread eagle is my best move, but I only do it in one direction.

But I do suggest you keep doing it over and over until you feel more control over your edges and really feel that you have the right amount of weight on the leading foot and trailing foot (you need to transfer weight onto the trailing foot ASAP so that you have about 60% of your weight on the trailing foot). Also, stop looking at the ice. Focus on looking over your leading shoulder and you'll find that it helps you hold the position. Hang in there; the payoff is worth it! :D

:bow: ..... re the outside eagle being your best move.....I love seeing these done fast and in a good position.

LOL re "stop looking at the ice". :roll: Yes, it does tend to "rush by"..... 8O Seriously though, I don't look at my feet anymore as it pulls me off balance. However, my head is in neutral, as opposed to looking over the leading shoulder. I can only do that when coach supports my fingers. :oops: Odd how that is just enough psychological support to keep me going......and proof I can probably do this on my own eventually....

I will just keep practicing and practicing this. Thanks all. I am determined to get it.

[doubletoe]

:bow: ..... re the outside eagle being your best move.....I love seeing these done fast and in a good position.

LOL re "stop looking at the ice". :roll: Yes, it does tend to "rush by"..... 8O Seriously though, I don't look at my feet anymore as it pulls me off balance. However, my head is in neutral, as opposed to looking over the leading shoulder. I can only do that when coach supports my fingers. :oops: Odd how that is just enough psychological support to keep me going......and proof I can probably do this on my own eventually....

I will just keep practicing and practicing this. Thanks all. I am determined to get it.

If you do just one thing that nudges you out of your comfort zone, I think you will get the most mileage out of looking over your leading shoulder. If you aren't getting a solid edge and you force yourself to go into it with more speed, it could just magnify the error and make you lose your edge, which can be a little nerve-wracking. But looking over your leading shoulder will help you solidify your outside edge, which will then allow you to start increasing your speed safely.

[flippet]

This may not help you at all (since I'm not familiar with your level), but I can do a so-so OSE...(like another poster, gliding on the ROE and flipping the left foot out) but what I find really fun is to get on those outside edges in a squat (kind of like a cantilever, but not actually, um, cantilevered. :lol: ). Since I'm closer to the ice, I have less fear of falling, and I find I can push my own personal envelope regarding the depth of edge, tightness of circle, weight balance, looking over the leading shoulder, etc.

[Casey]

I actually find OSE's far easier the other direction, and that may or may not be because of how I learned to and prefer to go into them - I start with an ISE with the right foot in front and the left trailing, then lean the other way and turn the feet out more, so I'm on outside edges arcing the opposite direction. Sometimes it's fun to alternate back and forth between the two a number of times. Now if I could only get my legs straight I'd be happier. :P

[e-skater]

I actually find OSE's far easier the other direction, and that may or may not be because of how I learned to and prefer to go into them - I start with an ISE with the right foot in front and the left trailing, then lean the other way and turn the feet out more, so I'm on outside edges arcing the opposite direction. Sometimes it's fun to alternate back and forth between the two a number of times. Now if I could only get my legs straight I'd be happier. :P

Hi Casey. The one thing I do have is straight legs and a tucked butt! Lucky that way in this move. I have fooled with ISE to OSE. Will keep trying everything. Thanks for the tip! :)

[jazzpants]

You guys who can do any type of OSE are SOOOOO lucky!!! :evil: I don't have the turn out to even do an so-so ISE yet. Heaven knows I've tried doing it... even against the wall, but it just doesn't happen. :cry:

I had the "fear monster" on faster speeds too... until I found out there are scarier things than going faster... like my coach dragging ME along REALLY fast!!! (Her point was "Hey! You were going at fast speeds and you didn't fall!!! Now go as fast as I've pulled you!!!") A year and a half later...no more "fear monster" on going faster (at least on stroking.) Now I have to figure out how to go into an intro-3 faster on power 3's. Same with FI mohawks...and while going faster, still keep it neat and tidy too! Oh, dear... 8O

[crayonskater]

OT, but I wonder if it's harder for adults because we go faster than little kids, generating a lot of power before we can fully control it for singles.

[aussieskater]

e-skater, I'm nowhere near outside spreadeagles yet, so maybe take this with a large grain of salt, but I've had the same trouble with my brain refusing to allow me to let go of the coach for some things. We could be touching fingernail to fingernail, but if there's daylight between those fingernails, my brain sometimes won't go that next step.

Something that worked to fool my brain into acknowledging that the coach was not physically holding me up (and despite that, it was OK to take the risk!) was to hold something like a small rolled-up bandage in the hand which was normally being touched by the coach. My hand would automatically squeeze the item at the danger moment (hence a small bandage as it feels a bit like flesh LOL) and my brain would think there was someone there to save me if I fell. Then I could do the manouevre. (I'm not altogether sure what this says about my brain...No, there's no need to tell me, guys!) After a few goes with the quasi-flesh, even my needle-sharp intelligence would get the message that I really *could* do "whatever" on my own, at which point I could return the bandage to my skate bag.

Just a suggestion, FWIW. It might help to get you over the current hurdle?

[e-skater]

We could be touching fingernail to fingernail, but if there's daylight between those fingernails, my brain sometimes won't go that next step.

Something that worked to fool my brain into acknowledging that the coach was not physically holding me up (and despite that, it was OK to take the risk!) was to hold something like a small rolled-up bandage in the hand which was normally being touched by the coach. My hand would automatically squeeze the item at the danger moment (hence a small bandage as it feels a bit like flesh LOL) and my brain would think there was someone there to save me if I fell.
Just a suggestion, FWIW. It might help to get you over the current hurdle?

LOL :lol: (but in a good way....with you, not at you....) re this......Hey, I'll try anything and I may as well try this. And I believe you. A much older skater than me was out there recently. Her coach was holding her on something...it may have been forward xovers. The coach's glove was steadily being pulled lower and lower by the student until you could see the coach's hand........the student was holding on *by a finger*, didn't know it, and just kept going! :lol:

I did have luck today looking over the L shoulder in my OSE attempts, despite still going in too slow. I find this holds you up and does instill confidence, just by virtue of the body position being "more correct" (if that's even an understandable concept.... :roll: ).

Loved your post!!!!

[icecatepairs]

hmmm...might want to try pm my partner 2salcow on this one. he is very comfortable carting my butt around the ice in that position. he can lift like that as well as change from outside to inside while bearing my body weight. not so good on my end. i'll stick to throwing my leg over my head while he does that. once it was esatblished that i suck at that then we never pursued anything with me in that position. i actualy don't know what entry he usess because i can't see him at that point in our spiral sequence or in a lift, but he might have some good tips up his sleeve...I'll tell him to check out this thread but try him on pm. hes away but will be back on wed. good luck.

[2salch0w]

As promised icecatepairs asked me to check this thread out, so here I am. My tips on the dreaded OSE:

- Janet, you're right that speed is important. You simply can't do this when moving slowly.

- Until you "have it", I wouldn't suggest stepping directly into the OSE. Too much can go wrong. The best entrance to learn is to step into an inside eagle from a simple FI mohawk setup. I'm assuming you have the inside eagle. If not, get that one first. It is easier and if you can't do that, you're not ready for the outside yet.

- Work the inside eagle until you're comfortable going very fast and doing a very large circle on shallow inside edges. Then try to flatten it out so it is nearly a straight line. Then work on the outside edge. This should be a gradual progression.

- Do off ice exercises to open up your hips. If your hips aren't loose enough it'll be very difficult to master. If you are naturally closed in the hips, then you may only be able to go so far with this. Best exercise is the one where you sit on the floor, soles of feet pressed together, then try to let the knees fall all the way to the floor with your heels pulled all the way into your crotch. For a more advanced version, do the same thing with your feet and legs, but lay on your stomach and use gravity to push your knees out. Note: it's good to have someone nearby to help you out of this in case you get stuck. LOL

- I personally wouldn't recommend having someone spot you through this particular move. I think it is all about finding it on your own, but that may just be me.

- When I was learning it (on inlines, mind you) I had to bend my knees and squat through it a bit to find the right spot on my outside edges. Kind of like the spread eagles you see some dancers do. It required a little less stretch through the hips, but showed me where to put my weight on the edges.

- You have to play around with exactly where on your blade you need to be, not so much in the deepness of the edge (that'll just happen), but in the front vs back of the blade. And how far apart your feet are has a lot to do with this. So whilst working the whole inside to a straight line thing, pay a LOT of attention to where you are on each blade, and the distance between your two heels. There should be a spot there that is secure and comfortable.

- Last thing - more weight on the leading foot. About 70/30.

Good luck!

Tim

[Kevin Callahan]

You know I don't really fear trying anything. I'm comfortable with the ice and being on it, and I'm comfortable with pushing myself even if I fall. As I've stated before, a lot of what I learned, including my waltz jump, was entirely self-taught from trial and error attempts at duplicating the skaters around me. I've fallen a lot, bruised myself a lot, even ended up bleeding a couple of times where you'd think I was in the other ice skating sport again. Perhaps it's due to my hockey history, but pain, especially pain I can blame only myself for really doesn't stop me from doing just about anything on the ice.

What I am afriad of is other skaters.

Really, really afraid of other skaters. For the older crowd, especially females in their teens, I worry they will collide into me if I can't get out of the way fast enough. I waste an awful lot of time standing around on the ice waiting for an opening where I feel I'm safe. My other biggest fear is, despite the fact I weigh 115LBs, I'm still male and powerful (between track and the Navy, I have serious lower body strength), that I will plow into a very young skater and seriously hurt them. I've had at least one collision and two close calls with young skaters because we're both immature in our skating and our meneuverability is limited. Luckily, the one collision hurt neither of us. If I see a young skater coming anywhere near me, I will often stop, even if in the middle of a move and wait until they pass before continuing. This can get very annoying if the ice is packed with people.

Dealing with yourself is one thing, but adding other people, especially skaters of varying levels all on a dangerous surface with dangerous equipment, and then you have something else entirely.

[2salch0w]

[QUOTE=Kevin Callahan]
>What I am afriad of is other skaters.
>
>Really, really afraid of other skaters.

Yeah, me too, especially when they are over my head. LOL

[Kevin Callahan]

Never had that happen. I'm taller than most people on the ice, and I don't have the upper body strength for pairs.

[icecatepairs]

2salcow..never fear we have never crashed while lifting in a spread eagle....but we both strongly suggest never doing a death spiral while the male partner is wearing brand new klingbiels (klingblocks!!!) 8O um is that a feature to the death spiral.???...anyway good luck on the spread eagle. i tried it this morning from the inside edge first and promptly decided it is a good thing he is on the bottom of that tower. you are all braver than me!!! :)

[doubletoe]

- Last thing - more weight on the leading foot. About 70/30.


Tim

Are you sure?? I was dissecting my OSE to figure out how I was doing it, and I discovered that Iactually transfer more weight onto my trailing foot to keep it from slipping off the edge. I didn't realize I was doing this until I tried the OSE the other direction (the direction I can't do well) and found that the edge of the back foot wouldn't hold unless I consciously transferred more weight onto it as soon as I placed it down onto the ice. Maybe this technique of transferring weight onto the back foot is specific to an entry that starts with the leading foot and then has the trailing foot come down and lock in place (as opposed to starting from an inside SE).

[2salch0w]

Are you sure?? I was dissecting my OSE to figure out how I was doing it, and I discovered that Iactually transfer more weight onto my trailing foot to keep it from slipping off the edge. I didn't realize I was doing this until I tried the OSE the other direction (the direction I can't do well) and found that the edge of the back foot wouldn't hold unless I consciously transferred more weight onto it as soon as I placed it down onto the ice. Maybe this technique of transferring weight onto the back foot is specific to an entry that starts with the leading foot and then has the trailing foot come down and lock in place (as opposed to starting from an inside SE).


I'm sure that's what works for me, and I've seen it described that way before as well. I don't really think about leaning more towards the lead foot, or trying to center myself over that foot or anything. But that foot has more pressure, if that makes any sense, as it is guiding the way and determining the edge. The problem of getting too much on the back foot is that the front foot will wobble if it is being forced into a path (by the back foot) that it isn't set to be on. This is hard to describe.

Tim

[doubletoe]

Okay, let's split the difference and say both feet need to be planted pretty firmly on the ice, LOL!