I have a flip mental block :( [Archive]

looplover

12-19-2005, 07:26 PM

Hello!

I don't know why I cannot do a flip. It drives me crazy! I think I'm on the verge of an axel, but I actually have some sort of psychological block about the flip. For some reason it freaks out my 38 year old skater brain.

This has been going on for years!

So when you reach back and plant your toepick into the ice, your weight should transfer to that toepick and you are really taking off from that toepick?

My coach said the toepick is pulling you back, but then it seems like you're taking off from the other blade.

It's so weird that I just can't process this since I can do a toe loop and a loop, and a half flip. I think I have a fear of it and I have no idea why.

Thanks! I need to conquer this.

Debbie S

12-19-2005, 10:03 PM

luna_skater

12-19-2005, 11:19 PM

You should be transferring all of your weight to your picking foot. My keys for the flip:

1. Arms must be strongly checked. L arm straight in front and R arm straight back. I make sure I can see my L hand the whole time. My flips stink when I move my arm before I jump.

2. Reach waaaaay back with your R foot.

3. When you pick in, don't slam your foot into the ice. Pick in and push yourself up off the pick. Once the pick is in, you need to bend your knee to get the push-off. Lift your L knee at the same time to make sure your weight is on your R foot.

4. When you pull in, be sure not to rotate your upper body. Pull straight in from your checked position.

SkatingOnClouds

12-20-2005, 01:40 AM

And when you reach back, don't stand up again before you pick.

A common error is to have a nice deep knee bend and reach right back, but to virtually stand up straight again before you actually pick.

I don't know, some people like toe assisted jumps, others like the edge jumps.
Me, I love the picks.

russiet

12-20-2005, 06:06 AM

renatele

12-20-2005, 06:50 AM

Ah yes... flip mental block. Had that, and now have a lutz mental block.

The technique you are taught sounds right. I still don't do it correctly (jump off two feet instead of fully transfering weight to the picking leg), but what helped me land my first flips were two things: making sure to pick directly behind and not to the side, and then thinking "loop". Even now when my flip gets wonky, picking too much to the side is the most common reason.

*JennaD*

12-20-2005, 06:59 AM

Have you ever tried practicing it on a line? It really helps to get it all aligned...so that you aren't picking way out to the side or anything! Also, checking your arms really helps.

stardust skies

12-20-2005, 12:44 PM

Yes all the weight gets shifted to the toepick....you do not not not take off from the other blade, if you do it's a "toe salchow" which is wrong (even though I think the flip IS called a toe salchow in England, isn't it?).

The way you'll know if you're doing it right is that if you do NOT take off from the forward foot, the gliding foot with draw a line, and then there will be a toepick mark and a landing curve mark. If you are keeping any weight on your front foot and if you take off on it at ALL, that glide back will have a little checkmark at the end, a little "V" shape, right before the gap between the end of the glide and the toepick mark. That means you're pre-rotating and are jumping off your front foot, not your picking foot. This is wrong wrong wrong. I know this because I have ALWAYS done it, and have spent my entire skating career fixing. It's fixed, then it comes back. Fixed, comes back. It's horrid, a nightmare. I don't do it on the lutz much, but way too often on the flip. So learn it correctly...because I didn't, and I suspect the result will always remain my battle.

mikawendy

12-20-2005, 03:56 PM

Sometimes for me, practicing the loop before I start working on flip helps--helps me get the feeling of having the weight committed to the landing side.

doubletoe

12-20-2005, 07:31 PM

Hopefully, this isn't completely repetitive and there's something that hasn't been said yet. . .

1. Before pushing off onto LFO 3-turn, check your right arm back and have your left arm forward.

2. Using a line on the ice for a visual cue, push off slightly to the right of the line and do your LFO 3-turn to the right of the line. Make sure you stay on the right side of the line on the exit of the 3-turn (if you cross to the other side of the line, your 3-turn is too round).

3. On the 3-turn exit, make sure your edge has straightened out and you are not curving around. Have your left arm in front of you and your right arm pulled back. Also arch your back and pull your shoulder blades together and try to feel like a big magnet is pulling your whole body back. If you are even slightly leaned forward, you'll never be able to transfer your weight to your picking foot when you pick.

4. As you reach back to pick, keep your picking foot low and still, and pointed straight down to the ice. The faster you're going, the farther back you have to reach. Never lift teh picking foot just before picking and never bang it down hard. Instead, lock the knee out and point hard, keep it a few inches above the ice, then dig it in and pull yourself back and up in one sweeping motion. Again, your shoulders must be back (squeeze your shoulder blades together) and your back must be rigid as you do this; otherwise you'll be leaned forward and will never get the weight onto your right toe.

5. The faster you're going, the less time between the pick and the takeoff. You leave the ice just as your skating foot is catching up with your picking foot. If your left foot is still ahead and your picking foot still behind, it's impossible to get up in the air and you won't be over your right hip.

6. As you take off right over your right toe, remember that your upper body stays backward, even turned a tiny bit to the right. The rotation comes from twisting your hips as you take off. Your upper body never turns to face forward.

jazzpants

12-20-2005, 10:05 PM

Have you ever tried practicing it on a line? It really helps to get it all aligned...so that you aren't picking way out to the side or anything! Also, checking your arms really helps.I have a flip mental block too! :evil: :frus:

Okay, I should ask...I know that your flip entry should be pretty straight. How straight should it be? (I have it slightly off the blue line...but it's not a big stinkin' curve.)

stardust skies

12-20-2005, 10:18 PM

I have a flip mental block too! :evil: :frus:

Okay, I should ask...I know that your flip entry should be pretty straight. How straight should it be? (I have it slightly off the blue line...but it's not a big stinkin' curve.)

As straight as humanly possible, really. It should be on the shallowest outside edge going in, so you go into it straight, and then once you three turn, you're on the shallowest inside edge possible...then you glide back, reach back, and tap in, all while maintaining a straight line. If you curve that's where the problems happen. You *should* be able to remain completely on the blue line while doing it, cause the blue line is thick and there's enough room to allow for the shallow 3-turn on it. I always used to practice on the blue line, and by the end it would all fit within its width.

looplover

12-21-2005, 05:27 AM

Maybe after this thread I should change my name to fliplover!

Well, I haven't been back to the rink yet.

I think I was still leaning forward though and couldn't transfer my weight to the picking foot. I will work on this Friday, thanks for your replies :bow:

Joan

12-21-2005, 07:48 AM

It should be on the shallowest outside edge going in, so you go into it straight, and then once you three turn, you're on the shallowest inside edge possible...then you glide back, reach back, and tap in, all while maintaining a straight line.

I have trouble with the 3-turn going into the flip - the ice tracing shows a broad swoosh instead of a sharp 3. Is it that I'm not bending my knee enough at the right point? I know I have trouble keeping my hip open and that is part of the problem.

Skate@Delaware

12-21-2005, 09:42 AM

How is it I can do a Flip and I can't get the feel of a Toe Loop?
I feel the same way about the 1/2 flip (luv it!) vs. toe-loop (hate that :evil: !!!) I'm almost ready to do a full flip but I just hate the toe-loop.

jazzpants

12-21-2005, 11:47 AM

As straight as humanly possible, really. It should be on the shallowest outside edge going in, so you go into it straight, and then once you three turn, you're on the shallowest inside edge possible...then you glide back, reach back, and tap in, all while maintaining a straight line. If you curve that's where the problems happen. You *should* be able to remain completely on the blue line while doing it, cause the blue line is thick and there's enough room to allow for the shallow 3-turn on it. I always used to practice on the blue line, and by the end it would all fit within its width.Okay.... the next question is how to get your 3turn "as shallow as humanly possible." Right now, my 3 turns is probably about a couple of inches short of staying on the blue line entirely and it's goes outside only on the actually FO3. The only method I know of that I've tried is this: Go on FO edge on a deep knee bend (which I suspect is probably what causing the 3turn to go outside the blue line, free leg behind me, then bring free foot to the skating foot as I go into the 3turn, come out of FO3 on a BI edge and then bring my free foot behind me. [1]

[1] Of course, I think the free foot is straight behind me...I haven't filmed myself doing the flip as of late. :P

doubletoe

12-21-2005, 12:53 PM

As straight as humanly possible, really. It should be on the shallowest outside edge going in, so you go into it straight, and then once you three turn, you're on the shallowest inside edge possible...then you glide back, reach back, and tap in, all while maintaining a straight line. If you curve that's where the problems happen. You *should* be able to remain completely on the blue line while doing it, cause the blue line is thick and there's enough room to allow for the shallow 3-turn on it. I always used to practice on the blue line, and by the end it would all fit within its width.

Exactly. Try to keep the 3-turn long and straight, but I would also suggest that you try pushing off slightly to the RIGHT of the line and aiming the 3-turn a little to the right of the line (this is the trick my coach taught me when I was having trouble with my flip). If you try to enter the 3-turn straight on the line instead of a little to the right, it will be more difficult to keep from over-rotating your 3-turn exit/jump entrance edge. Check your ice marks and make sure your LBI edge isn't crossing over to the other side of the line before you pick.

doubletoe

12-21-2005, 01:00 PM

P.S. If your arms/shoulders are swinging you around, try doing the 3-turn only moving your body, but with your right arm facing the direction of the jump and your left arm facing the direction your coming from. Basically, this keeps your upper body rotation to a bare minimum and automatically checks your rotation on the 3-turn exit.

Before the 3-turn, I like to start with my my left arm in front and my right arm pulled back to prepare me for the pushoff to the right of the line. Then, as I push off for the LFO 3-turn, I scissor my arms so that the right arm is in front (facing the direction of travel) and the left arm is in back (facing the direction I'm coming from) for the 3-turn. When I do the 3-turn, I only rotate my body, keeping the arms exactly where they are, so that I end up turning to face my left arm, which is still facing the direction I'm coming from, and my right arm is now behind me (still extended in the direction of travel).

stardust skies

12-21-2005, 02:41 PM

Okay.... the next question is how to get your 3turn "as shallow as humanly possible." Right now, my 3 turns is probably about a couple of inches short of staying on the blue line entirely and it's goes outside only on the actually FO3. The only method I know of that I've tried is this: Go on FO edge on a deep knee bend (which I suspect is probably what causing the 3turn to go outside the blue line, free leg behind me, then bring free foot to the skating foot as I go into the 3turn, come out of FO3 on a BI edge and then bring my free foot behind me. [1]

[1] Of course, I think the free foot is straight behind me...I haven't filmed myself doing the flip as of late. :P

Okay, what I do may not work for you, but it's the only way I ever fixed mine so here it goes:

What I do is when I go into the three turn, this is while I'm still gliding on one foot going forwards, right before the push of the other leg into the three turn...I start to curve in the opposite direction than what my body wants to do. This means that if you are a CCW jumper like me...you are gliding on your left foot with the right foot in front of you, and when you push with the right foot, before you turn to go backwards, start arching towards the right, that way it'll counteract any curving or "swooshing" motion during the 3 turn itself and put you on a pretty much flat edge once you go backwards. Now of course when I say curve to the right, I don't mean go full on inside edge to your right, but when you push, push towards the right, go in that direction, because typically when people push, they push out towards the left which gives the 3-turn too much swing and ends up throwing you wayyyyy too far out to the left.

This is what works for me, give it a go and see how it works. I haven't tried this on the blue line or anything, and I go pretty fast, so I'm not sure it would have the same effect if you are trying it on the blue line, but once you're ready to go full speed with it, give it a go and see if it can't help straighten out your 3-turn like it did mine.

Otherwise, there is always the mohawk position!!! One of my coaches made me do double flips from mohawks, and only when I got them clean did he let me switch back to 3-turns, and I realized that spending so long doing them from mohawks had REALLY straightened out my whole entrance. It's really hard to do at first, but it'll help in the long run, so you could try and do it that way for a while too. just do right inside to left inside mohawk and pick in!

stardust skies

12-21-2005, 02:42 PM

I have trouble with the 3-turn going into the flip - the ice tracing shows a broad swoosh instead of a sharp 3. Is it that I'm not bending my knee enough at the right point? I know I have trouble keeping my hip open and that is part of the problem.

What do you mean by broad swoosh? Maybe the mohawk approach I wrote to Jazzpants above would help you out?

e-skater

12-21-2005, 05:31 PM

I worked on the flip today in lesson - well, to put it more accurately, I worked on the setup for the flip - can't do the actual jump yet. What your coach is saying is correct. Assuming you jump CCW, when you reach back with your toe pick, your weight should transfer to your right side, just like with the loop. It's your toe pick that you are leaning on and jumping off of - your free foot gets pulled back toward your toe and you are turning and jumping off of your toe pick.

I'm working on this jump as well. We started up again today during lesson, after a while off. The first two were kind of ok, but the third one was actually "good" according to my coach. Then I could not get another one to save my life. Once I started thinking... :roll:

I have multiple probs in this jump. The worst is the lack of weight xfer to R side. Though I can do a loop fairly well. It doesn't seem to help me in the flip. The probs begin with no weight xfer, plus a strong check, essentially stopping the jump, THEN trying to jump from that point. And dragging my free foot toe pick on what little pull back I have. Though I am getting my free leg crossed in front now, as opposed to having it right next to my R leg.

I understand the jump the same way you describe. I hope these suggestions that work for me aren't already somewhere in this thread, I don't think I saw them.

When the jump works for me (not too often), I find I've thought of only two things.....

First it's the timing, which for me is a "1, 2, 'and' 3" thing:

1. front part of 3
2. back part of 3, held equally long as front part
3. "and" (bend L knee more, reach back)
4. pick and jump

Second, during the timing part, I think RIGHT SIDE when I reach back, which encourages me to xfer my weight by the time I pick in.

FWIW to anyone.

russiet

12-21-2005, 07:52 PM

I feel the same way about the 1/2 flip (luv it!) vs. toe-loop (hate that :evil: !!!) I'm almost ready to do a full flip but I just hate the toe-loop.

I told my instructor last night that I wanted to get a good toe loop. He had me practicing Mazurkas. Really reaching to way inside of the arc with the picking foot. It's helping me get better at vaulting off of the pick.

doubletoe

12-22-2005, 12:40 PM

I have multiple probs in this jump. The worst is the lack of weight xfer to R side. Though I can do a loop fairly well. It doesn't seem to help me in the flip. The probs begin with no weight xfer, plus a strong check, essentially stopping the jump, THEN trying to jump from that point. And dragging my free foot toe pick on what little pull back I have.

If you aren't getting enough weight transferred onto your picking foot and you also find that your free foot toe pick is dragging and scraping, you are probably leaning forward instead of pulling your torso back on the entrance edge (achieved by arching your back and pulling your shoulders back).

e-skater

12-22-2005, 04:21 PM

If you aren't getting enough weight transferred onto your picking foot and you also find that your free foot toe pick is dragging and scraping, you are probably leaning forward instead of pulling your torso back on the entrance edge (achieved by arching your back and pulling your shoulders back).

Question....have you been talking to my coach? :twisted: Thanks for the tips.....hmmm, where have I heard that before?! ;)

I think my technique is improving, very slowly. The few I got the other day were better than before. But then I lose it again. For days. :evil: For all the reasons you mention.

doubletoe

12-22-2005, 11:36 PM

Question....have you been talking to my coach? :twisted: Thanks for the tips.....hmmm, where have I heard that before?! ;)

I think my technique is improving, very slowly. The few I got the other day were better than before. But then I lose it again. For days. :evil: For all the reasons you mention.

LOL! I think it's very psychological. When you are afraid of a jump, your torso pulls away from in instead of reaching toward it. On an axel, that means the torso leans back because you're approaching it forward, but on a flip and a lutz, it means you lean forward, since you're approaching it backward. All I can tell you is that on the flip and lutz, you want to feel like your entire body is trying to reach backward like a big magnet is pulling you back. You need to embrace the backward momentum, so to speak. Oh, speed helps. And trust. And confidence. ;)

sunshinepointe

12-23-2005, 10:45 AM

^ This is so true...one day I had a total brain fart and I could NOT do a lutz, even cheated. Then he asked why I was leaning so far away from the jump and I didn't have an answer other than "fear". Once I realized what I was doing, I made the correction and the lutz was back. Imagine that!

2salch0w

12-25-2005, 09:04 PM

I've always found that the key to learning the flip is to do the half flip correctly, which IMO, is the method where you land forward on your usual landing foot. So for CCW jumpers, pick in with right toe, turn half rotation, land forward on right toe pick, then step to LFO edge.

When you do this enough times, get the feel of using your arms for the right amount of height, and learn to lift the free knee and cross the foot in front, then you are *so* close to the real thing.

Tim

mdvask8r

12-25-2005, 09:25 PM

I've always found that the key to learning the flip is to do the half flip correctly, which IMO, is the method where you land forward on your usual landing foot . . .
YES!! So glad to hear someone else uses this "correct" half-flip. Makes SO much more sense to me!

doubletoe

12-26-2005, 04:50 PM

YES!! So glad to hear someone else uses this "correct" half-flip. Makes SO much more sense to me!

That makes total sense, as far as learning to keep the weight over the right hip. I wonder why we are all taught the half flip landing forward on the left toe? Is it for the purpose of working up to the split jump?

e-skater

12-26-2005, 06:33 PM

That makes total sense, as far as learning to keep the weight over the right hip. I wonder why we are all taught the half flip landing forward on the left toe? Is it for the purpose of working up to the split jump?

Hmmm, trying to understand how to do a 1/2 flip the above way....I have never done that. I'll ask my coach if I can remember.....

I was taught the 1/2 flip landing forward on L toe, then pushing to RFI edge. Which I have found of absolutely NO HELP with the "real" flip. Oh, and Doubletoe, I thought of you today (in addition to keeping my coach's words in my head). I landed three flips in a row. They weren't great, but it's an improvement for me over what I was doing. I was thinking "magnet, magnet, magnet" :lol: :lol:

I was told it is to work up to a split jump (oh, right......not for me :P in this lifetime!).

doubletoe

12-26-2005, 06:55 PM

Hmmm, trying to understand how to do a 1/2 flip the above way....I have never done that. I'll ask my coach if I can remember.....

I was taught the 1/2 flip landing forward on L toe, then pushing to RFI edge. Which I have found of absolutely NO HELP with the "real" flip. Oh, and Doubletoe, I thought of you today (in addition to keeping my coach's words in my head). I landed three flips in a row. They weren't great, but it's an improvement for me over what I was doing. I was thinking "magnet, magnet, magnet" :lol: :lol:

I was told it is to work up to a split jump (oh, right......not for me :P in this lifetime!).

Hey, that's great about your flips! But don't count out the split jump. It's all a matter of timing and technique; you can get a good-looking split jump even if you can't do the splits. (I'm proof!).

Oh, as for the right toe landing on the 1/2 flip, have you ever done a ballet jump? It's basically a ballet jump on the right toe instead of the left, i.e., you pick with the right toe facing backwards, do a little 1/2-turn hop onto the same toe facing forwards, then push off onto the left forward outside edge. The point is to jump up, not forward, and to stay over the right side instead of switching your weight over to the left side in the air. But having said that, most of us never actually learned it so it's clearly possible to land a fully-rotated flip without it. ;)

slusher

12-26-2005, 07:49 PM

I have flip issues, it's a jump that take about five or six tries before they click. Then I mess them up by trying to do them at more speed.

In my progression the things I think about on each try are:

3 turn, do the turn, check and hold, (which is why doing them on a line works, to make sure you hold) build the power and start to....

Bend my non-picking knee. Bend it more. Bend the ankle too. This makes me pick back further with the other leg.

Arm. oh yeah, there's arms. Make sure my arm is back in line with my glide, other arm in front, the back arm HAS to come across.

Bend-pick-arms are my mental words for the flip.

What starts to blow apart when I do them faster is the check on the 3 turn, and getting down enough fast enough to get my leg back FAR for the pick. So mostly I cheatrotate and kick myself in the foot a lot. Sigh. Get up, do it again.

e-skater

12-26-2005, 08:08 PM

Oh, as for the right toe landing on the 1/2 flip, have you ever done a ballet jump? It's basically a ballet jump on the right toe instead of the left, i.e., you pick with the right toe facing backwards, do a little 1/2-turn hop onto the same toe facing forwards, then push off onto the left forward outside edge. The point is to jump up, not forward, and to stay over the right side instead of switching your weight over to the left side in the air. But having said that, most of us never actually learned it so it's clearly possible to land a fully-rotated flip without it. ;)
Yes, yes! I love ballet jumps! And, I was messing around on the floor after I posted, trying to understand this other version of the 1/2 flip, and I kinda thought it *was* like a ballet jump, so I wasn't too far off! I'll have to try this as a practice item (the "correct 1/2 flip") and see if it translates for me.....great explanation, thank you. :bow: :)