technique questions--3 turns & stroking

[mikawendy]

Hi, everyone--I was wondering if you could answer some technique questions for me.

In 3 turns, where is the free leg supposed to be? Is it extended, bent with the foot near the skating leg's ankle, or is it both (extended-bent-extended)? My skating instructor taught it to us ONLY bent with free foot near skating ankle, but a woman in USFSA freestyle 5 said I should eventually learn them with leg extended (which seems easier when I do it--somehow the extended leg counterbalances me and helps me check the turn). She said doing 3s with extended free leg is eventually important for FI3s--coming out of the 3 turn with the leg extended on the BO edge teaches the edge needed for landing jumps.

Also, in more advanced forward stroking, does one set the free leg down on the outside edge rather than on flats? (I read an ISI skills sheet once that seemed to suggest this--push off from FI edge, set foot down on FO edge.)

Thanks! :D

[kar5162]

3 turns can be done with the free leg close at the ankle or extended. Eventually you will do them with the free leg extended for toe loops and flips (or certain dances if you go that route). I think they are often taught with the free leg close because it is easier for a beginner to do them with control that way. If it's easier with the leg extended because it "counterbalances" you, you most likely are not getting enough knee bend and your weight isn't balanced correctly over your skating leg. But, it is possible that you are doing them correctly that way and it's just easier for you. See if you can't get your instructor to take a look at both the extended and not-extended versions to check that you're on the right track before you practice it too much.

Proper stroking would go to a slight outside edge, but fairly shallow. Pre-Preliminary specifies "stroking on edges (shallow edges with occasional flats acceptable)" and "attempt to properly thrust from edges". For the adult standard (Pre Bronze) it simply says "stroking on edges (flats are acceptable)".

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by mikawendy
Hi, everyone--I was wondering if you could answer some technique questions for me.

In 3 turns, where is the free leg supposed to be? Is it extended, bent with the foot near the skating leg's ankle, or is it both (extended-bent-extended)? My skating instructor taught it to us ONLY bent with free foot near skating ankle, but a woman in USFSA freestyle 5 said I should eventually learn them with leg extended (which seems easier when I do it--somehow the extended leg counterbalances me and helps me check the turn). She said doing 3s with extended free leg is eventually important for FI3s--coming out of the 3 turn with the leg extended on the BO edge teaches the edge needed for landing jumps.

On the other hand, it teaches you bad habits, as you are more likely to widestep down from the turn. One reason for keeping the instep of your free foot clamped to the heel of your skating foot is that after the turn, it is much easier to put that foot down close to the skating foot, thus giving you a much better push off on to the back outside edge. In all the earlier dances, 3-turns are done like that, and where they are done as "Swing 3s", as in the American waltz, and at the start of the Starlight Waltz, this is specified. In fact, in the Starlight waltz, both sorts of 3-turns are used.

If I were you, I'd learn them with your feet together to start with, and only work on the extended version when you need to.

Also, in more advanced forward stroking, does one set the free leg down on the outside edge rather than on flats? (I read an ISI skills sheet once that seemed to suggest this--push off from FI edge, set foot down on FO edge.) Thanks! :D Yes, always skate on an edge when you can, rather than on a flat. You are laying down good habits that will last you all your skating days. If you should learn to dance, later on, you will learn that skating on a flat is totally unacceptable, and it's always better not to even in free skating - you get more power and speed if you are on an edge - so get into good habits while you are learning.

Incidentally, you will always be practising your 3-turns and edges, right up until you hang up your boots! You can't work on them too much.

[jenlyon60]

It is definitely best to learn the 3-turns with the free leg close. It helps stabilize the body for the check after the turn. Bringing the free leg close also helps prevent or at least can help minimize the "whip" effect. As you rise on the knee and start your pre-rotation of the shoulders, the free leg should draw in towards the skating leg. You should also be changing your balance on the blade to the front of the blade... not the toe pick, but about where the rocker of the blade ends. At the moment you execute the turn, it should be touching or pretty close. After the turn, as you check the exit edge, keep the free leg close. You should be using shoulders and hips to check the exit edge.

For an FO3, exiting on a BI edge, the whole front of your body should be facing INTO the circle. Think of hugging a huge beach ball the size of the circle and squeezing your upper thighs and backside so that the hips are open.

I find checking an FI3 to be much more difficult (I really should work on the old school figures with FI3s in them...my FIs are horrendous on a good day) As near as I can describe it, I'm setting up for the FI3 with the front of my body facing INTO the circle. It feels to me like I actually initiate the turn with my free side by gently rotating the whole free side just a tad. For the check on the BO edge, my shoulders are strongly rotated so that I'm leading with the shoulder of my skating side, but my hips are square or if possible I'm also leading with the skating hip.

And in dance, although it may appear that the free leg is kept extended away from the body and skating leg when doing a "waltz-3" as in the American Waltz, that is an illusion. If the turn is properly executed, as the skater rises, the free leg comes in. The turn is then executed and the free leg extends "back" although it's actually more of a side leg lift with the hips remaining level and the toe turned out. American Waltzes in which it appears that the turns are whipped have very poor control and technique. And yes... all this is easier said than done.

I've decided that 3-turns come in different training levels... I joke about 3-turns 101, 3-turns 201, 3-turns 301, etc... to mimic the common course codes used at many American universities...

--jsl

[1lutz2klutz]

My coach explained to me that keeping the free foot in close is a "figures" position- it could be that one coach came from a stronger figures background than the other. The figure position forces you to be in complete control of the skating edge, without using your other leg to help balance. He makes me practice my 3's in figure position, but when we move to MIF he said either way will work. (Well, at least he SAYS it will work- my 3 turns in just about any position are pretty pathetic!):roll:

[jasmine]

There are two positions for foot close to free leg.

First is "figures" position with free knee bent and free foot to side of skating leg. (Figures were technical moves before "Field Moves", and are done in one place on the ice with emphasis on draughtsmanlike precision drawing circles and lines on the ice).

Second is "dance" position with free knee straight (but not locked) and free leg turned out from hip and instep of free foot touching back of heel of skating leg.

There are variations for positions with foot away from free leg, but the most important thing is to achieve the turn by down-up-down knee action, and not by swinging hips. So at point of turn, free leg will be parallel to cusp of turn and thereafter leads backwards, which can help you gain speed on exit.

[Mrs Redboots]

One thing that occurs to me that may or may not be helpful is this: when we were learning 3-turns, we were taught to check by being required to keep our head still until we had finished the turn - you turned underneath your head, which finished by looking over your shoulder! Then, as you stepped down on to the BO edge, you turned your head, then your torso, so you had your back into the circle, and only then stepped forward to push off into the next FO3. My present coach reminds me that I should push into the BO edge, and to be sure to extend my free leg forwards, and to keep that knee bent so that I don't make horrid toe-rake noises as I step to forwards. I wish.....