PSA allowing Kickbacks? [Archive]

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dbny

11-29-2005, 12:03 PM

I received this email (the bold is mine):

Dear PSA Member,

Check out our new Aircraft Aluminum / 440 Stainless Steel Paramount Skate Blades and Ice Skating Instructional Videos at www.UltimateSkate.com

Our world class videos are now the one and only U.S. Olympic Team Official Licensed Figure Skating Instructional Video Series. Video clip previews are available on our website. Many of you have seen our first volume: Physics on Ice.

It is not difficult to sell the best blades on the market, but we do need to let skaters know we exist. We are now looking for coaches/dealers who would like to partner with us by referring our blades to other skaters. We will be happy to share our profits with you. There is no inventory, no risk involved! You send us an e-mail with the skater’s name/city/club. When the purchase is complete, you receive a check. Investigate our blades before referring. Please see our website for details and testimonials. Feel free to e-mail me for more information.

A short summary of our blades: Our Top-Level blades are made from a one piece Aircraft Aluminum holder and a 440 Stainless Steel runner (8 elements). This material makes our blades lighter and stronger with a 'high-wear' edge that rarely needs sharpening with respect to other blades on the market. Our blades are also all CNC machined to a very high degree of accuracy so that all of them feel exactly alike! Inquire about competitors blades that may be hand made. Hand made is great for leather purses and sofas... but you want your tools to be exact!

Finally, we want you to know what our blades feel like: Our freestyle blades are similar to the Pattern 99, and our Dance Blades are similar to the MK Gold Dance Blade. Our blades are much lighter, stronger, and last longer. Our blades also come in six different colors: Chrome, Pink, Purple, Blue, Black, and White.

I am honored that you took the time to read the above; I know your time is valuable.

Sincerely,

Charles Butler
1998 U.S. Olympian
Founder – Ultimate Skate LLC
www.UltimateSkate.com
E-mail: Charles@UltimateSkate.com
************************************************** ***

Needless to say, I am shocked. At Klingbeil on Sat, I met a young skater whose mother told me she had been in skates pushed by her coach, that had damaged her feet. The mother thought the coach was getting a kickback, but I took that with a grain of salt. No longer.

phoenix

11-29-2005, 12:07 PM

I got the same email today. I assumed that since the membership book includes email addresses, they used it to build a mailing list. My guess is the PSA didn't know about it.

Debbie S

11-29-2005, 01:43 PM

At Klingbeil on Sat, I met a young skater whose mother told me she had been in skates pushed by her coach, that had damaged her feet. The mother thought the coach was getting a kickback, but I took that with a grain of salt. No longer.
Hmmm, here's a question: does the PSA have rules that govern whether coaches can receive kickbacks? Specifically, kickbacks from a pro shop for referring their students there - when the student makes a purchase? I'm not a coach, so beyond the ethics rules posted on the PSA website, I don't know what the PSA requires of its members. I'd be interested to know if this sort of kickback stuff is allowed and goes on - it would explain some things I've seen.

MQSeries

11-29-2005, 04:36 PM

getting off topic here ... but those colored blades are way cool. I would love to get the icy blue one if I was still skating.

I wonder if Charles Butler ever regretted quitting the eligible rank so early. I remember his reason for leaving the sport was that he wanted to concentrate on school and eventually go to medical school. Looks like that plan was derailed/side-tracked somewhere along the way, because he has been teaching skating for the past few years. He's still involved in the sport so the many senior international experiences that he and Jessical Joseph would have gotten would have been a great benefit to his skating career.

But to quote from Forrest Gump: "Life is like a box of chocolate. You never know what you're gonna get" ... unless you buy one of those chocolate boxes that has a listing of exactly what is in each cup :lol:

skaternum

11-30-2005, 09:07 AM

I recall hearing that those blades bend and break like crazy -- that they can't withstand the force of serious jumping ("heavy" doubles and triples) for long. I have no personal experience with them.

On another topic, I know several folks who, while actively coaching or judging, served as retailers for various boot or blade companies. Some were ethical; others were not.

Mrs Redboots

11-30-2005, 10:21 AM

getting off topic here ... but those colored blades are way cool. I would love to get the icy blue one if I was still skating.I looked at them at Adult Nationals - they are weird.... not sure whether I'd care to skate on anything so light. But the colours are super, I would agree!

stardust skies

12-01-2005, 05:04 AM

These are the blades Casey talked about wayyyyy back months ago, aren't they? The ones with the crazy guy who barely spoke English calling him and harrassing him and making all sorts of claims? Did he get bought out by Ultima? I don't see how a reputable company would actually do bussiness with a guy like that.

Personally, I don't like Ultima, but I've seen a few coaches who insist all their skaters wear that brand and nothing but. Now I guess I know why!

Isk8NYC

12-01-2005, 07:09 AM

sk8er1964

12-01-2005, 09:10 AM

Summerkid710

12-01-2005, 03:46 PM

stardust skies

12-01-2005, 04:39 PM

The blades, Paramount, were the ones that Casey was talking about earlier.

The website linked, however, is Ultimate Skates, not Ultima blades.

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. Okay well now this is 100 percent shady. :giveup:

Skate@Delaware

12-01-2005, 04:50 PM

If you want "colored" blades, just take yours to an automotive place that does custom work like chroming and have yours "dipped." Our coach says thats what you can have done. No one at our rink has done it, because the price is a bit high (about $150) but it doesn't harm your blades, you just need to have them sharpened afterwards (because the dipping puts stuff on the bottom also).

Of course, you could also use metal paint and paint them. And we have lots of girls using stickers or rub-off decals on the blades.

Casey

12-01-2005, 07:40 PM

I received that email as well, and I assumed that e-mail was a new Spam message; especially since it had a footing that said "To remove yourself from this mailing list ..." I didn't try it because the email went back to the same company. That just confirms a live email account for them, and junk mailers never let go of email names like that.
That's a horrible misconception. Most of the time, these sorts of unsubscription links do exactly what they say. Even if they don't, you generally don't lose anything by trying, because they already know your mail account is valid - your mail server accepted the message and it never bounced.

On the other hand, if it's an obviously b/s mail claiming to be from one domain (which probably doesn't even exist) with supposed unsubscribe links on a very different domain, those are the ones that are generally worthless.

It's definitely a shady operation - I like how the company claims it's so easy to sell the world's best blades. Obviously they don't have them then because last I heard they were not selling enough, and seeking a large loan to continue operation (proof here: http://504bank.com/OfferingPage.asp?OffNum=1795 ). Oh and supposedly all the top skaters had just started wearing them, like Plushenko. I have yet to see any evidence of that.

Supposedly they are impossible to break or bend, however somebody at my rink bought them and broke off a toepick, and I've heard reports of bent ones as well. Yes, aluminum may be lighter than steel, but I don't really believe their claims that it's stronger for blades as well.

Paramount Skates, Inc. was based in Gurnee, Illinois. Their website now points the visitor to the ultimateskate.com page referenced above, owned by a Charles Butler in Ann Arbor, MI.

According to the state of Illinois, the company is not in good standing, which is surprising:
http://cdsprod.ilsos.net/CorpSearchWeb/CorporationSearchServlet?fileNumber=63921815&sysId=CD&nameType=MST

Quick, get your pair of blades now! Just imagine the collector value after you can't get them anymore! Starting at the low low cost of 10 or 20 times the production cost! :twisted:

Isk8NYC

12-02-2005, 03:00 AM

It depends. I send a weekly skating merchandise related email to all of my customers using special bulk email software. If a customer clicks on the "Remove Me" link, they are out permanently and cannot ever be put back in if they wanted to be. It's a function of the software. Just my $0.02.

You're right, there are valid services, such as TargetX, that manage subscriptions and allow you to legitimately "opt out." I manage a 100,000 name email database that way, and it's wonderful that TargetX keeps track of who's not interested and what ID's aren't valid. It's part of their benefits, which helps keep legitimate senders such as you and me off the junk mailer lists. That wasn't the case with this message, however. To opt out here, you were supposed to send an email to their company with "Unsubscribe" or something in the subject line. Looked too home-grown for me.

I'm sure you, like I, are mailing to customers who asked for your weekly email. This was an unsolicited message from a company that I've never dealt with at all. The message was generic, without even a valid subject line or personalization. That's why I assumed it was junk, and that any effort to get off the list would just confirm activity.

That's a horrible misconception. Most of the time, these sorts of unsubscription links do exactly what they say. Even if they don't, you generally don't lose anything by trying, because they already know your mail account is valid - your mail server accepted the message and it never bounced.

On the other hand, if it's an obviously b/s mail claiming to be from one domain (which probably doesn't even exist) with supposed unsubscribe links on a very different domain, those are the ones that are generally worthless.

Casey, you make a great point. One of the latest phishing scams is a boring email from a well-known company that has links that go to UNRELATED sites. The site addresses may be close to, but not quite the same as, the legit companies. The PHONY unsubscribe link is just a way to gather more information from you to make the resale of your ID and data more valuable to the junk mailers. If the email unsubscribe link doesn't look right, don't use it.

Not using the unsubscribe links in unsolicited junk mail is recommended by the FTC and law enforcement agencies. We're not talking about JC Penney, or Starbucks: companies you know are legitimate. This was a company I never had any dealings with before. Bouncebacks do tell junk mailers that the ID is dead, but they don't really track that too well. It's not a "horrible misconception" -- it's true that junk mailers DO use that unsubscribe link to validate the address, not to get you off. (I read it in one of my IT trade journals.) In fact, most of them have you do the data entry of putting your ID and sometimes more information into their database as a LIVE prospect. The IDs are then more valuable in terms of pricing: "Confirmed Live Addresses" are billed at a higher rate.

A message from the PSA said that Charles is a coach and has a PSA-endorsed product, but that he sent out the message "strictly on his own." He probably used the PSA directory as a source of the names.

CharlieB

12-26-2005, 01:19 PM

Hello guys, I hope you all had a great Holiday Season!

I thought I would respond to a few of your thoughts.

First of all, to address the mass mailing: The e-mail list of all PSA members is available in an electronic format, anyone can access this list.

It is important to understand that this is not a "kickback" operation. We are simply offering commission to those who sell the blades. We use the same sales format that many companies use ---Dell Computer, Intuit, Network 1, GNC, etc...--- My legal team has triple checked everything. No pressure is involved with our sales. We decided to sell through coaches (as well as dealers) so that coaches could increase their income. Why should dealers be the only ones recieving what you call "kickbacks???" Plus, coaches tend to be more educated on what blades are best for their students. I am tired of recommending a pair of boots or blades for my skaters, then have the dealer sell them something else just because it makes them more money... Just 3 weeks before I sent that e-mail, I sat with the head of the PSA for a Dinner. Carol thought it was a great idea to include coaches in the selling process. Of course if they do not like the blades, then they do not refer them.

A Kickback is by definiton: "A return of a percentage of a sum of money already received, typically as a result of pressure, coercion, or a secret agreement. " We are not doing this.

Also, our company looked long and hard at expanding our product line beyond instructional videos. Something which we are constantly selling out of... We could have sold Wilson blades, but the truth is I can't sell a blade that isn't always what it claims to be. Myself, and some of my friends have had troubles with them. They are hand made, and thus their tolerances are not as good as they should be. DON'T Get me wrong, I used and loved my Wilson-MK Blades for years... But it is nice to see a little competition out there to improve the market for consumers. To see what I am talking about, go to a dealer, ask to see a set of Pattern 99's or Gold Seal, then compare the left to the right foot. Not only will the rocker radii differ from the advertised 8ft radius, but the left will differ from the right. I have found the tolerances to very between 5ft-9ft radius. Also, every other pair of hand made blades will differ from the last set. That is why it takes weeks to adjust to a new pair of blades. Our Paramount Blades are all CNC Machined, and Identical. George Knakal, a dealer who sold 4 pairs of blades to 4 Olympians in the 2002 Games agrees with us and he is now selling Paramount Blades. Paramount Blades recieved the Specs from Sid himself.

We have never heard, nor seen any of our blades bend or break. We would challange anyone to send us a blade they broke. Please provide proof if this has happened. We would fix this immediately. Anyhow, I BELIEVE in these blades!!! Even though I could have made more money selling Wilson... Already, after only selling blades for a year, we have a few top skaters and dealers selling them, but as you know with any new product it takes time. We might start selling the Harlick Lightweight Boots as well... Combined with out blades, we can shave off about 8-10lbs off a skater! For many smaller skaters, this increases height in jumps dramatically by losing 10% of the overall weight.

It is true that the old blades designed 30+ years ago have a great track record, but it is also all we know. Like I said, I had only a few problems with my Wilson MKs. Wilson blades have been around forever, it is what we are used to seeing. Since boot technology has changed so much, I think Blade Technology should change also. I am sure that we will meet a lot of resistance to this change as people spread untrue rumors. Anyhow visit www.UltimateSkate.com for more info. The blade runner is made from 440 Stainless Steel on our Top-Level Blade, that means it is a lot stronger than the carbon steel blades everyone one else has. Also, our blades don't rust if you leave your guards on. Because of the High-Wear Steel, you only need to sharpen our 440 SS a few times a year. Our profile and shape is exactly like the Pattern 99, just made out of aerospace materials!

Finally, someone commented about my personal life, so I will reply. I do not regret leaving the competitive skating life. I always planned on going to College... I am so glad I continued my formal education and broadened my vision of the world. I am currently doing research and heading into Medical School. This company Ultimate Skate LLC is one that will hopefully pay my way through school. I am sure you are aware of the enourmous tuition costs!!!

Anyhow, we have seen an enormous increase in sales due to the mass e-mail, and marketing in Skating Magazine. I am aware that I may have offended a few of you. I apologize for that, it is not my intention. I do wish to respect everyone in the skating community.

Also, I am not double checking the above for typos, I am in a rush! But you can always feel free to e-mail me at Charles@UltimateSkate.com with any questions!

Thank You!

Charlie

stardust skies

12-26-2005, 05:39 PM

I love my John Wilson Gold Seal blades, and would rather quit skating that switch to a different blade. I have never had any problems with each pair being different (much less each blade), and I don't know of anyone who actually knows how to skate who takes weeks (or even days...) to adjust to blades if they are the same kind.

I know a lot of top skaters and they wear either Wilson or MK. Regardless, it really doesn't matter what top skaters wear when you're making a personal decision such as blades, so I don't see how that is a selling point. Also, your company has never actually named names. Name some elite skaters that wear the blades, and provide a picture of these blades being worn by these skaters in competition, and then you can make that claim. Until then you're just talking out of you-know-where.

Also, it might be useful to your company if you learned how to spell properly. I imagine that I am at least half your age, I have never gone to college, and yet your spelling errors make me cringe. Not sure how a bussiness expects people to take it seriously if its spokesperson can't even spell correctly.

Finally...let your product do the talking for itself. If your product is truly good, people will want it. No need to keep talking it up, especially by trying to talk down the best blade company in the entire world. Wilson could (and should) sue you for defamation. Thankfully, they have better things to do with their time, like outfitting 80 percent of the Olympic team. :lol:

dbny

12-26-2005, 07:39 PM

Also, it might be useful to your company if you learned how to spell properly. I imagine that I am at least half your age, I have never gone to college, and yet your spelling errors make me cringe. Not sure how a bussiness expects people to take it seriously if its spokesperson can't even spell correctly.

You've made some valid points, IMO. But...

Charles did say he didn't have time to check for typos, and I would think that includes simple editing like spell checking. You might want to watch your spelling as well. It's "business", not "bussiness", which I guess implies similarity to a buss :lol:.

stardust skies

12-27-2005, 02:24 PM

You've made some valid points, IMO. But...

Charles did say he didn't have time to check for typos, and I would think that includes simple editing like spell checking. You might want to watch your spelling as well. It's "business", not "bussiness", which I guess implies similarity to a buss :lol:.

Oh, yeah, I always spell that word incorrectly- sorry. But I'm a girl recently out of high school and not a grown man trying to represent a company. If I were, I'd have someone make spellchecks for me. Or I'd take the time to do it myself- and if I didn't have time then I wouldn't post at all, it would just reflect badly upon the company.

Also, there is a difference between typos and errors. My "business" thing was an error- not a typo. When someone spells "challange" and not "challenge", that's clearly an error, not a typo. There was another glaring mistake that I saw while reading, but I can't remember what it was, and I don't feel like going back to find it. But it was similar. You can see when something is a typo and when something is an error, IMO. A typo will usually involve a neighboring letter, or you'll type one word and mean another (like instead of "word", I just typed "work"). The "e" and the "a" aren't even on the same keyboard line.

Anyway, it doesn't matter much, even if the entire thing had been spelt correctly, I'd still think it very unprofessional to log on and cut down one of the best and most trusted blade companies ever, without any actual evidence or proof behind the claims. I'm just a little disgusted by that type of business practice, and to me his post sounded like every other bogus company that logs onto message boards to inflate and flat out lie about the greatness of their products without any data to back it up.

Thank you for pointing out the thing about "business", I think I'll remember now that someone pointed it out. I appreciate it! :)

dbny

12-27-2005, 07:11 PM

Anyway, it doesn't matter much, even if the entire thing had been spelt correctly, I'd still think it very unprofessional to log on and cut down one of the best and most trusted blade companies ever, without any actual evidence or proof behind the claims. I'm just a little disgusted by that type of business practice, and to me his post sounded like every other bogus company that logs onto message boards to inflate and flat out lie about the greatness of their products without any data to back it up.

Thank you for pointing out the thing about "business", I think I'll remember now that someone pointed it out. I appreciate it! :)

I agree with your observation regarding badmouthing other companies.

I used to have trouble with spelling business too, until I realized that it was just "busy" and "ness" with the "y" becoming an "i". You're such a good sport about having an error pointed out!

phoenix

12-27-2005, 07:36 PM

Anyway, it doesn't matter much, even if the entire thing had been spelt correctly

No such word. Spelled is the correct word you were looking for.

Shall we continue?

CharlieB

12-27-2005, 08:44 PM

Let me make it clear that I think Wilson/MK produces wonderful blades!!! However, I am mad that SOME of the blades they sell are NOT up to their own specs. This is no secret, many dealers are aware of this. When I spend $500 on a blade, I want all of my blades to be up to specs.

Finally, there is nothing wrong with comparing products. How else would one educate the consumer? Sure, everyone tries to make it sound like their product walks on water... but who doesn't?

Finally, I got into this whole business with the blades only because I thought it would be healthy for the skating world to see some new inovative and competitive products out there. Why not challenge the other companies in a healthy competitive manner!

Thank you for your time!

Again, I have no time to edit typos, but feel free to correct me ;)

Charlie

stardust skies

12-27-2005, 09:01 PM

I agree with your observation regarding badmouthing other companies.

I used to have trouble with spelling business too, until I realized that it was just "busy" and "ness" with the "y" becoming an "i". You're such a good sport about having an error pointed out!

I like knowing when I'm wrong. Nothing offensive about pointing out errors, imo. :)

stardust skies

12-27-2005, 09:11 PM

No such word. Spelled is the correct word you were looking for.

Shall we continue?

http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/SPELL
Look at the bottom, in both "verb" and "derivative forms". "Spelt" is there, along with "spelled".

http://www.m-w.com/
Here is the Merriam-Webster dictionary, another link that uses "spelt" as the past version of "spell" (you have to enter the term "spelt" in the query and then click on the second definition):

Also, whether you agree that "spelt" is a derivative of "spell" or not, it IS a word regardless (you said it's not a word at all), it's actually a form of wheat:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmore&defl=en&q=define:spelt

And yes, you can continue if you so please. I like knowing when I make spelling/grammatical errors because I am incredibly anal about them, but I also know when I am right. I think that for things such as "spelled" vs "spelt", it is simply a matter of where you live/what people use around you. "Spelled" is more common, but "spelt" is not incorrect.

Mrs Redboots

12-28-2005, 06:16 AM

No such word. Spelled is the correct word you were looking for.

Shall we continue?Er - I think that may depend on which side of the Atlantic you are, since in the UK, the correct past participle is "spelt".

samba

12-28-2005, 06:58 AM

Maybee won day yu willl al bee as gud a spelin as wot I am.

Joan

12-28-2005, 07:28 AM

Maybee won day yu willl al bee as gud a spelin as wot I am.

LOL! Thank you for bringing this back from the edge!

samba

12-28-2005, 08:42 AM

LOL! Thank you for bringing this back from the edge!
My pleasure Joan, love your Oscar Wilde catch-phrase, must remember that one next time my son treats to me as though I know nothing.

Cheers
Grace

stardust skies

12-28-2005, 01:17 PM

Did any of you ever read that letter that was going around some time back? I think it was from a Harvard story (I could be wrong), and every word only had the first and last letter placed correctly and all the letters in the middle were jumbled, but you could still read it perfectly. It was a study to prove that the human brain doesn't read every single letter but only the first and last letter to process a word. I thought it was amazing.

Casey

12-28-2005, 07:11 PM

http://www.m-w.com/
Here is the Merriam-Webster dictionary, another link that uses "spelt" as the past version of "spell" (you have to enter the term "spelt" in the query and then click on the second definition)
Or just click here (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?hdwd=spelt&listword=spelt&book=Dictionary&jump=spelt%5B2%5D&list=spelt%5B1%2Cnoun%5D%3D1040688%3Bspelt%5B2%5D% 3D1040706) ;)