Getting Serious

[Kevin Callahan]

Yo, all.

It's been a hard couple of months, and I haven't gotten much done. Between service and school, I haven't had much time to skate. But I recently said goodbye to the US Navy and am on my own time. In about three weeks I will start with a coach whose son is the current British National Champion. I will have plenty of time, and a fulltime job to pay for lessons (and student loans >_>).

I was able to skate 12 hours this past week because of the holidays. I figured out how to do a shakey waltz jump on my own that I can duplicate many times in a row. That's quite an accomplishment, I think, for a skater without one single figure skating lesson. But even better, through a couple of tips from other skaters, I was able to land an axle (although I can't even remember the order of steps, let alone repeat it!). Unfortunately, it attracted the attention of the skate guard who came over and told me I couldn't do jumps during public skate. Suffice to say, I was... displeased.

It was then that I figured it was time to get serious. I'm going to need ice time not dictated by the likes of bored high schoolers, small children, and adults in rental skates. And so I am. Just figured y'all would appreciate the progress.

[samba]

I figured out how to do a shakey waltz jump on my own that I can duplicate many times in a row. That's quite an accomplishment, I think, for a skater without one single figure skating lesson. But even better, through a couple of tips from other skaters, I was able to land an axle (although I can't even remember the order of steps, let alone repeat it!). Unfortunately, it attracted the attention of the skate guard who came over and told me I couldn't do jumps during public skate. Suffice to say, I was... displeased.

An axel...without ever having a single lesson??? 8O Are you sure that's what it was?

It was then that I figured it was time to get serious. I'm going to need ice time not dictated by the likes of bored high schoolers, small children, and adults in rental skates. And so I am. Just figured y'all would appreciate the progress.


Well yes you will certainly need private ice time if you are as good as that. Do let us know how your lesson goes and what your coach thinks of your axel.


Good Luck
Grace

[Mrs Redboots]

In about three weeks I will start with a coach whose son is the current British National Champion. Er - are you sure? As far as I know, John's parents still live in this country (I know that he & his girlfriend are still agonising which set of parents to spend Christmas Day with!).

Whatever, I hope you enjoy your skating!

[Kevin Callahan]

An axel...without ever having a single lesson??? 8O Are you sure that's what it was?

Certain? No. I suppose I could have been lied to by the other skaters. But the individual who gave me the most tips that allowed me to do it was 31, so I doubt she was interested in psyching me out by lying about my skill. Honestly, though, I don't know. As I said, I only know it was a) a jump and b) serious enough to attract the skate guard's attention.

Er - are you sure? As far as I know, John's parents still live in this country (I know that he & his girlfriend are still agonising which set of parents to spend Christmas Day with!).

Whatever, I hope you enjoy your skating!

You'll have to forgive me for my lack of clarity. I don't know what the brackets are for the British National Championionships. I'm refering to Luke Chilcott. I'm starting lessons with his father, Tim Chilcott. Definitely British, but here in the states.

[Skate@Delaware]

That really bites not being able to do stuff (especially if hockey boys are whizzing around doing "their" hockey moves :evil: ).....

Hope everything works out for you!

[skaternum]

You'll have to forgive me for my lack of clarity. I don't know what the brackets are for the British National Championionships. I'm refering to Luke Chilcott. I'm starting lessons with his father, Tim Chilcott. Definitely British, but here in the states.Luke is the 2004 Primary Men's champion, which is the British equivilent to our Novice, I think.

[Kevin Callahan]

Righto. He's injured this year, even though he is now at the Junior level. If he wasn't, I wouldn't have a coach, as they would both be in the UK.

[stardust skies]

Certain? No. I suppose I could have been lied to by the other skaters. But the individual who gave me the most tips that allowed me to do it was 31, so I doubt she was interested in psyching me out by lying about my skill. Honestly, though, I don't know. As I said, I only know it was a) a jump and b) serious enough to attract the skate guard's attention.



Well, what did you do? Did you rotate more than once around in the air? Cross your leg over the other? Go from a forward position? If you didn't, it's not an axel (and you'd REMEMBER what you had to do if it was an axel), and I really honestly doubt that anyone could do an axel in that short period a time. I do not think you are lying at ALL, I just think you have a lot of misconceptions about how easy this sport is (or isn't). An axel takes the average person a year to learn. I was an exception, and it still took me 2 months, and that was after having properly learned to skate with coaches. Most people who land axels right away are gymnasts or roller skaters. I think you should take what people tell you on public sessions with a huge grain of salt- some people are knowledgeable, but most are not qualified to teach you anything, if they were, they'd be on the side of the boards, coaching people for money.

Meanwhile, when you say National Champ, of any country, then it's assumed that it's the Senior level. If you're talking about a Novice National champ, you have to say the level in front of it. There's a pretty huge difference between winning Novice Nats. and Senior Nats. For one, Senior Nats. winners are Olympic-bound, not Novices.

PS: Also, since an axel is basically a waltz jump with a loop tacked on in the air, you wouldn't have just "figured out" a "shaky" waltz jump, and then done an axel on the same session. Just talking logistics, here.

[MQSeries]

Well, what did you do? Did you rotate more than once around in the air? Cross your leg over the other? Go from a forward position? If you didn't, it's not an axel (and you'd REMEMBER what you had to do if it was an axel),

You don't have to cross your leg for an axel. Skaters during the Peggy Fleming era didn't cross their legs for the 2axel either.

[TaBalie]

You don't have to cross your leg for an axel. Skaters during the Peggy Fleming era didn't cross their legs for the 2axel either.

This is off the original topic, but I agree. When I skated as a child we used to call it "wrapping" when someone did an axel (or any jumb really) like that.

Anyway, to Kevin--Congratulations for getting on the ice! Keep us updated, and have a blast! :)

[Kevin Callahan]

Well, what did you do? Did you rotate more than once around in the air? Cross your leg over the other? Go from a forward position? If you didn't, it's not an axel (and you'd REMEMBER what you had to do if it was an axel), and I really honestly doubt that anyone could do an axel in that short period a time. I do not think you are lying at ALL, I just think you have a lot of misconceptions about how easy this sport is (or isn't).

I did not rotate more than once, that I can assure you. I probably didn't have enough air for that. I did cross one leg over the other, and I did go from a forward position. And I certainly have misconceptions about the sport. I've only been skating regularly since June, and until now, without a coach. I think it goes without saying that there's a lot I don't know and what I do know is going to be confused, rough, and improper. I'm not going to try to say otherwise, so you don't have to worry about me being a snotty newbie. But I do take skating very seriously, and I do know I've made quite a bit of progress for being entirely on my own.

Meanwhile, when you say National Champ, of any country, then it's assumed that it's the Senior level. If you're talking about a Novice National champ, you have to say the level in front of it. There's a pretty huge difference between winning Novice Nats. and Senior Nats. For one, Senior Nats. winners are Olympic-bound, not Novices.

While I'm sure that's true, I'm only repeating how he was introduced to me, which was as "2004 British National Champion." I don't know enough about levels to have divined what level he was at. His father told me but only in a phone call early this morning, AFTER this post had already been made. I already asked forgiveness for my clarity.

PS: Also, since an axel is basically a waltz jump with a loop tacked on in the air, you wouldn't have just "figured out" a "shaky" waltz jump, and then done an axel on the same session. Just talking logistics, here.

While I certainly believe you, I'd sure like to know what I did. It was certainly no waltz jump. It was higher, took longer, and had more rotation.

[Hannahclear]

If it didn't rotate more than once and rotated more than a waltz jump, then it sounds like it had to be about 3/4 around at most.

There's really no rush to learn an axel. Most people learn toe loop, salchow, loop, flip and lutz first, after they master the waltz jump.

[TaBalie]

Hi Kevin,

I love the website www.skatejournal.com -- it is great to read a journal and watch the journey of this skater (I don't know if she is a member of this board or not--if she is -->Thanks for a great site!)

She has a great section that describes all the basic moves really clearly. Here is a link to the section that describes the various jumps:

http://www.skatejournal.com/jump.html

Do any of them seem familiar? In any case, I like to "study" various moves and jumps long before I actually get there :)

[TashaKat]

(I don't know if she is a member of this board or not--if she is -->Thanks for a great site!)

Yes she is, I think that she's KaySkate (or something similar) now :)

Kevin, it's good that you're taking it seriously now and good that you're getting lessons. As others have said, though, don't be in a hurry to learn too much, too soon. It really is better to get the basics off before moving onto the harder stuff. I would recommend that you also do some dance lessons as free teachers don't tend to concentrate so much on the basics and you can see some truly horrific basic skating on people who are doing double jumps! I did both and it helped me enormously, it's also better for when you come to do your step sequences etc. Getting good basics makes is SO much easier when the time comes to do the more advanced stuff.

Good luck.

[samba]

Hi again Kevin

I would recommend that you also do some dance lessons as free teachers don't tend to concentrate so much on the basics and you can see some truly horrific basic skating on people who are doing double jumps! I did both and it helped me enormously, it's also better for when you come to do your step sequences etc. Getting good basics makes is SO much easier when the time comes to do the more advanced stuff.

Very good advice.

I'm not going to try to say otherwise, so you don't have to worry about me being a snotty newbie. But I do take skating very seriously, and I do know I've made quite a bit of progress for being entirely on my own.

No Kevin you are not a "snotty newbie" when you first start you can only go by what people tell you. You certainly have made good progress and very wise of you to get a coach, bad self taught habits, once ingrained are very hard to get rid of, I think we can all vouch for that.

I think you are certainly ready for the next stage in taking lessons. It will be interesting to hear how you progress, maybe in the future we will hear of your tests and competitons, lets face it, if you have been in the Navy there can't be a lot left to be afraid of, or do spiders still worry you.

Oh and good luck with the new job.

Cheers
Grace

[skaternum]

I did not rotate more than once, that I can assure you.Well, then you didn't do an axel, that I can assure you. :)

Kevin, I know this is hard advice to hear, and I don't mean it to be discouraging. But here it is: slow down. In my experience, you're better off starting with the basics of stroking and turning, and NOT trying to learn jumps from somebody on a session. If you're serious about skating, as you appear to be, start at the beginning and don't try to rush into skills. It usually results in bad habits that can take years to get rid of.

That being said, skating is a totally cool sport, and you're going to love it! I hope you have a lot of success with your coach.

[Mrs Redboots]

Ah yes, sorry for the misunderstanding about the champions.... mind you, we do have a lot of champions here in Britain (and 2 new ones since the start of the week!).... I can go to dance club at Tashakat's old rink and be chatting to at least three Adult champions. Come to that, I'm a British Silver medallist myself - in Adult Elementary Dance! ;)

[Kevin Callahan]

Too many people to actually respond individually to, but I'll tell you about my progress today.

I joined an adult basic class today, and the coach said exactly the same thing as a lot of you have. I have a lot of speed and a fair amount of control, but my technique is horrid. She constantly said "Kevin, you've got it, I know you've got it, but slow down! You're not doing yourself any favor by rushing, because when you do you forget to bend your knees, or keep your back straight, or your arms out. You're making everything harder than it needs to be."

:giveup: Fine. I'll slow down. I'm sure my coach will say the same thing at our next lesson.... Your tips are still appreciated! Anyhow, to be clear on my goal, it is to compete gold level at Adult Nats within the next five years. I think that's doable.

And I am terribly frightened of spiders. And zombies. Especially zombies. :)

[samba]

I hope you enjoyed the lesson despite the criticism but that is what you pay for as long as it's constructive.

In the early days I used to liken my son to a very expensive car, driven by someone who had drunk a little too much, yes you do need to slow down but the speed is not such a bad sign with free skating, it shows you are not too afraid to fall and that is a huge advantage. Most of us get told to speed up, especially the ladies.

As for spiders, he still hates them at the age of 35 and Zombies well he loves a good horror film just the same as I do.

Keep up the good work and when you get that gold we can all say we spoke to you when you took your first lesson.

Cheers
Grace

[stardust skies]

You don't have to cross your leg for an axel. Skaters during the Peggy Fleming era didn't cross their legs for the 2axel either.

Really? I admit that I've never seen a Peggy Fleming tape, or anyone from before my time, but it just seems impossible to me that you could get enough rotation otherwise. Clearly the sport has evolved...I wonder, if someone could still do a double axel without crossing their legs (were they actually side by side?!), would they get deducted somehow? It just seems like by today's standards, it would be incorrect. Guess there's nothing in the rulebook about it though. Interesting. :idea:

[sue123]

Too many people to actually respond individually to, but I'll tell you about my progress today.

I joined an adult basic class today, and the coach said exactly the same thing as a lot of you have. I have a lot of speed and a fair amount of control, but my technique is horrid. She constantly said "Kevin, you've got it, I know you've got it, but slow down! You're not doing yourself any favor by rushing, because when you do you forget to bend your knees, or keep your back straight, or your arms out. You're making everything harder than it needs to be."

:giveup: Fine. I'll slow down. I'm sure my coach will say the same thing at our next lesson.... Your tips are still appreciated! Anyhow, to be clear on my goal, it is to compete gold level at Adult Nats within the next five years. I think that's doable.

And I am terribly frightened of spiders. And zombies. Especially zombies. :)


Sounds like my coach. She keeps telling me to slow down. Only the other day, she kept telling me to speed up, but I was already going as fast as I could. But it really is important to slow down to get proper technique, it's easier to notice what you're doing when you go slow.

[skaternum]

Yes, it's not so much the speed itself that is a problem. It's that your speed is (a) making it harder for you to work on proper technique and (b) potentially masking improper technique. Speed will be good for you later, but right now it's not.

Competing in Gold in 5 years is an ambitious goal for someone who's never skated before. At least not if you want to be "competitive" and place well. As long as you're enjoying yourself getting there, that's what counts. Not how quickly you get there.

[Kevin Callahan]

Competing in Gold in 5 years is an ambitious goal for someone who's never skated before. At least not if you want to be "competitive" and place well. As long as you're enjoying yourself getting there, that's what counts. Not how quickly you get there.

I think there's an issue of clarity here. I am not a new skater.

I learned to skate nearly a decade ago. I am a previous child skater. In fact, I learned on the very rink I'm skating on right now until the college semester is over. I took hockey lessons at that time, however. Was even a goalie in middle school. I am well aware there are technique differences between hockey skating and figure skating, but it is because of this previous experience that I have decent command of the ice when it comes to speed and control during simple forward and backward motion and why I am not afraid to fall or otherwise get roughed up while attempting tricks.

[TaBalie]

Re: the "non-crossed legs" axel...

I have seen them done a few ways... The first, for a single, is as you jump from your left/take-off leg, once you get in the air right/free-leg straightens and the left/take-off leg bends, but does not cross the right leg (almost like a one foot spin, but looser). This can be done with a double too. The other way is to do more of an "open axel" but not as extreme as a true open axel.

In my opinion, the tight "backspin" position in the air is a result of a few things. First, coaches push push push skaters to land jumps, even if they maky not have the strength or technique. So these smaller skaters complete the rotatation VERY quickly, and when they land their leg is usually still wrapped around the landing leg. Dorothy Hamill started skating when she was 8, Peggy Flemming 9-10--and I am sure they were not working on axels in a year like skaters are now. The second reason is that athletes push for more dfficulty in the jumps (more rotation, etc) to be competitive, and to make a triple jump work (especially an axel) you need to rotate fast to make it around-->hence the tighter backspin position in the air.

I love seeing old skating peformances (prior to maybe 1975) because people never fell in competitions, and they did every single skill beautifully -- it wasn't about desperately trying to land a jump. I love the sport now, but for different reasons (exciting to see what skaters are trying now, etc).

[icedancer2]

Then you have a good chance of suceeding!!

I have seen hockey players about your age literally ROCKET through the test system, and even know one who competed at Sectionals recently (in dance) after about 3 years on figure skates.

It CAN be done -- good luck to you Kevin. You are going to have a BLAST!!! :)

[Thin-Ice]

Dorothy Hamill started skating when she was 8, Peggy Flemming 9-10--and I am sure they were not working on axels in a year like skaters are now.

No, they were working on figures for hours on end! During that time frame many coaches then did not let skaters even start working on Axels until they had passed their first figure tests. That way when they did start working on Axels they had excellent body control from all those FO/FI/BO/BI figure eights.

[TashaKat]

Just to clarify ... when I said to take it more slowly I meant learning wise (ie don't do the advanced stuff before you can do the basics properly) rather than speed on the ice! Speed on the ice is good but you have to have technique as well. I'd rather see a slow, graceful skater with nice edges than a frantic, flappy thing going at a hundred miles an hour :)

[stardust skies]

I think there's an issue of clarity here. I am not a new skater.

I learned to skate nearly a decade ago. I am a previous child skater. In fact, I learned on the very rink I'm skating on right now until the college semester is over. I took hockey lessons at that time, however. Was even a goalie in middle school. I am well aware there are technique differences between hockey skating and figure skating, but it is because of this previous experience that I have decent command of the ice when it comes to speed and control during simple forward and backward motion and why I am not afraid to fall or otherwise get roughed up while attempting tricks.

Not sure this goes for everyone, but when someone comes back and says they are a "child skater", then I assume they actually took lessons/passed tests/maybe competed, and at the very least did jumps and spins and stuff. You're the one who said "not bad for someone who's never taken a lesson", that's why people thought you had never had a skating lesson, because you said so.

It's great you learned to skate as a kid, but there's a difference (a huge one..) between learning to SKATE, and learning to figure skate. You did the former, and it's the latter that would make the difference as far as how quickly you think you can breeze through skating (the moves in the field tests, although I don't know what the adult ones are like, will kill you...you can't just do jumps and spins to get to compete, you have to pass moves in the field FIRST..and they're not fun, and they take forever to learn). I'm not trying to discourage you, but I think it's important for you to have people trying and bring you a little dose of objectivity. I don't know what you need to pass/compete at adult gold, I assume it's doable in 5 years, but...you're going to have to approach it differently in my opinion.

[Kevin Callahan]

I also think there's confusion about my tone. I'm not asserting I can breeze through anything. The goal I have set was affirmed as doable by my coach. Now, I did not take figure skating lessons, this is true. However, I did take hockey lessons, as well as play. Once again, I know there are differences between hockey skating and figure skating. Due to internet constraints, I think you're reading too much into my posts. Rather I do not disagree with you, and I'm not asserting that I do. I think your claim about a different approach assumes too much for such limited exposure to me.

[icedancer2]

Kevin -- I don't want to highjack your post/thread, but I was thinking about that "axel without crossing your leg over"- thing, and went back and looked at a clip of a skater I used to know in the '60s -- Tim Wood -- he was World Champion in '68, '69 and '70 -- did his axel and even a double axel without noticably crossing his leg over -- anyway you can download this clip if you want to see it:

http://s15.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2TSI5BMVLB4OB1VKAP9JV0RUWU

Now I'm wondering if skaters in the past could do this technique not just because of regular figure 8s, which are largish, but because of loops, which is a very small figure and required more hip control and strength.

Anyway, good luck to you -- the hockey players that I have known have GREAT edges and the Moves should be no problem.

[jazzpants]

Not sure this goes for everyone, but when someone comes back and says they are a "child skater", then I assume they actually took lessons/passed tests/maybe competed, and at the very least did jumps and spins and stuff. You're the one who said "not bad for someone who's never taken a lesson", that's why people thought you had never had a skating lesson, because you said so.Hmmm??? Then where would you put me?

I was skating as a kid from age 10 to 12, have never took lessons (not even from a coach) but did pick up spirals, one foot spins and waltz jumps. (A wimpy one but technically a waltz jump.) Even managed a "shoot the duck" one day. (And ALL on RENTAL skates too!!!) I came back to the sport at age 31 and then took lessons from a coach. Am I considered a "returning child skater" or an "adult onset skater?"

[doubletoe]

Kevin, there's no reason you can't pass your Adult Gold tests in 5 years if you are dedicated. I wouldn't say that to everyone, but you obviously have a comfort level on the ice and I think that makes a big difference. I skated recreationally when I was about 12 or 13 and I only got as far as crossovers and a little waltz jump, which a friend taught me. Mostly, I just tried to skate as fast as I could to keep up with my friends who were taking lessons and had learned correct stroking technique. But I think that experience made a big difference in my comfort level on the ice as an adult.
I took my first skating lesson--a group class--at age 27, and I continued to take a class once a week for 5 years, skating just one or two times per week on public sessions. Although I had trouble on my spins, I was landing all of my single jumps through the lutz within the first year or two. Then, after 5 years of group lessons and fooling around, I got too busy with work and completely quit skating for the next 5 years. But when I came back 5 years later, I finally got serious, taking private lessons and starting the testing process from ground zero. I passed both my Gold moves-in-the-field and Freestyle tests less than 4 years later (that was 3 weeks ago, at age 40). All of this is just to say that if I had been as serious when I first started as I have been since returning to the ice, I think Gold in 5 years would have been achievable.

[doubletoe]

Hmmm??? Then where would you put me?

I was skating as a kid from age 10 to 12, have never took lessons (not even from a coach) but did pick up spirals, one foot spins and waltz jumps. (A wimpy one but technically a waltz jump.) Even managed a "shoot the duck" one day. (And ALL on RENTAL skates too!!!) I came back to the sport at age 31 and then took lessons from a coach. Am I considered a "returning child skater" or an "adult onset skater?"

Hey there, Jazzpants! :)
You and I seem to have a very similar background! I don't know about everyone else, but in my circles, the consensus is that if you never took any lessons until you were an adult, you are an adult onset skater. I mean, we put Bactine and Band-Aids on our cuts and scrapes when we were kids, too, but I wouldn't call that practicing medicine. ;)

[blisspix]

The goal I have set was affirmed as doable by my coach.

What are your intermediate goals? All singles by year end? Passing your first test etc? I think it's very important to set small goals that you can achieve in a short amount of time. For example, my long term goal at the moment is to pass Primary (which in Australia is the nationals qualifying test). I think this will take about 5 years. But to get there, I have to set goals about actually getting to the rink twice a week, making inquiries about getting coaching again, getting my single jumps back in order, and passing Elementary 2 which is the test that comes before Primary.

So I'd be interested to hear what you're planning on achieving in the short term, and what your coach wants you to do short term.

I had so many friends when I was a teen skater have the goal of getting to seniors in 5 years (after finishing basic skills - Aussie Skate). Many of them got through to Novice, one to Junior, but none the whole way. They zoomed along in the first few years, but then things do slow down and it is a lot harder to get triples than doubles. So do remember to set other goals so that if you don't get to Gold in 5, you're not discouraged.

[Kevin Callahan]

What are your intermediate goals?

Excellent question, and I'll have that answer for you around the 17th. My coach and I will be sitting down and discussing those intermediate goals in detail. The reason I chose him over others was that he is well known as a person who can make timetables for his skaters and then know how to keep them sticking to it! When I started poking around, even other coaches said "You know, not that we don't want your business, but you really need to talk to Tim. You have a very specific goal, and that sounds like a match for Tim." After talking to him and hearing just his preliminary enthusiasm (kind of felt like a science project at times), I knew that between my determination and his, we would make serious progress together.

[stardust skies]

Hmmm??? Then where would you put me?

I was skating as a kid from age 10 to 12, have never took lessons (not even from a coach) but did pick up spirals, one foot spins and waltz jumps. (A wimpy one but technically a waltz jump.) Even managed a "shoot the duck" one day. (And ALL on RENTAL skates too!!!) I came back to the sport at age 31 and then took lessons from a coach. Am I considered a "returning child skater" or an "adult onset skater?"


I'm only speaking for myself and what I understand terms to be. I've always assumed that child skaters meant...they were serious skaters as kids. Maybe I'm just wrong, but for the sake of that whole adult vs returning kid skater you guys talk about regarding Nationals and the advantage returning skaters have on new skaters and such...I imagined that the advantageous ones were "child skaters" ie: people who learned most of the freestyle stuff as a kid. I haven't ever been off the ice for a long period of time, but I know how rusty I get after vacations...so I'm wondering how much skating for 2 years and getting a scratch spin/waltz jump helped you when you returned to skating and learned skating when you were an adult. All the other moves, you had to learn for the first time, so aside for two moves you already knew, everything is new. I think it'd be unfair to treat you as a "child skater" then, and assume everything is easier for you because you knew how to skate as a child. I'd think that unless you had at least doubles as a child and skated for a long time, that returning as an adult, skating a little when you were younger really wouldn't help that much.

Am I totally wrong on this? I really don't know, I'm just going by what I understood from some of the convos you guys have had.

[jenlyon60]

I think also in our various discussions we haven't thought about someone like Kevin who may have played hockey as a kid/young adult, then life interfered, then came back to skating and decided to try figure skating rather than (or in addition to) playing hockey.

I would think that some of the same things about comfort level (with regards to rate of movement on the ice) would hold true for a "hockey convert" as a "returning to ice but figure skated as a kid" adult skater.

[Casey]

An axel takes the average person a year to learn. I was an exception, and it still took me 2 months
Do you mean it takes a year from when you start skating, or a year from when you start working on the axel?

If the former (as I originally read it), then I feel like quite the slacker. If the latter, whew, that seems an awful long time for one jump. Do the rest of the doubles usually come quicker after you get the axel?


And Kevin, regarding the ice guards, you'll probably find that they wouldn't mind the same jump if it were exercised with more control. I don't know because I haven't seen your skating, but I used to be told by ice guards at certain rinks that I couldn't do jumps on public sessions when simply trying salchows and toe loops, however in recent months have skated at the same rinks doing those jumps as well as flips and loops on public sessions without a problem. I won't say my skating is super now - it's not by any means - but it's more obvious that I have more control to the casual observer.

And honestly, to this day, it's still control I struggle most with. For me, there's pretty much two ways I can try to move forward in skating - accumulating new skills, or obtaining better control over existing ones. Generally I find I can get away with doing the former for a while, but then I get stuck on something. In frustration, I slow down and start working on existing things and trying to do them more precisely, and though this, that skill I was hung up on becomes easier. So, do both! Keep working on the hard things that you can't do with outstanding control, without trying you'll never succeed! But never forget to keep working on the things that you know already, there's always room for improvement, and it will just help all your new stuff too. Gotta keep up a healthy balance.

I still work on the waltz jump most days that I skate. There's always some detail that can be better (and a coach is really helpful for identifying those).

As to whether you're doing an axel, you could think of it as being a double waltz. You take off from the same left forward outside edge, and land on the same right backward outside edge - proper technique aside the only difference is that there's an extra full rotation in there. So in a waltz jump you rotate 0.5 revolutions, in an axel it's 1.5 revolutions. Because it is >1 revolution, the single axel is often considered a double jump. Indeed many learn a double toe loop or double salchow first.

Good luck!

[jenlyon60]

It depends on the skater. I've seen people get axels relatively quickly (a couple months) and I've seen people struggle for months.

And with the double axel, even more so. I'd say it's not unrealistic to take a long time to get the 2Axel clean and consistent, even if a skater has a couple triples under their belt. I've seen kids working on 2Axel for 1-2 years. Going out on the ice every day (5-6 days a week) and working on it.

Do you mean it takes a year from when you start skating, or a year from when you start working on the axel?

[skaternum]

Do you mean it takes a year from when you start skating, or a year from when you start working on the axel?If we're talking about adults, the latter. And quite frankly, that's pretty fast. I've seen many adults take years to get an axel. I know of a couple who've been working on it for years and still don't have one! That jump is a b**ch.

[sunshinepointe]

Maybe it's a matter of personal preference, but I think setting timetables can be a detrimental thing. People learn different elements at different paces. So what if you get your axel in 2 months or 2 years? If you get it, thats what counts right? If you set a timetable and say, "I'm going to learn to do X element in X amount of time" and then that time comes and goes I can't see anything other than disappointment and frustration. Maybe it's just me, and I take my skating seriously, but I think having strict timetables can hurt more than help. I see nothing wrong with goal setting - like say, "I'm going to pass my silver moves" but when you say "by such and such date" it puts way too much pressure on you.

[doubletoe]

Maybe it's a matter of personal preference, but I think setting timetables can be a detrimental thing. People learn different elements at different paces. So what if you get your axel in 2 months or 2 years? If you get it, thats what counts right? If you set a timetable and say, "I'm going to learn to do X element in X amount of time" and then that time comes and goes I can't see anything other than disappointment and frustration. Maybe it's just me, and I take my skating seriously, but I think having strict timetables can hurt more than help. I see nothing wrong with goal setting - like say, "I'm going to pass my silver moves" but when you say "by such and such date" it puts way too much pressure on you.

It all depends on what works to motivate each type of person. I need to have specific target dates in mind for everything I do or else it's hard for me to stay focused on the goal. And there's nothing to say you can't keep adjusting your target dates as you go.

[doubletoe]

Do you mean it takes a year from when you start skating, or a year from when you start working on the axel?

If the former (as I originally read it), then I feel like quite the slacker. If the latter, whew, that seems an awful long time for one jump. Do the rest of the doubles usually come quicker after you get the axel?

As to whether you're doing an axel, you could think of it as being a double waltz.

The axel--and anything above the axel--is a whole different animal from any of the single jumps. As I mentioned earlier, I had all of my single jumps through the lutz within two years of starting group lessons. However, the axel took me a year to land on the floor and another year to land on the ice! Then it took another year before I was able to land it in my program in competition, so that's 3 years to get a "usable" axel. Granted, I wasn't working on it that often at first, but still, I think two years is pretty common to land your first axel unless you are very, very focused on it.

The #1 focus if you want to land your axel is to get a solid backspin! I can't tell you how many times I was told that, and how many times I dismissed it, because I didn't like spins and I hated the backspin in particular. But it was only after I finally got a decent backspin that I had my big breakthrough on the axel. Rather than thinking of the axel as a double waltz jump, or even a waltz-loop (which is actually most accurate), I have found it really works to think of it as a straight-up waltz jump into a backspin. That's what helps me land it, anyway. :)

And yes, the axel really is the gateway to double jumps. I landed my first double salchow just 3 months after landing my first axel, and I hadn't even worked on it that much. It's all about getting used to rotating backwards over your landing hip.

[twokidsskatemom]

Lots of kids stop skating after trying for 2 or more years for that jump.Its a defining point for alot of people, both kids and adults.Some people get a double sal before the axel.
And huge difference with landing it and landing it clean and good enough for a program.Take time and practice.
My daughter landed on yesterday but it was cheated.She know it will be at least a year for it to be great.
backspin waltz is what she does alot alot, it does help !!

[blisspix]

Lots of kids stop skating after trying for 2 or more years for that jump.Its a defining point for alot of people, both kids and adults.Some people get a double sal before the axel.

Absolutely. It took me a long time to get the axel and I don't think I ever had it very consistently. My double loop and salchow were more consistent. Double sal was one of those jumps I just decided I wanted to do one day - and did 20 of them in a row. You could never do that with an axel.

As unsure as I felt my axel was though, I was the first in my competitive group at the time to have it in my program, and there was usually two of them, one after lutz and the other an axel-loop combo. It always concerned me a little because it always took me a long time to warm up the axel, time you don't really get in the 6 minute warmup.

I hardly do them these days, waiting until I have coaching again as I can feel errors creeping in.


The reason I chose him over others was that he is well known as a person who can make timetables for his skaters and then know how to keep them sticking to it!

I really like the sound of this approach! Turns skating into project management in a way ;)

[Kevin Callahan]

Switching gears, I am in need of a new pair of skates. Or at least new to me pair of skates. There's so much out there, I don't know where to start. Since I'm not growing, I need skates that are going to last a decent amount of time. And certainly skates that are going to hold up in competition.

I've had SP Teri recommended over Reidell, and after picking up the boots in my hand and feeling them, I tend to see why. The seem more solidly constructed. Does anyone have any tips? I'd be more than willing to go the used route as long as the boots will hold up for the next few months (until I'm promoted to a management position at work), and the blades have sharpening life in them.

Oh yeah, and I hate black. I hope my Y chromosone doesn't preclude me from wearing white in competition or something (I happen to have white skates now).

[blisspix]

I've had SP Teri recommended over Reidell, and after picking up the boots in my hand and feeling them, I tend to see why. The seem more solidly constructed. Does anyone have any tips?

Well, that depends if you picked up two boots of equal strength. Boots of equal quality will feel very similar if you have average feet - I found it very difficult to choose between Teris (super teri deluxe, now discontinued) and Jacksons (elite), I tried one on each foot for about an hour and it was a marginal difference between them.

I would recommend going to a big shop with a big range and trying everything, especially if you've never had high quality boots before. Expect to be in the shop for 2-3 hours. If you wear orthotics, bring them. Only wear on your feet what you will wear on the ice. I wore socks for my fitting because I was a sock fan back in the day, but the Teris fit so well that I just wear tights now.

Wear whatever colour you want - most young male skaters at the rink I frequent wear white because that's all they can get. You can always 'change colour' by wearing boot covers.

[doubletoe]

There is no "best" brand. Depending on the shape of your foot, SP Teris might fit you perfectly and Harlicks might squeeze you in the toes. Or SP Teris might just kill you and Harlicks might fit you perfectly. As long as you are getting a reputable brand (Harlick, SP Teri, Graf, Klingbeil, Reidell, Jackson, etc.), the best brand for you will largely depend on the shape of your foot.
Meanwhile, the level of boot you get within that brand's product line will generally be a function of what stiffness you need, and that will depend on your body weight, how aggressively you skate, and what level jumps you are doing. Boots that are more expensive are generally more expensive because they cost more to make, due to the level of stiffness. They aren't more expensive because they are "better." I have heard horror stories of people ending up with boots that are so stiff they feel like cement blocks and never break in.

One option is to start off with boots that are less expensive, but sufficient for learning all of your single jumps. Jacksons are a good value for the money at that level (provided they fit you, of course). Then in a year or two you could upgrade to something stiffer for your axel and doubles, say something like Harlicks or SP Teris. That will also give you some time to learn more about the different types of boots so that you will be more informed when it's time to put down a serious chunk of money for them.

[luna_skater]

I'm also tempted to suggest erring on the side of too little support versus too much support. I know that boots can be "built up," i.e., made stiffer, but I'm not sure they can be made LESS stiff if you get out on the ice and decide you don't like skating in cement blocks.

[jenlyon60]

definitely don't buy a boot that is too strong.

Each brand of skating boot also has its own characteristics in terms of last design. One brand of boot may fit your foot better that another brand.

So find a pro shop and technician who will work with you to try on several brands. Be prepared to spend a good couple of hours if you are going to try on a couple pairs as you will want 15-20 minutes sitting in the boots to see how they really feel.

You said you skated at Dr. Pepper Stars, as I recall. Seems to me they have enough high level competitors skating there that their pro shop should be able to help you, or else the coaches should be able to recommend a pro shop and skate technician to help you.

[doubletoe]

By the way, those stiff, heavy boots may feel comfortable for the first week, but then your ankle bones make indentations through all that nice padding and ooooh BOY is it a different story, LOL!

[coskater64]

I agree w/ the gang on this, mostly because I made the "to stiff boot" mistake and let me tell you--it is very painful and can be expensive and stop you from skating until you get it fixed. It is also a good idea to go softer at first to build up your ankle strength, you should also work on stroking (x'overs), cross rolls and smoothness. Posture is key in skating and while a lot of people like to rush through things and say look at me I'm a XXX level skater, there is a lot of difference between meeting the minimum standard for a level and excelling beyond that standard.

Should you ever have a chance to watch adult skaters look carefully at Bronze, Silver and Gold skaters. What are the differences between the skaters is it just the jumps and spins? Of course not, there is an issue of quality of skating, if you want to skate gold in five years realize you will be skating under the New Judging System, this system rewards ease and finess in skating good jumps that are clean, solid spins w/ good positions and the ability to change edges w/in that spin. Footwork above 3 turns, twizzles, rockers, choctaws turning both CW/ CCW--- this is a lot to do.

So in wrapping up good luck with your goal, go to a good fitter for skates, don't get killer strong boots, get comfortable boots a Cornation Ace blade or similar model is a good blade through Axel and doubles.

Remember to have fun, it is a beautiful sport and one to be enjoyed.

[TimDavidSkate]

I agree w/ the gang on this, mostly because I made the "to stiff boot" mistake and let me tell you--it is very painful and can be expensive and stop you from skating until you get it fixed. It is also a good idea to go softer at first to build up your ankle strength, you should also work on stroking (x'overs), cross rolls and smoothness. Posture is key in skating and while a lot of people like to rush through things and say look at me I'm a XXX level skater, there is a lot of difference between meeting the minimum standard for a level and excelling beyond that standard.

Yeps, I had my boot for 3 years now, it still hurts for the first 5 minutes I wear and skate on it :??

[N-square]

Stiff boots are not comfortable? My coach told me to get
Sp Teri CL(Are they stiff for me?), and I am doing things from intermediate level, but I can only do inside and outside forward edges. Does it mean I should not get the boots??? :frus: :frus:

I have two coach, one was doing Fs 1 with me in the summer, but he went for a holiday, so when I came to England I didn't know how to do any footwork. I started with another coach here, she taught me forward edges, but also I am doing the intermediate jumps and spins(Fs 4). This christmas I am leaving England for the holiday, my coach told me to get Sp Teri CL, and
I am taking lessons with the coach at my hometown, he would not know I am doing Fs 4 though. My question is, should I get the boots or not? I need to get a new pair anyway, because my skates are too small for me. :cry: :cry:

[Casey]

I agree w/ the gang on this, mostly because I made the "to stiff boot" mistake and let me tell you--it is very painful and can be expensive and stop you from skating until you get it fixed.
I think it depends on the skater. Everyone figured Graf Edmontons would be way to stiff for me, when I was first starting to skate a year ago, but as it turns out, I wanted strong support and I appreciate the skates for that - the stiffness level suits me very well (especially now that I've progressed quite a bit). I'm sure they're not as stiff as SP Teri KT2/3's, but they're up there anyways - Graf doesn't make a stiffer boot.

The boots turned out to be a mistake because the heels have separated from the boots, but not for the stiffness. And Graf is supposed to be replacing the boots any day now as the heel issue was a manufacturing defect according to them, so we'll see.

[stardust skies]

I think it depends on the skater. Everyone figured Graf Edmontons would be way to stiff for me, when I was first starting to skate a year ago, but as it turns out, I wanted strong support and I appreciate the skates for that - the stiffness level suits me very well (especially now that I've progressed quite a bit). I'm sure they're not as stiff as SP Teri KT2/3's, but they're up there anyways - Graf doesn't make a stiffer boot.



For what it's worth, Grafs are the softest boots on the market. I for one, never said Graf would be too stiff for you (if I did I must have been smoking something..), I don't think Grafs would be too stiff for anybody. Even the stiffest Graf is still softer than most mid-level SP Teri, Harlick, or Riedell boot. They are just very soft boots, which, despite their terrible quality, is what attracts skaters about them in the first place. No break-in period. And little longevity, which is, if I recall, why I was against them for you (or anyone). Sp Teri boots are a total different story.

[Casey]

For what it's worth, Grafs are the softest boots on the market. I for one, never said Graf would be too stiff for you (if I did I must have been smoking something..), I don't think Grafs would be too stiff for anybody. Even the stiffest Graf is still softer than most mid-level SP Teri, Harlick, or Riedell boot. They are just very soft boots, which, despite their terrible quality, is what attracts skaters about them in the first place. No break-in period. And little longevity, which is, if I recall, why I was against them for you (or anyone). Sp Teri boots are a total different story.
Agreed, SP Teri boots go a lot stiffer. :)

I don't recall if *you* said that (probably not), but several people did at the time. It's actually a good thing that I ended up with the Grafs, because what I wanted at the time were SP Teri Super Teris. While less stiff than KT2/3's, those would probably have been way too stiff for me and possibly caused more injury (definitely more frustration). Much as I dislike the problems with the Grafs, the stiffness level is quite appropriate for my level. Now if I ever get trained up and start doing axels/doubles, that will be a different story. But that will probably be about when the replacement set of Grafs I'm getting will be worn out anyways. Time will tell.

[jp1andOnly]

Grafs actually do come stronger. Its called double strength. Senior male skaters that I know (including my brother at one point) used Graf extra strength or double strength.

I'm still pleased as punch with my grafs though I will be switching to custom Jacksons next year only because I can get a good deal and they are customs which makes it a bonus