Question about the Gold FS test

[pennybeagle]

Okay, so I lent my rulebook to someone a while ago and never got it back, and instead of trying to find it on the USFSA site, I thought I'd ask here...

Can you pass the Adult Gold FS even if you miss the axel?? That is, if your "expression" score is higher than the passing standard, and your spinning and other jumps are above average, but fell on/two-footed/cheated all attempts at the axel, could you theoretically STILL pass with, say, three tenths under in the tech score and three tenths over in the artistic? Isn't it the passing total that counts? What if you add in stuff that's "harder" than the axel (like a double sal or double loop) but is not required? Do you get scored ONLY on the test elements, or do judges take the whole program into consideration?

For the sake of clarity, I am NOT planning to take this test any time soon. This is just a question I'm throwing out there because I'm curious.

[Thin-Ice]

Can you pass the Adult Gold FS even if you miss the axel?? That is, if your "expression" score is higher than the passing standard, and your spinning and other jumps are above average, but fell on/two-footed/cheated all attempts at the axel, could you theoretically STILL pass with, say, three tenths under in the tech score and three tenths over in the artistic? Isn't it the passing total that counts? What if you add in stuff that's "harder" than the axel (like a double sal or double loop) but is not required? Do you get scored ONLY on the test elements, or do judges take the whole program into consideration?



It IS possible to pass any freestyle test even if you "blow" one element as long as your expression score is high enough to make up for it.. BUT you have to have a very knowledgeable judging panel to realize this. AND you can blow all attempts of that particular element DURING the program.. but you CANNOT be asked to reskate the element after the program. If you're asked to do a reskate, you only get that ONE chance to prove you can do the element (your expression score won't make up the difference after that).

I've seen two panels at different test sessions and different rinks where the judge-in-charge (a different judge on each occasion) has informed the panel of the loophole... and asked the other judges if they want to see a reskate of that one failed element or if in their minds they think the artistic mark was high enough to make up for a not-good element.

But, in both cases he element wasn't fallen on or totally blown. One time it was a loop jump that was slightly two-footed and the other was a camel spin that was only 2-1/2 revolutions in position. And both skaters were strong, musical and had great carriage on the ice.

Both times, after the panel decided against a reskate and the test sheets were turned in, but the skater was still on the ice, the judge-in-charge had the skaters go out and do the element.. mostly to prove to them they COULD do the element in question under pressure.

Remember though, it only takes one judge to request a reskate. In one case all three judges passed the skater based only on the program performance (and the high expression mark) and in the other. two judges passed the program and the third "invited the skater to retry" the test... but I think she didn't demand a reskate because it was the last day of testing before the regionals deadline.. and she knew the skater really did belong at the next level.

[coskater64]

A harder jump like a 2sow or 2toe is not a required element and will not make up for the axel if you miss it. Also, if you can do either of those jumps clean then you have no excuse for not doing an axel since that is exactly what those jumps are..transfer of weight jumps use the exact same motion of the axel and incorrect 2toe is called a toe-axel for a reason. You must do the required elements.

The expression mark as it is my understanding can fail you but cannot pass you. I was told this by my coach who is a former SR level judge and I will admit to seeing the second mark help I have never seen a skater pass a FS test without doing all of the required elements cleanly and correctly. Even though the quality might be questionable or brillant depending on the skater.

You have 2 attempts to get the element right 1 warmup and 1 attempt. Having just passed my intermediate FS I worked very hard on consistency on the reskate being able to land all the doubles and combos on the first try and second try for a reskate. This is how I passed and is what worked for me the other thing to consider is: do you want to skate gold w/out a solid axel in some groups like IV or V you don't need it as much. In the younger groups you need an axel for gold to be even minimally competitive with the group and you need a double or two as well. Remember as of 2007 doubles w/ more than 1/4 cheat or hook will count as a single if you pop a 2 sow attempt you will get .4 for a sow and -3 goe which equals .1 that's a waltz jump, the lesson do what you do well. INMHO.

[FrankR]

A harder jump like a 2sow or 2toe is not a required element and will not make up for the axel if you miss it. Also, if you can do either of those jumps clean then you have no excuse for not doing an axel since that is exactly what those jumps are..transfer of weight jumps use the exact same motion of the axel and incorrect 2toe is called a toe-axel for a reason. You must do the required elements.

The expression mark as it is my understanding can fail you but cannot pass you. I was told this by my coach who is a former SR level judge and I will admit to seeing the second mark help I have never seen a skater pass a FS test without doing all of the required elements cleanly and correctly. Even though the quality might be questionable or brillant depending on the skater.

You have 2 attempts to get the element right 1 warmup and 1 attempt. Having just passed my intermediate FS I worked very hard on consistency on the reskate being able to land all the doubles and combos on the first try and second try for a reskate. This is how I passed and is what worked for me the other thing to consider is: do you want to skate gold w/out a solid axel in some groups like IV or V you don't need it as much. In the younger groups you need an axel for gold to be even minimally competitive with the group and you need a double or two as well. Remember as of 2007 doubles w/ more than 1/4 cheat or hook will count as a single if you pop a 2 sow attempt you will get .4 for a sow and -3 goe which equals .1 that's a waltz jump, the lesson do what you do well. INMHO.

Hi Leslie,

After reading the post by Thin-Ice I went to the USFS website and did some research. I read through the judges' manual posted at the following link.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/00S-PSchool%20Manual2-02.pdf

On page 19, it clearly states the following:
"JUDGING FREE SKATING TESTS
ONLY ONE OR TWO ELEMENTS MAY BE RETRIED ONCE FOLLOWING THE FREE SKATING PROGRAM WITH
MUSIC. In other words, the skater has one chance to repeat up to two required elements which were missed in the
program with music. One element may not be given two retries.

If only one serious error is present after the test has been skated, judges have the option of using the second
(Presentation) mark, if warranted, to pass the test. Once a reskate is requested, the element must be successfully
completed in order for the test to pass."


Frank

[sk8er1964]

When I took my Gold fs, I had a slight two foot on my only axel attempt. Since I didn't get the reskate, I figured that I had failed. My coach thought everything else was good enough, and was really confused as to why I did not get the reskate. Boy was I happy when my coach got the sheet and it showed a pass by all three judges! (Especially since we were on deadline to be able to skate at AN, and the next available test session would have been out of state.)

[NoVa Sk8r]

Nice sleuthing, Frank. 8-)

Off topic--I couldn't help but giggle at the wording on page 20, concerning the Elements of Pair Skating (Lifts):
"In all cases, the entire lift must show complete control and sureness rather than a struggle for survival." :P

[coskater64]

Frank R you are correct, but.....you are allowed a warm up and then you can do the element missed. The warm up is always helpful and you should always take it. I saw a SR fs and the skater after a 4.oo program missed her 2 lutz took no warm up and missed that 2 lutz again had she taken the warm up maybe she would have pulled it off.

[FrankR]

Frank R you are correct, but.....you are allowed a warm up and then you can do the element missed. The warm up is always helpful and you should always take it. I saw a SR fs and the skater after a 4.oo program missed her 2 lutz took no warm up and missed that 2 lutz again had she taken the warm up maybe she would have pulled it off.

Hi Leslie,

I agree that the warm-up is very important prior to any test and you're also right that the required elements on a test are a vital part of any free test.

However, the point I was trying to make was that if pennybeagle were to test Adult Gold free and hit all of her other elements and skate a good program despite missing the axel, according to the judges' manual, the judges do have the option to pass her by giving her a higher second mark provided they feel the overall performance was acceptable. I will say that I haven't seen that happen first-hand but apparently the judges are allowed to make that call on a case by case basis.

Frank

[coskater64]

Well-maybe....generally for the gold fs which is the highest adult fs, they want all the elements, the axel is a big deal for adults, and my coach might just be fibbing w/ me but I would never count on a present mark if I couldn't do the elements. Mind you, that's just me...I would not take my fs test if I could not do all the elements well or at least 2 out of 3 as a general rule. If someone wants to do it...then by all means but what to expect...maybe if they do a solo axel and then an axel combo and pull off the combo it would show they could do the jump...ya never know. The gold is the big FS for the adults I wouldn't take it if I couldn't do everything well. Just my opionion.

[PattyP]

On my first attempt I fell on the axel in the program and in the re-skate. I didn't take the warm up they offered me prior to the re-skate because I thought I would only get more nervous. It was probably a mistake. I was failed by all three judges, no surprise there.

On my second test attempt, I landed a beauty in the the warm-up that all the judges witnessed. I know this becasue I looked at them and said "can I keep that one?" and they all laughed. I did a slight two-foot on my axel in the program, but skated all other elements very well. They didn't ask me to re-skate the axel and all 3 passed me. Whew.

[Debbie S]

Thanks, guys, this has been an informative discussion. I've never tested FS with a program (just Pre-Bronze, which is elements performed individually) but I may soon (if I can ever pass the blasted Bronze moves!).

I'm wondering what would happen if I were to land a jump (like the loop) that was clean but the judges thought it might not be either high enough or with flow out on the landing or possibly a hair cheated. Would I be asked to reskate it? And is it possible for the judges to fail a test b/c of either a lack of sureness or speed, or posture, etc., without even asking for a reskate if there were only 1 or 2 elements missed (or maybe everything was completed)? Obviously, the judges have an idea in their mind of how a skater at each level should look - of course, the judges may not see many adults so their ideas could be a little skewed (I'd hate to think they'd want to see a Prelim FS kid out there when I test).

And what if you take your chance to warm-up an element in the reskate, do it perfectly, and then miss it in the actual reskate? Would the judges consider the first one at all - although I imagine that probably varies with the judge.

I haven't watched any adult freestyle tests (other than Pre-Bronze), so I'm curious about what others have seen or experienced.

[NoVa Sk8r]

Hi Leslie,

I agree that the warm-up is very important prior to any test and you're also right that the required elements on a test are a vital part of any free test.

However, the point I was trying to make was that if pennybeagle were to test Adult Gold free and hit all of her other elements and skate a good program despite missing the axel, according to the judges' manual, the judges do have the option to pass her by giving her a higher second mark provided they feel the overall performance was acceptable. I will say that I haven't seen that happen first-hand but apparently the judges are allowed to make that call on a case by case basis.

FrankActually, page 9 states: "Each of these tests has required jumps, spins and steps, all of which must be performed [emphasis added] without major error in order for the skater to pass the test. At the completion of a free skating test, any two required elements may be retried, without music, in order to give the skater an additional chance to pass."

The following serious errors will cause a required elements to be considered failed by the judges:
1. Fall
2. Incomplete rotation in a jump, whether on the takeoff or the landing
3. Landing on two feet
4. Touchdown of the hand or free foot needed to save the skater from falling
5. Blatant change of edge before a jump (such as turning a Lutz into a Flip)
6. Turn between the two jumps of a combination
7. Fewer than required revolutions in a spin, or failure to attain required positions
8. Omission of a required element or a significant portion thereof (example: combination spin without required number of
position changes)

[FrankR]

Actually, page 9 states: "Each of these tests has required jumps, spins and steps, all of which must be performed [emphasis added] without major error in order for the skater to pass the test. At the completion of a free skating test, any two required elements may be retried, without music, in order to give the skater an additional chance to pass."

The following serious errors will cause a required elements to be considered failed by the judges:
1. Fall
2. Incomplete rotation in a jump, whether on the takeoff or the landing
3. Landing on two feet
4. Touchdown of the hand or free foot needed to save the skater from falling
5. Blatant change of edge before a jump (such as turning a Lutz into a Flip)
6. Turn between the two jumps of a combination
7. Fewer than required revolutions in a spin, or failure to attain required positions
8. Omission of a required element or a significant portion thereof (example: combination spin without required number of
position changes)

Hey there,

Yup. I noticed that too. Page 9 and 19 seem to be saying different things. I'm thinking some "major faults" would be more acceptable than others if the judges are going to use the rule as stated on page 19. I think that popping a jump would definitely lead to a re-skate.


Consider the following examples. Suppose skater A tests Adult Gold free and lands 1/4 turn short on the axel but everything else is great and he or she really sold the program. I'm thinking the judges would be more inclined to use the second mark to pass skater A in this case because skater A has shown that he or she can probably do an acceptable axel or is at least very close. Now, suppose skater B tests Adult Gold free and does a waltz jump instead of an axel and everything else is wonderful. In the case of skater B, I think the judges will ask for a reskate because skater B has yet to demonstrate that he or she can produce this particular required element or is even close to producing it.

At least that's how I see it. I'll have to ask a friend of mine how this works. She's a judge.

I'll keep you posted.

Frank

[NoVa Sk8r]

Yup. I noticed that too. Page 9 and 19 seem to be saying different things. I'm thinking some "major faults" would be more acceptable than others if the judges are going to use the rule as stated on page 19. I think that popping a jump would definitely lead to a re-skate.

Consider the following examples. Suppose skater A tests Adult Gold free and lands 1/4 turn short on the axel but everything else is great and he or she really sold the program. I'm thinking the judges would be more inclined to use the second mark to pass skater A in this case because skater A has shown that he or she can probably do an acceptable axel or is at least very close. Now, suppose skater B tests Adult Gold free and does a waltz jump instead of an axel and everything else is wonderful. In the case of skater B, I think the judges will ask for a reskate because skater B has yet to demonstrate that he or she can produce this particular required element or is even close to producing it. In the new judging system (will this ever be applied to testing?!), a 1/4 cheat is allowed. ;)

I think there is a big difference bewteen what the rulebook says and what the judges do. I saw someone 2-foot the axel and pass without being asked for a reskate. But that was many years ago.

[nja]

It may depend on where you test. When I tried my Gold FS test, I missed the axel in the program. They gave me a reskate, but I missed it in the reskate as well. Neither time did I fall, but the landings were flat and somewhat cheated (unlike how I was landing it in practice earlier that same day, grrrh!). Notes on two of the three judges test sheets specifically stated that they would not pass a Gold FS test without a clean axel. In fact, one failed me .5 under for missing the one element. This same judge passed me .1 over on the expression. I really got the feeling that if I had landed the axel and missed one of the other elements, the end result would have been a different story.

And my coach can't figure out why I'm a head case over the axel!!

[doubletoe]

Frank R you are correct, but.....you are allowed a warm up and then you can do the element missed. The warm up is always helpful and you should always take it. I saw a SR fs and the skater after a 4.oo program missed her 2 lutz took no warm up and missed that 2 lutz again had she taken the warm up maybe she would have pulled it off.

Yes, you are allowed to warm up the element before re-skating it, although the judges need to know that you are warming it up first so that they don't count your warmup attempt. My coach says whenever he's seen a skater use the warmup on the re-skate, she always lands the jump on the warmup attempt, then misses it when doing it for real. So he tells me, "Don't take the warmup, just do it!" LOL!

[coskater64]

That's why I always make sure I can do 2 in a row, like Patty P said it was helpful that the judges saw her land a clean axel, she can do it and has passed the test. I used my warm up and then the attempt on my Intermediate but that was for a spin. I did the 2 sow on the first try and took that.

As for the new rules and current rules- greater than 1/4 cheat is not correct and with the new rules, that's a waltz jump. When I took my gold fs for the first time I tripped on my foot work and couldn't hold the combo spin long enough and then was just-- not very well presented, I landed 2 axels one solo one combo-so who can say. I find putting things before my harder jumps helpful, spread eagle or bauer before an axel, even a mazurka or a falling leaf it distracts me from the jump and makes me focus on other things beside the jump.

[pinkdblonde]

A harder jump like a 2sow or 2toe is not a required element and will not make up for the axel if you miss it. Also, if you can do either of those jumps clean then you have no excuse for not doing an axel.

Sorry, but I will have to disagree with you there. My doubles are way more consistent than my axel. I mean maybe I am an exception, but I am mental when it comes to the axel. :??

[Thin-Ice]

I'm wondering what would happen if I were to land a jump (like the loop) that was clean but the judges thought it might not be either high enough or with flow out on the landing or possibly a hair cheated. Would I be asked to reskate it? And is it possible for the judges to fail a test b/c of either a lack of sureness or speed, or posture, etc., without even asking for a reskate if there were only 1 or 2 elements missed (or maybe everything was completed)? Obviously, the judges have an idea in their mind of how a skater at each level should look - of course, the judges may not see many adults so their ideas could be a little skewed (I'd hate to think they'd want to see a Prelim FS kid out there when I test).

And what if you take your chance to warm-up an element in the reskate, do it perfectly, and then miss it in the actual reskate? Would the judges consider the first one at all - although I imagine that probably varies with the judge.


I guess this whole discussion hinges on what you consider "blowing an element".

There are rulebook guidelines for this.. called "serious errors" and "minor errors". If you omit an element or fall or touch your hand down on the ice when landing a jump, or fall out of a spin, that's considered a "serious error", and you fail that element. But if you wobble a bit, or slightly skim the toe on the ice as you're checking out or miss less than one-revolution on a spin, that's a "minor error". The exact break-down is listed in the rulebook. Some skaters might consider what the rulebook and judges consider a "minor error" a huge success, while others might think it was a catastrophe.

For a serious error, the judges MUST fail the element, (ask for a reskate of that element or fail the test based on that failure or be so very impressed by the rest of the test) but for a minor error, they use their own judgment... and can ask for a reskate, or allow a test to pass based on the second mark (but there will still be comments on the minor error element on the test sheet).

If you are invited to reskate an element, and you choose to take a warm-up and you do it well, and then fall or otherwise commit a serious error on the actual reskate, it's supposed to be a failure. You do NOT get credit for the warm-up... so the actual reskate is a do-or-die attempt. (Of course, I've also seen some lenient judges on a test deadline say to a skater who did not do a warm-up and then fails the element "THAT was your warm-up, right?".)

As for being invited to retry a test because of lack of flow, speed, etc., yes it IS possible, since judges are told to check the guidelines for passing a test including flow, speed and test-level quality. For example, the Pre-Pre/Pre-Bronze are considered "encouragement tests" and they say at the top of the form the skater should show basic knowledge of pattern and correct edges, but that doesn't mean you have to do them perfectly. As you progress in test levels, the guidelines (which are printed at the top of the test pages) increase in difficulty levels: "reasonable", "good", "very good" and "excellent" in terms of performance levels.

And this entire topic mirrors a discussion we had at judges' school last May... it was interesting to hear what some of the top-level judges said. Usually they were in favor of giving the skater the benefit of the doubt, while some of the mid-level judges were much stricter on their interpretations. The overwhelming guideline most judges finally agreed to was "Does this skater look ready to start working on the next test level?". It was a very interesting debate that officially lasted through the Q&A session and continued unofficially through most of our lunch break.

[Mrs Redboots]

Yes, you are allowed to warm up the element before re-skating it, although the judges need to know that you are warming it up first so that they don't count your warmup attempt. My coach says whenever he's seen a skater use the warmup on the re-skate, she always lands the jump on the warmup attempt, then misses it when doing it for real. So he tells me, "Don't take the warmup, just do it!" LOL!Although when that happens I have known judges take the warm-up, since they have seen that the skater can do the required element!

[FrankR]

Sorry, but I will have to disagree with you there. My doubles are way more consistent than my axel. I mean maybe I am an exception, but I am mental when it comes to the axel. :??

Hey there,

I don't think you're an exception. Taking off facing forward is a scary thing. I was chatting with a junior lady at our rink a few weeks ago. This young lady has a double axel and has been doing through triple lutz for a while now and she was telling me that she still gets the willies as she's going up for her first axel of the day when she warms up.

I've been doing axel for a while now and I also get the willies but I've learned to push that feeling aside and just let the jump go. I still miss them from time to time but it's not the frightening "Oh God I hope I don't get killed when this lands!" variety. :lol:

Take care,

Frank

[doubletoe]

Although when that happens I have known judges take the warm-up, since they have seen that the skater can do the required element!

Not our judges, unfortunately. :(

[jenlyon60]

a year or so ago I believe there was specific guidance put out to make sure it was clear to all parties whether the candidate who was doing the reskated element was doing a "warm-up" or doing the "one that counts"

Since then, at least at my club, it's been very clear which is which, with a specific question "do you want a warm-up" and "okay do it" or similar.

[mikawendy]

I was once asked to reskate an element on a moves test, and I asked the judge in charge if I could warm it up, and was told no, but that I could talk to my coach. I knew the rulebook said I was entitled to a reskate, but I didn't feel I was in a position to insist on this (I wasn't very familiar with how tests are run then).

I doubt my having the chance to warm up the element in that case would have resulted in a pass (it was a shaky element to begin with for me), and had I passed then instead of getting a retry on the test, I probably would not have been ready to work on the moves from the next level anyway....

[Spreadeagle]

I don't think warmups are allowed on moves tests, only on FS tests. On moves tests you are only allowed a reskate for one element, where as on FS it's two. Seems stricter, but, on moves tests it is the sum of all elements that determines whether or not you pass, so strong elements can make up for weak ones. Not so on the FS test.

[jenlyon60]

I don't think warmups are allowed on moves tests, only on FS tests. On moves tests you are only allowed a reskate for one element, where as on FS it's two. Seems stricter, but, on moves tests it is the sum of all elements that determines whether or not you pass, so strong elements can make up for weak ones. Not so on the FS test.

I was going to check my rulebook this morning to be certain, but I'm pretty sure that's the way it is. A skater may be allowed to talk to their coach before the MIF element reskate, though, to explain to the coach what the judge(s) requesting the reskate wants to see. Or at least that's how we do it at my club.

[Debbie S]

I was going to check my rulebook this morning to be certain, but I'm pretty sure that's the way it is. A skater may be allowed to talk to their coach before the MIF element reskate, though, to explain to the coach what the judge(s) requesting the reskate wants to see. Or at least that's how we do it at my club.
OK, so to clarify, a skater may not practice a moves element in any way before the reskate? So if, for example, the judges tell me I need to reskate the 5-step mohawk b/c my 4th step was flat, or the power 3's b/c they didn't like my 3-turns (hanging free leg), I couldn't practice the 3rd to 4th step transition or do a correct 3-turn right by the area where my coach was standing (in other words, not actually where the test pattern is, but in a corner-type area)?

Actually, I did apparently step to a flat on step #4 in the 5-step when I recently tested Bronze MIF, but I passed the move anyway. I'm trying to correct that problem, though, b/c I know I can't count on the judges being that forgiving in the future.

[jenlyon60]

I was wrong... The last sentence of TR23.01 states "A brief rest and warm-up is permitted before the reskate is performed." Brief = exactly that... it's not like the skater gets a full 4 or 5 minute warm-up....

additionally....

TR23.01.A "After a MIF test only one (1) element may be reskated. The reskate may consist of the entire element of a portion of the element."