ice dance frustration

[litigator]

ok, so I haven't been around in a long while, ha ha, but I needed to vent/question somewhere...this is long winded and full of frustration.... :frus: :frus: :evil:

I'm back after venting in spring, or was it summer...you all told me there was nothing but trouble coming and boy you were right....

I think what I am angriest about is that the experience so far was less than positive after the initial beginning....and I feel like she (and, realistically, we) were robbed of the whole comraderie of doing this together, and also for us, it would be being with another family working together...

Certainly other families with dancers were very supportive, friendly and complementary....

so, the coaches have pushed really hard on stuff, ie working on posture, technical, etc. the boy is supposedly serious about Canadians (both are very young teens) coaches paid lots of attention to stroking, etc and not a lot on dances at this point goal was supposed to be doing provincials event. we're ok with technical we wanted long term.

coaches aren't sure that our daughter has the personality for dance, she is very easygoing happy go lucky do whatever she is asked-in anything, or at least tries to. she had no partnership experience prior, he only had a year-at the low level of dance. But she loves it, they agree she loves it, but they arent sure that she yet understands the commitment required to truly say she is serious too. they say generally anyway, not just in dance, but otherwise, they find her hard to read (actually, I think the male finds her harder to read)....

(in my discussion with her, and we brought in a friend of ours, another discipline, studying sports psychology, who is an Olympic hopeful for 2006) has met with her and says that she is serious about wanting to go high in the sport-but with her age, and personality, just hasn't figured out how to show/articulate it yet-ie she loves what she does.-we brought this person in because we didn't want her just to tell the coaches and us, perhaps,what she thought we wanted to hear)

heres the problem-boy is supposedly serious-I'm not convinced, but the coaches think he might be serious, or he is getting pushed hard from home which is making him serious, well anyway, his personality is different-he can be moody, well no one is sure that is personality doesn't come from mom,but he supposedly wants to do Canadians, and his family is limited resources -ie they are old, their age is a factor, ie retirement, etc is sooner rather than later. they were just very candid about this now.

anyway they decided they want a new partner who is more "serious", or rather, as they put it, more "sectionals ready" because their time is limited and they want him to get to Canadians. Does everyone get to Canadians or something??? his mom has compared him to the dancers from sectionals and she thinks he is as good or better than some of the male dancers there (I think he has a ways to go)...but anyway, I think thats presumptuous of her anyhow....mom thinks he is above doing provincials....(ours is his second partner they kept only one year)

anyway, wasn't like we didn't want to get rid of them, because of the way mom behaves-always negative.about everything. everything in life also-she is just negative person.

the straw that broke the camels back and made us really put our foot down was they went to the coaches behind our back and told them their decision was not to do provincials. we said provincials or we are over right now. the decision was not made as a team, and I was horrified....(we already bought the fabric for this dress and it was hard to find-his mom knew that) so eventual decision with coaches made to do provincials and carnival and then be over....provincials is logical because they are seen by their section, and others, which would seem to me to be a "coming out". all the practice in the world does not matter if you don't get out there. and his mom felt they were not ready, just had not earned it...hmmm... our philosophy is you earn it every time you work on the ice...

I told her felt like she was deliberately punishing my child that if we didn't get out there, she'd have no competitive experience.

So we told mom off right in front of coaches for being manipulative,sneaky, disrespectful and I can't remember what else...but told her sneaky knowing how we felt about provincials, etc. kids got to decide whether to do, or not, and turns out after the coaches talk to the kid over 40 minutes, the poor boy has no idea what he thinks about anything....the kids get along (mostly-except for when he takes out on her what he heard at home) and he is totally confused and has no idea about what he wants...

coach just says philosophies are too different, personalities too different, even though the kids are pretty good with each other...coach's role not to be a mediator and they feel like that right now--too much aggravation---the pair is at about 50% of where they'd like them to be.... his mom says kid does not like repetition---umm isn't that dance???

we were never involved really in what she did till this partnership came along-we are pretty laizzez faire about skating, if she likes it if she is happy, then we are happy....if not, then we are not....skating is just not our thing...but as the last few months came on, I felt we had to be aggressive in the face of mother blaming ours and got a little more forceful....had to find myself calling coaches because of things going on, mainly because the mother wouldn't listen to me and then sit and complain loudly in front of others (while apparently his mom was calling them to complain about x, y and z.) no comraderie between families at all....

my husband hates her after all summer listening to her run down my daughter by mouth...he is convinced there is something wrong with her....no one is that negative about life all the time....

ok, aside from venting---Am I being naiive here to think that this family is unreasonable-ie some sort of fast track to Canadians??? Or is there something I am missing??? :frus:

I didn't think it worked like that. thought it was over time, being together, working on the stroking, edges,etc, etc-very particular ethic...etc..so thats why time on edges, technical and not dances. coaches said looking at long term, and their future not just together but so they could go on... :frus:

the other family wouldn't even do a ballroom couples class though we offered to pay for it a few months back (coaches don't know about that one)...or even give my child congrats after coming to watch her pass two interpretive tests ... 8O

aside from all this frustration/angst, if there is such a "sectionals" ready, girl out there-ie faster to get to Canadians-wouldn't she be taken? I mean, also, my child is small for age, so is he-and she is small weight wise, great for lifts too...


so we know how rare the boys are, and she loves dance-more than I thought she would, and she put up with more than I thought she was capable of, and made more changes in her skating than I thought she would be willing to....so, anyone think she'll ever find a partner again or should we just really downplay her expectations of doing this again now??? :roll: :giveup: :evil:

[phoenix]

Sorry this has been such an ongoing nightmare for you.

I'm a little confused as to the outcome--have they broken up now, or are they going to go ahead & do Provincials & then split up afterwards?

If it can be agreed upon I'd say try to do Provincials for the exposure, but only if they're looking pretty good. You don't want her remembered as part of "that awful team". The coaches are really the ones to make the call as to if they're ready or not. Meanwhile do you have any videos of them skating? I'd try to get something, so you have it on hand as an audition tape for the future.

If they've split up already, then your next move will be your daughter's decision re. whether to continue w/ dance. She might find another partner, she might not. Does she love it enough to continue training seriously without a guarantee of another partner? The better she becomes, the better the likelihood of another partner coming along at some point. Might be a year, might be three.

What level is she working on? You should have her continue with solo competition. Once she starts looking good (& I mean good enough for someone to notice her stand out in a competition), you should start taking her to the bigger competitions; if you can come to Lake Placid, that's the best one for such girls. Also there's the PSA partner tryouts at Nationals--does Canada do something similar? Also list her bio on Icepartnersearch.com (I wouldn't do this yet unless she's getting up there in skill level--no one's going to bother travelling to a girl below intermediate or novice level, IMO)

that's all I can think of for right now. I hope she does continue, and that a better partner will be in her future. Good luck to you all!

[litigator]

they are going to do provincials-coaches ordered it, pretty much, because it was unfair not to have the experience after working so hard, then break up after spring carnival...so that everything looks nice..giggle....

the coaches say they look good-thats how it became the coaches decision to allow the kids to decide-sorry if I wasn't clear...but his mother thinks they don't look good enough to suit her....(and thats where the philosophy thing comes in-we have always thought it was up to the coaches, we pay them as professionals-they know skating-we don't-(I mean, our family)-and they know what they are doing.)

which is why we were so astounded the other family would just decide how the kids looked , and tell the coaches they weren't going. I mean I thought we were all in this together ha ha.

Coaches say there is nothing wrong with them-they do look good according to coaches, will do well at provincials-its just that if the goal is to win and advance to Canadians, well it doesn't happen that fast...and his mother apparently believes otherwise, so, ok...

Our family tends to look at the long term-not just short term gain....they don't. hence, two different approaches.

we don't have lake placid here...but then again, there are apparently some boys coming available..

[Sparkey]

I'm a bit confused. Didn't provincials already happen back in November?

[Tennisany1]

I'm a bit confused. Didn't provincials already happen back in November?

I was thinking the same thing; in fact, the Eastern and Western Challenges are complete as well. Doesn't this mean that all the places at Nationals are now filled?

[litigator]

they are doing provincials, not sectionals. Provincials is the province championships, sectionals goes to nationals...Sectionals is Eastern/Western challenge. the kids are relatively young, so the coaches thought the first trip should be provincials and then go to sectionals next year. Main reason is the coaches wanted to work on all the compulsories and get them ready this year, then spend the summer doing the test and getting the free dance ready for a respectable showing through summer and fall.

We didn't do juvenile sectionals -we could have, but the coaches thought it was better not to, and they explained it was because it seemed like a waste of money when it was more logical to get the training in play--he only had one winter of experience himself-at the preliminary dance level...so the coaches said provincials first, and then we do sectionals (pre-novice it would have been) so that the money and training dollars are well spent--but now it seems like his parents never agreed with this idea to begin with-they apparently really wanted to do sectionals--I hope this helps explain.

and we've discovered many of the younger kids who are at E/W challenge who are going to nationals have been together at least 3-4 years...so we personally think the coaches are right about taking things in perspective...

[mikawendy]

they are doing provincials, not sectionals. Provincials is the province championships, sectionals goes to nationals...Sectionals is Eastern/Western challenge. the kids are relatively young, so the coaches thought the first trip should be provincials and then go to sectionals next year. Main reason is the coaches wanted to work on all the compulsories and get them ready this year, then spend the summer doing the test and getting the free dance ready for a respectable showing through summer and fall.

We didn't do juvenile sectionals -we could have, but the coaches thought it was better not to, and they explained it was because it seemed like a waste of money when it was more logical to get the training in play--he only had one winter of experience himself-at the preliminary dance level...so the coaches said provincials first, and then we do sectionals (pre-novice it would have been) so that the money and training dollars are well spent--but now it seems like his parents never agreed with this idea to begin with-they apparently really wanted to do sectionals--I hope this helps explain.

Sorry, litigator, I still am confused. I don't know much about the Canadian competition structure, but if the other posters are correct in saying that provincials and Eastern/Western challenge have already taken place, then do you mean that the kids ALREADY WENT to provincials this year or that they ARE PLANNING to go to provincials next year? If they went to provincials, how did it go? Was it a good experience for them?

[dglvr]

In canadian figure skating, to qualify for nationals you first have to compete at sectionals. Then, if you place well (top 4, (8 in QC)), you move onto Divisionals (Eastern/Western Chalenge). If you place top 10 (8 in dance/pairs) or top half (wichever is greater) you move on to Jr.Nationals (Juvenile, Pre-Novice, Novice) or to Nationals (Junior, Senior). Also, Juvenile and Senior competitors don't compete at Eastern/Western challenge. They compete at Sectionals and then, if they qualify, Nationals. Hope this helps!!

I still don't understand provincials. This may be a competition only your section offers?!

[Tennisany1]

Wait a minute ... are you talking about a StarSkate competion? Preliminary is a StarSkate classification and they have there own set competitions. It makes sense now.

For those non Canadians, StarSkate is another stream for skaters follows. It is considered a test or noncompetitve route although they have many competitions. I believe the levels start at prepreliminary, preliminary, Jr. bronze, Sr. bronze, silver and gold. I think the Skate Canada web site has a listing but the most useful site I've found for those who are interested in what is in each level is www.mintoskatingclub.com and click on skating programs.

I'm not an expert on this, but I believe many kids make the jump from StarSkate to the competitive stream when they have completed the preliminary level.

[Hydroblade]

Wow this seems very stressful for you and i hope this all works out.

I am a competitive level dancer(junvenile level) that has done dance for 3 years. I have had the same partner for this time and we have had very great succeses.

I would not believe that the difference in personality is not a good factor to determine a pair. Me and my partner a very different people. We both have our seperate lives but we have the same work ethic out on the ice. She very strict and technical where I'm more artistc and creative. These oposite personalities play off each other and make a very co-operative pair that can have very good succes.

Oh for the juvenile dance level I would suggest alot more practise than one year. Me and my partner and on the gold dances in test stream as likewise with many of the competitiors in that event.

I think you could have a good pair but remember that it's still the skaters that are the ones out there it doesn't matter what family things are going on, it's them that are going to make the final decision.

hope this helps