Change in skating style over the years

[aussieskater]

Rather than hijack Kevin Callahan's thread re Getting Serious, I'm starting a new one. I downloaded the video IceDancer2 kindly posted on the Getting Serious thread of Tim Woods skating in 1968 - nearly 40 years ago - and was astonished at the difference between men's skating then and today. For a start, the video was in black and white (!!), and Tim was wearing a suit...and tie...

There seemed to be a *lot* more footwork in the program as a whole, rather than just footwork lines plus lots of crossovers, and the whole thing seemed more controlled (to me at least) than a men's Worlds LP today. I wasn't sitting on the edge of my seat praying he wouldn't fall on his jumps.

Another weird thing I noticed - his skates had practically no heel. They seemed to be the same height as regular men's street shoes.

What did anyone else think? (I apologise to icedancer that I can't re-post the link for people, as my computer security won't let me...and the boss won't let me change that...)

[doubletoe]

Hmm. . . Maybe I'll ask my coach for more detail about that. He was the 1965 & 1967 U.S. champion and 1968 Olympic bronze medalist, and he told me the double axel was the most difficult jump most of the men were doing back then (including him). Of course, they couldn't even qualify for the freestyle competition until they had placed high enough in the Figures, so that's why the only skaters we saw in the championship freestyle competitions were the ones with really secure edges and footwork but not necessarily the most difficult jumps.

[TashaKat]

Personally I'd prefer to see the 'oldies' skate. Although I can appreciate multi-rotational jumps, the beauty in skating for me is the flow, the grace, the edges, the lines, the footwork and the spins. I would much rather see a good, solid programme with double jumps rather than triple+ jumps interspersed with frantic flapping about of arms and legs (that you do, unfortunately, see, even at the higher levels). I know that things have 'moved on' but I'm not sure (for me) that it's for the better.

Give me Dorothy Hamill, Robin Cousins, John Curry, Denise Biellman, Kati Witt etc ANY time.

I remember skating on the ice at Queens with Robin Cousins (only me and him, I was terrified to start with as I'd only just got my loop, he was a darling though so I had NOTHING to worry about). He was *only* doing double jumps but BOY were they solid, there wasn't a moment that I thought *eek* he's not going to land that. The only way that I can think to describe them is that there is such purity about the way he did them. His spins, of course, were awesome. Having seen him in pro competition as well it was the same, I never doubted anything that he was doing.

On a personal level I didn't enjoy figures (yes, we still had a 'figure patch' when I started out) and don't enjoy field moves but I DO appreciate their worth. Oh, and if you think that I don't like jumping after my spiel on edges etc .... jumps are my FAVOURITE, and probably best, thing to do!!!!

[sceptique]

Going even further back.... I watched "Sun Valley Serenade" last weekend - and was shocked to see how "slouchy" Sonja Heine looked on ice! Her spins were amasing, but she skated with such a round back and hardly any extention or turnout on spirals. Maybe it was because of the movie director's "brilliant" idea to put about an inch of water onto the ice to make it reflect the skaters? Who knows!

[flo]

I agree with Tashacat. Sometimes there's so much clutter in the current programs there's little "skating".
I wonder when it will progress (really regress) to more of a "tumbling routine" type program.

[Skate@Delaware]

It seems as though there is a lot of: skate...skate...skate...jump....skate...spin....et c without much expression, artistry, etc. I don't feel moved by of lot of the skater's interpretation of the music. It seems as though they are just skating to the next jump or spin.

We spent a lot of time at my last lesson working on hands....and how they can be used to express you and the music.

[froggy]

I would have to say that michelle kwan definately has style and heart on the ice, while sasha has nice extension and pose she's missing some of that artistry.

[icedancer2]

I thought I'd post the Tim Wood clip for anyone who didn't see it on the other thread:

http://s15.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2TSI5BMVLB4OB1VKAP9JV0RUWU

Enjoy -- I'm not sure that too many people could do the more difficult jumps back in those days. I remember in 1966, we were all excited because Tim was "going to try a triple lutz today!!" We all stood at the boards to watch. I don't remember what the jump was like, but I know that it was a very big deal at the time!

But he definitely had the figures -- I used to have to "patch" across from him a lot, and his figures were BEAUTIFUL!! What control!!

It's true also that Sonja Henie looked funny -- those bend legs and hunched back -- but women were never expected to be athletic at all in those days I think and so she did the best with what she could and she was obviously best at it, because otherwise she would not have won all of those medals!!

I still enjoy skating now, the jumps are incredible, and the footwork is also very good. Variations in spins, etc. -- Wow! But I am still more impressed with a skater with incredible flow (like Matt Savoie's SP at Nationals this year) than anything else.

[doubletoe]

I would have to say that michelle kwan definately has style and heart on the ice, while sasha has nice extension and pose she's missing some of that artistry.

. . . . . 8O

[doubletoe]

[QUOTE=aussieskater]
There seemed to be a *lot* more footwork in the program as a whole, rather than just footwork lines plus lots of crossovers, and the whole thing seemed more controlled (to me at least) than a men's Worlds LP today. I wasn't sitting on the edge of my seat praying he wouldn't fall on his jumps.

Another weird thing I noticed - his skates had practically no heel. They seemed to be the same height as regular men's street shoes.
[QUOTE]

Well, I actually asked my coach about this stuff this morning and he said that yes, skaters back then were much more focused on edges and much less focused on landing difficult jumps. He said a lot of the boots back then did have lower heels, but he wore Harlicks and the heel height on Harlicks has not changed much between then and now.

[MQSeries]

I
It's true also that Sonja Henie looked funny -- those bend legs and hunched back -- but women were never expected to be athletic at all in those days I think and so she did the best with what she could and she was obviously best at it, because otherwise she would not have won all of those medals!!


I wish I could see Henie's Olympic routine. I rented her film "One In A Million" once. Her bag of tricks seemed to consist of running on her toe-picks (Morosov would be proud :) ), sit-spin, wide-swinging axel, and back scratch. I wasn't impressed, but I'm sure those moves were WOW elements back then.

Don Jackson did 3lutz without crossing his legs at all. When he competed at Dick Button's World Pro in the 80s, he did all his double jumps, including the 2axel, with feet uncrossed. Pretty cool looking. I wonder who was the first skater to start crossing his/her legs for the jumps?

[Bracket1]

Hmm. . . Maybe I'll ask my coach for more detail about that. He was the 1965 & 1967 U.S. champion and 1968 Olympic bronze medalist.... .

I think Patrick Pera of France was the Olympic bronze medalist in the 1968 and 1972 Olympics. I don't recall that he ever skated for the US.

[e-skater]

I downloaded the video IceDancer2 kindly posted on the Getting Serious thread of Tim Woods skating in 1968 - nearly 40 years ago - and was astonished at the difference between men's skating then and today.

There seemed to be a *lot* more footwork in the program as a whole, rather than just footwork lines plus lots of crossovers, and the whole thing seemed more controlled (to me at least) than a men's Worlds LP today. I wasn't sitting on the edge of my seat praying he wouldn't fall on his jumps.


It's one thing I'm enjoying about this "CoP" system. There appears to be more skating, though I still find the elite programs of today more blender-like in terms of being frenetic, and squeezing difficult jumps and spins in....rather than footworky (not just straight lines with blender feet) with lots of edges. I prefer seeing the edge work much more than flailing around from jump to jump/spin.

I know exactly what you mean about praying for jump landings. Yep, I most certainly DO pray for my own puny single jumps.... :twisted: , but I like it when I don't have to hope for the elite skaters!

[e-skater]

. . . . . 8O
I'm with ya, doubletoe. 8O to the 3rd power!

[mikawendy]

Don Jackson did 3lutz without crossing his legs at all. When he competed at Dick Button's World Pro in the 80s, he did all his double jumps, including the 2axel, with feet uncrossed. Pretty cool looking. I wonder who was the first skater to start crossing his/her legs for the jumps?

When Don Jackson came to the adult seminar in Aston PA last year, he mentioned how the technique in his day was to not cross the legs.

We also got to see a video of his program at Worlds when he landed the first 3lutz in competition. I noticed that his program had some of the more "unusual" jumps--along with walleys which aren't as rare as some of the other "unusual" jumps, he had an inside axel and jumps out of scratch and sit spins. I can't remember if he had any tucked jumps in that program. It went on forever--that was back when there wasn't a short program, and the free skate was something on the order of nearly 5 minutes long!

He also wowed us on ice with a double salchow done just from a T position to FO3 (no back crossovers to gain speed)!! And he showed us the scratch spin with a jumped exit (instead of push to BO edge), and the way that he did sit change sit (no circular push to start the next spin--he just swapped his feet underneath of him. It was amazing to see him do these things!

[mdvask8r]

. . . I wonder who was the first skater to start crossing his/her legs for the jumps?

I believe the crossed legs originated with the Gus Lussi method.

[NoVa Sk8r]

I think Patrick Pera of France was the Olympic bronze medalist in the 1968 and 1972 Olympics. I don't recall that he ever skated for the US.I guess doubletoe meant that her coach (Gary Visconti) finsihed 3rd in both 1966 and 1967 Worlds. He finished 5th and 4th in '68 and '69 Worlds, respectively, and placed 5th in 1968 Olympics in Grenoble.
(That's enough trivia for today ... 8-) And yeah, Pera captured bronze at '68 and '72 Olympics.)

[blisspix]

What a great video!!! Such a long program in those days! Funny to see people are still using the same music too ;)

I don't know what others think, but to me it seems that anyone who wants to do edges or footwork patterns goes to dance, and those that want to jump stay freestyle. Plus I see a lot of skaters who do dance and freestyle, but still don't put edges in their freestyle programs much. It's a real shame.

Does anyone who follows older competitors more know if edges went out like a dodo as soon as dance became Olympic-eligible? As far as I can tell, edges started falling out of favour in freestyle programs well before compulsories went away.

[techskater]

Edges went out when figures were dumped. The 76, 80, 84, and 88 Olys (and even 92 to a great extent) had programs with strong edgework between jumps and spins and unusual jump entries/spin exits (Toller Cranston, John Curry, Robin Cousins, Scott Hamilton, Brian and Brian, Paul Wylie all come to mind for men when I think about this while Dorothy Hamil, Linda Fratianne, Roz Sumners all come to mind when thinking about ladies). Dance was included in the Olympics in 76 for the first time, I believe.

[nerd_on_ice]

When I click the link I get this message:
"File Transfer: Unavailable
Unfortunately, the link you have clicked is not available. The file has most likely exceeded its allotted bandwidth or has been removed by the original sender or a recipient."

Am I just unlucky?

Must say that just reading your descriptions is making me salivate to learn figures. My coach will show them off for me sometimes--the combination of power & control that she has is mind-boggling.

[icedancer2]

When I click the link I get this message:
"File Transfer: Unavailable
Unfortunately, the link you have clicked is not available. The file has most likely exceeded its allotted bandwidth or has been removed by the original sender or a recipient."

Am I just unlucky?


No -- the file will expire after a certain amount of times downoloaded and/or a certain length of time. I will post it again here:

http://s16.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1YK0G84ATU8SJ0YBO6CCFJ3N3C

For what it's worth, Tim Wood (the guy in the video clip) was also a Gold level dancer (my claim to skating fame is that he took me through my Willow Waltz!). Most of the freestyle skaters at our rink also danced. In fact, Johnny Johns was Dance National Champion one year and Pairs National Champion the next year (also from the same club -- DSC). Dance was definitely big at our club!

Check out the twizzles in Tim's program! I never realized that twizzles were done back then! I had certainly never heard of them, but there they are!

Wow -- figures could help you do twizzles!! Who knew????

(Am I enthusiastic?? Look at all of those exclaimation points!) :oops:

[kayskate]

Thanks for posting the Woods clip. He was a fantastic. Great edges. I appreciate the way he could turn a mazurka and a pivot into beautiful elements. He did a lot of moves that are apparently forgotten. I like the flips that came out forward and the split lutz. Maybe under the CoP system some of these moves will be resurrected as clever in-betweens. Personally, I love a jump that hangs in the air much more than a triple stifled into a corner.

Kay

[SkatingOnClouds]

I don't get to see skating on tv much, but when I do I am disappointed.

Who could forget John Curry's artistry back in '76? Robin Cousens fabulous spins ( '80?)

But the most sublime skating moment for me was an old clip I saw of Peggy Fleming. From a spreadeagle she launched straight into a double axel, from the landing she stepped straight into another spreadeagle.

To me that is the epitomy of skating. Smooth, flowing, the jumps and spins are a part of the whole programme, not the sole purpose.

I love the sheer athleticism of today, just wish it could be better combined with the clean lines and grace of the "olden days"

Karen

[nerd_on_ice]

Wow. Just watched the clip. What an amazing skater! Never looked out-of-control or anxious, and those edges were making me green with envy. I loved his series of walleys--I'm about as likely to master a walley as I am to grow another head but I LOVE that jump.

e-skater, I totally agree with your opinion on the CoP system. I'm glad it is encouraging more footwork, interesting jump entrances and spin positions, etc., but the programs are so frantic and over-crammed with content! And everyone constantly seems to be skating right at the ragged edge of their ability. As others have said, watching Wood's program in the video, I never felt nervous for him. I would rather see today's skaters do simpler and slightly easier programs and skate with enjoyment, conviction, and polish.

icedancer2, how exciting for you to have partnered with such a skilled skater! And I just loved the commentator's (was that the ubiquitous Dick Button?) mention that he was the only "boy" to have lettered in figure skating at his university.

[icedancer2]

icedancer2, how exciting for you to have partnered with such a skilled skater! And I just loved the commentator's (was that the ubiquitous Dick Button?) mention that he was the only "boy" to have lettered in figure skating at his university.

Yeah, that's why it's my skating claim to fame. ;)

And yes that was Dick doing the commentary back in the days when skating was on "Wide World of Sports" and you would get to see the top three in each discipline in the last half-hour of the show.

I also keep this video clip on my computer because in the final frames Tim is standing with his coach Ronnie Baker, who was also my coach for one year. Check out those glasses! :lol:

[nerd_on_ice]

Oh my stars, I should be tarred & feathered for saying "Woods" for "Wood." "Wood" is my last name and I'm constantly making that exact same correction!!!
:oops: :oops: :oops:

I'll just slink away quietly now...

[kayskate]

The Tim Wood clip got me to thinking about the evolution of 3axels. Does anyone know if the video of Vern Taylor's first 3axel is on the net anywhere? Anybody have a clip of it they could post? I am curious what it looked like.

Kay

[icedancer2]

Several of you have asked for a re-post of this skater Tim Wood, so here it is again:

http://s8.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1N2OEO0W80ZEX0Q4BYK6SIHTY

[doubletoe]

Thanks for posting the Woods clip. He was a fantastic. Great edges. I appreciate the way he could turn a mazurka and a pivot into beautiful elements. He did a lot of moves that are apparently forgotten. I like the flips that came out forward and the split lutz. Maybe under the CoP system some of these moves will be resurrected as clever in-betweens. Personally, I love a jump that hangs in the air much more than a triple stifled into a corner.

Kay

Unfortunately, my guess is that jumps like the walley and 1-1/2 flip will be seen less and less, even though they are appreciated as "connecting moves" under the new judging system. The reason is that they are unlisted jumps and therefore have no value under the new system, BUT they require a fair amount of energy, which the skaters are better off reserving for triple jumps at the end of the program (which will get them the value of the triple jump +10%). So I'm expecting to see more footwork and poses (spread eagles, Ina Bauers, etc.) used as connecting moves than unlisted jumps.

[doubletoe]

I guess doubletoe meant that her coach (Gary Visconti) finsihed 3rd in both 1966 and 1967 Worlds. He finished 5th and 4th in '68 and '69 Worlds, respectively, and placed 5th in 1968 Olympics in Grenoble.
(That's enough trivia for today ... 8-) And yeah, Pera captured bronze at '68 and '72 Olympics.)

DUH, you'd think I'd remember my own coach's record a little better, wouldn't ya! LOL! I meant Bronze in '67 Worlds, although he did go to the '68 Olympics. Thanks, NoVa. ;)