Tracing of loop jump takeoff?

[mikawendy]

What is the tracing of the loop jump takeoff supposed to look like? Is it okay to have a small "check mark" looking thingy at the end of the tracing of the takeoff, or is it supposed to be pure edge?

I've just noticed that some of my loops have this "check mark" on the end, and I hadn't noticed it before. I'm thinking it means I'm prerotating my torso (and thus cheating the rotation by turning too much before leaving the ice, taking off nearly facing forward, rather than staying strongly checked before the takeoff). I've heard that the "hook" into the loop takeoff means that the body does rotate a little before it leaves the ice, but nothing major, maybe 1/8 turn, not more than 1/4.

I'll also be asking my coach about this but was wondering if you all had some insights.

Thanks!

[stardust skies]

What is the tracing of the loop jump takeoff supposed to look like? Is it okay to have a small "check mark" looking thingy at the end of the tracing of the takeoff, or is it supposed to be pure edge?


Not only is it okay to have a check mark, but you're supposed to. That's cause the loop is a pre-rotated jump. You turn on your toepick a little before you take off, that's what that mark is. You'll also see that mark on your salchow. Or at least you should. :) Those are the only two jumps that are okay to pre-rotate. You don't want that mark on your toe, flip, or lutz. I tend to get it on my lutz and my coach goes insane. :oops:

[Casey]

You don't want that mark on your toe, flip, or lutz. I tend to get it on my lutz and my coach goes insane. :oops:
I'm trying to work past that problem on my flip and lutz both - the ones that I've actually managed to do properly (only one good and proper lutz thus far) are when I really lean back onto the picking leg for the takeoff. You get more height then and thus more ability to complete the proper rotation in the air. But that makes it a heck of a lot more scary! I don't know where along the way I developed this subconcious fear from, it needs to go away!!! :evil:

Anyways sorry to butt in on this thread, but do you have any advice for making this easier?

(I also find that, unlike the rest of the single jumps, pulling the arms in on the lutz is actually important if you expect to rotate enough. (and yes, I know you're not working on singles, I just thought I'd toss this in in case anybody else is struggling with the same thing.))

[mikawendy]

Not only is it okay to have a check mark, but you're supposed to. That's cause the loop is a pre-rotated jump. You turn on your toepick a little before you take off, that's what that mark is. You'll also see that mark on your salchow. Or at least you should. :) Those are the only two jumps that are okay to pre-rotate. You don't want that mark on your toe, flip, or lutz. I tend to get it on my lutz and my coach goes insane. :oops:

Okay, thanks for the info, stardust skies. Now here's another question--what if the checkmark is large? That is, the prerotated part right before the takeoff looks much longer on my tracings than I'm used to seeing... I'm wondering if I'm prerotating too much? (Again, I'll ask my coach, too. I was just alarmed to see how large the check marks for my loops were on a recent session.)

[MissIndigo]

I would prerotate my shoulders before my hips way too often when I would attempt this jump, and for some reason it was always hard for me to get the timing of it down. When I noticed the larger checkmark tracings I'd make, it would slow me down also, since I'd have to try to maintain momentum over a larger surface area on my blade and not just do it and try to lift off the toe pick and a cleaner outside edge. The entry would literally be like a skid, not a very secure feeling going backwards for that jump takeoff!

[mikawendy]

I would prerotate my shoulders before my hips way too often when I would attempt this jump, and for some reason it was always hard for me to get the timing of it down. When I noticed the larger checkmark tracings I'd make, it would slow me down also, since I'd have to try to maintain momentum over a larger surface area on my blade and not just do it and try to lift off the toe pick and a cleaner outside edge. The entry would literally be like a skid, not a very secure feeling going backwards for that jump takeoff!

I think this may be what I'm doing--my shoulders getting ahead of my hips. The other problem I've had is my free leg is too much to the outside of the circle, making it difficult to do loop loop sometimes. When my shoulders get ahead and my free leg is too outside the circle, then I'm really in trouble.

MissIndigo, was there anything that helped you stop prerotating the jump? I try to concentrate on the shoulder of the takeoff/landing side, but lately that hasn't been helping.

[stardust skies]

Well to do it right your whole body has to go at the same time..def. don't wanna have your shoulders ahead of your hips. As far as how big a check mark is too big...it's REALLY hard to tell over the internet- I think the best would be to try and tape yourself on video, and compare to other skaters you see. You shouldn't prerotate more than 1/4...I would say that the little curve/check should be between 1 inch to 2 inches...maybe? I've never really thought about it. I think that if your coach says it's okay, and you trust them, then you should be fine.

Casey- The only tip I have to stop the pre-rotation on pick jumps is to find your timing. I had perfect lutz timing for a while but it comes in and out..and right now it's out. You gotta hold your pick out behind you w/ your leg bent and glide with your shoulders checked for a certain amount of time before reaching back further and picking. How much time exactly depends on the right timing for you, and that's for you to find. If you find yours, ask it where mine went. :(

[Skate@Delaware]

I have such a hard time with this jump! Not only am I leaning away from my edge (insecurity issues there), I can't seem to get coordinated enough to bend and push up and rotate, it's frustrating! I do get 1/2 way around....but it isn't a pretty sight 8O

How far down should one be bending before springing up?

How deep of and outside edge should we be on?

Is the free foot off or on the ice? Does that get lifted up first or do both legs act as one?
:frus: :frus: :frus:

[stardust skies]

I have such a hard time with this jump! Not only am I leaning away from my edge (insecurity issues there), I can't seem to get coordinated enough to bend and push up and rotate, it's frustrating! I do get 1/2 way around....but it isn't a pretty sight 8O

How far down should one be bending before springing up?


As far down as you can..


How deep of and outside edge should we be on?

As deep as you can..


Is the free foot off or on the ice? Does that get lifted up first or do both legs act as one?


Free foot on the ice...but there cannot be ANY weight on it...that's the most common mistake. It needs to just be gliding along, but all your weigh needs to be back...don't lean forward/stick your butt out/break at the waist or chest. The free leg kicks up about a millisecond before you jump off the ice, and you should aim to kick it up as high as you can, but only kick UP with the knee bent, don't kick sideways.

Hope I helped. I have a day off today. Nothing to doooooo but be online. :twisted:

[doubletoe]

Something very important to remember on the loop is that the rotation starts at the bottom and works its way up the body. On your takeoff edge, spend the same amount of time on your BO edge as you did on the edge that you were on just before it. Let it curl as you sit down over the takeoff hip with all your weight on your takeoff foot. Assuming you takeoff and land on your right foot, your left arm should be extended in front of the middle of your chest and the middle of your chest should be lined up right over both knees, which are together. Your right arm and shoulder are back, so that your torso is counter rotated slightly to the right. Your left foot is trailing right in front of the right foot on the ice, but with NO weight on it.

As you get ready to take off, sit down a little more, so that you feel your right butt cheek lined up over your right heel. Feel your right heel start to turn out to the right, rotating at the ankle, and then feel the rotation work its way up to your hips, which start to twist counter-clockwise, while your torso and head stay slightly counter-rotated, with your right shoulder still pulled back. Now spring up off your right toe and think about staying backward, facing away from the direction of the jump and staying directly over your right toe in the air. Always keep your torso checked a little to the right until you land. It may feel weird to face backwards the whole time, but you'll never get all the way around if you don't.

[Skate@Delaware]

Thanks for the tips! My coach tries to explain it, but there's no mind/body connection yet. It helps if I really analyze it (to death)....

Some of my errors:
Not bending deep enough
Not being on a deep enough outside edge, because I had no curve, just a straight line :oops:
Not rotating torso enough
Not keeping all of my weight over right leg (I was sort-of but sort-of wasn't working)

Yikes! I hope it doesn't take me a year to get this one (like the salchow-that was a whole year in the making). I was hoping I'd have a breakthrough in my jumps soon.....

I'll print out these tips and work on it when the ice show is over (which is on Sunday). Then my life will be back to normal (for me, anyway).

[N-square]

My coach told me to put my free foot on the right side and in front of my skating foot, but not on the ice.
Lots of people at my rink doing the loop this way - RFI three turn before the loop, and the free foot is slightly lifted in front of the skating foot after the three turn I've only seen people who are doing double loop put their free foot on the ice. 8O 8O

[kittie067]

I can't get the edge right at all, so I can't really help.
But I do My (under rotated! :frus: )loop from an inside three turn.

Good luck!
~kittie

P.S my right foot really hurts around the ball after I've done a lot of loops. Is this normal? I just started them about a month ago.

[techskater]

One more thing about the loop is that you should get both feet on an outside edge (or as close as possible) this will keep your free hip from pre-rotating and opening up and should get you in the correct position as you bend down and spring up

[doubletoe]

My coach told me to put my free foot on the right side and in front of my skating foot, but not on the ice.
Lots of people at my rink doing the loop this way - RFI three turn before the loop, and the free foot is slightly lifted in front of the skating foot after the three turn I've only seen people who are doing double loop put their free foot on the ice. 8O 8O

Yes, when you do it from a RFI 3-turn, it's kind of awkward to put your free foot on the ice. It's more natural to leave the free foot on the ice when you do it from a LFO-3 or a RFI mohawk. Of course yourfree foot is also off the ice when you take off on a loop directly from the landing of another jump.

[mikawendy]

One more thing about the loop is that you should get both feet on an outside edge (or as close as possible) this will keep your free hip from pre-rotating and opening up and should get you in the correct position as you bend down and spring up

Yup, I've heard this, too, and the hard thing is to get both feet on an outside edge yet to have the foot that's trailing in front be to the inside of the circle drawn by the takeoff foot--that is, to not trail it to the outside of the foot and also to not put it on an inside edge inside that circle.

[Casey]

Yup, I've heard this, too, and the hard thing is to get both feet on an outside edge yet to have the foot that's trailing in front be to the inside of the circle drawn by the takeoff foot--that is, to not trail it to the outside of the foot and also to not put it on an inside edge inside that circle.
Oops, I didn't know this! I think that I usually have the forward foot on an inside edge, actually. I'll have to start paying attention to that! One more detail - it's always something! :P :oops:

[NoVa Sk8r]

One more thing about the loop is that you should get both feet on an outside edge (or as close as possible) this will keep your free hip from pre-rotating and opening up and should get you in the correct position as you bend down and spring upWell, it's not possible to have BOTH feet on an outside edge before the jump as you are skating backward. The left boot should be on a back inside edge, with the right boot on a deep right back outside edge before the takeoff.

[techskater]

Totally not true. Every clean double loop I land takes off with the free foot also on an outside edge (leaves the ice before the jumping leg) along with the take off/landing foot. It gets your free leg tight up at the thighs and keeps you from dropping your free hip. I've had a Russian AND British coach tell me the same thing when they were watching me frustrated with not being able to land it. By concentrating on this, my success rate has climbed to 80%+

[jenlyon60]

I think what they are talking about is sort of rocking the left blade (for CCW jumping) from the inside edge to the outside edge (assuming that the left leg/foot is crossed in front and probably "inside" of the circle being made by the RBO) as you deeping the right back outside edge so that the pressure is coming mostly from the RBO but also a bit of "scooping" pressure from the "rocked into LBO"

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[doubletoe]

If the left foot goes onto an outside edge, I would imagine it's because you're letting the left foot cross over the right foot on the ice and turning the left foot/leg out at the same time. You're also on two outside edges when you do back cross rolls and forward cross rolls, so it is clearly possible. Hmm. . .I never even paid attention to what edge my free foot was on on a loop takeoff because I didn't have any weight on it anyway so I figured it couldn't be important. Now maybe I'll take a look, LOL!

[jazzpants]

If the left foot goes onto an outside edge, I would imagine it's because you're letting the left foot cross over the right foot on the ice and turning the left foot/leg out at the same time. You're also on two outside edges when you do back cross rolls and forward cross rolls, so it is clearly possible. Hmm. . .I never even paid attention to what edge my free foot was on on a loop takeoff because I didn't have any weight on it anyway so I figured it couldn't be important. Now maybe I'll take a look, LOL!Me too! I never cared b/c there's no weight on that free foot blade. :lol: I'll ask my coaches too. My coaches never mentioned anything about my free foot on a loop entry other than that I'm supposed to lift the free hip as I'm jumping. :P :lol: (Moot point for me...I'm not even landing those suckers anyway :roll: )

[NoVa Sk8r]

I think what they are talking about is sort of rocking the left blade (for CCW jumping) from the inside edge to the outside edge (assuming that the left leg/foot is crossed in front and probably "inside" of the circle being made by the RBO) as you deeping the right back outside edge so that the pressure is coming mostly from the RBO but also a bit of "scooping" pressure from the "rocked into LBO"

Please correct me if I'm wrong.I understand about the left boot being on an outside edge. I've seen some skaters do this, but they change to the inside edge for the takeoff. The *prep* may involve a LBO edge, but the takeoff does not.
I believe it is Todd Eldredge who uses this technique.

My coach dislikes this technique and has me (after a LFO 3-turn and then onto RBO edge) really concentrate on pushing strong off the RBO edge, essentially avoiding any help from the left boot ("it's just along for the ride" is what many coaches have told me). But now I'm curious as to this "other" technique ... I'll have to remember to ask my coach.

[Terri C]

Yes, when you do it from a RFI 3-turn, it's kind of awkward to put your free foot on the ice.

I use the RFI3 as my loop takeoff on a regular basis and I can tell you, my free foot does not touch the ice!

[e-skater]

I use the RFI3 as my loop takeoff on a regular basis and I can tell you, my free foot does not touch the ice!

I did the loop from RFI3, then from back xovers. I like the back xovers or mohawk entry much better, though I do use the L foot "along for the ride" technique. When I did use the RFI3 entry, my free foot did not touch the ice either!

What I now find myself wondering about is: when you try a waltz / loop, the free foot obviously is not on the ice. You land the waltz with it in front, then do the loop.

Would using the L-foot-on-the-ice technique be a drawback in trying the waltz /loop? I hadn't thought to ask my coach this yet....but will.

I checked my jump print today. I have a very small "check mark" at the takeoff.

[Skate@Delaware]

Well, we worked on the loop tonight and tried it from a two-footed back 3-turn sort of thing, which helped. Then I was able to "twist my feet around each other" (hey, it's a concept thing she's trying to get something in my thick skull).

I will be working a bit on it tomorrow, but not too much, because if I get hurt before the big show, I'm in trouble 8O

[MissIndigo]

I think this may be what I'm doing--my shoulders getting ahead of my hips. The other problem I've had is my free leg is too much to the outside of the circle, making it difficult to do loop loop sometimes. When my shoulders get ahead and my free leg is too outside the circle, then I'm really in trouble.

MissIndigo, was there anything that helped you stop prerotating the jump? I try to concentrate on the shoulder of the takeoff/landing side, but lately that hasn't been helping.

Oops, sorry I didn't see this until today!

To keep myself from prerotating, I had to make a concerted effort to keep my right shoulder back (I am a CCW jumper and spinner.) A lot of my prerotation would come when I would try to draw my arms in to aid rotation in the air, and I had a tendency to swing the right arm around, thus releasing the shoulder, instead of bringing my right arm towards my body such that I would almost fist my own chin! :lol: It would always help to remember to try to "sock it to myself".

[Casey]

Would using the L-foot-on-the-ice technique be a drawback in trying the waltz /loop? I hadn't thought to ask my coach this yet....but will.
I can't imagine how that would be easier.

For me the waltz-loop is harder than any other combo ending in a loop, but that's more because of the waltz aspect of it (never liked waltz combos). Anyhow all I do in any combo is land with the free leg in front instead of behind, and immediately do a loop jump. I would think that putting the free leg back onto the ice would screw the timing and balance up. Also, I would question whether that indicates that you're actually using it to assist the takeoff, which should not be the case.

The easiest combo ending in a loop for me is the toeloop-loop.

I saw a girl at the rink today practicing loops from an entry involving multiple 3-turns, i.e. RFI3, RBO3, RFI3, RBO3, RFI3, loop. At no point did the left foot touch the ice. Those are hard!

[stardust skies]

Oops, I didn't know this! I think that I usually have the forward foot on an inside edge, actually. I'll have to start paying attention to that! One more detail - it's always something! :P :oops:


Don't worry, my forward foot is on an inside edge too (I do loops from backward crossovers though, if you do it from a 3-turn your forward foot should never even touch the ice) and I never have any problems, the loop is my best jump.

If your forward foot's on an outside edge, you're crossing your feet WAYYYY too much..there'd be no way to get a triple out of it ever, and the take off position with both feet on outside edges would look realy ugly. And really, I think, in single jumps and even doubles, you should ask yourself..."could I get a triple out of that?" cause if you couldn't, then the technique can still be improved upon. Triples require near perfect technique, so even if you don't do them, it's always good to ask yourself that.

Ideally, your forward foot's heel should be right in front of your back foot's toe before take off.

PS: If you can do a loop from one 3-turn, it really isn't hard to do it from multiple 3 turns. I used to do that when I learned my double, the momentum you get actually helps.

[techskater]

Interesting you say that the technique must be wrong because both coaches at our rink who suggested it to me and advocate this technique have skaters who land perfect triple loops and both of them used to use this technique themselves. You are not crossed *way* over to do it at all, just enough so that if you do a double, you lift directly from that position and you're free leg is in the correct position in the air. It's a way to keep your hips square but your free hip from inhibiting your rotation.

[doubletoe]

Interesting you say that the technique must be wrong because both coaches at our rink who suggested it to me and advocate this technique have skaters who land perfect triple loops and both of them used to use this technique themselves. You are not crossed *way* over to do it at all, just enough so that if you do a double, you lift directly from that position and you're free leg is in the correct position in the air. It's a way to keep your hips square but your free hip from inhibiting your rotation.

Makes sense. It sounds like you would want the heel of your free foot just to the inside of the toe of the takeoff foot, i.e., your free foot is turned out a little so that when you take off, it pulls into position and you aren't kicking your shin with the heel of your free foot. (I'm picturing a double or triple here).

[e-skater]

I can't imagine how that would be easier.

For me the waltz-loop is harder than any other combo ending in a loop, but that's more because of the waltz aspect of it (never liked waltz combos). Anyhow all I do in any combo is land with the free leg in front instead of behind, and immediately do a loop jump. I would think that putting the free leg back onto the ice would screw the timing and balance up. Also, I would question whether that indicates that you're actually using it to assist the takeoff, which should not be the case.


Casey, wasn't saying (I think I didn't explain myself clearly :roll: ) that I put my L foot back on ice in a waltz / loop combo. I don't. You can't do one that way anyhow, can you??!!! :??

What I was getting at is because I do a single loop with the L foot gliding along technique, I was wondering if that hurts me in doing the combination of waltz / loop.......

I say this because I would think it would be sounder to learn to do a loop with L foot OFF the ice, then it follows it might be easier to do a waltz / loop combo as you are already used to the balance.

I hope this is clearer.
And that it makes more sense.

Sorry for being so vague!

[techskater]

It's all person specific whether it's easier to learn it with it on or off the ice.

[Casey]

Casey, wasn't saying (I think I didn't explain myself clearly :roll: ) that I put my L foot back on ice in a waltz / loop combo. I don't. You can't do one that way anyhow, can you??!!! :??
Oops, sorry I misunderstood, now you see why I thought it was so odd!

What I was getting at is because I do a single loop with the L foot gliding along technique, I was wondering if that hurts me in doing the combination of waltz / loop.......
I doubt it. For me, it was easier to do the loop from a 3-turn entry at first. Simple reason being, when I'd try it with the L food gliding along, I'd cheat the takeoff, putting some of the weight onto the L foot, so it wasn't really a loop. Once I could do loops from the 3-turn entry without the L foot assist, then it didn't take too much longer to learn them properly with the L foot gliding along, but not using it at all. As long as you're truly not using it, then it shouldn't hurt the waltz-loop combo.

I say this because I would think it would be sounder to learn to do a loop with L foot OFF the ice, then it follows it might be easier to do a waltz / loop combo as you are already used to the balance.
Maybe I'm weird, but every jump is easier on ice than off for me, so I've never bothered much with off-ice practice. :P

[stardust skies]

Interesting you say that the technique must be wrong because both coaches at our rink who suggested it to me and advocate this technique have skaters who land perfect triple loops and both of them used to use this technique themselves. You are not crossed *way* over to do it at all, just enough so that if you do a double, you lift directly from that position and you're free leg is in the correct position in the air. It's a way to keep your hips square but your free hip from inhibiting your rotation.

Well, I do it like I said above, so I think it depends on the skater. But maybe the coach is talking more about a feeling or imagery rather than actually having the front foot on an outside edge. I don't know. But I picture people trying it and just getting their body position all out of whack.

As far as using that formula to "get" your leg where it should be...you should be able to get your hips and legs where they should be regardless. How do you expect people to do a triple loop from double three turns (which they need to do now with COP in place) if they can only get their hips and legs in the correct place by putting the front foot on an outside edge? The front foot has NO bearing on your jump or air position at all...it should barely even be touching the ground. You should be able to do loops from backwards with the front foot in the air, for that matter- my coach used to make me do this. I think that if someone is *trying* to get their front foot on an outside edge, they'll put weight on it, and that's the biggest mistake in loops. So I really don't agree with those coaches, but if it works for their students, good for them. I just think it's the kind of advice that has more chances of messing someone up than helping their jumps, especially without a demonstration.

[techskater]

Once you get comfortable with the body alignment (and trust me it gets you to the perfect spot and if the upper body goes early, forget it, so you have to have the timing correct), you can change the entry or make the loop the second jump. I am not at a point with my double loop that I feel I could make it a second jump - yet - but I have excellent single loop combinations as the second jump, it's a matter of body position. You aren't jumping off two feet, either, if that's going to be your next argument.

It isn't "imagery" and you can do it from the backward power three entry, so you've got your IJS points for a variant entry, which is how most of these girls and boys are doing it. Two of them are going to Nationals - one Junior and one Senior and several made it to Sectionals and JN's.

[stardust skies]

Once you get comfortable with the body alignment (and trust me it gets you to the perfect spot and if the upper body goes early, forget it, so you have to have the timing correct), you can change the entry or make the loop the second jump. I am not at a point with my double loop that I feel I could make it a second jump - yet - but I have excellent single loop combinations as the second jump, it's a matter of body position. You aren't jumping off two feet, either, if that's going to be your next argument.

It isn't "imagery" and you can do it from the backward power three entry, so you've got your IJS points for a variant entry, which is how most of these girls and boys are doing it. Two of them are going to Nationals - one Junior and one Senior and several made it to Sectionals and JN's.

What I'm trying to say here is: to each their own. *I* think it's a bad explanation, but if it works for some people, then great. Can't you at least agree that people teach and learn things differently? Maybe your coaches teach that way, but none of mine ever have (and I've had Olympic coaches, which apparently is relevant to you) and I couldn't imagine trying to learn it your way. I don't see how that's so hard to agree on, and move on.

The only thing that actually bothers me about your reply is that although it probably doesn't aim to be that way, I take it as really condescending...as if...these people you're talking to know better than anyone else here because "they're Seniors" or "they've made it to Sectionals". I have made it to Junior Sectionals too and have had a triple loop forever. I don't brag on here, I think it's lame, but if it comes to "credentials", I think I know my triple loops, and really my loops in general- it's my best jump. So I will repeat, it's a matter of the skater. I could never do what you're trying to explain, and I have no problems landing triple loops or, as is apparently important, qualifying out of Regionals. Anyway, I'm done debating this, it isn't useful to anyone. There are two opposing pieces of advice on this thread, take whichever works best for you. :giveup:

[Kristin]

Well, it's not possible to have BOTH feet on an outside edge before the jump as you are skating backward. The left boot should be on a back inside edge, with the right boot on a deep right back outside edge before the takeoff.

Hey Nova, Just to clarify what techskater is talking about, the front/free foot being on a outside edge for the take off is ever-so-slight and just before you go into the jump entrance (at this point you are gliding backwards almost on a flat!). The free leg in the front helps flatten out the entrance which helps you keep control of the jump. It also just helps get your free leg in the right position (in front rather than out to the side). You aren't actually riding a deep outside edge when you are using this technique. It just helps skaters keep control of the entrance to give a cleaner jump in the air (helps prevent free leg out-to-the-side issues).

I have used this technique to help flatten out the entrance for the loop take-off and it helps to prevent taking off from a super-curved deep edge (which will whip the jump around and makes people lose control). It would be nice to get on the ice with you so I could show you this.

Kristin the loop girl (loop is my favorite jump!) :)

[Skate@Delaware]

Hey Nova, Just to clarify what techskater is talking about, the front/free foot being on a outside edge for the take off is ever-so-slight and just before you go into the jump entrance (at this point you are gliding backwards almost on a flat!). The free leg in the front helps flatten out the entrance which helps you keep control of the jump. It also just helps get your free leg in the right position (in front rather than out to the side). You aren't actually riding a deep outside edge when you are using this technique. It just helps skaters keep control of the entrance to give a cleaner jump in the air (helps prevent free leg out-to-the-side issues).

I have used this technique to help flatten out the entrance for the loop take-off and it helps to prevent taking off from a super-curved deep edge (which will whip the jump around and makes people lose control). It would be nice to get on the ice with you so I could show you this.

Kristin the loop girl (loop is my favorite jump!) :)
Hah!!! I have the OPPOSITE problem-too flat an entrance and i'm not on the outside edge AT ALL :frus: :frus: :frus: :frus: (I'm beginning to not like this jump....)

I think it's a "fear of falling over" issue :oops:

[NoVa Sk8r]

Hey Nova, Just to clarify what techskater is talking about, the front/free foot being on a outside edge for the take off is ever-so-slight and just before you go into the jump entrance (at this point you are gliding backwards almost on a flat!).I know what you and others mean. My coach eschews that technique, so I always got the impression that it was just wrong. In reality, I guess she just prefers another technique.

(And Kristin, are you going to AN this year?)

[e-skater]

I doubt it. For me, it was easier to do the loop from a 3-turn entry at first. As long as you're truly not using it, then it shouldn't hurt the waltz-loop combo.


Maybe I'm weird, but every jump is easier on ice than off for me, so I've never bothered much with off-ice practice. :P

Me too, re the RFI three loop entry. That was much easier for me than doing a loop from back xovers. I don't use my L foot at all. There's no weight on it.

As for off ice work, that (again :P ) is not what I was saying. I was saying that maybe a waltz / loop would be easier, if one learned the loop from the RFI, where you do NOT put the L foot gliding along on ice.........Sheesh! I need to get my head examined, as can't explain anything precisely! :roll:

[mikawendy]

I have used this technique to help flatten out the entrance for the loop take-off and it helps to prevent taking off from a super-curved deep edge (which will whip the jump around and makes people lose control). It would be nice to get on the ice with you so I could show you this.

Kristin the loop girl (loop is my favorite jump!) :)

Loop is my favorite jump, too! There's something so satisfying about the feeling of the lift and rotation of that jump.

I think I know what you mean about flattening out the entrance to the jump. When I get too curvy and take off from a very tight small back crossover, my coach tells me I'm flushing the jump down the toilet! :D :D (The smallness of the circle when I do it wrong resembles how the water in a flushing toilet goes into a smaller and smaller circle.)

[kayskate]

Me too, re the RFI three loop entry. That was much easier for me than doing a loop from back xovers. I don't use my L foot at all. There's no weight on it.

As for off ice work, that (again :P ) is not what I was saying. I was saying that maybe a waltz / loop would be easier, if one learned the loop from the RFI, where you do NOT put the L foot gliding along on ice.........Sheesh! I need to get my head examined, as can't explain anything precisely! :roll:

I originally learned the loop from a FI3. I skate CW, so it was a LFI3 for me. IMO, this is the easiest way to learn the balance you need and the turn gives sufficient momentum to complete the single w/o much effort. After I graduated from this, I learned the back xover method. Can't comment on the BO edge discussion. Never thought about it. I think I may have done it though.

For me the key to a decent loop is to skate very fast back xovers or even alternating back xovers down the length of the rink, cut across and jump before you slow down. Once you can do a simple back xover loop, go for speed. This jump is an absolute blast. IMO, skating fast into it and telling yourself "jump now, you chicken" gets results. I also think a loop is one of the easiest jump sto do when skating like a daredevil. It is a rush. For a gal pushing 40, I have a huge powerful single loop.

Kay

Kay

[luna_skater]

The loop and lutz were the toughest jumps for me to learn. I also learned the loop from a RFI3 and then progressed to doing it from back x-overs. It seemed utterly IMPOSSIBLE to do it from x-overs at first. I just couldn't get the timing. It helped me to make a few attempts doing x-overs, then do one from a 3 to get the feeling of the jump back, then try the x-overs again.

Tips that help me with the loop from x-overs:

1. Keeping right arm pressed back.
2. When I go to bring my arms in, I just think of bending my elbows and leaving my shoulders where they are so I don't pre-rotate.
3. Getting my right hip directly underneath me.
4. Bend!
5. Riding the RBO edge as long as possible.
6. Lifting the L knee up quickly to get better pop in the air.
7. Keeping my free (L) leg in front. I don't cross the L foot over, just keep it where I can see it!

[e-skater]

I also learned the loop from a RFI3 and then progressed to doing it from back x-overs. It seemed utterly IMPOSSIBLE to do it from x-overs at first. I just couldn't get the timing.

Tips that help me with the loop from x-overs:

1. Keeping right arm pressed back.

7. Keeping my free (L) leg in front. I don't cross the L foot over, just keep it where I can see it!

I had the same experience during transition from RFI 3 loop entry to back xovers! The timing was just :evil: , and I still lose it sometimes.

I liked your tips. R arm pressed back, and the tension/mini-torque created in the body is what helps me the most.

Also found your tip about free (L) leg interesting. My coach is correcting my on the waltz / loop combination :frus:, and says I am crossing my free (L) leg over too much. In the single loop, I don't do that! :??

[e-skater]

For me the key to a decent loop is to skate very fast back xovers or even alternating back xovers down the length of the rink, cut across and jump before you slow down. Once you can do a simple back xover loop, go for speed. This jump is an absolute blast. IMO, skating fast into it and telling yourself "jump now, you chicken" gets results. I also think a loop is one of the easiest jump sto do when skating like a daredevil. It is a rush. For a gal pushing 40, I have a huge powerful single loop.

Kay

Kay
:lol: :lol: :lol:

How did you know what I tell myself?! Bet I'm not going nearly as fast as you! I keep pushing it though. I think it is actually easier if you enter it with more speed.

[mikawendy]

For me the key to a decent loop is to skate very fast back xovers or even alternating back xovers down the length of the rink, cut across and jump before you slow down. Once you can do a simple back xover loop, go for speed. This jump is an absolute blast. IMO, skating fast into it and telling yourself "jump now, you chicken" gets results. I also think a loop is one of the easiest jump sto do when skating like a daredevil. It is a rush. For a gal pushing 40, I have a huge powerful single loop.

Kay

Kay

I'll have to try that, kay--I followed your suggestion in another thread for doing falling leaf from back crossovers with speed, and boy is that fun! I have a better leg position (though still far from splits) and really pop up into the air when I have decent speed from the crossovers. I'll have to try that with the loop, too!

[Joan]

We had a seminar recently, taught by a PSA masters rated coach. His "tip" for how to practice a way to keep from opening up too much during the loop jump is to touch your nose with your left hand (assuming CCW direction) when your feet leave the ice. Obviously, you don't want to do this during a competition or test! :lol:

[mikawendy]

Joan--that reminds me--I think one time I saw someone do a loop in their program with arms in the "Tano" position. Just like a tano lutz changes the look of the lutz jump, the arm position for that loop made the jump look totally different....

[Bothcoasts]

When I took lessons in Japan, my coach had me go into the loop from a LFI edge to a RFI mohawk, crossing my R-foot behind into the loop preparation. After doing the loop more traditionally in the states--from a RFI 3 at first, then from L back crossovers, the new entrance gave me much greater speed and power.

Lately, I've noticed some of the Japanese women using the same entrance, including Yuka Sato.

[Casey]

Don't worry, my forward foot is on an inside edge too (I do loops from backward crossovers though, if you do it from a 3-turn your forward foot should never even touch the ice) and I never have any problems, the loop is my best jump.
I'm glad you said that, because I did some loops where I was careful to be on two outside edges, and found that though it was possible to do a loop that way, it felt worse and was a lot smaller and hard to fully rotate. As an aside, I had a friend who does do loops using that approach, but that's her highest jump, and she doesn't do them very confidently (really long delay before the jump, and a straight-line entry rather than an arc). I like the approach with the forward foot on an inside edge much better.

I actually paid attention to my jump tracings today, and here's what they looked like. I noticed I have only a very slight hook on the loop, versus a very distinct one on the salchow. Commentary welcome, I'm sure there's something wrong - there's inevitably room for improvement. :P

http://casey.shobe.info/images/Ice%20Skating/2005-12-22-jump_tracings.png

[doubletoe]

When I took lessons in Japan, my coach had me go into the loop from a LFI edge to a RFI mohawk, crossing my R-foot behind into the loop preparation. After doing the loop more traditionally in the states--from a RFI 3 at first, then from L back crossovers, the new entrance gave me much greater speed and power.

Lately, I've noticed some of the Japanese women using the same entrance, including Yuka Sato.


Wow, interesting. Would you explain the right foot crossing behind part? Exactly when do you cross it behind? (Tokoro de, nihonjin desuka?)

[kayskate]

I'll have to try that, kay--I followed your suggestion in another thread for doing falling leaf from back crossovers with speed, and boy is that fun! I have a better leg position (though still far from splits) and really pop up into the air when I have decent speed from the crossovers. I'll have to try that with the loop, too!

Glad to here it is working for you. It's great for the loop too. I would like to try this method to do a tuck loop when I have more ice time. I saw this done a few yrs ago by a young woman who was starting her coaching career. She did a loop and tucked into a back sit position in the air. Really a wonderful stunt!

Kay

[Skate@Delaware]

I'm not able to post a picture like Casey, but when I did my loops before this week, the tracings were very flat. I wasn't getting on the edge at all. So if you can just imagine a straight line, that's my tracing! -------------*

Yesterday, I did manage 2 (out of 5 attempts) good ones, almost full rotations (I'd say they were 80-90% rotated)!! The tracings looked like the one that Casey drew. So, maybe something is finally working. I did a few backspins first, trying to get on the outside edge, then went into the loop from back crossovers ('cause the 3-turn thing doesn't seem to work for me :oops: ). So far, so good!

PS-my salchow tracing doesn't curve in as much before the jump-it's basically a 3-turn with a toepick mark at the end where I jump, then away from it is my landing, which is slightly curved (also with a toepick mark).

[doubletoe]

Yesterday, I did manage 2 (out of 5 attempts) good ones, almost full rotations (I'd say they were 80-90% rotated)!! The tracings looked like the one that Casey drew. So, maybe something is finally working. I did a few backspins first, trying to get on the outside edge, then went into the loop from back crossovers ('cause the 3-turn thing doesn't seem to work for me :oops: ). So far, so good!


I am impressed that you could do a backspin before your loop! I had the hardest time getting my backspin and was doing lutz combinations before I could squeak out 3 revolutions. :p Have you ever tried "changing your mind" just before pulling in on the spin and springing up off your toe instead? It's an instant loop jump, LOL! I consider the back crossover entrance one of the more challenging entrances for the loop.

[sk8pics]

I'm not able to post a picture like Casey, but when I did my loops before this week, the tracings were very flat. I wasn't getting on the edge at all. So if you can just imagine a straight line, that's my tracing! -------------*
...
PS-my salchow tracing doesn't curve in as much before the jump-it's basically a 3-turn with a toepick mark at the end where I jump, then away from it is my landing, which is slightly curved (also with a toepick mark).

My coach tells me you should be on a very deep back outside edge just before you jump for the loop jump. So it sounds like you aren't really on an outside edge, if your tracing is straight. I find it very hard to do but it's coming along.

Your salchow is supposed to have a hook on the end of the tracing. Mine lately is coming around too far into the circle, but that's okay for right now as I'm trying to get over a scarier error. At least you're not having that problem! That salchow tracing that Casey posted above looks pretty perfect to me; sometimes mine look like that, but just not lately! Oh well.

[Skate@Delaware]

I was surprised that I was able to do the backspinny thing-as backspin practice had been pushed to the end of the practice list....but it helps me get onto that outside edge.

Pat, My coach doesn't want a "hook" on my salchow-she says doing that means you're pre-rotating on the ice and she wants most rotation in the air :frus: and a very big "spring" up! She says there is a method to her madness! I think I'm her most challenging student, definitely her first adult one!

Doubletoe, we tried every entrance to the loop, but since I'm 3-turn challenged (at speed), the back x-overs work best. My problem was getting on the outside edge because I've been afraid of falling over :oops: Of course, I'm still sore from my fall on Wednesday, and the bruise looks terrible! Yesterday I was wondering why my left shoulder was so sore, and realized it must have got squished when I fell on my side.

[stardust skies]

http://casey.shobe.info/images/Ice%20Skating/2005-12-22-jump_tracings.png

See this is what I'm talking about. Your tracings are wrong, unless you didn't reproduce them properly on this graphic. You're missing the little "V" at the end of your take-off. At the end of both the salchow and the loop (and no other jumps) right after the arc of your take off, there should be a little V or check mark. Your take off just has the curve and then nothing at the end of the curve...I'm not sure how physically possible it is to do the jumps WITHOUT prerotating and thus without having the little check mark at the end, so perhaps you have it and just forgot to draw it on, but it SHOULD be there. Let me know if you don't know what it's supposed to look like and I will try to explain again.

(Also I'll try to answer your pm tonight. :) )

Ohhh ohhh final thing...The second half of your 3-turn should always be of equal length or longer (preferrably longer) than the first half for the salchow. Meaning you need to spend longer backwards in a checked position before take off. For the loop, I think your entry is too straight. You should glide backwards with both feet straight for a little bit, then as soon as you're ready for take off, curve so you get some momentum and THEN jump. Hope this helps.

[Skate@Delaware]

You're missing the little "V" at the end of your take-off. At the end of both the salchow and the loop (and no other jumps) right after the arc of your take off, there should be a little V or check mark. Your take off just has the curve and then nothing at the end of the curve...I'm not sure how physically possible it is to do the jumps WITHOUT prerotating and thus without having the little check mark at the end, so perhaps you have it and just forgot to draw it on, but it SHOULD be there.
I don't have a "V" on either my loop or my salchow-just a toepick mark :??
Ohhh ohhh final thing...The second half of your 3-turn should always be of equal length or longer (preferrably longer) than the first half for the salchow.
My 3-turn is very even on the salchow, if I remember to C-O-U-N-T B-O-T-H S-I-D-E-S!!! If I get flustered and forget-I can forget the jump even working!

ps-I was at the rink today and a little girl was just working on her loop-she had just started working on it at the beginning of the session. By the end of the session, she had the darn thing, one-foot landing and all..... I was happy for her, sad for me 'cause I feel so retarded :cry:

[doubletoe]

What's the deal with the "little V" and why is it necessary? If you have nothing but a clean toepick mark as you leave the ice and another clean toepick mark as you land, it sounds pretty ideal to me.

[doubletoe]

I was surprised that I was able to do the backspinny thing-as backspin practice had been pushed to the end of the practice list....but it helps me get onto that outside edge.

Pat, My coach doesn't want a "hook" on my salchow-she says doing that means you're pre-rotating on the ice and she wants most rotation in the air :frus: and a very big "spring" up! She says there is a method to her madness! I think I'm her most challenging student, definitely her first adult one!

Doubletoe, we tried every entrance to the loop, but since I'm 3-turn challenged (at speed), the back x-overs work best. My problem was getting on the outside edge because I've been afraid of falling over :oops: Of course, I'm still sore from my fall on Wednesday, and the bruise looks terrible! Yesterday I was wondering why my left shoulder was so sore, and realized it must have got squished when I fell on my side.

Oooh, so sorry about your nasty bruise. :( I hope it's all better soon and that you are bruise free from now on! I don't know if you can do a right inside Ina Bauer or not, but it has become my favorite loop entry because it gives me so much stability and pretty much forces my body into the correct position for takeoff. I am actually using that position to learn my double loop (I'm all the way around now but still can't uncross my free foot and check out).

If you're interested in trying it, here's how: You do a RFI Ina Bauer into a RFI 3-turn, leaving your left foot on the ice the entire time. On the 3-turn, you turn in to face the left foot, so that as you exit onto the RBO edge, which your left foot is lightly resting on the ice right in front of the right foot.

The most stable--and powerful--takeoff position is when you have your right butt cheek over your right heel, your chest over your knees (which are together) and your shoulders level and pulled back a little. If you take off from that position, point your toes on takeoff, and keep your head and shoulders still, you should end up straight in the air and that makes it nearly impossible to have a bad fall.

Well, I can't wait to hear that you are nailing your loop, whatever entrance you use! :)

[luna_skater]

What's the deal with the "little V" and why is it necessary? If you have nothing but a clean toepick mark as you leave the ice and another clean toepick mark as you land, it sounds pretty ideal to me.

The little check mark on the end of the take-off tracing comes from pushing up off the skating foot (and there is a slight pivot as you do this). You get more height than if you just try to use your free leg (either from picking in to the ice, or driving it up in the air) to get height.

[stardust skies]

The little check mark on the end of the take-off tracing comes from pushing up off the skating foot (and there is a slight pivot as you do this). You get more height than if you just try to use your free leg (either from picking in to the ice, or driving it up in the air) to get height.

Right, exactly. You don't really get this drilled into your head much for singles, but for doubles or triples, it becomes really really important. And once you have learned at least your doubles, then you'll do your singles with a checkmark too. As I said, it's the only two jumps that are supposed to have them- it IS prerotation but it is part of the accepted technique, and the check mark also shows that you are holding your check long enough and that you are passing your free leg through correctly before jumping.

You need it if you're ever going to get height. Once you get the feel of it, it'll also make your jump a LOT more reliable.

[doubletoe]

Right, exactly. You don't really get this drilled into your head much for singles, but for doubles or triples, it becomes really really important. And once you have learned at least your doubles, then you'll do your singles with a checkmark too. As I said, it's the only two jumps that are supposed to have them- it IS prerotation but it is part of the accepted technique, and the check mark also shows that you are holding your check long enough and that you are passing your free leg through correctly before jumping.

You need it if you're ever going to get height. Once you get the feel of it, it'll also make your jump a LOT more reliable.

Okay, that makes sense. I'm working on my double loop, so I'll look at my markings and seeing if I'm getting a check mark yet (I'm all the way around, but landing 2-footed with ankles crossed). On the double loop, my coach does tell me to really curl the edge and start the rotation at the foot, so a check mark might be a good indication that I'm doing that. Thanks!

[Skate@Delaware]

Oooh, so sorry about your nasty bruise. :( I hope it's all better soon and that you are bruise free from now on! I don't know if you can do a right inside Ina Bauer or not, but it has become my favorite loop entry because it gives me so much stability and pretty much forces my body into the correct position for takeoff. I am actually using that position to learn my double loop (I'm all the way around now but still can't uncross my free foot and check out).
Thanks, it's still purple and sore, but slowly healing.

I can't do an Ina Bauer (or a spread eagle) at all :cry:

I fell because I went WAY over onto my edge (which was a good thing, if you can believe it) sort of broke the ice (bad pun!) for my fear of falling on that edge.

I forget to keep my shoulders back; and to push UP with my leg(s) when I jump :oops:

[Skate@Delaware]

I worked on loops yesterday.....they were consistent but I wasn't able to gain full rotation. I was on the edge, though. I did have a curved tracing and my more successful attempts (where I got 3/4 rotation) showed a deeper curve.

This is going to go just like my salchow.....nothing for a while, then success. I feel like I'm real close, though.

So, basically, on the go around:

Back crossovers (I only do 2 CCW so I don't get going too fast), right arm pulled back tight left in front, lean over onto right hip while keeping back upright, left foot trails in front slightly, deepen edge of right foot, bend down with right leg and quickly (while trying not to drag left foot onto ice) spring up with legs and bring arms in to the left and look over left shoulder....

did I miss anything? That's a lot to remember in 3 seconds!

[stardust skies]

I worked on loops yesterday.....they were consistent but I wasn't able to gain full rotation. I was on the edge, though. I did have a curved tracing and my more successful attempts (where I got 3/4 rotation) showed a deeper curve.

This is going to go just like my salchow.....nothing for a while, then success. I feel like I'm real close, though.

So, basically, on the go around:

Back crossovers (I only do 2 CCW so I don't get going too fast), right arm pulled back tight left in front, lean over onto right hip while keeping back upright, left foot trails in front slightly, deepen edge of right foot, bend down with right leg and quickly (while trying not to drag left foot onto ice) spring up with legs and bring arms in to the left and look over left shoulder....

did I miss anything? That's a lot to remember in 3 seconds!

Hmmm...well I never look over my left shoulder at take off because it throws me off balance, but I know a lot of people do it so it's just a matter of technique/preference. I don't think you're forgetting anything though!! It really is more about just that feeling of snap in the air at this point. Try doing a lot of backspins to get the feeling of it! It helps immensely as it is pretty much the same movement (at different heights). ;)

[Skate@Delaware]

Hmmm...well I never look over my left shoulder at take off because it throws me off balance, but I know a lot of people do it so it's just a matter of technique/preference. I don't think you're forgetting anything though!! It really is more about just that feeling of snap in the air at this point. Try doing a lot of backspins to get the feeling of it! It helps immensely as it is pretty much the same movement (at different heights). ;)
Thanks! I'm sure once I "get" it it will be one of those ah-ha moments. Until then, I'm in for tons of frustration!!!:) Goes with the sport! It's just hard trying to get my body parts to do what they are supposed to do, at the proper times!

PS- my husband saw my bruise last night when I was changing and he almost had a heart attack! I told him I fell on it again yesterday while catching my heel on a spin....it's back to purple again. I think it put him off a bit. But I got him extreme BMX bike shorts for Christmas, so he should be somewhat safe (mentally at least)!

[flo]

I'm also one who loops with the free foot off the ice. I think it's also because I usually do it from footwork. I learned it from an inside three, so my free foot was never really down. It's pretty good, and my throw loop's reasonably high.

[Skate@Delaware]

I have a 3-turn dysfunction-so it's been really, really hard to get loops that way; not for lack of trying! She switched to crossovers before I got seriously injured.:roll:

[doubletoe]

I've never heard of looking over your left shoulder. . . That seems like it would be counter-productive in that it would make you open up to face forward rather than staying backward over the right hip like a backspin. . .?

[mdvask8r]

Yup, I agree Doubletoe. In fact, whenever I lapse back to my old problem of prerotating my shoulders my coach has me look almost over my RIGHT shoulder during the preparatory edge. Fixes it for me every time.

[Skate@Delaware]

Ok, here is some video of my loop practice last night, however, I might as well have not gone skating....I was tired, with a headache and the girls there were wild on the ice (most weren't even looking where they were going and had to be reminded constantly). It's amazing how fast things fall apart when the director is not there. Oh well, enough excuses. I barely got 1/2 way around last night. Look for Terry's Loops and critique away......please!!! I really, really, want this jump!!!

http://tkahline.sk8rland.com/video/

if it doesn't open for you, save it first, then look at it; I hope it's not choppy....

[Joan]

Skate-at-Delaware - one thing I noticed in your loop video is that your free leg is too much outside the tracing of your skating leg when setting up the jump. It should really be a bit crossed over to the inside of the tracing, or at the very least in front of the skating foot along the same tracing as the skating foot. Others on this thread have talked about getting the free foot crossed over the skating foot and onto an outside edge before the jump, but that is a detail you can worry about later. For now, just get the foot in line or slightly crossed over, but not not necessarily touching the ice upon take-off.

Posting videos is such a good idea - I may have to invest in a digital camcorder and start doing this too!

Joan

[Skate@Delaware]

Thanks Joan! I will try to get that foot over more when I loop today.

You can post a video if you have a non-digital camera, it just takes a bit more transferring to other media.....my camera is a digital8 and has a firewire connector so I can hook it to my computer. the camera was about $300 at walmart last year.

Of course, if you have a friend or neighbor with a digital camera, they can help you out (or a phone that takes video).

[batikat]

I'm no expert and it took me forever to get the loop which doesnt' always work even now but on a quick viewing of your video it looks like one thing is that you are leaning way too far forward. Try thinking about sitting on a chair, then ensure your weight is over your right side and right shoulder over (not forward of) your right hip. Do not crouch forward to spring up - the spring comes entirely from a bent knee - your back should stay ramrod straight. If it helps then glide on a line with weight on right foot, left foot in front, back straight. Check body alignment - hips and shoulders form a box that all move together and stays vertical. Now bend right knee without moving anything else til you are in the 'sitting on a chair position' (think kitchen chair not a lounger!!! :lol: ) Hip, shoulder and foot are in vertical line , knee will be furthest forward part of right side of body - dont' let anything go forward of right knee (except left leg of course!!!!). Now with arms out to sides move hip and shoulder box to right - rotating about vertical axis - so right arm goes behind and left arm will come to front. Stop with left breast(!) over right knee. Now lean back a little more and feel the weight on right outside edge and it starts to curve.

Then as you come over more on your outside edge and are ready to spring up simply bring your right arm (which will be behind you) round and through to your chest (try leaving the left arm more or less where it is - it will naturally come round to the right position). Take care that it is coming up and in and not ending below the level it started (one of my problems). Also look with your head in the direction you are jumping (as you jump, not before) and keep as straight as possible in the air with shoulder over hip.

Not sure if it will help and I'm sure loads of people will tell you a different method but this is what works for me.

[Skate@Delaware]

Looks as though I'll have my work cut out for me today! Thanks, Batikat!

I've got these tips (as well as the others) printed out, ready to roll to the rink now. I'll let you guys know how it turns out!

Provided there aren't 50 million kids today!!!!

[batikat]

Don't go yet! - another quick viewing with my daughter and it shows that you are dropping your left shoulder so that your right arm's shoulder is way higher than left - there's only one way that right arm goes from there and that is down and that is NOT what you want. Keep yoru shoulders level - if anything let the right hand be slightly lower than left so you can bring that hand (make a fist - it helps me) UP and through - if it goes down then so do you and you can't jump.

Stopping the picture at the moment just before you jump shows you leaning forward at almost 45 degrees with left arm dropped and left side forward of both knees. Keep back vertical, shoulders level.

Hope it helps

OOps and spot deliberate mistake above - I meant when you rotate hip and shoulder box that right arm goes behind and left arm in front of course - will edit now :oops:

[NickiT]

As Batikat says, you really need to sit right back on that outside edge. Hey Batikat, wasn't that what I've been telling you these past two years?!!! The more you sit back, the better the jump will be. Another thing I noticed from the video is that you go into it quite slow. We all know speed is a double-edged sword for us adult skaters, but honestly, the faster you go into the loop the bigger and better the jump will be.

Nicki

[batikat]

As Batikat says, you really need to sit right back on that outside edge. Hey Batikat, wasn't that what I've been telling you these past two years?!!! Nicki

:lol: :lol: :lol: Yes it was - and I think I've got that bit now - only took 18 months of sitting on that edge wondering how on earth one moved from there. Now I know the secret to moving from that position is knee bend and weight to outside edge. Oh and waiting for the edge to bring you round before jumping. Jumps class coach (also now moved away) used to make me set up this jump on a line across the rink facing away from the cafe, then start to curve the edge and wait until I was facing the cafe before actually leaving the ice. That took another few months to sink in!



The more you sit back, the better the jump will be. Another thing I noticed from the video is that you go into it quite slow. We all know speed is a double-edged sword for us adult skaters, but honestly, the faster you go into the loop the bigger and better the jump will be.



yes yes but it's scary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I find when I try to increase speed I dont tend to get so far onto outside edge (because it's scary!!!!!) and then of course I slip off the edge and can't jump. Strangely enough practising 3 jump (waltz jump for Americans), loop jump combos are helping. I think becasue the only way you can possibly make the loop work after the 3 jump is to get the weight right over on that outside edge so the centre of gravity is straight through right shoulder and hip. I do have to go slowly into the 3 jump but I concentrate on feeling the weight in the right place and it's makign me more confident on that outside edge because when you do it right - it works!!!! :lol:

[sunshinepointe]

I struggled with the loop, but now I seem to have a handle on it -

The trick for me was going into it with a LOT more speed, really bending for height, and NOT WAITING to jump. I think keeping these things in mind will help you too, in addition to minding your posture in the jump. I wouldn't say the loop is my favorite jump now, but I'm definitely over the awkwardness (I hope) of learning what my body needs to be doing :)

[batikat]

The trick for me was going into it with a LOT more speed, really bending for height, and NOT WAITING to jump. :)

I think perhaps the 'waiting time' depends on how fast you go into the jump - the faster you go into it, then the less you will be 'waiting' as the curve brings you round much faster - there is it seems an optimim point at which to jump and you just have to find this point for the speed you are going. Not easy, and of course you have to adjust your timing when you go faster. when I was 'waiting' a long time I was doing the jump from a dead slow speed and one of my problems was jumping too early.

Now I go into it a bit faster I dont' have to wait so long and my problem now is often jumping too late!!! Just can't win!

Another thing that can help on timing is to have good rhythmic music on in the background :lol:

My coach also gave me an interesting entrance into the jump - a bit like a crossover entrance without crossovers. I do a LFO3 ending with both feet on the ground in loop takeoff position (i.e left foot on tracing line of right foot), then do a curve to left (on LBO /RBI edges) while taking right arm up and over to behind me and then curving back round onto RBO, transfer weight to right side and jump. It always works best when it's in my programme and my music is playing!

[NickiT]

Another thing that can help on timing is to have good rhythmic music on in the background :lol:


Very true. My loop-loop combo in my programme sort of just happens because of the beat in my music. It fits in nicely and generally I find it easier to do that jump to my music than in isolation.

Nicki

[renatele]

ending with both feet on the ground in loop takeoff position (i.e left foot on tracing line of right foot), then do a curve to left (on LBO /RBI edges) while taking right arm up and over to behind me and then curving back round onto RBO, transfer weight to right side and jump.

That's what my coach got me doing as well, and that always puts my weight over the right side. The only difference is, I most often approach loop from BXOs, then do the opposite curve thing.

[Skate@Delaware]

Stopping the picture at the moment just before you jump shows you leaning forward at almost 45 degrees with left arm dropped and left side forward of both knees. Keep back vertical, shoulders level.

I watched the video again (painfully!) and yes, you are right! OMG!! Didn't realize it looked that bad!

Today's session was OVERRUN by a zillion kids, most of the FALLING, but my daughter was able to help a bit with my posture and the sitting back part. I know it sounds weird, but I have a hard time knowing that I'm pitched forward. I don't know if it's a balance thing or postural or what.

Anyway, I ended up riding the entrance, trying to get on the outside edge, while sitting back with my upper body more upright. She said a few times I had it.

It will really need tons more work before anything happens with it. Maybe I'll try some waltz-loop jumps on saturday night (skating in the new year!)

[doubletoe]

:
yes yes but it's scary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I find when I try to increase speed I dont tend to get so far onto outside edge (because it's scary!!!!!) and then of course I slip off the edge and can't jump. Strangely enough practising 3 jump (waltz jump for Americans), loop jump combos are helping. I think becasue the only way you can possibly make the loop work after the 3 jump is to get the weight right over on that outside edge so the centre of gravity is straight through right shoulder and hip. I do have to go slowly into the 3 jump but I concentrate on feeling the weight in the right place and it's makign me more confident on that outside edge because when you do it right - it works!!!! :lol:

The trick to the takeoff position is to have your right butt cheek directly over your right heel, but also to have your chest right over knees (with back arched and shoulders back). The correct chest position will counter-balance the sit-back over the heel and give you a great takeoff. Now when I am on my takeoff edge, I think "Butt, chest" to get me set up right.

[batikat]

I watched the video again (painfully!) and yes, you are right! OMG!! Didn't realize it looked that bad!!)

OOps - hope my comments weren't too harsh!


I know it sounds weird, but I have a hard time knowing that I'm pitched forward. I don't know if it's a balance thing or postural or what.


I think lots of people have the same problem - it's not often we have to get in to that exact position! :lol: Have you tried practising the position off-ice in front of a full length mirror. Stand sideways on to mirror (mirror to your right), place left foot in front of and aligned with, right foot. Transfer all your weight to right foot. Now bend right knee and see how low you can go while still keeping back absolutely vertical - that gives you the feeling in your body for how straight you should be. Now, turning shoulders and hips as one unit, rotate upper body to face the mirror, keeping shoulders level, hands about waist height. You should now be in doubletoes beautifully named ( I love this description :) ) 'Butt, chest' position.

Another thing that may help is to think about tucking the butt under the right shoulder - it's all too easy to think we are getting on an outside edge by sticking the right butt cheek out behind which pitches you forward. Try deliberately sticking that butt cheek out (look in the mirror and see what it does (and how that feels)) and then consciously drawing it in and under and see how your back automatically straightens up and shoulders come level.

Once you have the feel for the position off-ice it should be easier to find it on-ice. Practice the whole jump off-ice too - assume the position, then bend knee further and spring up bringing right arm round and through.

Hope these things help - believe me I tried everything to get this jump and then one day it all suddenly clicked, once I got the take-off position right (but it took me years!).

[Skate@Delaware]

OOps - hope my comments weren't too harsh!
No, sometimes it's reality that's harsh, we just choose not to see it sometimes! I knew I wasn't in the right position, but I didn't watch the video (esp. in slo-mo) closely! Anyway, I'm a big girl and can take the critiques (good and bad).
I think lots of people have the same problem - it's not often we have to get in to that exact position! :lol:
As far as the off-ice stuff-I will really give it a go!!! I'm ready for jump boot-camp at this point! It's really funny, this afternoon I was actually wondering if there was any off-ice stuff that would help...Thanks!!!:!:

I hope that one day I will be able to show you guys a really nice loop!

[Casey]

You can post a video if you have a non-digital camera, it just takes a bit more transferring to other media.....my camera is a digital8 and has a firewire connector so I can hook it to my computer. the camera was about $300 at walmart last year.

Of course, if you have a friend or neighbor with a digital camera, they can help you out (or a phone that takes video).
90% of standard digital cameras on the market will take video - you don't need a bulkier, more expensive camcorder. Oftentimes they have a default limit of 15 or 30 seconds set, but you can change that in the settings of the camera. I spent $150 on a cheap HP digital camera from Office Depot (I don't really recommend HP, I was just buying something cheap and compact).

Phones work too, all of the videos not named high_quality on my site are taken with my phone...but as you can see the quality is very poor compared to the digital camera. It does nicely in a pinch though - I tend to carry my phone with me all the time, and it's handy even just for seeing what you're doing wrong on a bad day. Technology can be great sometimes. :)

[Skate@Delaware]

Phones work too, all of the videos not named high_quality on my site are taken with my phone...but as you can see the quality is very poor compared to the digital camera. It does nicely in a pinch though - I tend to carry my phone with me all the time, and it's handy even just for seeing what you're doing wrong on a bad day. Technology can be great sometimes. :)
My new cell phone only takes 15 seconds of video. Don't know if thats a limitation because I don't have a memory card for it yet or if that's just a software/hardware limitation. Quality is poor also, but it's ok in a pinch, like you said.

[Casey]

My new cell phone only takes 15 seconds of video. Don't know if thats a limitation because I don't have a memory card for it yet or if that's just a software/hardware limitation. Quality is poor also, but it's ok in a pinch, like you said.
Probably there's a setting on it to change the limit from 15 seconds to as much as the amount of memory (whether built-in or on a card) will hold. I have a Nokia 6230 and that's how it was on mine. The setting was buried in there though...

[kayskate]

Ok, here is some video of my loop practice last night, however, I might as well have not gone skating....

http://tkahline.sk8rland.com/video/



Looked at the loop and edges. FO edges look steady and smooth. BIs look hunched over and insecure. IMO, they are the most difficult. How is the quality of your backward skating in general? From what I see in the loop vid, it looks tentative and maybe a little scratchy. Maybe this is just b/c you are uncomfortable w/ the loop. However, if you are uncomfortable w/ the back xovers, you may want to invest more time in them alone. You will find your loop will improve as your back xovers improve. It is hard to do a loop from weak xovers. Strong back edges and knee bend are essential for a good loop. Can you do the loop from FI3? This method is good for ppl who are still strengthening their xovers.

Kay

[Skate@Delaware]

How is the quality of your backward skating in general?
Not as good as I'd like.
From what I see in the loop vid, it looks tentative and maybe a little scratchy.
Yup! Very scratchy! Too much on my toepicks (still)
However, if you are uncomfortable w/ the back xovers, you may want to invest more time in them alone. You will find your loop will improve as your back xovers improve. It is hard to do a loop from weak xovers.
I need to spend more time on them-instead I don't. My private coach wants me to bring my feet closer together after I stroke-a concept I'm having a hard time with. She has been improving my posture-it was all hunched over...for some reason I was looking under my arm instead of over....pitched at the waist.....overall very crappy....
Can you do the loop from FI3? This method is good for ppl who are still strengthening their xovers. Kay
My 3-turns are very weak, esp when you add any kind of speed. This has haunted me on toe-loops.

All of these weaknesses make me glad I got a private coach this year,as I have all these issues to "fix":frus:

[stardust skies]

I really didn't have the courage to read through all these response pages to your video so if I repeat anything anyone has already said...I am sorry. :)

The problem with your loop is that you're trying to take offf from your front foot. What you are doing is gliding backwards okay..although you could afford to sit back further (think of sitting straight onto a chair....right now your torso is leaning forward), but then when it comes time to jump all the weight goes to your front foot, and you scoop sideways with that front foot and then somehow try to jump off the back. The big problem is the sideways scoop...your front foot is forward, then you bend (but you're leaning forward instead of bending DOWN) and then you glide your front foot to the side and try to jump off of it onto the back foot and then try to jump off the back foot and around. The front foot needs to stay *in front* the entire time. Actually, you're not crossing your front foot enough....it should be further in front, and the only place it should go is UP....not at all sideways.

I'm not sure it's the problem, but from the very little I could see...it seems like the girl (your daughter?) giving you advice is showing you to scoop sideways. Maybe she was showing you what you were doing and then telling you it was wrong, in which case she's right...what she is showing you is exactly what you were doing, and it's wrong. But if she's telling you that it is what you should be doing then that's not...good.

Anyway, I hope some of this helped.

PS: The easiest way I think you're going to correct your mistakes and learn to do it properly is to learn it from a 3-turn first...that way your front foot doesn't even touch the ground. Just go into a forward inside 3-turn, pause a second after switching to a back edge (don't spin into it!!!) and then jump. The front foot stays off the ice and crossed the whole time. After you have that securely, you'll know the right feeling and can try it from backwards. You can also try it from backwards crossovers but have your front foot off the ice the whole time. That's a LOT harder though.

[Skate@Delaware]

The girl is my daughter and she was showing me what I was doing wrong (oh, how she loves to do that!). She has a very nice loop herself.

I actually had my weight on my back (right) leg, but everything else is true: my front leg is too far to the side; I'm not sitting back far enough; I'm not on the edge enough....

I did several more attempts on the New Year's Eve skate and one of our young skaters did comment that they were getting better (although they have a long way to go).

And, I've been working on them off-ice. I'm going to do some 3-turn attempts tomorrow also.

I wish I could take all of you to the rink with me!! Of course, it would probably get crowded:) but we would have FUN!

[Hannahclear]

http://tkahline.sk8rland.com/video/

if it doesn't open for you, save it first, then look at it; I hope it's not choppy....

Ok, I just checked out your loop video. The loop is my most favorite jump, so I hope you don't mind another commentator on the issues that may be contributing to the troubles you are having.

1) Your back crossover are very slow and choppy. You don't seem comfortable at all stroking. Is this due to the jump fear or do you find them troublesome in general?

2) Your outside leg is not in the right position for take off. It's drifting out to the side.

3) There isn't any "will" or "power" to make the jump happen. Very tentative.

If I were you, I would suggest:

~Back crossover drills.
~Work on three turns. I never liked doing the loop from a three turn either, but even with the back crossover entrance, you need to be comfortable on that back outside edge, for takeoff. Really, you are doing the motion for a back 3 turn and just launching into the air instead.
~Back scratch spin

If I were you, I would maybe lay off the jump for a couple of weeks and work on other things that will help you land the jump. Maybe do walkthroughs of the technique. You don't seem ready to me to be doing this jump. And you don't want to create problems with faulty muscle memory later because you tried to sorta do the jump in your own way.

Good luck! (and thanks for that skate cleaner recipe, it works great!) :D

[Skate@Delaware]

I'm glad you like the recipe!

I think lately I've been overwhelmed by a lot of things (skating and non-skating) and have tended to get distracted and have had things happen that have affected my confidence in skating (health-wise).

I'm going to focus on the back edges, which I've neglected; adding power and speed to my crossovers (also neglected) both front and back as well as working up speed on those darn pesky 3-turns.

And, I've let my basic waltz jump get very sloppy and slow (it was looking very nice and getting very high for a while).

Luckily, my coach and I have decided to put off testing for a season (thank goodness) so that buys me even more time to get everything right.

Hopefully, after a time, I will get this stupid jump! Meanwhile, all the work continues...
Terese

[e-skater]

[QUOTE=Skate@Delaware]Ok, here is some video of my loop practice last night. Look for Terry's Loops and critique away......please!!! I really, really, want this jump!!!
[QUOTE]

I did, too, and it took me a long time to get it. I began with RFI 3 entry, and as my skating improved, worked up to back xovers.

I'm certainly no expert, but in watching your vid (loved the comments by the way..... :) ), I would suggest that you work on the loop from the RFI 3 entry for a while. I think that entry is easier and might yield more in results with your loop work.

In addition, it appears (as I didn't know if it was just because you knew you were going to try a loop jump, or .....) that your back xovers are slow and tentative. Just my opinion, but I don't think the loop will be helped by that prep. I think speed helps the loop, but that can only come with time and improvement. Just my opinion.

I recommend working on back xovers just on their own, the loop for now from RFI 3 to get more of a feeling for it, as well as work on a backspin. FWIW.

[Bothcoasts]

Wow, interesting. Would you explain the right foot crossing behind part? Exactly when do you cross it behind? (Tokoro de, nihonjin desuka?)

I'm trying to remember exactly how I was taught to do the loop from the RFI mohawk--it's been a few years since I've done a loop from this entrance. Anyway, don't put all of your weight on your left foot when you step backwards in the mohawk. Immediately after stepping onto your left foot, shift your weight backwards onto the right foot. Your right foot should be placed on the ice slightly to the right of your left foot, the same distance as apart for a normal loop jump. As soon as your weight shifts back to the right foot, you should begin to jump. Bend your right knee deeply and start pushing your right foot to the left side.

I hope this explanation helps--describing it in words is difficult! The most important tip for this entrance is that it must be done at a quick pace. You step onto your right foot right after completing your mohawk, and jump immediately thereafter. The preparation into the mohawk can take time, but the mohawk through to the jump shouldn't take long at all.

To answer your question, I'm not Japanese but lived in rural Japan and continued skating while there. It was great! Nihongo ga wakarimasuka?

[doubletoe]

I'm trying to remember exactly how I was taught to do the loop from the RFI mohawk--it's been a few years since I've done a loop from this entrance. Anyway, don't put all of your weight on your left foot when you step backwards in the mohawk. Immediately after stepping onto your left foot, shift your weight backwards onto the right foot. Your right foot should be placed on the ice slightly to the right of your left foot, the same distance as apart for a normal loop jump. As soon as your weight shifts back to the right foot, you should begin to jump. Bend your right knee deeply and start pushing your right foot to the left side.

I hope this explanation helps--describing it in words is difficult! The most important tip for this entrance is that it must be done at a quick pace. You step onto your right foot right after completing your mohawk, and jump immediately thereafter. The preparation into the mohawk can take time, but the mohawk through to the jump shouldn't take long at all.

To answer your question, I'm not Japanese but lived in rural Japan and continued skating while there. It was great! Nihongo ga wakarimasuka?

Okay, it sounds like you are just describing a typical mohawk entry for a loop jump. When you said something about crossing your foot behind in your last post, I thought maybe it was a completely different entrance. Sorry about that.
Hai, nihongo dekimasu. 8 sai kara 18 sai made Kamakura ni sundeimashita. "Amerikan-skuuru" ni itteita kara, yomi-kaki wa chotto nigate dakedo. ;) Nihon no doko ni sundeita no desuka?

[stardust skies]

Okay, it sounds like you are just describing a typical mohawk entry for a loop jump. When you said something about crossing your foot behind in your last post, I thought maybe it was a completely different entrance. Sorry about that.
Hai, nihongo dekimasu. 8 sai kara 18 sai made Kamakura ni sundeimashita. "Amerikan-skuuru" ni itteita kara, yomi-kaki wa chotto nigate dakedo. ;) Nihon no doko ni sundeita no desuka?

Sugoi!!!! :D

[Bothcoasts]

Okay, it sounds like you are just describing a typical mohawk entry for a loop jump. When you said something about crossing your foot behind in your last post, I thought maybe it was a completely different entrance. Sorry about that.
Hai, nihongo dekimasu. 8 sai kara 18 sai made Kamakura ni sundeimashita. "Amerikan-skuuru" ni itteita kara, yomi-kaki wa chotto nigate dakedo. ;) Nihon no doko ni sundeita no desuka?

No worries--I'd never seen a mohawk entry on a loop jump besides being in Japan. It's a cool way to go into the loop, and helped me a bit!

Shikoku no Matsuyama-shi no chikaku ni sundeimashita. Kotoshi wa ryoko- to-shite modoru no de, ureshii desu. :)

[doubletoe]

No worries--I'd never seen a mohawk entry on a loop jump besides being in Japan. It's a cool way to go into the loop, and helped me a bit!

Shikoku no Matsuyama-shi no chikaku ni sundeimashita. Kotoshi wa ryoko- to-shite modoru no de, ureshii desu. :)

:) Me, too, for cherry blossom season at the end of March. I haven't been back for 5 years and figure it's time to go see friends. I'm thinking of taking my skates. . .

[doubletoe]

Sugoi!!!! :D

Stardust Skies. . .you, too? Nihongo dekiru no?