Straight or Crossed? :?: [Archive]

singerskates

10-25-2005, 11:56 PM

Hmm? What could this three be about?

Blades.

I've never tried cross picked blades yet. I'm wondering what the difference is in jumping, spinning and footwork.

The blades I have now are John Wilson Pattern 99's.

I think I'm going to have Ultima Elite's for my new Gam Ultra's but I'm not sure because I sent in an email to the boot fitter at the proshop where I ordered them saying if that if there wasn't more than a $100 difference in price that I would stay with the Elite's but if they were more than $100 difference, I would want to go with the Legacy which have crossed picks.

Anyway, spill you beens on the blades you have and whether they are straight toe picks or crossed?

What do you find to be good for your and why?

singerskates

Canskater

10-26-2005, 06:36 AM

Hello:

I am currently using Ultima Freestyle blades, and prior to that I had MK Pro blades, both of which have cross cut picks. I am an edge jumper and find that the cross-cut teeth help with toe jumps ... which are not my strong suit.

-- sheilagh

doubletoe

10-26-2005, 01:24 PM

I have MK Gold Star blades and the cross cut pick design is one of the reasons I chose them. They have good "grab" so I can get a good pick on a toeloop takeoff even if I don't pick perfectly straight. I love them for that reason, but I honestly can't imagine that the toepick design would make any difference for anything other than toe jumps.

singerskates

10-26-2005, 05:24 PM

Well after reading how cross cut picks help for toe jumps, I think I'm open to them. I don't have a problem with my toe loop with straight picks but maybe the flip and lutz might get cleaner.

Beside, I phoned my boot fitter in London, ON (I live in Windsor) and found out that she anticipated that I might change my mind on the Elite's since I'm no where near triple jumps and only going to be starting on doubles after I return to the ice. I'm getting the Legacy's. Why pay all that money for a blade I really don't need?

Wish I would have been sensible about boots and blades back when I bought my Edmonton Specials and Wilson Pattern 99's. I wasted all that money just because my coach told me to buy them. I had a different coach at the time and didn't do the research on what I would need or would be closest to my level. Who needs an Olympic Elite type boot and blade when you're just learning singles? A matter a fact who needs that when you're about to learn double jumps?

I still am curious as to what others are using for blades and whether they've used both crosscut pics and/or straight cut pics. What about toe work in footwork and so on? Jumps mustn't be the only things that crosscut pics help.

singerskates

Casey

10-26-2005, 05:53 PM

I don't have a problem with my toe loop with straight picks but maybe the flip and lutz might get cleaner.
Not unless you're missing the pick. They won't do anything to improve the jump except offer some extra insurance that the toepick actually sticks well into the ice. I've skated on straight cut blades too and honestly can't tell any difference, and I prefer the appearance of the straight-cut (lol, I know that's no reason to buy one blade over another though).

I also imagine that it might make more of a difference for lightweight kids.

blisspix

10-26-2005, 07:37 PM

I can't imagine it makes a huge difference, but I've only used cross-cut. I used to do double flips in MK single stars (cross-cut) so anything is possible. ;) Blades I've used are Single Star, Cor Ace (briefly), Phantom

doubletoe

10-26-2005, 11:08 PM

Wish I would have been sensible about boots and blades back when I bought my Edmonton Specials and Wilson Pattern 99's. I wasted all that money just because my coach told me to buy them.
singerskates

How did you find the Pattern 99's for spinning, since they are a larger radius blade? I'm a bit surprised your coach recommended them.

Kristin

10-27-2005, 06:35 AM

Brigitte,

I really don't think that you need cross-cut toe pick blades. If the single flip & lutz aren't clean yet, you just need to work on technique. In your case, don't spend any additional money on blades if you don't have to. Spending more time on the ice working on the technique is all you need.

In terms of blades, I have Vision blades (cheaper version of Phantom) and these are great. I land all my singles (thru clean lutz-loop) with this blade and there are no cross-cut picks. There are a lot of kids that I know that were comfortably landing double axels in this blade (including Alissa Czisny a few yrs ago she and her sis Amber both had Visions and were doing just fine in them).

Best wishes in your recovery from your back injury this year! Hope to see you back on the ice soon!
-Kristin

Casey

10-29-2005, 05:40 AM

According to John Watts Skates, cross-cut toe picks actually have *less* grip than straight-cut, opposite to the common perception:

"Why do some blades have cross-cut teeth and what difference do they make?
Cross-cut teeth will provide a skater with less grip on toe jumps and footwork. The reason for this is that when the toe rake is placed into the ice, the small teeth are unable to grip with the same effect as clean cut teeth. Our Classic blade has cross-cut teeth because it is designed for the novice skater who will not be travelling as fast and will not want tremendous grip during the early stages of technical development . The other blade that features cross-cut teeth is the Evolution. The reason for this is that the unique protruding picks on this blade produce so much grip that there would be insufficient time to transfer body weight without the cross-cut teeth at the top of the toe rake."

Isk8NYC

10-29-2005, 10:31 AM

I have Gold Seals with the cross-cut picks.

I didn't like Pattern 99's because of the rocker.

Didn't really notice a difference in jumping, but my spins improved tremendously.

jumpingsrimp

10-29-2005, 08:22 PM

hey there

The cross picks are only going to affect the way you jump really. It will have nothing to do with the spinning the part about the blade that will affect the spinning will be the rocker and the Patt 99 have a good rocker for spinning i mean Elvis always had Patt 99 Blades and he had good spins. however the gold seal are a great blade for spinning becasue of the rocker. BUt umm if you are looking for more grab into the ice why dont you try a Patt 99 K pick blade. There are so many blades out there now its just really what you feel best in i guess. Also if you are having trouble jumping or maybe even spinnig it might be because you are not balanced on your blades. Because you are be held on such a small serface area if you are not balanced right the you could be leaning in or out on your blades. This will case your skates to brack down faster and it can also case pain in the leg. thats a little off topic but its alwasy good to knwo

well good luck

singerskates

10-30-2005, 12:15 AM

How did you find the Pattern 99's for spinning, since they are a larger radius blade? I'm a bit surprised your coach recommended them.

The Pattern 99's were great for spinning. The only reason I'm not getting them again is that I'm not working right now and can't afford them. If I were to win the lottery, I would buy the boots that Alissia Cyssney(sp) has and those blades where you can switch the bottems. But I think those are made by Jackson and my feet still don't fit in Jacksons unless I buy customs. But if I had the cash, I'd find something else.

I've looked at both the Ultima Elite's and the Legacy and the rockers are the same as the Pattern 99's with rockers of 8" and the same profile. The only difference I see is that the Elite is made of stronger steel and the picks are slightly bigger. But is that worth spending $220 more than the Legacy's. I could try to buy them through the internet? There's a website in BC that has some good prices.

The reason I'm replacing the blades is because I had to buy new boots. My boots were worn down and warped badly from day one (Summer 2001 or 2002 I forget) which caused me to continuelly lean inward on both feet but mostly on my right skate. I tried to keep my Pattern 99 but they just won't fit. They are too long.

Off-ice all my jumps up to lutz are spot on. Even in the pool with slipppery pool liners, my jumps are on. I just had too much lean onto my inside edge in my warped boots.

PS: Having two herniated discs didn't help me when I was trying to check my jumps either. Since Feb. 14, I was litterly doing my jumps, spins and turns without checking them in the sholders.

stardust skies

11-01-2005, 03:44 AM

I have Gold Seals with the cross-cut picks.

I didn't like Pattern 99's because of the rocker.

Didn't really notice a difference in jumping, but my spins improved tremendously.

Pattern 99's and Gold Seals have the same size rockers, though...

Onto the actual topic, I prefer cross cut toepicks. The Pattern 99 toepick is straight cut and I don't know if it provides more or less grip in the end, but I do know that it's a nuisance if you ever tend to skid on your toe/flip/lutz entrances. That top toepick is pretty easy to miss or tap in with sideways, especially when you're going faster and doing bigger jumps.
It may not have been intended that way by the company, but I think I get much better toe-tapping grip with my Gold Seals (cross cut) than I ever did with any other straight-cut blade.

2loop2loop

11-01-2005, 04:52 AM

Pattern 99's and Gold Seals have the same size rockers, though...

Don't confuse rocker and radius. Pattern 99 and Gold Seal have the same *radius* (i.e. the curvature over the length of the blade). The *rocker* is where the curvature increases at the front of the blade to allow turns and spinning and can vary quite a lot between different blade models.

John

stardust skies

11-01-2005, 05:40 PM

Don't confuse rocker and radius. Pattern 99 and Gold Seal have the same *radius* (i.e. the curvature over the length of the blade). The *rocker* is where the curvature increases at the front of the blade to allow turns and spinning and can vary quite a lot between different blade models.

John

That's completely incorrect. "Radius" refers to "r.o.h" or "radius of hollow" which means...how big of a curve is sharpened into your blades, and that's done at your pro shop, and you can switch it anytime you want (and it doesn't just curve at the front of the blade- nothing curves only at the front of the blade, the radius of hollow is the size of the curve sharpened on your entire blade). Any blade comes with a factory grind, and they differ from blade to blade, but when buying said blade, they can be re-ground to any radius of hollow you want. The typical sharpenings are 1/2, 7/16, 3/8 and 5/16 (measured in inches). There's others, but these are the ones you hear about most often. The Pattern 99 comes from the factory with a 7/16, and the Gold Seal comes with a 5/16. Typically, most advanced skaters will switch the Gold Seal r.o.h. back down to 7/16 to skate on them.

Rockers on the other hand are measured in feet, and are based upon how big a circle the blade is calibrated on. The two typical rocker sizes are 7ft and 8ft, with a popular "anomaly" being the Coronation Comet at 8 1/2 ft. Both the Pattern 99's and the Gold Seals have 8 ft rockers. 8 ft rockers are known for being more difficult to spin on but giving better edge control and speed. They're mainly for more advanced skaters. 7 ft rockers are great all around and intermediate blades- easier to spin on, easier to control, not as much speed. The MK Professionals and John Wilson Coronation Aces both have 7ft rockers.

If you go to riedellskates.com and look up the blades, you will see Pattern 99 and Gold Seal do have the same rocker, and that's the part that is important, as r.o.h. is something that can be and is always changed according to the skater once the blade arrives. The rocker is the deciding factor in what blade to get.

singerskates

11-01-2005, 10:16 PM

Not unless you're missing the pick. They won't do anything to improve the jump except offer some extra insurance that the toepick actually sticks well into the ice. I've skated on straight cut blades too and honestly can't tell any difference, and I prefer the appearance of the straight-cut (lol, I know that's no reason to buy one blade over another though).

I also imagine that it might make more of a difference for lightweight kids.

Oh, I never had a problem with hitting the pick of my blade on the ice, but on where I'd pick on the flip and lutz. I got decent height for a prelim skater but because I often placed the pick in at the wrong spot on the ice, I didn't always make it all the way around. Then there were the landings on two feet when I did make it all the way around. Bad landings had to do with mostly my warped Graf Edmonton Specials, which I should have never bought because I'm probably never ever going to do a triple jump in my life time anyway, that caused me to fall badly onto my inside edges especially on my right foot.

I thought going for a boot and a blade that would allow me to do all the double jumps when and if I ever get to them, would be enough for me. Plus, paying $750 CDN instead of $1500 feels alot better. That's what I paid for my Pattern 99 and Grafs; $1500. I bet the Pattern 99's and Grafs would probably set me back about at least $2000 or so now if I were to buy those.

2loop2loop

11-02-2005, 04:27 AM

That's completely incorrect.

No, not completely incorrect. You are clearly just used to different terminology. Many skaters (even in this thread), and websites, refer to the overall curvature of the blade as the radius (as distinct from the radius of hollow) which makes perfect sense as it refers to the radius of a circle described by the curve of the blade. Funnily enough after 12 years on the ice, I am familiar with what a radius of hollow is and have never yet found myself asking my sharpener for a 8ft regrind!

(and it doesn't just curve at the front of the blade- nothing curves only at the front of the blade, the radius of hollow is the size of the curve sharpened on your entire blade).

If you care to re-read what I actually wrote, it was that the curvature of the blade *increases* at the front of the blade. This is what I would term the rocker of the blade and is what facilitates spinning and turning. Perhaps (though I may be wrong) this is what Isk8NYC was referring to when he/she said that he/she didn't like the rocker on pattern 99's.

John

stardust skies

11-02-2005, 05:40 AM

No, not completely incorrect. You are clearly just used to different terminology. Many skaters (even in this thread), and websites, refer to the overall curvature of the blade as the radius (as distinct from the radius of hollow) which makes perfect sense as it refers to the radius of a circle described by the curve of the blade. Funnily enough after 12 years on the ice, I am familiar with what a radius of hollow is and have never yet found myself asking my sharpener for a 8ft regrind!

I'm not saying you are inexperienced, or even that you don't know what you are talking about, I'm just saying you've got the wrong words. It's not "different terminology", there's just one word for it. It's not like you're trying to call a spiral an arabesque and I'm saying it can only be a spiral. Some things are left up to terminology. Not this, though. Something incorrect doesn't become any less so just because a lot of people think it's right. A lot of people use "wierd" instead of "weird" and it still doesn't make it a word. I'm just saying...the blade manufacturers use the term "rocker", not "radius". In fact, every brand's manufacturers use that term, so it's not as if John Wilson could be mistaken. It's called a rocker. That's what it's called, and if others wanna use another word to describe it then that is fine, but it's still wrong, and they should be prepared for people to assume they don't know this fact (or they would use the right word) and try to correct them. That's all. I wasn't trying to make a big deal, it's just helpful when ordering a specific thing to know and understand the terms you need. You're not gonna order chicken mcnuggets at the drive-thru and then wonder why you didn't get a cheeseburger instead because clearly, everyone knows that is what you meant. :oops:

2loop2loop

11-02-2005, 08:58 AM

Why are you so hung up on this? If you get 20 skaters in a room talking about blades some will talk about a 7ft rocker, some a 7ft radius, some will even go so far as to say 7ft rocker radius, the terms are used pretty much interchangably. Different terminology! Who are you to say who is right and who is wrong.

http://www.johnwatts.force9.co.uk/evolution.htm

John

Mrs Redboots

11-02-2005, 09:34 AM

And anyway, Ross dee-ahh, don't forget that some of us talk about cherry flips, 3-jumps, parallel spins, teapots and drags, and others talk of toe-loops, waltz jumps, camel spins, shoot-the-ducks and lunges....

singerskates

11-02-2005, 11:06 AM

doubletoe

11-02-2005, 03:47 PM

[QUOTE=stardust skies]It's called a rocker. That's what it's called, and if others wanna use another word to describe it then that is fine, but it's still wrong.[QUOTE]

I've heard it called both a rocker and a radius, and since you are talking about a section of a circle, it would make perfectly good sense to use the term "radius." I think the reason most people choose to call it a rocker instead of a radius is because a lot of people say "radius" when referring to "radius of hollow" (the depth of the grind between the inside and outside edges on the blade) and that can sometimes lead to some confusion.

icedancer2

11-02-2005, 04:46 PM

I'm trying not to be redundant, but in the Sticky at the head of this forum is the following article about blades:

http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=17895

Interesting to me that the author refers to the rocker as "rocker radius"(!) and also states that no matter what the manufacturer says the rocker is for a particular blade, there is a variation from blade to blade, even within the different styles.

I think a person's preference for different rockers is just as much dependent on their weight/height ratio as it is to their skill as a skater and what they are using the blades for...

Remember -- one man's ceiling is another man's floor" and all of that.

Rock on! :roll:

twokidsskatemom

11-02-2005, 05:33 PM

http://www.johnwatts.force9.co.uk/freedom.htm

mike weiss uses a watts blade, he helped make the blade himself.Called Freedom blade.

edited for poor typing...

NoVa Sk8r

11-02-2005, 06:13 PM

http://www.johnwatts.force9.co.uk/freedom.htm

mike weiss uses a watts blade, he help make the blade himself.Called Freedom blade.And hey, that's Loops and my first pairs coach (Ross) featured with the blades. 8-)

twokidsskatemom

11-02-2005, 06:21 PM

And hey, that's Loops and my first pairs coach (Ross) featured with the blades. 8-)
No way !!!!! Do you know what he thinks about that blade? We have a signed one from MIke W, the first one that was made.We would love to find someone who has used it and hear what they think, pros and cons .

stardust skies

11-02-2005, 06:38 PM

NoVa Sk8r

11-02-2005, 06:54 PM

No way !!!!! Do you know what he thinks about that blade? We have a signed one from MIke W, the first one that was made.We would love to find someone who has used it and hear what they think, pros and cons .Way! 8-)
I'm heading to the rink right now--if I see him, I'll ask.
If not, perhaps Loops can provide more info; Ross is her primary coach.

icedancer2

11-02-2005, 07:45 PM

You know, whenever I see this thread, I think "Straight or Gay" -- and then I realize it's about picks!! :)

LoopLoop

11-02-2005, 09:57 PM

Ross has fun in them, but he would not recommend them to even a mid-level skater, because not having the back of your blade on the ice gives you less margin of error a lot of the time.

Our pairs coach helped design the blade! Maybe we can ask him at our next lesson...

twokidsskatemom

11-02-2005, 10:02 PM

Casey

11-02-2005, 11:52 PM

Well, you're just as hung up as I am on it- it takes two to tango. But I do stand corrected with your link. :giveup:
Personally, I agree with you completely.

I was looking over the John Watts page a few days ago, and couldn't help but thinking to myself, "heh, they didn't ever check the website for typos". I don't think it's accurate to call a rocker a radius any more than it is to call a left foot a right (yes, I'm hung up on it too), and the John Watts site also makes a few other glaring errors, including "A blade that has been hollow ground means that the vertical plane of the blade has been dished out to give it a concave profile. This dishing effect is performed without following the profile of the skating edge, resulting in a tapering of the blade towards the heel. Some manufacturers believe that this process provides more grip and bite on the skating edge, however from an engineering point of view this cannot be the case for the following reasons:" From everything else I've read, "hollow ground" refers to the fact that the bottom of the blades are concave on the bottom, but it has absolutely nothing to to with tapered edges. Certainly having the bottoms hollow ground is not an optional feature!

*shrugs*. Calling a right foot left doesn't make it a left, and neither does it do so when somebody says it on their website. :P

2loop2loop

11-03-2005, 03:28 AM

I was looking over the John Watts page a few days ago, and couldn't help but thinking to myself, "heh, they didn't ever check the website for typos". I don't think it's accurate to call a rocker a radius any more than it is to call a left foot a right (yes, I'm hung up on it too), and the John Watts site also makes a few other glaring errors, including "A blade that has been hollow ground means that the vertical plane of the blade has been dished out to give it a concave profile. This dishing effect is performed without following the profile of the skating edge, resulting in a tapering of the blade towards the heel. Some manufacturers believe that this process provides more grip and bite on the skating edge, however from an engineering point of view this cannot be the case for the following reasons:" From everything else I've read, "hollow ground" refers to the fact that the bottom of the blades are concave on the bottom, but it has absolutely nothing to to with tapered edges. Certainly having the bottoms hollow ground is not an optional feature!

The only error here is your own. Hollow ground in respect of tapered blades refers to the vertical profile of the blade. If you were to stand the blade upright looking at the blade end on you would see that the sides of the blade aren't vertical and parallel, but instead look somewhat like this ) ( As the website says this is done without following the profile of the blade, so where the blade curves up at the heel the cross-section is actually narrower.

The more I look at it, it seems that there is a US bias towards saying rocker, and a UK bias towards radius, with "rocker" being used to describe the increase in curvature at the front of the blade (hence the Watts blade webpage talking about a "progressive rocker" in a number of places). But it is clearly something of a grey area.

John

Mrs Redboots

11-03-2005, 11:50 AM

I'd love Freedom blades, but don't need them! I have ordinary John Watts Dance blades, and absolutely love them, they're a fantastic mid-level dance blade. But I've seen what some dancers - one in particular - can do on a Freedom blade, and, wow...... but no way do I need one! :(

stardust skies

11-03-2005, 04:18 PM

The only error here is your own. Hollow ground in respect of tapered blades refers to the vertical profile of the blade. If you were to stand the blade upright looking at the blade end on you would see that the sides of the blade aren't vertical and parallel, but instead look somewhat like this ) ( As the website says this is done without following the profile of the blade, so where the blade curves up at the heel the cross-section is actually narrower.

The more I look at it, it seems that there is a US bias towards saying rocker, and a UK bias towards radius, with "rocker" being used to describe the increase in curvature at the front of the blade (hence the Watts blade webpage talking about a "progressive rocker" in a number of places). But it is clearly something of a grey area.

John

Both the John Wilson and MK blades are made in Sheffield, England, so I'm not sure the country has much to do with it. Meanwhile, the whole hollow ground hoopla is just badly explained by the company, IMO. If they are trying to explain the difference between tapered and regular blades, they should specify that. The way they are saying "a blade that is hollow ground means.." makes it sound like they are talking about EVERY kind of blade. Ah well, who knows. No big deal so long as they're good to skate on I guess!

Nice hearing from you Casey. How is life?

Casey

11-03-2005, 05:41 PM

The way they are saying "a blade that is hollow ground means.." makes it sound like they are talking about EVERY kind of blade.
Exactly!

Ah well...
I'll second that as well. :)

Nice hearing from you Casey. How is life?
Pretty good. I'm still too poor to be a real skater, but still ignoring that fact and skating anyways. :) And quite enjoying it too, I was just in a weird funk for a while, it's good to be out of it. I'm even taking lessons again now, though only a half hour every 2 weeks. But better than nothing.