ice dance -good, bad and ugly

[litigator]

Well mine is doing dance-we have the girl and
she loves it, happily, the partners get along similar line, personality, etc...pretty much the boy is fine most of the time other than the ego-but he's a boy so what can we expect :lol: ....but oh man the mother :roll:

Can anyone offer me some advice on etiquette with the other side--one of the problems we are having are "boundaries"...boy's mom comes to rink and we hear nothing but ongoing criticism of daughter-this finally stopped after we finally spoke to our coaches about some issues...

Issues that have come up that we feel are boundaries related are:
1.time our daughter spends doing freeskate (ie his mom thinks they should be doing dance-but its ok when he's having a freeskate lesson) (our opinion is none of her business what our daughter is up to in FS-and she's good, and should not put all her time into dance)

2.she won't come to our club (where our daughter has homed out of for years)
because we won't go to hers (we can't-our coaches won't go there as ice is like an hour long)

3. trying to control winter skating schedules (coaches really spoke to her about this), trying to control how son does his dance (ie any artistic like arm movements-she tells him to stop doing it)

4. constant and loud-negative comments about our daughter's skating generally,in front of us and others (we are now trying to be very firm with her about MYOB)

5. how in demand her kid is (not true-apparently mainly because of her)

6. Attempting to undermine our trust in our own coaches (we had these coaches first, for 3 years, great trust relationship)-she tries to say things that imply that she's had this great discussion with the coaches and implies they've planned things for dance with her and have said things to her and then of course, they haven't said them to us, all related to issues involving us both-and similar little games.. and because we trust our coaches completely, this won't work...but she sure is trying....coaches actually approached us to tell us what she was trying to do....and we said it was ok we already knew.....and that we TRUST them....

We know this is like a marriage-but we were't prepared for someone to be so negative and controlling-and manipulative...she came to our coaches and we were happy about that....now we see she just thought about control and undermining our own relationship with our coaches....this woman is normally a person we would run away from-try to avoid in skating world...coaches are trying to take her in hand...and helping us through this...

So why are we doing this? Only because our daughter loves it-everything about it. Because on the whole, the boy is pretty nice, they get along, their body lines match, they have chemistry/spark...both 13, ...and our coaches feel this is a great chance to show off our daughter and get some pairs experience and maybe other opportunities for partners...and maybe if we can retrain this woman...work towards 2007 nationals....

So for all you parents out there with a "marriage of skaters"....advice wanted....PLEASE!!!! :giveup: :bow: :lol: :frus:

[stardust skies]

My advice is that perhaps none of the parent should be at the rink watching the practice sessions- let the coaches do their work, and keep the bickering out of it. If this is how the practices are gonna go, it's not worth it. Boys are hard to find for girl partners, but it's doomed from the start if the other mom is verbally abusive to your kid- and NO PARTNER is worth that. So if she can't keep a lid on it, or stay out of the rink while they're trying to work, then you should probably move on.

What I don't get is that the coaches don't get this woman kicked out if she's screaming things- anything- out during a session. That's part of the 'no tolerance' police- you just can't do that.

[Lenny2]

This is a very difficult situation. I think you need to ask the coach to step in. You shouldn't have to deal with this yourself or you will risk creating a very uncomfortable situation between the families. You need a third party (i.e. the coach) who can ask the other mother to butt out. Realistically, though, you should realize that this situation is doomed in the long run. With such young skaters, the pushy parent ultimately will become too much for you and your daughter to take. It's too bad, because I know how difficult it is to find a male skating partner. But skating partnerships require such cooperation between the families that it can't work where one of the parents is sabotaging the whole thing, especially when the skaters are young. For the time being, let your daughter get some great partnering experience but know that it is unlikely that this will work out in the long run.

[litigator]

Just to clarify-the other mother doesn't actually say the things to our daughter-our rinks are set up so that you can't be down at the ice to boss so that the kids can overhear---she just sits up in the benches and says all this-to us, to other parents, so we hear it, other parents hear it--one day our daughter's friend who was with us because she was staying with us while her parents were away heard it all-(and of course told our daughter)....and often what she carries on about has very little to do with the dance part...its more about the times skating, that they do not spend dancing :roll: The point is-others hear it and it appears someone else finally reported this issue to our coaches-we were reluctant to involve them at first.

I generally read or do business related work while at the rink-impractical to leave as we're training an hour away from home and with gas.....:)...so I can't say I pay a whole lot of attention to the practices-unless she's in a singles lesson...-because she's working on her new solo and doubles combos...what I do see re dance looks great-and the coaches have said nothing but fairly good things-other than occasionally they give us guidance on what needs progression-what they're doing next etc. I figure my job is love and unconditional support, pay the bills, arrange the extra off ice classes needed for progression, and get to the rink on time-and do what the coaches ask of me and love and encourage her no matter what. Never been a skater don't know the half of what she does sometimes. But its nice to watch, and she loves it..

We tried to deal with the mother ourselves, gently, by stating that so long as they're not dancing, and she's doing her own singles, its what we think/want about what she's doing at that time that matters. And we've been very firm with her that our daughter WILL continue her singles-we know what can happen when partnerships don't work out. And the coaches have been VERY firm on the same point-both children must continue singles-they need strong FS for successful dancing. We have this suspician she is putting her down so that we'll spend more time on dance-and our daughter-regardless of the scarcity of boys-is not meat:)

To answer, Lenny, coaches did deal with her last week-they spoke to us first to confirm some of the issues-and indicated they also were having issues about the coaching role being usurped by her, bossing after sessions, telling the boy not to do certain things -ie the arm movements--and that this needed a chat...they asked us to support the coaches by being firm with her also about her suggestions-which we've been, we always say its up to the coaches.....and so they firmly, sat her down for a face to face private chat and told her a lot of things apparently, including that she was sabotaging what was a good thing-and that she should butt out...for a couple days she was suddenly very nice-and absent a lot from the rink...then yesterday it started again-all over winter ice...coaches again firm....

I know its doomed eventually...but the coaches seem to think the mother can be trained out of it-that she's just never been taught its unacceptable to behave this way....hence-my question on boundaries-and how do you make them without alienating the other side?? :bow:

I feel its important that boundaries are respected-we're fairly private and go with the flow kind of people---very invested in trusting our coaches' decisions and plans and goals-because we know they make these plans in consultation with our daughter....and because I'm not too in tune with how this working with the other side really works-we want to be sure we're not expecting too much in asking her to go with the flow and stay out of our daughter's progression and aspirations (that are non dance related)...but I'd like to set those boundaries in a way that doesn't alienate her so badly it makes the rest of the year difficult (we all promised to give it a year at the start).

[arena_gal]

Have you had a meeting altogther with coaches, the kids and all the parents? At that point you could say to the mother "I know you talk about us in front of others. It is unacceptable and I do not want to hear of it again". No threats, just say what it is.

I agree with others, this will eventually explode and your job as a parent is to protect your daughter throughout and secondly, I feel sorry for the boy. Something not related to his actual skating ability will curtail his career.

Even though boys are in demand in dance and pairs, there are reasons why there are unattached boys looking for partners, it's not always about the skating.

[Big Mama]

I sure don't envy you! I don't have any experience in this department, but I do know two different sets of pair skaters who have/are going through this type of thing. Unfortunatly, I think it is quite common that the parents have problems with each other because they are all looking out for the best interest of their own skater (sometimes at the expense of the other person). If only the parents could figure out that they need to look at the whole picture and work together to bring out the best in both the kids!

I totally agree that you need to have a meeting with the coaches and the other parents. The coaches should give short term and long term goals for the kids, and plan a course of action to meet these goals. The coaches should decide how much time is spent getting lessons or practicing for ice dance. Perhaps the other mom feels at a disadvantage because she switched to you coaches? The coaches need to assure her that they are looking out for the best interst of both of the kids, and that everyone has to work together. They also need to tell her that this is a process, and it will take several years for the team to start to realize their potential. Not all couples have chemistry or similar lines, so if they already have that they are already ahead of the game. Maybe the coaches could even type up a list of goals and what they expect so that the other mom has something concrete in her hands. Everyone needs to be involved in the discussion and the other mom needs to verbalize what she expects and how much time she expects the kids to practice. Maybe she just needs to know that her opinion counts too... Try to schedule a meeting soon and make sure you and the other mom have questions and concerns written down on paper beforehand, so that all concerns are voiced.

By the way, do both of the kids have the same goals? This seems to be a big problem among pairs skaters. One of the couples that I know is having prolems because of this. The girl is taking a more recreational approach, whereas the boy (and his mom) have aspirations of going to the Olympics. The boy's parents are now insisting that the girl be home-schooled so that they can practice more, or else he is going to find a new partner. The girl likes her friends at school, and does not want to quit school. :cry: Since boys are so rare, his mom is calling all of the shots. In all likelihood, he could find a new female partner by tomorrow. Unfortunatly, you are probably in the same boat. The other mother probably feels that your daughter is lucky to skate with her son, and she knows that they could have their choice of partners.

You will have to play nice, or else risk losing your daughter's rare chance to have a partner. That doesn't mean that anyone has to put up with any type of abuse though. Maybe you should also mention to the other mother that her comments have been repeated to your daughter, and that it has hurt her feelings. If the meeting with the coaches doesn't help, then you will have to decide what you can live with. Maybe you could even plan something off-ice with the other family so that you can get to know each other a bit better. :idea: Good luck and keep us posted!

[litigator]

Thanks for the advice-keep it coming. I think after hearing comments, we need to have a meeting all together. I would have thought she would be intimidated with the coaches too, but we know now from our own coaches its not that-he has lost partners before because of mother, coaches because of mother, and he was denied the chance to try out with certain partners with experience where he was training most recently, because of the mother...no one wanted to give the boy a chance...so it's really frustrating that she's this way -which makes us sad because he's a pretty nice kid and the two partners get along.

The coaches, we thought,-and they thought too- were very clear about goals from the beginning and have reinforced it along the way. They've told us this first year is about stroking, learning about each other, holds, turns, unison and that the process is slow. We agreed this year should be about having some fun together, training seriously and see what happens. Goal is next season-not this one-sectionals to have a respectable placing. I think long term, our dance goals are somewhat the same-we'd obviously like them to do well together.

Our daughter, however unlike him, is a good freeskater, -she puts the effort in and has always had a good showing, and though nationals in singles would be a very very long shot-she loves this part and is unwilling to give it up at this point-she'd like to coach someday--and her love for singles-he isn't so fond of singles-seems to cause some friction-and quite simply, mother thinks that she can tell us what to do with regards to any of our daughter's previous training goals, coaches goals, ice time, etc.

It actually came right down to a dress for goodness sakes She went to our dressmaker to have a shirt altered-first mistake-we tried to be helpful as they needed an alteration for a competition in singles--and then while she was there, she went through all the dance dresses and actually told our dressmaker we should have bought a particular dress that SHE liked (which the dressmaker told her was not right for our daughter as she is very, very small-70lbs at 13) and then the mother continued to tell the dressmaker well they (as in us) should have bought this dress anyway....(we bought another dress, coach loves, same color different style)....I'm just frustrated-grin-does it show??? :lol:

Daughter does off-ice ballet, in fall starting jazz too....his mother will "have none of that".....for him....

I know I need to be nice-and we are trying to be-but I'm hoping now that a meeting might help fix some of this-we're learning from the coaches that he has had a lot of difficulty in getting a partner-and that she is why. I guess I just never thought people like this were out there....

[twokidsskatemom]

I dont have any advice for you :cry: Im glad so far my kids want to do pair or ice dance together, at least we know how all feel about things lol
I really feel for you and your daughter.I hope you can work it out somehow, but from what you said so far, I dont think I could be so nice to the mom :giveup:


Good luck !!!

[Isk8NYC]

For what it's worth, here's my 2¢:

The Mom is a domineering busybody who doesn't want her son becoming effeminate. Yeah, yeah I know, I'm reading into it, but it's my opinion.

Mom won't let him take off-ice dance classes, discourages freestyle skating, discourages "artistic" gestures, and wants to pick out their clothes. The boy isn't into freestyle anyway, which also rules out pairs for his future. Ergo, dance seems to be something they're "settling" for, but they're not willing to conform to the dance requirements.

My prediction is that, unless you and the coaches are able to drag the boy away from Mom, he'll stop skating in a few years. Or, he'll stop skating in his heart, and the couple will lose big-time.

Keep your daughter on the freestyle track, try to keep the partnership going by reining in the Mom and sheltering the Son, but most of all, buffer your daughter from this woman. She'll be looking for someone to blame when the dance team doesn't perform and it'll be your daughter's fault somehow. Mom sounds like a time bomb, waiting to go off. When it does, it won't be done through hearsay, she'll blast your daughter.

I would start looking for a new partner, just in case. Sounds like your daughter has a future and the boy has too much baggage.

(Puts away soap box.)

[singerskates]

This is one of the reasons adult skating is better. No baggage. Just plain fun on the ice during practice and during competition. No wonder alot of kid skaters stop skating and then return to skating as adults. Many of their parents were like the control freak mom that you're talking about.

That mom should be proud that her son loves to dance at all and he has found a partner. She should stop trying to live out her life through her son. If she thinks she knows a thing or two about skating, why doesn't she sign up to skate and try it for herself.

singerskates

[blue111moon]

Adult skaters have baggage - we just carry it ourselves. :)

If there's no way to separate the boy from his mother, then yes, finding a new partner might be the best way to go. Maybe telling the mother that is no uncertain terms would get her to see reason. "Look, we love your son and our daughter enjoys skating with him, but if you don't lay off them, we're will break up the team." And set some boundaries: no parent in the rink when the kids are skating; lobby is okay but no communication between parent and skater during ice time. Off-ice, what the coaches say, goes. If mom doesn't want kid taking dance classes or doing the coach's choreography, then the partnership is over. And the boy needs to understand that it's not him you're rejecting; it's his mother. If he truly wants to skate, then he needs to stand up for himself and put Mama in her place. 13 is rebellion time anyway. :lol:

[Lenny2]

I haven't looked at this thread in a while but, from the poster's most recent post, I am more convinced than ever that this partnership is doomed in the long run. Having said that, however, I do think that there is no reason to disrupt the partnership now. My daughter had a very nice dance partnership at 12 years old that resulted in a trip to Junior Nationals. She learned a lot about working with a partner and setting goals, etc., but, in the long run, the two skaters truly had differing goals because my daughter, like yours, wanted to pursue her freeskating too much to devote sufficient time to be competitive in the higher levels of dance. He needed a partner who was more devoted to dance. The parting was amicable. You and your daughter need to understand that this will not work out in the long run so that your daughter is not terribly disappointed when you both decide you can't take it anymore. So long as she understands the reality of the situation, she has much to gain from the partnership now. But, I fear that you won't be able to change the mother. She obviously feels like she has a coveted prize--a skating boy whom every girl should want. You'll never convince her that your daughter and her needs are equally as important as her boy's. But, I still think you should do your best to just go with the flow now. Try to maintain your sense of humor.

Caveat--if the boy is not treating your daughter well, than ditch the whole thing now. Abusive treatment is not worth it. Same advice if your daughter is not happy.