Unrealistic Fear?

[sunshinepointe]

So as I posted in another thread, my coach wants me learning the layback.

I'm very limber and equally strong. However something about the layback makes me think I'm going to end up with a cracked skull.

A girl at the rink, mind you 10 years younger than me, says that falling on your head during a layback is an "unrealistic fear" because the force of the spin keeps you upright - and if you do lose your balance in the spin for some reason you'll just upright yourself and end up on your bum.

Call me crazy, but I think that theres a better chance I'll land on my head. And I know that this fear is keeping me from leaning all the way back to make an aesthetically pleasing layback.

Is what she says true? Should I just go for it? I'd really like to NOT crack my head open so I've been timid, but passive skating never gets you anywhere. At least if I know that if you fall you'll end up on your butt then thats okay. My butt and the ice are best friends now. I'd rather not make it a threesome and introduce my skull. 8O

If anyone has stories about when they first learned their layback and how they got over their fears and if anyone has ever fallen and NOT killed themselves please let me know.

[jp1andOnly]

first off, the spin is a scary spin to learn.

One thing I did that helped me was work with my coach. I never practiced them on my own until I had a couple of lessons with my coach and I felt I understood the mechanics of the spin.

First step for me was working on leg position only. After that we went back and did 2 foot spins working on arching the back. We stopped and then did 2 foot spins working on the head portion of the spin. Soon we did the proper leg position and did a bit of back arch. Once that was comfortable, we worked on achieving the position.

[coskater64]

Well it is unlikely that you will fall on your head. But learn how to do the spin properly first learn how to center an attitude spin, then find a good leg position that works for you then arms then finally add the arch in the spine. I learned my layback as a child but relearning it 22 years later in my late 30's wasn't easy. I did it in this order, and each year I rework my layback to take advantage of my strengths that seem to change each year. It is never bad to err on the side of caution.

[Debbie S]

I fell trying a layback spin once and landed on my rear. I started to go down and my legs kind of upended and I fell straight down - I think it's a reflex to naturally bring your upper body upright when that happens.

I think the reason I fell is because I was leaning too far back on the blade. As with every spin, you should keep your weight on the ball of your foot. I've only tried a layback a couple of times, but the trick is to push your hips out to counteract your upper body bending back.

Definitely ask your coach to show you first before trying on your own.

[luna_skater]

I have to learn a sideways leaning spin for synchro, and my coach has been teaching me some layback techniques along with it. If you don't already know how to do a sideways leaning spin, learning that first might help you get over the layback fear.

[NickiT]

My coach started teaching me this but I simply cannot arch my back and push my hips forward while in the spin. I can do it fine at the barrier so I'm sure it's a fear thing. I find that if my mind's not sure on something my body simply won't do it! There is this deep fear of falling on my head and having had enough broken bones from skating the last thing I want to do is crack my skull open. Any suggestions as to how to get over this fear would be appreciated!

Nicki

[Isk8NYC]

First of all, I have fallen and whacked my head on the ice several times, but NOT from a layback. I fall when you least expect it: doing mohawks, turning around to gossip with a friend, teaching classes (how embarrassing!) - you name it!

Second of all, even after a few head konks (which sounded like a bowling ball being dropped on the ice) I'm still not afraid of skating. Except footwork: I hate footwork. Lack of fear is my strongest asset. I'm not afraid to fall.

Finally, I didn't learn the layback from my coach,:oops: I learned it from fellow skaters. We used to have the figure skating equivalent of a pickup game. We'd take turns picking a maneuver, then each person in the game would try the spin/jump/etc. The other people had to critique and make suggestions and yes, there were "do overs." It was a fun way to practice and learn new things. I learned the layback from a MALE friend, who actually has a decent position. Didn't think he would have the center of gravity for it. I also studied the spin from books (there were no internet references) and practiced it a lot. Of course, my coach refined it later.

The spinning does keep you from falling on your head. You're NOT vertical - you're just bent backwards. To get out of it, you straighten up and stop the spin. You can just put your other foot down. Just practice the hip/leg position and you'll see what I mean. Good luck.

[sunshinepointe]

To those of you suggesting the smaller steps in between, I can do all of that stuff you mentioned it's just getting comfortable with the idea of leaning back. I think the whole "pushing the hips forward" thing is where I go wrong. I tend to rely on my flexibility for backbends and I don't utilize the hip thrust. I'll work on it again with coach this Thursday. He told me for just learning it that it looks good, but he knows I can do better, I'm just holding back.

Thanks for the replies so far, keep them coming!

[quarkiki2]

So, this is my take on fear: it's ALWAYS irrational. If it were rational, we wouldn't be afraid.

I agree with the advice to not practice any further than you're comfortable without your coach around. Even if there's nothing he/she can do if you fall, just having the support is helpful.

[FrankR]

So, this is my take on fear: it's ALWAYS irrational. If it were rational, we wouldn't be afraid.

I agree with the advice to not practice any further than you're comfortable without your coach around. Even if there's nothing he/she can do if you fall, just having the support is helpful.

I so agree with you. Lately, I have developed the most heinous fear and mental block on double sals. I had been having good luck with the double sal the past two summers but this year it has been kicking my butt regularly. I've taken a few bad spills and now I'm struggling with it mentally. It's to the point now that I'm popping this into a single more than I'm actually making real attempts at it. :(

Fear sucks. :cry:

Frank

[starskate6.0]

Its been a while since i posted but i thought this was an interesting subject.
I have skated for over 20 years and always as an adult.

We all have our fears some of the big jumps and some of a simple 3 turn. I thought I would tell you mine. I have always been one for the love of show skating but to be a good show skater is not about your ability on the ice its about hiding the fear of those things you do that thrill people but scare the crap out of you. I have hidden such fear for years.... :?? I must tell you I have not done this stunt for years but i have thought about it. :roll:

I did my first back flip in 1987 long before I became a figure skater ( so to speak). I was thrilled with the stunt after seeing it done on TV years ago.

Its a long story but to cut it short I did the back flip in shows in comedy numbers and shows for some years untill I had a terrible accident in the Philipines in 1991. I have only done it twice since that time and even the thought of this stunt make me shake in my boots ( and I have been crazy enough to think about it again ) but i dought you will ever see me do this again.

I got my last back flip on video at home and I think thats where it will stay
But the fear returns every time I think of doing it again. 8O I can't get past the fear of this jump . But I know i have done it. which means one thing..... you can work past the fear .. its just a matter of if you think its worth the satisfaction of doing something realy great... :bow: I wish you well with your talents and i hope you find the thrill I once did when I hid the fear and did the jump.. Good luck...

Ross :mrgreen:

[flo]

The thought that you will fall on your head in a layback is similar to thinking you will fall on your head in a death spiral. However what really happens in both - having fallen out of both and also "having" both, is that the minute you begin to lose balance your body naturally pikes, or bends at the waist. It's much more likely that you will hit your head on other falls (done that too).
With a layback the weight of your head is balanced by the extended leg. When you get off balance, neither will stay back. Also this is something I tell my tots that I teach - I ask them what will happen to a china doll that falls on the ice, and then a rag doll. I then tell them that when they start to feel off balance be more like a rag doll and fold down into your knees. You're less likely to fall and get hurt. (We also practice off ice being a jack in the box an collapsing down into our boxes).

[blisspix]

When you learn the layback, do not tilt your head back. Most falls I've seen have been from people throwing their head back, staring right at a light and losing it!

The suggestions for a gentle leaning spin to start are good. Also, if you have access to a ballet class, you may want to practice the position. My layback has improved because you use the same position in ballet, and it's much less scary to practice it in that kind of class.

Also try doing a spin with your hands on your hips, back straight, just moving your hip and getting used to the feeling.

My layback has never been very good, but these things have helped.

I have a fear of toe loops. Toe loops! I've never been able to do them right.

[sunshinepointe]

I'll trade you a toe loop for a layback. My toe loops rock! Laybacks, not so much lol.

I took ballet for years - my position is pretty good, I'm just hesitant to lay back a little more. I guess each time I'll try lowering a little bit more.

Those falls you've seen - did anyone hit their head? :roll:

[sk8er1964]

Those falls you've seen - did anyone hit their head? :roll:

I've personally never seen anyone hit their head on a layback. I've done some really ugly laybacks -- the kind that make you so dizzy you can't stand up -- and I've never hit my head on a layback. Axel, yes. Double sal, yes. Layback, no. :)

It is a really weird feeling, though, until you get used to it. I find that if I let my free leg wander out of the correct position the feeling gets worse.

[blisspix]

I'll trade you a toe loop for a layback. My toe loops rock! Laybacks, not so much lol.

Yay!


Those falls you've seen - did anyone hit their head? :roll:

No. They usually fell sort of sideways instead of straight forward and back... must be due to the centrifugal forces (not entirely sure, been a long time since I took a physics class, lol)

You'd have to work really hard to hit your head outright doing anything, I've never come straight down on my head, I've always hit something else first like a hip, chest, shoulder etc which breaks the impact. Except for the time I slid into the barrier head-first when I fell off a jump, but of course the rest of me was on the ground too. ;)

[doubletoe]

I still don't have a decent layback because I just don't have a flexible back, but I practice the position at the boards and off ice so that I can get more comfortable with it. I've become convinced that what everyone keeps telling me is right: It's much more about pushing the hips forward than about bending over backward! You push the hips forward first, and only once you have pushed the hips forward do you lay back. When you do that, it's like your head is still lined up right over your butt; it's just that your back is arched in-between them instead of straight.

[aussieskater]

You'd have to work really hard to hit your head outright doing anything, I've never come straight down on my head, I've always hit something else first like a hip, chest, shoulder etc which breaks the impact. Except for the time I slid into the barrier head-first when I fell off a jump, but of course the rest of me was on the ground too. ;)

How to hit your head first 101 - going backwards when I wasn't very good at it, and having a small child also going backwards (who was good at it) take out my blades as we hit back to back (or that should probably be his hip to my knee). He remained standing and skated off. Out went my feet, and down I went like a rather long stone. The only thing which saved my head was that I instinctively got one hand behind my head and reefed the head forward to the chest on the way down. The knuckles of the hand hit first (OUCH). If the hand hadn't made it, the head would have hit first.

I can definitely say that I do not recommend this type of fall. The neck hurt for some weeks after, and as for the hand...I was apparently very lucky not to break a knuckle. It became my heaven-sent mission after that to learn to go backwards with confidence and the ability to look! Now backwards is my favourite direction. Go figure.

[vesperholly]

Definitely focus on pushing the hips forward instead of laying back. I try to think of arching my back rather than dropping the shoulders.

I have a good layback now, but when I was first learning it, I used to let my back go all mushy and just dropped it back, instead of holding a nice arch position. My coach taught me to think of a ballet barre under my shoulder blades, just above the small of my back, and to arch my shoulders OVER that.

I've learned a CCW AND CW layback spins over the years, and I have never once hit my head - and I've had some pretty weird falls out of laybacks, including in competition! :oops: