Advice on Cutting holes in new boots

[SkatingOnClouds]

Well my excitement over getting my new Graf Galaxy boots has faded. Although they are a Wide fitting, I cannot get them wide enough over the bunions at the ball of my feet (which measure 4 1/4" inches wide, or 10" inches around ! :oops: ).

They've been to 2 shoe places for stretching, and I honestly can't tell the difference. :frus:

I figure I have 4 options:

1. try to re-sell the boots on Ebay, and start saving for custom boots.
(unfortunately having to wear really badly fitting lousy boots in the months I try to save)

2. keep trying to stretch them. The guy has asked to try them for another week, but neither of us are confident it'll make much difference.

3. let him cut holes in them and put on what he called a balloon patch.

4. I cut holes in them. I wonder whether if I were able to remove the outer layer of leather then the inner lining might then be thin enough to stretch enough.

Naturally I am hesitant to go cutting holes in these boots, but I am getting desperate to have a decent pair of skates.

Advice, warnings, personal experiences? Anyone else out there have big bunions (or bunnies, as my daughter calls them) ?

Karen

[jenlyon60]

Rather than fully cutting holes in the outside leather, try just slashing the outside leather in the troublesome spot in an X pattern (2 diagonal slashes).

I know several skaters who have done this... one lady I know is an ex-show skater and she said it was her saving grace because she could wear her boots no matter what shape her feet were in.

If you don't like seeing the slashes, it might work to put some sort of stretchy medical tape slightly loosely over top.

[Skate@Delaware]

I have a large bunion on my feet and have had to get wider boots because of it....but haven't had the sort of problem you are describing. Heat-molding and punching out took care of the fitting problems. Have you called the company and talked to them about your boots and the fitting problem?

[slusher]

My one coach has bunions like that. She doesn't start lacing the boots until about the fourth hole up. She also had her husband carve out the inside of the boot until just the outside surface leather was remaining. This then stretched to fit the bunion without looking like there was a hole in it.

It doesn't matter what the boots look like, boot cover tights will hide it all.

[MQSeries]

Why just not bring the boots to a pro-shop professional and seek his/her advice? I would never attempt to cut up my own boots, especially if you paid a lot of money for them.

[flo]

Interesting. I don't have a bunion, but my boots cause a very painful spot on my right foot - the outside where it's the widest. I couldn't tell if it was because the boots were too loose - so that on each landing it slammed into the boot, or too tight and needed to be punched out. I had it punched out once and it was slightly better, but back to horrible now. The toe boxes and heels were also clamped as they were too big and my foot was sliding.

[Isk8NYC]

What a shame: you were so looking forward to these skates. You must be disappointed. So sorry.

Well, I'll mention the gorilla in the room: your skates are the wrong size for you. You should not have to go through these gyrations to get them to fit. If you cut them, you'll never be able to resell them. I don't know if you need customs, but I will say that you shouldn't get Reidells because they run narrow and that would be agonizing for you. I would plan on replacing the skates, IMHO.

What if you cut the INSIDE of the boot to make a little more room? That way, the leather outside stays intact. You could remove some of the lining/padding.

A few constructive suggestions for you to try first:

First, relace the skates. Skip over the holes near the bunions, so it takes the pressure off.

Second, buy or make a stretcher to push against the sore spots. Keep the stretcher in your skates whenever you're not wearing them.

Finally, I don't know if Graf Galaxy skates are heat-molded. If they are, have them remolded and put a bunion pad on before you put your feet into the skates for the molding session. (Even better, wear a heavier sock than usual as well.)

If they're not heat-molded, try putting on bunion pads and a pair of damp socks and walk around in the skates at home for a couple of minutes each day. (Use rubber guards to protect your floors.) It's an old break-in trick that might help a bit.



Come to think of it, leather shrinks as it dries out. If I remember correctly, you bought these used from Ebay, right? Maybe the leather is too dry so the sizing is off. I was at Klingbeil's one day when a woman brought in a pair of skates that hadn't been used for a long time. Don steamed them somehow and she was very happy with the result. Try using a warm mist humidifier for a couple of minutes before you put them on, just to get the leather damp, too.


Tough break. Hope you find a solution.

[dbny]

The last time I was at Klingbeils there was a woman getting her first pair. She had huge bunions, and you could see it in the shape of the boot! She could not believe the comfort when she put them on. If your bunions are really large, you will need a custom boot, because no amount of heat molding (this woman had been wearing heat molded Jacksons) is going to accomodate them.

BTW, when my daughter's skates had dried out from disuse, Don told her to pour warm water in them, dump it out and hang the skates upside down overnight. It did the trick.

[Isk8NYC]

DBNY: Hanging the skates overnight makes me laugh. I bought the twins new skates and the laces kept stretching everytime they wore the skates. After one of the helpers mentioned that I had tied the skates too loose, I declared war on the laces!

I tied a bow in the ends of each skate and hung 'em in the bathroom while everyone showered. Left them for two days and voila: No more loose laces! I did still get complaints: my husband bonked into them. He said they made nasty wind chimes!

[aussieskater]

Celliste, I'm so disappointed for you. Does anyone (coach etc) at the rink maybe have an ankle crusher? These can often get a much more substantial result than the bootmaker's stretcher. If not, then maybe you can rig one up from bits and pieces from a hardware store?

For those not familar with the terminology, an ankle crusher is made from an enormous (18-25 cm) G-clamp the same as builders use. Instead of flat plates at each end, the movable end of the clamp has a metal half-ball (about the same size as a golf ball) on the end, while the fixed end of the clamp has a half-ball hollow to match. The size of the hollow and ball set determines how much the boot is pushed out - a set comprising a small ball and shallow hollow means a small push-out, while a large set can result in lots of room (bliss).

The idea is that you note where the punching out is needed, then apply the crusher to the boot with the "half ball" inside and the hollow part outside. You screw it down as tight as you possibly can, then some more (!) Then leave the boot alone to let the stretcher work its magic. After a couple of days of this, the boot will have a very pronounced half-sphere hollow just right for bones, bunions etc. To get right down to the toe end, you'll probably need to remove the laces and tape or tie the tongue down out of the way.

It might takes a couple of weeks with an ankle crusher to push out all the bits. If, for example, the bunion is largish, one hollow might not do it; you could well need to make three hollows in a circle kind of shape to make a big pushed-out bit. This would mean 6 circles (3 on each bunion on each foot) times two days and nights on each circle, equals 12 days just on the bunions. But it's worth it.

Just a suggestion, as it means no cutting the boot, rendering it unsaleable while you save for better fitting boots in due course.

[blisspix]

I agree - though shalt not cut holes in boots. Try the least invasive methods first. It is important to have the option to be able to sell them.

I remember well waking up one morning many years ago to the sound of metal being drilled. With horror, I found that my dad had 'helpfully' drilled extra holes in the plates of my blades so that they wouldn't come loose anymore. Blades instantly worthless.

[JulieN]

I've had bunion surgery on both feet, but still have wide feet. I find that SP-Teri comes wider than Graf. I bought the Graf Dance in 5L (L is the widest). It is not as wide as my stock SP-Teri boots, which were 7B. I believe the SP Teri stock boots go up to C and maybe even D.

[SkatingOnClouds]

I must admit I was a bit embarrassed to see what people would say about the idea of cutting holes, but I don't feel so bad now.

This morning I brought them home from the shoe guy and tried them on again. They are so close to being right, but not close enough to leave them as they are.

In reply to some of the questions/comments:

Yes they are heat moldable, and I did try that first.
There is no pro-shop for thousands of miles.
Wind chimes - love it!
I asked the shoe repairer about ankle crusher, he reckoned the leather is too tough for that to work.
Not bothered about resale value - any boot that fits my bunions isn't going to fit anyone else's foot.

I am disappointed that I couldn't get them to fit straight away, but refuse to get despondent about it. I'm staying positive, because I believe I will eventually find a way to get them comfortable. The length is just perfect, and they fit so well everywhere except the ball. They are worth the work.

I like the idea of trying to cut some of the boot from the inside so that it doesn't show on the outside. For those that did that/had that done, what's the best way to make sure it is still smooth and doesn't irritate the foot on the inside?

Karen

[JulieN]

Another thing you can try is removing the insole. That may give you the extra room you need. My current SP Teri boots were custom boots made for someone else, and was just a tad small/tight, but fit fine without the insole. I've been wearing them with no insole for over 2 years. I put some small heel pads in there, but nothing between the balls of my feet and the sole.

[Casey]

Another thing you can try is removing the insole. That may give you the extra room you need. My current SP Teri boots were custom boots made for someone else, and was just a tad small/tight, but fit fine without the insole. I've been wearing them with no insole for over 2 years. I put some small heel pads in there, but nothing between the balls of my feet and the sole.
That will certainly not work on Grafs, as they have nail heads protruding a millimeter or two up out of the heel, and other random spots under the insole up along the sides of the ball (which in my skates have made interesting patterns poked into the bottom of the insole and rusted from use too.

[Skate@Delaware]

That will certainly not work on Grafs, as they have nail heads protruding a millimeter or two up out of the heel, and other random spots under the insole up along the sides of the ball (which in my skates have made interesting patterns poked into the bottom of the insole and rusted from use too.
But if the insole is a thick one, you might be able to pull it out and replace it with something like a Dr. Scholls foam insole. They are very thin.

Also; my daughter had removed the insole of her Gams (because she has flat feet) and her coach put cardboard inside because of the nails..... 8O (it's thin, like manila folder stuff)

[Mrs Redboots]

I had a serious bunion problem with my left boot, absolute agony all the way through the Mountain Cup camp. Solved with the following three solutions:

1) Punched out by putting a bottle of essential oil of lavender (which happened to be exactly the right size) across that part of the boot while it wasn't being worn. Also a couple of drops of lavender oil on the inside of the boot in the sore spot. My mum did offer to lend me her leather-stretching fluid, but I didn't quite dare.

2) Not lacing the first few holes of the boot. This really helps as it's not pulled in tight across the painful bit.

3) A gel pad worn over the bunion (it hooks over my big toe). This is pretty necessary, and a huge bore when, as yesterday, you're wearing tights under your trousers and forget to put it on.... but it is worth it!

[Isk8NYC]

Also a couple of drops of lavender oil on the inside of the boot in the sore spot. My mum did offer to lend me her leather-stretching fluid, but I didn't quite dare.

That's a great idea to soften the leather in a small area! Our local sporting goods stores sell leather softeners for baseball gloves that really do work! I actually have to keep balls in the gloves so the pockets don't close up after softening.

Neatsfoot oil is what I think they used to use, but now there's all sorts of heat-assisted and cold treatments that you could apply a little to that spot and force a bottle/container into to give it a little extra stretching.

[SkatingOnClouds]

Much as the guy in the shoe repair place seems to find me a nuisance, I returned the boots to him this morning.

I measured my feet and the boots. I need an extra 1cm (1/2 inch) to make them well and truly comfortably. That's a big ask for a second stretching, but even a 1/4 inch will make a difference.

If he can't do it, well then there are the other options discussed here.

I'll get the boots back next Tuesday, so I'll let you all know how it went.

Karen

[stardust skies]

As someone who's had bunions since she was 12 (that's what happens when kids get started in pointe shoes too early...) I will tell you that if it's not 100 percent perfect, it WILL hurt. I think 1/2 an inch of a stretch is already too much to expect for a FIRST stretching, but if it's already been stretched, I'd give up, especially since as I said in your original post on this topic, Graf (esp. anything other than Edmonton Specials) will not last you long to begin with.

My humble opinion is that you are better off selling them back (to Ebay or a used sports shop) and getting some quality boots. Since you don't have any pro shop for such a large distance, your best bet would be to get custom boots directly through a skate company- they can send you their diagrams and you can fill them out and send it back to them.

Sure, you're saying that while you're waiting, you'd have to skate in bad skates, but you're going to have to skate in bad skates anyways if you keep the Grafs (1. because Grafs are terrible and 2. cause they don't fit your bunions and if you wear something that pushes on them, it can leave you with shooting pains that go up to your knee or hip for WEEKS, I know, I've been there). Might as well try to get a little money back for them and save up for better skates, imo. Just my thoughts.

[russiet]

Celliste, I'm so disappointed for you. Does anyone (coach etc) at the rink maybe have an ankle crusher? These can often get a much more substantial result than the bootmaker's stretcher. If not, then maybe you can rig one up from bits and pieces from a hardware store?

For those not familar with the terminology, an ankle crusher is made from an enormous (18-25 cm) G-clamp the same as builders use. Instead of flat plates at each end, the movable end of the clamp has a metal half-ball (about the same size as a golf ball) on the end, while the fixed end of the clamp has a half-ball hollow to match. The size of the hollow and ball set determines how much the boot is pushed out - a set comprising a small ball and shallow hollow means a small push-out, while a large set can result in lots of room (bliss).

The idea is that you note where the punching out is needed, then apply the crusher to the boot with the "half ball" inside and the hollow part outside. You screw it down as tight as you possibly can, then some more (!) Then leave the boot alone to let the stretcher work its magic. After a couple of days of this, the boot will have a very pronounced half-sphere hollow just right for bones, bunions etc. To get right down to the toe end, you'll probably need to remove the laces and tape or tie the tongue down out of the way.

It might takes a couple of weeks with an ankle crusher to push out all the bits. If, for example, the bunion is largish, one hollow might not do it; you could well need to make three hollows in a circle kind of shape to make a big pushed-out bit. This would mean 6 circles (3 on each bunion on each foot) times two days and nights on each circle, equals 12 days just on the bunions. But it's worth it.

Just a suggestion, as it means no cutting the boot, rendering it unsaleable while you save for better fitting boots in due course.

Your boot fitter will need a machine like this:

http://www.blademaster.ca/products.asp?id=44

Here's how I punched out my ski boots. It won't work well on skate boots, but I think interesting. My skate fitter & I came up with this technique:

http://www.sendpix.com/albums/05112606/lc8thudsfa/

Specialty ski shops will have the right equipment to stretch your boot, but it requires some one with the knowledge.

The technique works better on heat moldable boots, but will work with just leather.

The boot is marked for point of maximum stretching, then heated (a hot air gun works, but there is such a thing as too much!). The boot is placed on the arm (with the ball) and a piece of leather draped over it to prevent branding. Then the arm with the cup is clamped down.

When the boot has cooled a bit, then the bubble is blended into a smooth transition.

All this being said, there are limitations. You may in fact need custom boots. You really need to find a boot fitter that knows his stuff.

My knowledge & experience stems from working in a ski shop as the "boot guru". That was years ago, but the knowledge is still there.

My own skates needed the bunion area stretched a lot. I have low volume feet (A.K.A. "boney") but bunions that would indicate a "D" width. If I bought to accomodate the "D" width, every where else would be way too loose.

Instead, I am fitted to a narrow heat moldable boot, and the bunnion area is punched out unmercifully.

Good luck.

Jon

[flippet]

Here's how I punched out my ski boots. It won't work well on skate boots, but I think interesting. My skate fitter & I came up with this technique:

http://www.sendpix.com/albums/05112606/lc8thudsfa/


That's interesting....I may try something like that to stretch my boots. I bought stock SPTeris (old-style SuperTeris) in a AA width...which is perfect for my narrow heels, but is just a smidge too narrow for the mid-section of my foot (not the ball, properly, but just behind it). I tried having them stretched, but the only equipment my pro had looked like a 'regular' shoe stretcher with bumps on it, and because of the dimensions, it only fit into the boot at an angle, and I'm pretty sure it never quite hit the right spot. (You'd think they'd make a proper BOOT stretcher..y'know, shaped like a BOOT. :roll: )

The equipment at the first link was quite nice. (Out of curiosity, how much does a thing like that cost?) I don't think I'd need that kind of thing for this pair of boots...I don't need a 'round' punch out per se, more like a 3-inch-long stretching right where the leather meets the sole. So maybe making my own block system (along with heating and maybe a leather stretching fluid) would work better.

[russiet]

http://www.sendpix.com/albums/05112619/qhmpt9sfzz/

The new pics might help. The proper shaping of the wood blocks is the most important thing.

The outer long block should be shaped to make good contact with the boot. It must spread the load out over a large area.

The inner block must engage the clamp as well as shape the boot.

The professional machine cost was well over $200. A good investment if you shape boots for a living. Too much for me to justify.

I didn't buy the ski bots locally. I did use a local ski shop for other purchases and they were gracious enough to allow me to work with their boot press. However, I didn't press it out enough. Rather than go back and ask again, I came up with my homede rig. It worked great.

If you try this youself, try practicing on some old broken down boots. When you warm the boot, do so slowly. The boot should get a little uncomfortably warm in the area to be blown out, but not hot. Also let the boot cool down a lot before you unclamp it. If you don't push it out enough, you can try again.

Lastly, let me make the disclaimer that I am in no way responsible for any bad results, and I am to be honored if the results are good.

Jon

[SkatingOnClouds]

The professional machine looks exactly what is needed here.
It is like the ankle-crusher Aussieskater suggested, only with more power.

I know the guy working on stretching my boots doesn't have anything like that, he's trying to use a general area stretching machine.

Your home-made method looks really good too. I'm not good at wood work, but I reckon I could improvise something.

Thanks for your suggestions, you inspire me to keep trying.

Karen

who no longer plays the cello, time to change from celliste to something else>

[TaBalie]

Stretching doesn't work well/at all (depends on the area of the boot your are attempting to stretch) on heat-moldable boots because you can't stretch the plastic shell -- without heat, that is.

I would re-heat mold your boots. Before you put your foot in the boot (maybe while the skate is "cookng"), pad your bunions HEAVILY with foam pads (don't use pads that compress, use pads that will keep their shape). Then as the skate cools, it leaves "room" in the bunion areas by "stretching"/molding the inner plastic shell in those problem areas.

[Mrs Redboots]

Stretching doesn't work well/at all (depends on the area of the boot your are attempting to stretch) on heat-moldable boots because you can't stretch the plastic shell -- without heat, that is.I don't know about Celliste's boots but on mine, the heat-mouldable part is only around the ankle bones; the rest of the boot is stretchable (I've done it!).

[TaBalie]

On Grafs I believe the whole foot-bed is heat moldable (at least on Edmonton). I got my heat molded wearing the pads in my problem areas, and then he did some spot heat molding to "punch" out the areas that were still bothering me. I have had skates stretched as well, but 1/2 an inch seems like a lot, and depending on where it is on the foot it could distort the stiching etc and ruin the integrity of the boot.

Also, have you tried insoles? Sometimes having your foot raised up a bit helps, since the actual lowest part of the boot is narrower than 1/4+ up, and raising your foot up a tiny bit in the skate can also relieve the pressure on the side of your foot where the bunions are (in combination with the heat-molding).

One more thing... Did you heat mold them yourself? Because I have a convection oven so I followed the directions on Rainbo, and heat-molded them myself... But it didn't seem to do too much. Then I took them in and had them heat-molded "professionally" and it was completely different! I noticed right away the big change. I know you don't live near a skate shop, but is there a ski shop or orthotic shop near you? Ski-boots have been heat-molded forever, so they should be able to help you. Also, now the new custom orthotics are heat-molded, so a specility shoe store/comfort shoe store may also do heat molding...

I guess I just think Celliste should exhaust all possibilities before doing something more permanent to the boot, expecially if she ends up selling them...

Celliste, where did you order them from? If you ordered them from Rainbo, etc, you might be able to ask them what they suggest (if anything)... I am sorry this has happened! It took awhle to get my Grafs right, but I now really like them (I have a wide foot, but am wearing the regular width--next time i would get a wider width so I wouldn't mess around so much with the heat-molding, etc).

If you do get another boot, I would get a custom, though you might have to send the boot back and forth a few times, which will be frustrating, but eventually they get it right. Someone here mentioned SP-Teri's to be wider, but my previous boots were SP-Teri Super Teri 6C, and they are smaller in length and width than my Graf Edm 5.5M -- so it probably depends on the style of boot (ie. the SP Teri line as a whole does not run wide).

Hang in there, and let us know what happens. I know this must be driving you nuts, it is awful to have painful/unwearable skates.

[aussieskater]

Here's how I punched out my ski boots. It won't work well on skate boots, but I think interesting. My skate fitter & I came up with this technique:

http://www.sendpix.com/albums/05112606/lc8thudsfa/


Yes, that's a very good variation of what I was trying to describe. Contrary to what Celliste's boot repairer said about it not being strong enough to move the leather on skates, it works brilliantly.

The trick is to screw the blighter down hard, and leave it alone for 48 hours. Then release it and see what's happened. Be aware that the leather will tend to spring back a little, but it's easy to have another go if this happens. Don't try to do it all in one hit - better to have several goes gaining a little each time.

Also, I'll echo Jon - I'm no expert, so I don't want to be blamed if it all goes wrong. (I'll let Jon take the glory if it all goes right.)

I can vouch for the G-clamp solution from personal experience - I used something similar to Jon's ski-boot photo on my Jackson Competitors, which I punched unmercifully (love that word, Jon!) around the baby toes, and the top edge of the large toes. My skate boots no longer have straight or evenly sloping sides from the mid-foot to the toes; instead each one has beautiful (at least to my toes, if not to my eyes!) round poppy bulges at the edge of each baby and large toe.

Jon, I never thought of using specially-shaped wood blocks at the ends of the G-clamp to accurately punch out the area in one hit - that's a great idea.

[russiet]

Jon, I never thought of using specially-shaped wood blocks at the ends of the G-clamp to accurately punch out the area in one hit - that's a great idea.

Neccessity.... the mother of invention.

Actually my skate boot fitter (Jonathan English out of Peabody Mass, USA) made the suggestion to me. I was familiar with the professional levered devices and was thinking of buying one. He felt sure I could use a G-clamp and wood blocks. He's from Great Britain & calls them G-clamps, as do you. We in the USA for some reason call them C-clamps. Poor penmanship I suppose.

I took his inspiration and ran with it. A clamp can exert a tremendous amount of force, it just has to be directed correctly.

Thanks for the complement. I think the majority of skaters will be reluctant to try modifying their own boots, so I'd still suggest a good boot fitter.

I was used to "blowing out" ski boots. With ski boots we would test how warm we had heated the shell by seeing if we could leave a mark with a fingernail. Any more than that & it might melt the plastic! I seem to remember a few matt finishes become glossy by mistake.