Coach's Role in Testing

[dbny]

Tim David's experience with Silver Moves got me thinking about the importance of coaching re testing. It's not only important that a coach be present, but also that a coach knows the ropes and coaches their students on the test taking procedures and expectations.

A young skater I know just passed Prelim moves only after skating the entire test twice in a row! That happened because the skater's coach, though present, did not tell the skater that he should go over to the judges, introduce himself before beginning, and let them know which test he was taking. Both he and another skater (different coach) went through the entire test without ever looking at the judges to see if they were ready. After the test had been skated, the judges, who had been chatting with each other, looked up, and asked "are they ready to start?" My daughter was saved a good deal of trouble, because she did introduce herself and found that the judges were expecting to see Int moves, while she was testing Juv. Looking at the judges after each move is also important to be sure that they have finished scoring and are ready for you to move on. At the same test session where my daughter passed Juv MIF, another skater went before her and did not know the steps to the 8 step! The judges actually let her coach demo it for her before a re-skate. She still did not get it, and did not pass, but clearly the judges at that test session were open to the coach's input.

[Debbie S]

Both he and another skater (different coach) went through the entire test without ever looking at the judges to see if they were ready. After the test had been skated, the judges, who had been chatting with each other, looked up, and asked "are they ready to start?" Huh? 8O Didn't the test chair (or other club volunteer) announce the skaters and their test when they came on the ice? That's how it's done at my club and every other test session that I've seen. Each time I've tested, I've gone over to the judges and introduced myself, out of respect, but I've been told that is optional. I can't fathom how an entire panel of judges could sit and talk to each other the entire time 2 skaters were going through the test - Prelim is like 10 minutes, right? Talk about incompetence - but I guess if you've been in skating a while, you've seen everything.

At the same test session where my daughter passed Juv MIF, another skater went before her and did not know the steps to the 8 step! The judges actually let her coach demo it for her before a re-skate. She still did not get it, and did not pass, but clearly the judges at that test session were open to the coach's input.Um, shouldn't the coach have taught it to the skater before the test? Or did the skater just get really nervous and forget?

[techskater]

I tested my Intermediate MIF today and my coach wasn't present. HOWEVER, we've been over it up and down, sideways, etc and she talked me down before the warm up (I skated first after the warm up). I took my time, maintained power, strength, and flow, and I actually managed to pass! I was about to call my coach and tell her we were going to get a retry! 8O

[phoenix]

I think moves tests in particular are crucial for the coach's input--both in preparing & at the actual test itself. There are SO many things to remember & do exactly a certain way. Dance & freestyle too, but it seems Moves are kind of in a league of their own. The one time I didn't have my coach with me was for my first 2 moves tests (took them at the same time), & I really wished he was there! Even though they were just little baby tests & I was perfectly fine.

I just like having someone standing at the door for me to look over at. Calms me down a bit--& I can use all the calming I can get when testing.

Whenever I see someone doing a moves test & not waiting for the judges to look at them, or not finishing each element (coming to a nice stop), or that sort of thing, I blame the coach. That's all part of the prep work. When my students test I almost always tell them to come back to me between each element, even if I have nothing to say (need to be careful not to overdo that)--it keeps them calmer, & makes them breathe a bit between things, instead of rushing through the test & exhausting themselves halfway through.

[dbny]

I agree that the test chair should have kept a tighter rein on things, but IMO, ultimately, it comes down to the coach's responsibility in preparing their students. As for the student who did not know the correct steps in the 8 step, I really don't have a clue how that happened. I don't know that coach, although I've seen her around since then. What surprised me was the leeway the judges gave them. That kid practically had a lesson right there; meanwhile, my daughter was waiting patiently thinking she was to skate in just a moment. It was more like 15 minutes on just that move!

I've seen lots of coaches teaching in a vacuum when it comes to testing. Meaning, they haven't studied the PSA MIF tapes, they are not familiar with the local judges and test chairs, and they don't have a clue what the proper test protocals are. At one test session, I was standing next to my coach, when another coach turned to her and asked in a panic, "what elements are in this test?" - the one his student was already on the ice for! I've also seen skaters enter and exit pre-pre and prelim MIF tests with absurdly contrived steps as if to show off that they really should be at a higher level.

[stardust skies]

For what's worth, I've tested at a bunch of different rinks and I've never heard a test chair announcing a skater before a test.

Meanwhile, it was my personal decision never to have a coach present for my tests. I think I had one come for my Pre-Pre although I don't remember that test at all, but from Prelim. on up, I asked to be dropped off, and my mom just waited outside for me- the coach didn't come along at all. I have a thing with performing in front of people I really care about, I cannot do it well to this day, which is why much to my parents' dismay, they have never seen a single one of my competitions (except on tape, after the fact), and since I respect my coaches a lot too, having them there would totally screw me up. All the people I've ever taken from have understood this, and really didn't have a problem with it. My tests have all gone great. I actually have no testing horror stories, I've been very fortunate. I think it's a personal thing. I always get so surprised to read how *everyone* just has to have their coach there....and here I am, not being able to fathom even skating forwards at a test session in front of mine.

He does come to competitions, but that's different. In competitions it's not a Yes or No, it's just a...what place will I get? So I can deal with that better, somehow.

[TashaKat]

It's not only important that a coach be present, but also that a coach knows the ropes and coaches their students on the test taking procedures and expectations.

I think that it depends on the skater. I wasn't bothered whether my coach was there or not in fact I probably skated better when she wasn't :D By preference it would just be me and the judges.

Saying that, though, she ALWAYS prepared me well beforehand, went over procedures etc. I think that it's negligent sending a skater into a test not knowing how things work.

[vesperholly]

I have a friend who tested Senior Moves, and instead of doing the outside and then inside power pull quick rockers/3-turns sequence, she did two sets of outside. The judges didn't make her reskate or comment on it on her test papers. She didn't pass, but huh?? :frus:

[Moto Guzzi]

On our club's test sessions somebody makes sure the judges know which skater they are judging, particularly when a test is double paneled. The tests are not only announced, the individual moves are, too. As each skater completes an element, there is a pause for the judges to make any notes. The test chair or assistant will then announce the next move and tell the skater, "You may begin."

I saw a test once where it was quite obvious that the child testing had no idea of how to do a waltz 8. The judges called her over and tried to explain it and told her to go talk to her coach. It quickly became apparent that the coach had no idea of what it was, either. 8O The test did not pass, of course.

[Mrs Redboots]

At test sessions in this country you only get a fixed-length warm-up (forget what it is), and the test chair makes sure the next skater is ready to go on. The judge calls the skater over, normally, before the test starts, especially if he or she has any particular instructions for the skater (which, on Moves tests, they sometimes do).

I found I disliked having my coach present last time I tested, as he kept saying "Remember this, remember that" which made me more nervous. Husband's coach was chatting to him about the price of tea in China, or something similar, which I think is a much better idea!

[skateflo]

Everyone is different including coaches. It is a sad state of affairs that there are coaches who don't even own a rulebook (current one!) and the student doesn't know the requirements for the test (both what is included and how to do it!) While I can appreciate some skaters prefer not to have their coach with them, and at times it is not possible, having a coach witness the test is valuable. I say this because judges do make mistakes too. A dedicated, knowledgable coach will see the good and the bad in the test and can plan for future instruction of the skater, regardless of what the judges saw, or failed to see. These tests are meant to build up skills, not be a one time shot and stuffed in the closet.

Skaters' parents and adult skaters pay significant money for lessons and ice time to practice. Why would they do this without knowing the current rules!!?? Skaters need to take personal responsibility!

I am stunned to read that judges would try and teach a skater the move they are supposed to know for the test. Better they should ask for the coach and assertain if the coach has taught the student correctly. To do otherwise is a waste of testing time for the judges and the other skaters waiting.

And I totally agree that the coach does have a responsibility to know the current testing culture and prepare the student ahead of time.



All I can say is Wow!......:( I guess the flu bug has made me a little more testy than normal....

[doubletoe]

I tested my Intermediate MIF today and my coach wasn't present. HOWEVER, we've been over it up and down, sideways, etc and she talked me down before the warm up (I skated first after the warm up). I took my time, maintained power, strength, and flow, and I actually managed to pass! I was about to call my coach and tell her we were going to get a retry! 8O

Congratulations!!! I'm planning to go for that one in a few months myself. I just passed Adult Gold MIF and am trying to keep all of them warmed up as I master the only Intermediate move that wasn't on that test (the power crossovers with BO3's around the ends).

[doubletoe]

At test sessions in this country you only get a fixed-length warm-up (forget what it is), and the test chair makes sure the next skater is ready to go on. The judge calls the skater over, normally, before the test starts, especially if he or she has any particular instructions for the skater (which, on Moves tests, they sometimes do).

I found I disliked having my coach present last time I tested, as he kept saying "Remember this, remember that" which made me more nervous. Husband's coach was chatting to him about the price of tea in China, or something similar, which I think is a much better idea!

I also thought it was strange that judges could have failed to notice an entire test, since we are only given a 5-minute warmup prior to testing at my club and I sort of assumed everyone else got a fixed amount of time to warm up as well. If they told certain skaters to warm up and they tell the same skaters to stop warming up, I would assume they would then call out a specific skater to start his/her test. . .
I totally agree with what you're saying about having my coach present on a test, LOL! But the very first time I ever tested, I really would have liked to have my coach there because I had no idea what to expect. I think he was a real cad not coming to my first test to walk me through it (I have since changed coaches).

[Debbie S]

I am stunned to read that judges would try and teach a skater the move they are supposed to know for the test. Better they should ask for the coach and assertain if the coach has taught the student correctly. To do otherwise is a waste of testing time for the judges and the other skaters waiting.
Actually, if you read dbny's post carefully, you'll see that it was in fact the coach that did the demo on the 8-step for the student. The judges merely allowed it to happen. But I agree with you that allowing a coach to give a mini-lesson during the test session is a waste of everyone's time. Either the skater knows it or doesn't. I could see the judges allowing more leeway if the skater was very young (like 8 or 9 or younger) and got nervous and forgot part of a move, but at that level (Juvenile), I think skaters should be expected to remember the moves, regardless of age. I could understand it happening at Pre-Prelim - the first test - but not at a higher level.

[MQSeries]

When I was testing I never felt that it was necessary for my coach to be present at all. In fact I disliked having to pay him $10 for just standing there, but it didn't feel right somehow to have told him "I don't need you to be there".

If it's your first time testing then I can see the coach being there to take you through the process. But after you've tested 3 or more times then you just have to wail till it's your turn to be on the ice and then just do it when the time comes. There's nothing that a coach can say or do during that day that will help you pass if you haven't already been putting in the hours to get it right. Sometimes it feels like the coach just wants the extra money.

[Debbie S]

Sometimes it feels like the coach just wants the extra money.
Don't forget, though, that your coach will also discuss the judges' comments with you after you get your marks. Pass or retry, you're sure to get constructive criticism about what you did, and it helps to have your coach decipher what the judges said and exactly what they were referring to - if your coach didn't see you skate, he/she can't put the judges' comments into context. If you have to retry the test, knowing exactly what you did and what the judges thought about it is helpful to prepare for the next test. It's hard to see what you're doing as you are doing it, and it helps to have a coach point that out to you afterward.

[skateflo]

DebbieS - you said it much more nicely......thanks.

[nja]

Personally, I think it is a good idea to have your coach present. My husband is a test chair and by default I am usually the door monitor at the sessions. Yes, the coaches can't really do much during the actual test, but the warmups can often be critical, and the coaches are usually very involved in making little corrections, reminders, etc. and making sure the skaters cover what they need during the warmup. Yes, we have had it happen where a coach was obviously not aware of the protocols of a test session or had a questionable grasp of the test elements, but that is a rarity. Like Debbie S., I also think it is better that the coach see the actual test and be there to talk to the judges along with the skater. That way they are seeing and hearing things first hand and not actually relying on the skater or their parents for a version of the event.

I actually get a little nervous when I see a kid alone at the door. Sometimes things go ok and sometimes they don't. Adult testors can be hit or miss also. Some adults are perfectly fine without a coach (we have even had a few try tests without working with a coach prior to the test, but I won't go into that here!); others are some of the most nervous wrecks I have ever seen, even with a coach. It's hard to watch a coachless skater struggle on the warmup and have no one to turn to for help. I'm a skater myself, but I'm not a coach, and I would never dream of interferring with someone else's student, even if it is with good intentions. I don't know what they have been told by their coach, and I could very easily make things worse! I end up giving them an encouraging smile, the proverbial pat on the arm and wishing them luck.

For my Bronze Freestyle I tested without a coach, but I was way above the skill level for that test, so it wasn't a big deal. For Silver, my coach was there, and it was a comfort knowing she was there in case anything came up (fortunately nothing did). For my Gold tests, I wouldn't dream of testing without my coach. I'm his first adult to get to that level and my success is as important to him as it is to me, and I'm not talking about a coach who is only concerned with adding another credential to his resume. He didn't need to do a whole lot when I tested my Gold MIF, but he did keep my mind in the game during the warm up, and during the test I could look over and see him nodding encouragement, little things like that. Believe me, it helps! When I passed that test, he was just as excited, if not more, than I was. I didn't pass the Gold FS on my first try (2nd try to hopefully come early in 2006), but we have come this far together and it wouldn't feel right for him to not be there.

[sk8er1964]

I tested my Intermediate MIF today and my coach wasn't present. HOWEVER, we've been over it up and down, sideways, etc and she talked me down before the warm up (I skated first after the warm up). I took my time, maintained power, strength, and flow, and I actually managed to pass! I was about to call my coach and tell her we were going to get a retry! 8O

Woo hoo!!! 8-) :D

I'm so glad you passed it - I've been cyber-ly pulling for you. Welcome to the "Novice Moves Suck Club"! :roll: ;)

[Mel On Ice]

I've been to rinks that announce the skaters before their freestyle test.

Most all of the judges I have worked with will call the skater over to the panel to check names and what they are preparing to test, and soothe their nerves if need be. If it's a large group of skaters, I cannot fathom judges NOT communicating with the individual. VERY important when a session includes an Ashley, Ashleigh, Madeline, Madison, Jennifer, Jen and Jenny.

And having a coach there is important, esp. in the context of preparing you for the test and actually performing it. I could give a rat's butt about my coach being there for a competition, but testing is, to me, so much more intense that I like having her there as a sounding board.

That said, I think Silver moves will be rotated into activity for '06, maybe to pass in '07.

[jenlyon60]

At my club the tests are almost always double-paneled (unless you happen to be the odd number left over within a level). For Preliminary through Novice MIF, it means that there's generally 2 skaters on the ice skating at the same time except for certain elements (Intermediate Slide Chasse Sequence, Novice Spirals). For Junior, it will normally be double paneled also except for the choctaws and the quick power pull/rockers. For Senior MIF, the tests will be double paneled except the skaters will alternate skating.

Our test chair will announce the names of the testers and which end of the ice they are on. If any judges are unsure (similar names etc), they may ask for clarification (outfit color, hand waving, etc.) Our test chair also announces each MIF element before the skaters start.

For Pre-Preliminary/Pre-Bronze, there's normally up to 6 skaters on the ice testing at the same time, since Pre-Pre/Pre-Bronze can be single paneled with a Silver test judge or higher. In this case, our test chair has the testers do the perimeter stroking (both directions) and the Pre-Pres do their spirals. Then she has all the testers in the current group come over to the barrier and she points out to them who their judge is for the remainder of the test. Then each judge will have their tester do the remaining elements, deconflicting ice space if necessary.

[flying~camel]

That said, I think Silver moves will be rotated into activity for '06, maybe to pass in '07.

We should work on them together ;)

[Kelli]

Don't forget, though, that your coach will also discuss the judges' comments with you after you get your marks. Pass or retry, you're sure to get constructive criticism about what you did, and it helps to have your coach decipher what the judges said and exactly what they were referring to - if your coach didn't see you skate, he/she can't put the judges' comments into context. If you have to retry the test, knowing exactly what you did and what the judges thought about it is helpful to prepare for the next test. It's hard to see what you're doing as you are doing it, and it helps to have a coach point that out to you afterward.

Totally agree with everything here. Another thing a coach can do is keep an eye on what the judges are looking for (beyond the obvious). On my last test, the judges were being unusually picky about the forward inside edge on the novice spirals. The skaters in the group before me who passed both got comments from the judges about their spirals, and one had to reskate. My coach told me about this so I could be extra sure to really hit that inside edge. Otherwise, I might not have paid as much attention to it.

[Moto Guzzi]

I am stunned to read that judges would try and teach a skater the move they are supposed to know for the test. Better they should ask for the coach and assertain if the coach has taught the student correctly. To do otherwise is a waste of testing time for the judges and the other skaters waiting.
They weren't trying to teach her the move; they were trying to explain to her what it was. When she was asked to do her waltz 8, she got a blank look on her face and asked what it was. She was a young girl and at first the judges thought that perhaps she didn't know what the move was called. When one of the judges used her finger to indicate what she meant, the girl said she didn't know how to do it. That's when they sent her to her coach. Of course they wouldn't waste testing time to try to teach her; it wouldn't be appropriate anyway.

Edited to say I just read Debbie S's response and realized that you may have been referring to what dbny posted earlier. That surprised me, too.

[slusher]

In my area:
Skaters are announced, mainly so that the judge knows who's who when there's 10 foxtrots in a row, sometimes the judges sheets get out of order. For the little kid skaters, being announced is also prep for competition, so they get used to the ice monitor, announcing, pretty dress, nerves even though it's "just a test". We only have two test days a year, sometimes only one high test day, so testing is a big deal.

Coaches are always there because for skills/moves/elements if something needs to be reskated the coach is told what the judge is looking for then the coach gets to have a run-thru with the skater, not a lesson, but emphasis on doing the thing the judge wants to see. ("quit putting your bloody foot down or you won't pass the blasted test with Judge Evil") Dance of course you need a partner/coach, and for freeskate tests, it's like competition, if you need your coach at competition, you need your coach for the test.

[dbny]

As for the student who did not know the correct steps in the 8 step, I really don't have a clue how that happened. I don't know that coach, although I've seen her around since then. What surprised me was the leeway the judges gave them. That kid practically had a lesson right there;

Just to clarify, since there seems to be some confusion - the judges allowed the coach to demo and instruct the student on the 8 step, right in front of them!

[stardust skies]

What really sucks about coaches that don't know what they're doing, like the one who apparently hadn't taught a poor little girl something so basic as the waltz 8 (and apparently didn't even know how to do it herself), is that not only is this coach not qualified to take kids to tests, but if by some miracle some of their OTHER students manage to be ready for tests, the judges will be a little biased against them if they see that same coach by the boards for them. Obviously they won't fail a kid just cause they have a sucky coach, but the judges might be a lot harder and more judgemental about that particular kid's technique than with other kids who may have "the benefit of the doubt". There should be a way for judges to "report" that a coach is taking a kid to a test without so much as knowing the elements. Poor kids.

[Moto Guzzi]

A girl at my rink once failed her junior freestyle test because her coach, an Olympic-level coach, hadn't read the rule book when changes were made to the junior test elements. The girl would have easily passed had her program contained the new elements rather than the old. This same coach charged another parent a small fortune for cutting her daughter's program music. The first time the daughter competed using the music, she was penalized for going over the time limit. The coach recut the music and charged the mother an additional fee for correcting her own mistake.

[daisies]

A girl at my rink once failed her junior freestyle test because her coach, an Olympic-level coach, hadn't read the rule book when changes were made to the junior test elements. The girl would have easily passed had her program contained the new elements rather than the old. This same coach charged another parent a small fortune for cutting her daughter's program music. The first time the daughter competed using the music, she was penalized for going over the time limit. The coach recut the music and charged the mother an additional fee for correcting her own mistake.
And the parent paid?

[Debbie S]

And the parent paid?Yeah, sounds incredibly unprofessional and unethical to me, but unfortunately, I guess not all coaches are ethical in these situations.

Not to hijack this thread, but the issue of music timing is interesting. In adult comps (and tests), the rules are very clear about music "not exceeding" a particular time (as opposed to the standard track, which has a 10-second leeway over and under the prescribed time). Out of curiosity, when I watched the video of Pre-Bronze and Bronze from HC, I took notice of the program times - I wanted to see how close people get to 1:40 (my last program was 1:39 and my new one is 1:36 - was supposed to be 1:37 but 1 sec got lost in the editing process). Most were in the 1:35 to 1:40 range, but there were several skaters bet the 2 comps whose music clearly went over the allowed time - ex: 1:43, 1:45. I guess the judges and/or referees don't keep track of time. It kind of annoys me, b/c I always find it a challenge to incorporate everything into the time allotment (as I imagine most people do) and here are skaters taking extra time with no apparent penalty - grrr. :evil:

[Moto Guzzi]

And the parent paid?
Apparently so. I don't think she even questioned it but, then, she has considerably more money than I have. It was probably pocket change to her.

[daisies]

Not to hijack this thread, but the issue of music timing is interesting. In adult comps (and tests), the rules are very clear about music "not exceeding" a particular time (as opposed to the standard track, which has a 10-second leeway over and under the prescribed time). Out of curiosity, when I watched the video of Pre-Bronze and Bronze from HC, I took notice of the program times - I wanted to see how close people get to 1:40 (my last program was 1:39 and my new one is 1:36 - was supposed to be 1:37 but 1 sec got lost in the editing process). Most were in the 1:35 to 1:40 range, but there were several skaters bet the 2 comps whose music clearly went over the allowed time - ex: 1:43, 1:45. I guess the judges and/or referees don't keep track of time. It kind of annoys me, b/c I always find it a challenge to incorporate everything into the time allotment (as I imagine most people do) and here are skaters taking extra time with no apparent penalty - grrr. :evil:
The referees do keep time. Some don't blow the whistle, however, and instead tell the judges when the program is over that it exceeded the time limit and by how many seconds. It is then up to each to judge to deduct the appropriate amount, depending on how much the skater went over. So these skaters you refer to may have still been penalized, it just wasn't obvious to the skater or spectators.

Also, timing doesn't start when the music starts, it starts when the skater moves.

[skaternum]

It kind of annoys me, b/c I always find it a challenge to incorporate everything into the time allotment (as I imagine most people do) and here are skaters taking extra time with no apparent penalty - grrr. :evil:
During the 2004 season, I was one of those people whose music went over the time limit. My music was 2:15. I stood still in my opening pose and started moving 3 seconds into it, so I finished the program 2 seconds over. I knew the refs were timing me, but I didn't care. I loved the music, and there was no way it could be cut down to less than 2:10 without destroying the integrity of the piece, so I made the calculated decision to run over a little. I'm sure I got dinged for it in scores, but I knew it would happen. I heard the whistle blow about half of the time; the rest of the time, the ref just told the judges I ran over. No big deal.

[stardust skies]

During the 2004 season, I was one of those people whose music went over the time limit. My music was 2:15. I stood still in my opening pose and started moving 3 seconds into it, so I finished the program 2 seconds over. I knew the refs were timing me, but I didn't care. I loved the music, and there was no way it could be cut down to less than 2:10 without destroying the integrity of the piece, so I made the calculated decision to run over a little. I'm sure I got dinged for it in scores, but I knew it would happen. I heard the whistle blow about half of the time; the rest of the time, the ref just told the judges I ran over. No big deal.

Couldn't you have just waited two extra seconds to move so that it was 5 seconds of standstill and then you wouldn't have gone over at all? Just wondering. I think that's a pretty cool decision either way, even if I'm sure it screwed you in the end.

[skaternum]

Couldn't you have just waited two extra seconds to move so that it was 5 seconds of standstill and then you wouldn't have gone over at all? Just wondering.No, because of the way the music was phrased. Another 2 seconds would have been right in the middle of the next measure. The music was a mandolin concerto by Handel, so it had strong phrasing in the music, and I needed to start on one of the phrases.

I think that's a pretty cool decision either way, even if I'm sure it screwed you in the end.Thanks. And like I said, it was calculated. I knew the program was a good one in terms of content, and I usually skated it well enough that it placed well anyway (usually a medal, if not a win).

More importantly, it had a beautiful costume to accompany it. (Priorities!) ;)

[Skate@Delaware]

A girl at my rink once failed her junior freestyle test because her coach, an Olympic-level coach, hadn't read the rule book when changes were made to the junior test elements.
This did happen with some of the girls at my rink. They went to an ISI comp and were testing the levels-coach had an outdated rulebook. She didn't think any changes would be made in one year. Well, quite a few were made and the girls did not pass their levels, they skated the wrong elements, etc. Of course, the coach still got paid, even though she was wrong.

She learned from this, and the parents also. But it was an expensive lesson for the girls to learn. :cry: