Heat Molding temperature? The Galaxy Saga Continues...

[SkatingOnClouds]

Well, picked up my Graf Galaxy boots from being stretched yesterday. They are Sooooo close to being comfortable now. Probably a couple of weeks of skating on them will finish the job. But of course, I don't want to wait. So I'm back to heat molding.

My husband did this for me in the beginning, and I just had another go myself, but I don't think we're getting them hot enough. The advertising blurb for Galaxy boots says they "become as pliable as play-doh" when heated, and mine certainly weren't anywhere near that pliable.

I searched the archives here, and the thread I found mentioned quite a wide range of temperatures. One person mentioned 150 degrees Celsius, and others mentioned about 150o Farenheit - which is way lower.

My boots didn't come in the original box or with instructions. Does anyone out there know what temperature Grafs should be molded at, and for how long?

I've rung the local roller rink, they haven't a clue, and the ski shop has stored their heat molding equipment away for the summer. Sigh! Sometimes I feel like I live in a backwater.


Karen

[stardust skies]

I think you have to remember you're dealing with extremely stiff *leather*. There's only so much it will do, especially in a short amount of time. Nobody enjoys breaking new boots in, it's no walk in the park, I have permanent scarring from doing it. If your boots are comfortable the first time you wear them, they'll last you three weeks. They're supposed to hurt (within reason) and they are supposed to NOT bend excessively. It's good that they don't. Just leave them alone and skate on them, is really your best bet. If after two weeks you feel the same way, THEN try to mold them again. You're gonna kill your boots at this rate.

[TashaKat]

Just leave them alone and skate on them, is really your best bet. If after two weeks you feel the same way, THEN try to mold them again. You're gonna kill your boots at this rate.

I have to agree with you on that one. I don't like any stretching or anything on boots as it inevitably cuts their lifespan down and, IMO, creates a weak spot in the boot (ok, maybe not 'weak' but certainly weaker).

If your boots are comfortable the first time you wear them, they'll last you three weeks. They're supposed to hurt (within reason)

Have to disagree with you on this one, though! Since buying Harlicks I don't get pain and they ARE comfortable right away (oh, and last for a couple of years for free before being consigned to dance for another couple of years). Ok, they don't bend but then they don't hurt to break them in either. It's not that I'm super tough either, I've been in tears from Belatis, Wifa Diamonds and Risport Super Diamonts!

[SkatingOnClouds]

I can't agree with you on that, I don't think permanent scars are something we should expect from our (expensive) boots. 8O

I do have permanent scars, from a pair of supposedly custom made Altamura boots (Australian brand). The steel supports over the ankles flattened my ankle bones. Even with orthopedic intervention, they never became comfortable, and my feet never stopped cramping, not even after about 3 years of skating.

I do understand boots need to be stiff, and they should be snug. They will naturally take time to wear in so that you can bend and be at home in them. But I do not believe the process should be painful.

Those who have been following this saga will be relieved to hear that these boots are at the stage where they are just that little bit too tight in the one place. I am ready to attach my old Phantom blades (and they are the perfect length) and to try to skate in them.

If someone does know the correct temperature to heat mold Grafs I would like to give it one more shot before the weekend, otherwise I will stretch them the hard way - by skating in them.

Karen

[jp1andOnly]

ummm..why not call Graf and ask them what temperature to heat them at. If you can't find the number for Graf I'm sure a call to a pro shop perhaps who have a 1-800 number might help as well.

[Mrs Redboots]

If your boots are comfortable the first time you wear them, they'll last you three weeks. They're supposed to hurt (within reason) and they are supposed to NOT bend excessively. .Oh, I dunno, last pair of boots I got were comfortable the first day, and lasted me 8 years! My present pair did take a week to feel like "my" boots, and I then had trouble with a bunion (but I think I might have done that anyway), but I'm still hoping they'll last me another 8 years.....

[Isk8NYC]

Sorry, Stardust Skies, I disagree about the "no pain, no gain" of breaking in skates. You should not be getting permanent scars and orthopedic problems from the skates. Breaking in is simply molding the skates to your feet and allowing the leather to soften somewhat from wear. Good skates should not alter your feet - it's the other way around. For the record, I had similar problems with the Reidells I started out in back in the day, before heat molding. My first pair of Klingbeils were comfortable from day one without heat molding, and I was able to do axels from the first wearing. They broke down after four years of 10-12 hrs/week skating (axels and doubles) and were rebuilt by Klingbeil, giving them new life for another five years of regular skating.

Back to the topic: I think you should contact Graf directly and get the correct temperature and scale. Rainbo Sports recommends 180 degrees Fahrenheit for heat molding, but that's not specifically for Grafs. Most manufacturers don't recommend heat molding multiple times because it does cause premature break DOWN (not break in!). So does leaving them in a hot car, which I can attest to first hand. Tell Graf what you've already done, and at what temperatures, just so they have the background and ask for their recommendations.

Why don't you try skating on them first, Celliste? Have someone help you mount the blades, and try them for a bit before you make more adjustments. They will stretch a bit from use, and that may be enough to make them comfy.

Good luck!

[flippet]

I think maybe what stardust means is that 'hurt' is relative, depending on who you're talking to. For a brand-spanking-new-never-skated-before beginner, I'd probally give the same advice....because they have nothing to compare the feeling to, and would likely call the tightness 'pain'---whereas an experienced, many-different-boots person would call that same tightness 'ahh...feels just about right, give me a couple days skating (or a heat-molding), and they'll be molded perfectly'.

For someone who only knows athletic shoes, or two-sizes-too-big recreational skates, yes, it's gonna feel 'wrong' at first, until you know what 'right' feels like. But I agree, for an experienced skater, if it feels like what we'd call 'pain', then something's wrong.

[jazzpants]

If your boots are comfortable the first time you wear them, they'll last you three weeks.Still wearing my custom Harlicks after close to a year now and the only problem I have is the tougue doesn't stay in the middle. My boots felt comfortable from the first day on. (I only restrained myself from jumping b/c Phil (from Harlicks) told me not to do anything that requires "deep ankle bend" for the first couple of weeks...)

You are supposed to feel a bit of snug around the foot, but pushing and stabbing pain to the point where I'm developing scars on my feet in my book is pain!!!

[stardust skies]

Hi,


Well I think everyone's experience with skates seem to be better than mine! Haha. I'm somewhere in between what Flippet said and what you all understood as to what I meant. Obviously I didn't mean they should HURT so bad that you can't skate, and the permanent scarring is probably my fault for lacing my skates up all the way and doing jumps right away in the stiffest boots known to man. But yes, if I understood correctly (I might not have, sorry if I am confusing you with someone else) Celliste comes from really soft, "beginner" boots, and is now in her first pair of real freestyle boots. I think that this jump really is a big one, and that you may indeed feel like the boots "hurt" when it's just the way new boots are supposed to feel, but Celliste may not know that yet because recreational skates are very soft and don't hurt (or at least in my experience). There's a huge difference between the two kinds...namely because one's plastic and one's leather. So, that's what I meant that it should hurt within reason.

But yeah, it hurts to break in my skates. And they only last me a season. But everyone's different depending on height/weight/what they're doing/how much they are skating/what stiffness boot they're getting, so I shouldn't even have tried to make estimates on how long boots would last. I'm just sayin', I guess...skate on them for a while to get a true idea of how they fit you. :)

..Sorry I just went on for so long, haha.

[SkatingOnClouds]

"if I understood correctly (I might not have, sorry if I am confusing you with someone else) Celliste comes from really soft, "beginner" boots, and is now in her first pair of real freestyle boots. "


Ah, now I understand. No, I'm not exactly a beginner. I used to skate 20 years ago, I was working on axels and double toes before I was transferred to a place where there wasn't a rink.
I've had 3 different models of Altamura boots, an Australian brand. My last boots were their custom model - so tough they never developed creases or broke down, and they had steel supports up the sides which were brutal on my ankles.

I have been skating in Jackson Mystiques since returning to skating, which are a recreational beginner boot (it's a long story as to why, won't bore you here). They have been unsatisfactory for several reasons, but especially lack of stiffness and snug fit, so I was not only expecting, but welcoming that rigid feeling.

In the end it is only that I have big bunions, and cannot afford custom made boots which are causing me to have to work on my Grafs.

I just rang Graf Canada. The guy I spoke to told me to heat them to 200 o F for 3-5 minutes, 6 mins max. He also said that Graf boots can be heat molded as many times as you like without causing the boots to break down. And yeah, he also recommended the "bubble" punch machine to push them out over my bunions.

Karen

[blisspix]

I do have permanent scars, from a pair of supposedly custom made Altamura boots (Australian brand). The steel supports over the ankles flattened my ankle bones. Even with orthopedic intervention, they never became comfortable, and my feet never stopped cramping, not even after about 3 years of skating.

My altamuras caused the opposite problem - permanent swelling, fluid on the ankle bone, and calcification. Narrowly avoided surgery by getting orthotics (which didn't work). They recovered somewhat when I dumped the boots, but not 100%. Sigh, icky boots. And I put up with them for 7 years.


Fingers crossed the Grafs will work out for you.

[Mrs Redboots]

I think maybe what stardust means is that 'hurt' is relative, depending on who you're talking to. For a brand-spanking-new-never-skated-before beginner, I'd probally give the same advice....because they have nothing to compare the feeling to, and would likely call the tightness 'pain'---whereas an experienced, many-different-boots person would call that same tightness 'ahh...feels just about right, give me a couple days skating (or a heat-molding), and they'll be molded perfectly'.On the other hand, Flippet, a beginner might well find (as I did) that new boots are a lot more comfortable than those awful hired jobs, which never do get comfortable. I got a rubbed-raw place from my first-ever pair of skates (which I now know were 2 sizes too big, and they were Belati, which are a great brand but have a reputation for being miserable to break in), but I was still more comfortable in them than in the hire skates!

[Isk8NYC]

Celliste -

So, did you get on the ice with these yet???
I'm dying to know how you made out with your long-awaited purchase!

When God gave out patience, I got bored on line and wandered off ....

[SkatingOnClouds]

I haven't got the blades on yet. After ringing the Graf people yesterday, I am going to give them another heat molding session. My husband (who's a chef) has access to a convection oven, so we'll probably do that Saturday morning. He is so flat out at this time of year that we won't get a chance during the week. I'm off work with 'flu at the moment too, so I'm not getting a lot done.

I'm still figuring out how to make a rig like Jon suggested in the previous thread about my skates (see "cutting holes in boots" thread") in order to push out over the bunions as much as possible.

I have been trying to get hold of a manual bunion ring&ball type clamp. Cannot find one in Australia - except a local lady who does orthapedic footwear found one for me - for $200 8O - a bit out of my budget.

Well I won't be skating this weekend because I am really not well enough. But I really want to get the blades on these puppies and get out on the ice in them. It's been hard waiting all this time as it is.

This whole thing is getting bigger than Ben Hurr and I'm getting sick of the whole subject. I ordered new Gams for my daughter yesterday, the way things are going she'll be skating in her new skates before I get on the ice in mine. I sure hope it is worth the wait.

Karen

[aussieskater]

Celliste, given that you only want to push out over the bunions, you presumably don't need the long piece of wood that's shown in Jon's photo in the other thread - a round ball would do? If so, I've seen both 25-cm G-clamps plus round solid wooden balls of various sizes (which I guess DIY types use for decorating things) at Bunnings (I'm not sure if you have a store near you). Maybe you could saw the round ball in half and super-glue it to the flat end of the G-clamp. There you have the ball end of the clamp. To get the hollow end, you could try the plumbing or metalwork section of Bunnings to find a bitty to fit the ball you want - they have all sorts of joiners, pipes, and other funny bits there.

[SkatingOnClouds]

Thanks AussieSkater, that's a good idea. I know the sort of pre-made wooden things you mean. I'm not much good at woodwork, and neither is my husband, but I'm sure we could manage to cut one of those in half.

Just a matter of finding something to use as the cup to push the ball into. It needs to be reasonably big to hold squarely against the outside of the skate during clamping. I might have to spend some time browsing around the hardware store.

Karen

[aussieskater]

Celliste, I maybe wasn't very clear. My thought was to use superglue to glue the half-ball to one end of the G-clamp, and also use it to glue the other cup-thingie to the other end of the clamp. Just had a thought - maybe Bunnings might have a wooden cup (you never can tell what the DIY-ers can find a use for...)? If so, that's easy to glue on. If the outside of the cup isn't flat where it opposes your ball end, your trusty saw can cut a flat end ready for gluing. The best bit is that you don't need to be a cabinet-maker to do it - if your cuts aren't quite straight or exactly in half, it doesn't really matter.

[SkatingOnClouds]

I've been to the local hardware store. The only wooden balls were way too big. What I bought was a metal drawer knob, got an offcut of pine for free, and a big G clamp. I have carved out the wood, similar (though not as well done) as Jon's pictures showed. I'm not very good at woodwork and lack the necessary tools, however sheer determination got me there.

All I need to do now is find a way to hold the metal knob on the end of the clamp. Being a drawer knob, it does have a flat end to use. I don't really want to glue it permanently to the clamp, and maybe blu tack will hold it long enough to get it in place. Other ideas welcome.

For those who are fortunate enough to have stock size feet, the money to afford custom boots, or have a fully equipped pro shop at their rink, you probably think I am crazy. When you live in a remote place and don't have much spare money, sometimes you have to find ways to do it yourself or it doesn't get done. :lol:

Karen

[SkatingOnClouds]

It Worked!!!!

My adaptation of Jon's rig worked a treat. I heated the area with a heat gun, then put the rig on it. And I remembered Jon's term - punched out unmercifully. So far I have done the left one, the right one is cooling as I type. The drawer knob ball did come off the clamp, which was predictable, but if it works first time, it doesn't matter. Hopefully I won't have to do this ever again.

I now have bunion-shaped skates. It isn't pretty, but then neither are my feet. Woohoo, at this rate I might get to skate on them soon. !!!

Thanks everyone, especially Russiet & Aussieskater for the useful tips.

I'll keep you up to date as I take the next step, mounting the blades. But I think I'll start a new thread for that. I hate scrolling down really long threads, don't y'all?

Karen

[stardust skies]

"if I understood correctly (I might not have, sorry if I am confusing you with someone else) Celliste comes from really soft, "beginner" boots, and is now in her first pair of real freestyle boots. "


Ah, now I understand. No, I'm not exactly a beginner. I used to skate 20 years ago, I was working on axels and double toes before I was transferred to a place where there wasn't a rink.
I've had 3 different models of Altamura boots, an Australian brand. My last boots were their custom model - so tough they never developed creases or broke down, and they had steel supports up the sides which were brutal on my ankles.

I have been skating in Jackson Mystiques since returning to skating, which are a recreational beginner boot (it's a long story as to why, won't bore you here). They have been unsatisfactory for several reasons, but especially lack of stiffness and snug fit, so I was not only expecting, but welcoming that rigid feeling.

In the end it is only that I have big bunions, and cannot afford custom made boots which are causing me to have to work on my Grafs.

I just rang Graf Canada. The guy I spoke to told me to heat them to 200 o F for 3-5 minutes, 6 mins max. He also said that Graf boots can be heat molded as many times as you like without causing the boots to break down. And yeah, he also recommended the "bubble" punch machine to push them out over my bunions.

Karen

Ohhh well that makes more sense. Sorry I misunderstood you. I do think the fact that you got Grafs are part of your problem though, they're pretty hard to work with and I don't know too many people who've been happy with them. I do hope you find a way to make it work for you ASAP, though!! Good luck.

[russiet]

It Worked!!!!

My adaptation of Jon's rig worked a treat. I heated the area with a heat gun, then put the rig on it. And I remembered Jon's term - punched out unmercifully. So far I have done the left one, the right one is cooling as I type. The drawer knob ball did come off the clamp, which was predictable, but if it works first time, it doesn't matter. Hopefully I won't have to do this ever again.

I now have bunion-shaped skates. It isn't pretty, but then neither are my feet. Woohoo, at this rate I might get to skate on them soon. !!!

Thanks everyone, especially Russiet & Aussieskater for the useful tips.

I'll keep you up to date as I take the next step, mounting the blades. But I think I'll start a new thread for that. I hate scrolling down really long threads, don't y'all?

Karen

Do you have a digital camera? I'd love to see a picture of your device. Also a before & after shot of the skate boots would be great.

[Isk8NYC]

Keep the thread going - it's like a serial story in the newspaper! (Can you tell I don't want to go to work today?)

Now, put something in the boot to hold the shape until you can get back to skating!

The heat gun was a good idea. Did it bother the finish, as someone noted it might?

Pictures! Pictures!

[Bunny Hop]

Sorry to digress from the main subject, but perhaps some of the Australian/Australian ex-pat skaters could tell me - am I the last person still skating in Altamuras?

[aussieskater]

It Worked!!!!

My adaptation of Jon's rig worked a treat. I heated the area with a heat gun, then put the rig on it. And I remembered Jon's term - punched out unmercifully. So far I have done the left one, the right one is cooling as I type. The drawer knob ball did come off the clamp, which was predictable, but if it works first time, it doesn't matter. Hopefully I won't have to do this ever again.

I now have bunion-shaped skates. It isn't pretty, but then neither are my feet. Woohoo, at this rate I might get to skate on them soon. !!!

Thanks everyone, especially Russiet & Aussieskater for the useful tips.

I'll keep you up to date as I take the next step, mounting the blades. But I think I'll start a new thread for that. I hate scrolling down really long threads, don't y'all?

Karen

If you need to do it all again (as you might - the leather has a habit of springing back in), maybe try double-sided tape to hold the contraption together. You can cut through it with a razor, then rub the remaining glue off with your thumb, when you're finished. BTW, I too have odd-shaped skates thanks to punching out around the big and little toes. But then, which adult skater doesn't!

[blisspix]

Sorry to digress from the main subject, but perhaps some of the Australian/Australian ex-pat skaters could tell me - am I the last person still skating in Altamuras?

I see one gentleman at the rink I go to still wearing them. There may be others, especially given the second hand market, and I'm not always the best at working out what people are wearing.

When I was at Rainbo, they were disappointed I didn't bring the boots with me - they'd never seen altamuras and were curious! I was like "no way was I going to lug that much weight all the way from Sydney to Chicago"

I didn't throw them away, but they probably won't be hanging around in my house much longer. Here's a piccy of them before I removed the (new) blades for consignment - http://www.flickr.com/photos/blisspix/5203234/

They were a half size too big, so when I changed to teris my blade size went from 10.5" to 9.25" Big change

[aussieskater]

Until I got my Jacksons a couple of years ago, I too was an Altamura wearer - and as I later discovered, an Altamura victim. Thanks to them, I have achilles tendon calluses (ie: calluses on the actual tendons, not just on the skin) on both feet, and have to be very careful not to stretch that area or I'm liable to tear the tendon...Yeucch!

[Bunny Hop]

I don't feel quite so much of a dinosaur about my Altamuras in that case!

Mine are the entry level models, bought for me by parents for my 14th birthday in 1984 when I was taking group lessons at Prince Alfred Park Rink in Sydney. After the rink closed about a year later they only had the occasional outing for recreational skating, and from about 1997 they lived permanently at the back of my wardrobe, but survived about four house moves, including one to the UK. Last year my husband decided he would like to try ice skating, and bought himself a pair of Jacksons on a trip to Chicago. So the Altamuras came out of the wardrobe, the vaseline got wiped off the blades and they've been perfectly servicable ever since, though now that I'm re-learning lunges the leather is getting a bit worn on one foot! Don't know what the blades on them are, other than that they're Canadian - they were on the boots when I got them!

Admittedly, I will probably replace them within the next year or so. This will probably be at Rainbo, so I will try and remember to take the old ones with me so they can marvel at them!