Most difficult adult jump combination?

[MQSeries]

To the adults who have been to a lot of adult competitions, what was the most difficult jump combinations that you've seen an adult skater landed cleanly? Just curious.

[Thin-Ice]

I've seen double axel-double toe -- that was clean.. and double axel-double loop with the loop cheated about 1/8th rotation... but she had enough power to still get reasonable flow coming out of it. Both of these were in practice sessions though.. not in competition... and I didn't know this woman... but from the way she skated, it looked like she had skated as a kid.

[batikat]

Depends if you mean a skater who is now an adult by dint of growing up and therefore lots of international level skaters qualify or do you mean at an adults only (non-elite) competition which can still have plenty of ex-child skaters and therefore high level jumps or do you mean adults who learnt to skate past the age of 21 or more? It would appear the older you are when you learn to skate then the less you can achieve in the way of jump difficulty.

Adult learners rarely get to an axel let alone beyond but in 'adult' competitions there are plenty who can do double -doubles at masters level.

Those adults who have never been on the ice until they were an adult are at the most disadvantage - though some with a gymnastics or dance background can still do quite well. A single axel is the most I have seen a 'learnt-as-an-adult skater' achieve in competition.

[NickiT]

Depends if you mean a skater who is now an adult by dint of growing up and therefore lots of international level skaters qualify or do you mean at an adults only (non-elite) competition which can still have plenty of ex-child skaters and therefore high level jumps or do you mean adults who learnt to skate past the age of 21 or more? It would appear the older you are when you learn to skate then the less you can achieve in the way of jump difficulty.

Adult learners rarely get to an axel let alone beyond but in 'adult' competitions there are plenty who can do double -doubles at masters level.

Those adults who have never been on the ice until they were an adult are at the most disadvantage - though some with a gymnastics or dance background can still do quite well. A single axel is the most I have seen a 'learnt-as-an-adult skater' achieve in competition.

I agree. It would be totally exceptional to find an adult who didn't learn till they were an adult to land a double-double combination. I don't know any adult here in the UK who didn't skate as a child who can land a double jump. Generally the hardest jump I've ever seen a UK adult do is a lutz-loop combination.

Nicki

[skaternum]

Yes, which is why I always try to make a distinction between adult-onset skaters (AOS) and skated-as-kid (SAK) skaters when answering questions about what adult skating is like. And every time this is brought up in various public forums (here, adultedge, etc.), there are always several posts about how "so-and-so at my rink didn't start skating until they were 101 and now has all doubles through lutz." ;) There are always exceptions to every rule. It is, however, a widely accepted generalization that AOS skaters won't get anywhere near the jump proficiency of SAK skaters. Mostly it's a axel, axel combo, or a couple of recognizable, but not-so-great doubles.

Which is why I'm MUCH more impressed with seeing an AOS skater (who spends 5 hours a week on the ice) land an axel at the age of 45 than I am with watching somebody who's skated most of their life (and spends 12 hours a week on the ice) land a triple! Not that I don't respect the Larry Hollidays, but I'd rather see Rob Lichtefeld land his axel any day!

[Caro]

I know a girl at my rink who started skating in her twentites. She has axel & double salchow (both are nice and clean and high) and is working on double toe & double loop. I think it's do-able, that is, to start skating in your twenties and learn doubles, etc. But you need determination & some already present form of "body awareness" (ie. that you have a good control over your limbs and 'feel' them).

I also know another girl who started skating at 19/20 and within two years had axel, double salchow, double cherry and double loop.

I get the feeling that a lot of skaters who start at an older age are more responsible, disciplined and focused when training. They don't sit at the boards to chat/gossip as much, focusing much more on practicing and training. Also, I get the feeling that older skaters listen more closely & grasp faster what their coaches tell them (than children/teens). They are really out there to learn and really WANT to skate/really love it.

[pennybeagle]

When I was at nationals and watching the Master's junior ladies, I heard someone mention that Kim Sailer (who won the event) started skating as an adult (in her twenties?). I think she landed at least one double-double combo in her program. I can't remember exactly, but I remember being impressed. She'd be my new hero if she actually did start skating as an adult. 8O

[manleywoman]

Kim's a good buddy of mine. Yes, she started at age 27. Her first ANs was Oakland and she competed in Silver! She's worked up to Masters, and has through 2lutz. Her 2-2 was a 2toe-2toe, I think.

[PattyP]

Kim's a good buddy of mine. Yes, she started at age 27. Her first ANs was Oakland and she competed in Silver! She's worked up to Masters, and has through 2lutz. Her 2-2 was a 2toe-2toe, I think.

Kim is my hero! I remember meeting her in 1999 an Ann Arbor. I watched her event back then and she was just barely attempting the d.sal. When I watched her this year at AN I was shocked as I knew that she was truely an AOS. It gave me hope that maybe someday I will get that elusive double as an AOS.

Please, if there are more stories like Kim's I would love to hear them. I need inspiration!

[LoopLoop]

Another story like Kim is Jason Spicer, who was third in championship gold men this year. He's only been skating for a few years and recently passed his novice moves. And he's landing through double flip!

[stardust skies]

I've skated my whole life, and I really don't understand this gargantuan difference that child skaters supposedly have from adult skaters. The only difference I really see is that my peers and I look and feel very comfortable on the ice, while the very few adults I've ever seen skate appear more scared and tentative (this is not, I'm sure, the majority, just the ones I've seen at the rinks I skate at). It's a comfort level. I am *sure* that if adult skaters didn't all have busy lives to lead and bills to pay, and could spend as much time and money on ice as we do, they would have at least double/doubles- I mean, even most kid skaters don't get their triples. But I'm sure some adults would get triples, too.

I don't think it's an age thing half as much as it is a commitment/time/money thing, and also a fear issue. Many adults I've seen are scared to go for the big jumps. I've been jumping and falling on my butt since I was 5, so I am not scared of anything. I really think those are the main differences, as opposed to what most people (including adult skaters, it seems..) think, and that is that they physically can't do it. I think you can. What is the difference? I mean, what about the Brian Boitanos/Paul Wylies/ Oksana Bauils of the world? They are older and they still do big jumps. I'm not sure there's that much difference between learning a jump and maintaining it for SO many years (and we all know jumps come and go, especially with older athletes who no longer compete or train at an intense level). And us child skaters all had to relearn our jumps and adjust our centers of gravity after each and every damn growth spurt anyways (and that wasn't fun), so I don't see the difference with just learning it once you're grown. The skaters I listed above may have been elite skaters, but they've still got adult bodies, and probably ones with way more cracks and dents and foreign metal pieces in there than most of you guys do. Muscle memory is one thing, but if you've been pounding triples for 20 years, you should be less capable of still doing them than someone with a relatively injury free body of a similar age.

And the last thing, I think, that's holding adult skaters back, is that they are told they can't. And they believe it, cause everyone says so. I think the only way to find out if you can land a double/double or triple, is to try. That's the only way you'll have the true answer for you.

[Raye]

From an adult perspective, a lot of it depends on whether you have continued to skate throughout your entire adult life or if there is a sizeable gap between quitting and re-starting. I started as a 'young woman' at age 17 and by the time I was 22 I was working on an axel, double sal and double flip. The axel was consistent and the other two were becoming reliable. But I was off the ice for 25 years, and am nowhere near picking up where I had left off. I have no doubt that I will be back to axels, double sal's and double flips one day... It is just going to take some time. My good friend who is only 10 years younger than me has skated all the way through and lands doubles consistently. If I had had no 25 year gap, I'd be still landing them too.

One thing IS true - The fear of falling is a MUCH bigger factor at 50 than it was at 17.

[Casey]

I've skated my whole life, and I really don't understand this gargantuan difference that child skaters supposedly have from adult skaters.
AGREED 100%!!! I keep seeing these debates around like "should adult skaters who started as kids be allowed to skate with adults who started as adults?" and such complete b/s, and frankly, it's sickening and gets very old very fast.

I don't think it's an age thing half as much as it is a commitment/time/money thing, and also a fear issue.
Agreed. Sure, somebody who started at 5 and has been skating non-stop for 20 years might have an advantage over somebody the same age who started at 20 and skated for 5 years, but somebody who started at 20 and skated non-stop with the same dedication for 20 years is probably on an equal level. I sincerely wish people would get over the whole age thing and look at skill level alone.

...Oksana Bauils of the world...
Off-topic, and many will disagree I'm sure, but I absolutely *love* Oksana Baiul! :oops:

And the last thing, I think, that's holding adult skaters back, is that they are told they can't. And they believe it, cause everyone says so.
HERE HERE!! Oh stardust, you hit the nail SO VERY PERFECTLY on the head here. When I started skating, I had no doubts about becoming a great skater with enough effort, I just *knew* in my heart that I would be able to become competition-worthy, and I didn't even know about the easier adult competitions at that point. And I progressed rapidly.

But then I kept reading and hearing, again and again, statements about how adults never accomplish this or that, nobody who starts as an adult can learn triples, we cannot learn as fast, our bodies aren't physically capable, etc. etc. etc. I ignored it for a while, but after hearing something enough, I think you start to believe it. Once that happens, progress slows dramatically, and suddenly all the things you never wanted to believe become your reality. This is what I'm trying to overcome now. Sometimes I wish I had never looked on the internet for places to discuss skating for this reason.

The father of one of my landlords is in town this week, and has been doing some rather major renovation of the front yard, which has involved moving lots of dirt, putting in a retaining wall made of railroad ties and rebar, and building a wood fence. I've helped on a couple occaisions with this, and it's kicked my behind. The guy is in his 60's, and works with such an incredible amount of strength and endurance that it blows me away. I've never seen anybody in their prime years work so diligently and hard. Nothing phases him, he just gets out there and does what he sets out to do, without letting anything get in his way. And he does it all wearing a kilt, to boot. If he listened to what people said was appropriate for his age, he'd be sitting in a recliner thinking about retirement homes now. But instead he's out there outperforming what 99% of men in their 20's and 30's could manage in a day, and moreover manages it EVERY DAY, because he knows he can, and believes only in what he knows to be possible for himself.

That's the kind of mentality I want.

[sceptique]

Wow, guys, you inspired me. I'm going to try my first single toe loop and slachow this weekend. I tried them off-ice and I think I'm getting grasp of the technique, but I wasn't sure if I'm ready to have a go at them on ice. Watch out kiddies, Mrs 5'11'' is throwing her long legs around!! :D :D

Speaking about what you can achieve as an adult. I know that now I'm in a way much better physical shape when I was as a kid (which only says I was a really stocky and phlegmatic kid). Somewhere in my early twenties I discovered that I'm at least as fit as the most of my age group. In the past few years I found that I'm more fit then most of them. I think, if you keep exercising consistently, not just for a few weeks before and after Xmas or at the start of beach season, and watch what you eat, you can keep quite a decent form, so learning new skills would come along easier.

About "nevers": I remember some funny ones of mine:

Session 2: Going backwards on skates is impossible! It's against my laws of physics!

Session 6: There's no way I can do this! (about a 3-turn)

Session 25: I now do WHAT??? (After my coach suggested I try a waltz jump)

Who knows, maybe one day I will add a double jump to this list of silly "nevers", only time can tell. Meanwhile, now if my coach asks me to do something particularly intimidating, I just shut up and do it. There's a good Russian saying for the occasion: "Eyes are afraid, but hands are doing" - well, in this case, "legs are doing". It's the best part of this sport when you pull something you thought is impossible and just stand there with an imbecile smile: "Gosh, I never knew I could do THAT!" Surprises, surprises....

[nerd_on_ice]

sceptique, I love your "nevers!" I was perplexed by mohawks for the longest time--how was it even possible to start out going forward, change feet, and end up going backward? :lol:

That Russian saying is great. I need to write it on my arm--or stitch it on my sweater--so I can refer to it frequently during lessons! I'm just about to start learning the toe loop and salchow as well. Woohoo!

[MQSeries]

Agreed. Sure, somebody who started at 5 and has been skating non-stop for 20 years might have an advantage over somebody the same age who started at 20 and skated for 5 years, but somebody who started at 20 and skated non-stop with the same dedication for 20 years is probably on an equal level. I sincerely wish people would get over the whole age thing and look at skill level alone.


It's not just fear that's holding most adults back. Why do you think a child can pick up and learn a foreign language so much easier and quicker than an adult? Children have an adaptability that diminishes significantly as they get older. The adult muscles are already used to doing things a certain way and unless you're already a top-level athelete and have done a lot of cross-training, you're body and mind aren't going to cooperate to let you do those difficult skating technical elements.

[skaternum]

And every time this is brought up in various public forums (here, adultedge, etc.), there are always several posts about how "so-and-so at my rink didn't start skating until they were 101 and now has all doubles through lutz." See! You guys are proving me right. These folks are exceptional because they're ... um ... exceptions. :)

[Skate@Delaware]

When I first started skating (as an adult), I only wanted to skate competently backwards, so I didn't look foolish on public sessions. Granted, there was A LOT of fear of falling (more than being afraid of going fast on the ice). I only skated about 20 times in my life before this.
Ok, after LOTS of hard work on and off the ice, I'm close to actually landing a single jump (after 1 1/2 years of skating). I never thought I'd actually reach this point. I think that if I try hard enough and want it bad enough (which I do), doubles might be possible for this ole' gal (I'm 43)..... I'm in better shape now than last year, and it's getting easier for me to do certain things, harder for others because I constantly push to do more.
I hope this makes sense to you guys; I think it does....

[NoVa Sk8r]

It's not just fear that's holding most adults back. Why do you think a child can pick up and learn a foreign language so much easier and quicker than an adult? Children have an adaptability that diminishes significantly as they get older. The adult muscles are already used to doing things a certain way and unless you're already a top-level athelete and have done a lot of cross-training, you're body and mind aren't going to cooperate to let you do those difficult skating technical elements.Right on. I train with a lot of competitve skaters, and I don't recall anyone saying that they've been told they can't do x.

BUT ... skating as a child IS different than skating as an adult.

"Should adult skaters who started as kids be allowed to skate with adults who started as adults?" and such complete b/s, and frankly, it's sickening and gets very old very fast."
I think it's part of a healthy debate of what adult skating is and how it can and must develop. I have no problem skating against adults who have skating as kids. But they do, in general, skate better.

"Sure, somebody who started at 5 and has been skating non-stop for 20 years might have an advantage over somebody the same age who started at 20 and skated for 5 years, but somebody who started at 20 and skated non-stop with the same dedication for 20 years is probably on an equal level."

Sorry, but I think this is a naive assessment. I'd like to think that the length of time were a sole isuue, but it's not. (I am, however, glad to read how you think, because mentality can help out a lot in your training.)

"I've skated my whole life, and I really don't understand this gargantuan difference that child skaters supposedly have from adult skaters."
Exactly; you've skated your whole life. How can you even begin to skate a mile in our (adult) boots? You can't.

Age IS a major factor. Repost after you've passed into your 30s and 40s. Then you can join in on the discussions about knee, back, and shoulder problems. :P

In addition, there are many adult skaters who train 5, 6, even 7 days per week, skating up to 20+ hours/week. The reason they don't progress up to, say, triples, is that they are, um adults.

But while I doubt I'll ever land a double/double (or even all of my clean doubles by themselves), I DO enjoy working on double flip and double salchow. I don't let the pragmatism stop me from working hard.
Pragmatism may be a limiting force in the eyes of some folks, but I don't think blind idealism is any better. ;)

[skaternum]

I've skated my whole life, and I really don't understand this gargantuan difference that child skaters supposedly have from adult skaters.Here's why you don't understand it: read the first 5 words of this post.

The only difference I really see is that my peers and I look and feel very comfortable on the ice...And you don't think that's a big difference? The person who is more comfortable on the ice is going to progress more rapidly and further.

I am *sure* that if adult skaters didn't all have busy lives to lead and bills to pay, and could spend as much time and money on ice as we do, they would have at least double/doubles- I mean, even most kid skaters don't get their triples. But I'm sure some adults would get triples, too. The ice time is a big issue for AOS skaters, and it's a big limiter in terms of acquiring skills, but it's not the only one. Older bodies simply don't learn new physical skills as easily as younger bodies. I have 40 years of muscle memory to UNLEARN while I'm trying to learn new muscle memory.

Many adults I've seen are scared to go for the big jumps. I've been jumping and falling on my butt since I was 5, so I am not scared of anything. Wow, you're just making my arguments for me. :lol: We have NOT been falling on our butts since we were 5. We've learned that breaks, pulls, strains, bruises take longer to heal when you're older. Most of us don't consciously fear the ice, but subconsciously we know we have jobs and families and responsibilities. Falling on axel attempts when you're 8 may bruise your little tushy for a couple of days, but falling on an axel attempt (when you're not as comfortable on the ice as the 8 year old anyway) when you're 40 can give you muscle strains, bruises, or even muscle tears that can last for a week or more.

What is the difference? I mean, what about the Brian Boitanos/Paul Wylies/ Oksana Bauils of the world? Puhleeze. You're trying to use Brian Boitano to argue that someone who took up skating at 35 can learn triples??

The skaters I listed above may have been elite skaters, but they've still got adult bodies, and probably ones with way more cracks and dents and foreign metal pieces in there than most of you guys do.I wouldn't be so sure. I only know of 1 or 2 AOS skaters who haven't had major body part issues, including torn things, broken things, metal rods, metal screws, etc. Personally, I've been making the mortgage payments on my physical therapist's beach house for the last three years. I'm not unusual, in my experience, in that regard.

And the last thing, I think, that's holding adult skaters back, is that they are told they can't.Nobody has ever told me I can't. I'm not a fatalist; I'm a realist. I've been using my body for 40 years, and I have a good sense of what it can and cannot do. In spite of my years of ballet training, overall excellent physical condition, and "try almost anything" approach to life. I'm a good skater, and I usually place well against my peers in competition. I test standard track moves because they're good for me. I'm very positive about my skating. But I'm not delusional. A 40-year old body has a tougher time learning a double salchow than a 18-year old body.

Go to a large adult competition, like Adult Nationals or Peach Classic. Watch Bronze II, then watch Bronze V. You'll see a big difference. Same level; same ice time (actually, some of the Bronze Vers have more ice time because they're retired). Big difference in age; big difference in skills.

I'm sure those of you who aren't AOSers think your pop psychology about this is correct. But it's not all about our brains. It really is a physical thing, for all but the exceptional few.

[skaternum]

AGREED 100%!!! I keep seeing these debates around like "should adult skaters who started as kids be allowed to skate with adults who started as adults?" and such complete b/s, and frankly, it's sickening and gets very old very fast.With all due respect, you haven't been around the adult skating world very long. There are very good reasons why this debate keeps going. Some of them are historical; some of them are experiential. Feel free to skip these discussions.


but somebody who started at 20 and skated non-stop with the same dedication for 20 years is probably on an equal level.How old are you? I'm not being facetious. Do you even know any older adult skaters?

I sincerely wish people would get over the whole age thing and look at skill level alone."The whole age thing" is what brought about adult skating in the first place. Why do you think adults are separated from the kisd? Why do you think there are age classes within adult skating? There is, whether you like to admit it or not, a very real difference in the body's ability to learn to skate as you age. A 50 year old is not a 20 year old.


HERE HERE!! Oh stardust, you hit the nail SO VERY PERFECTLY on the head here. When I started skating, I had no doubts about becoming a great skater with enough effort, I just *knew* in my heart that I would be able to become competition-worthy, and I didn't even know about the easier adult competitions at that point. And I progressed rapidly.

But then I kept reading and hearing, again and again, statements about how adults never accomplish this or that, nobody who starts as an adult can learn triples, we cannot learn as fast, our bodies aren't physically capable, etc. etc. etc. I ignored it for a while, but after hearing something enough, I think you start to believe it. Once that happens, progress slows dramatically, and suddenly all the things you never wanted to believe become your reality. This is what I'm trying to overcome now. Sometimes I wish I had never looked on the internet for places to discuss skating for this reason.Are you trying to blame your slowed progress on the things you read on the web? You don't think it could genuinely be the "sophomore slump" that everyone acknowledges? Could it be that you've just ceased to progress on your own, and it has nothing to do with all the negative vibes we've been sending your way?

The father of one of my landlords is in town this week, and has been doing some rather major renovation of the front yard ... <snip>That's the kind of mentality I want.I don't really see this as being appropriately analagous. It's not like this guy had to "learn" how to move heavy objects in the yard. He**, I can move heavy objects in the yard. My muscles have spent a lifetime lifting and moving stuff. I'm strong, and I have good endurance. Give the guy a pair of skates and ask him to learn a double toe. :roll:

[sk8er1964]

I don't really see this as being appropriately analagous. It's not like this guy had to "learn" how to move heavy objects in the yard. He**, I can move heavy objects in the yard. My muscles have spent a lifetime lifting and moving stuff. I'm strong, and I have good endurance. Give the guy a pair of skates and ask him to learn a double toe. :roll:

IMO, there is a difference between a kid skater and an AOS (I'm one of those skated as a kid, took 20+ years off, came back types.) I didn't believe it when I came back to skating, but I do now. Not to say that an AOS skater can't beat me in competition because I'm a "kid" skater - they have before and will again. But there is a different feel, I guess, to most people's skating who started as kids as opposed to those who started as adults.

Re the quote above -- I have been back on ice for a few years now, and am just starting to land my doubles, even though I had most of them as a kid (oh, and I'm not at all afraid to fall). My 10 year old son, who plays hockey, was on figure skates a few months ago (for something like the third time in his life), and he almost got complete rotation on a double toe. Says a bit about the learning curve of the youngsters as compared to the old folks, doesn't it?

Regarding the original topic - I just landed my first axel-double toe combinations this week. Of course, I lost my axel the next day (it came back, fortunately) and I lost my double toe for the rest of the week..... :giveup: Welcome to adult skating! :lol:

[Casey]

Feel free to skip these discussions.
I do. But you misunderstand at least partly. I don't disagree with the different classes for different age groups, this is okay. What I disagree strongly with is the idea that 2 skaters of the same age should be separated based on whether or not they began skating before they turned 18. And I'm arguing this as one who's at the disadvantage, here. It all seems a bit silly since we have different levels after all.

How old are you? Do you even know any older adult skaters?
25, and yes. I know quite a few started-as-adult skaters and others who started as kids but weren't terribly dedicated, though most are in their 20's or early 30's.

There is, whether you like to admit it or not, a very real difference in the body's ability to learn to skate as you age. A 50 year old is not a 20 year old.
But a 25 year old who started at 5 is still 25, just as the 25 year old who started at 20. That is my point.

Are you trying to blame your slowed progress on the things you read on the web?
No, I'm blaming it on buying into the recurring statements I hear over and over and over and over in real life, on TV, on the web, you name it. I'm not blaming the sources, I'm blaming myself.

You don't think it could genuinely be the "sophomore slump" that everyone acknowledges?
That everyone acknowledges? Then why is it I haven't even heard this term before now?

It's not like this guy had to "learn" how to move heavy objects in the yard. He**, I can move heavy objects in the yard. My muscles have spent a lifetime lifting and moving stuff. I'm strong, and I have good endurance.
Well you're looking at it entirely wrong. It's not just lifting and moving stuff, it's the attitude and speed involved. When this man sets out to do something, he gets it done. There is much more mental fortitude involved here than physical strength alone.

Give the guy a pair of skates and ask him to learn a double toe. :roll:
Roll your eyes all you want, but I firmly believe that if he had the interest, he could go out there and learn the double toe, much faster than you or I. Why? Because he knows he can do anything he sets his mind to, and does not stop until he succeeds.

[Casey]

It's not just fear that's holding most adults back. Why do you think a child can pick up and learn a foreign language so much easier and quicker than an adult?
Fear is perhaps not the best word, "self-doubt" is much more appropriate, though fear is definitely a part of it. Adults typically learn new skills slower because they are more uncertain, and are afraid (yes, afraid) of really REALLY trying and having fun with it. They are more worried about embarrassment, failure, and imperfection. In physical activities, worry about physical damage comes into play too. I'm not saying that any of these worries are unjustified, but when they do exist as they most often do, they slow us down.

[TaBalie]

I am an adult skater that skated as a child, and I feel I have a HUGE advantage to those who started as adults. I am 30. And I am out of shape. But I still have muscle memory. Though it can be years and years between even recreational 20 minute skates, there were always things I could do. There are basic things that I retained. Of course, 99% of the adults at my rink can kick my a** even though they started as adults, but it tooks years and years to get some moves versus months for children.

I don't expect do be able to do doubles again (I don't really want to), but I think it is naive to think that adult skaters who skated as children (and even those who quit inbetween like I did for basically 15 years or so) don't have an easier time of it (versus adult skaters who had no childhood experience).

Physiologically speaking, like others said, the adult body is MUCH different than a child's body. And a 20 year old body is different than a 30 year old's and so on.

The great thing about this sport is that we all love skating, regardless of where/when/how we started :)

[Casey]

But they do, in general, skate better.
Good for them. They've earned it. They skate at a higher level as a result. What exactly is the problem?

Then you can join in on the discussions about knee, back, and shoulder problems.
Do you really believe that none of us in our 20's have any back or knee issues? My back would strongly disagree with you. And I know that stardust has only recently recovered from a number of injuries that kept her off-ice for a while.

In addition, there are many adult skaters who train 5, 6, even 7 days per week, skating up to 20+ hours/week. The reason they don't progress up to, say, triples, is that they are, um adults.
I couldn't disagree more. I think it's the fault of attitude and determination, not age; though most often attitude and determination diminish with age.

[1lutz2klutz]

There are very significant differences in the way adults and children learn, based on the way we store information in the brain. Learning a new skill requires the development of new neural pathways in the brain, and it has been definitively demonstrated by MRI studies that the pathways are developed in entirely different ways by adults vs. children. You can argue the "use of age as an excuse" theory all you want, but the proof is well documented and well-known in the medical and rehabilitation fields. There will always be the fairly rare exception of someone who develops higher level skills as an adult, but the difference of the skater who skates at age 5 for 5 years compared to the adult who skates for 5 years, even at the same training level, still be obvious.

[Debbie S]

Skaternum and NoVa pretty much said everything I wanted to (thanks guys! :bow: ) but I'll add just a bit.

First, most skaters who start skating as kids don't reach the point where they can land double axels or triple jumps - many drop out before testing and competing at the higher levels, and many reach a point where they just test but not compete anymore. That's why those who can consistently land 6 or 7 triples in a program are considered elite .

I think it's the fault of attitude and determination, not age; though most often attitude and determination diminish with age.
With all due respect, this is quite naive. As I noted above, most kid skaters training 10-15 hours a week don't reach that point; why would you think that an adult who only has 4-6 hours a week to train would accomplish that? Not to mention the physical differences between adults and kids that have already been mentioned. All of the determination in the world is not going to overcome the obstacles I and others have alluded to - it's just a fact.

And a 25 year-old who started skating at age 5 may be the same age as a 25 year-old who started skating at 20, but they are definitely far apart in skating skill. I think that's the point of this thread.

[Schmeck]

Attitude and Determination Diminish with Age?


Yeah, I'm seeing red here! I've seen much more determination in older skaters than in younger ones. And attitude? How can attitude diminish? What's a diminishing attitude look like????? :roll:

My skating coach explained it quite nicely to me once (after I wiped out on a side to side toe jumpy thing) "Kids just haven't developed the common sense to realize that skating can be painful" :roll: Or did she use the word "deadly"...

[icedancer2]

I definitely think that people who skated as kids have an easier time than adult-onset skaters.

I can use myself as an example here: I skated seriously from about age 8-14 years of age, in an elite training center (of the '60s). I passed a few tests, dance and figures, learned some jumps and spins, had a program. The basics, really, were all laid out for me.

I was NOT a good skater. I was one of those run-of-the mill kids who never really accomplished much, but I learned a lot and had fun with it. I trained with people who went to the Olympics, so there was definitely pressure.

Then I took 20 years off and came back to learn ice-dance. Now 17 years later I continue to skate, enjoy it, take lessons, go to dance sessions, etc. I am considered a pretty good skater for an adult. My adult-onset friends admire my edges, turns, posture and relative ease on the ice. I am comfortable on the ice, like stardust said in her post.

I am also not really very athletic nor adventurous. I am quite certain that I could never have learned to skate had I not skated as a child, and wouldn't have even considered doing it.

I skate because it's something I know how to do. I totally admire people who start as adults, but recognize that maybe they are not quite as comfortable on the ice as I am.

I may not jump or spin anymore, but I sure do love to skate!!

[NCSkater02]

I've been doing LTS for 3 1/2 years, plus private lessons. ALL of the kids that started at the same time as I did are well ahead of me. Is it because they skated more? Probably. But, did they work as hard as I did? Probably not.

Then coaches tell kids to do something, they do it. When my coaches tell me to do something, I ask questions (after the initial "are you trying to kill me?") Where is my weight supposed to be? Where are my arms?....you get the picture.

Most kids probably start when they are active and fit. I was 38 and an overweight couch potato. I've lost 35+ pounds, with about the same still to go. Do most of the kids have that problem?

When kids fall, if they get hurt, they may miss some school. When I broke my ankle, I missed 4 days of work, some of it unpaid. Luckily, my manager was able to shift my job, because there is no way I could be an Operating Room nurse on crutches. Is that a kid issue?

This is a never-ending discussion, and we all just have to agree to disagree.

By the way, my most difficult jump is a waltz-half toe loop.

[Casey]

Then coaches tell kids to do something, they do it. When my coaches tell me to do something, I ask questions (after the initial "are you trying to kill me?") Where is my weight supposed to be? Where are my arms?....you get the picture.
Bingo. This is exactly the point that I'm getting at. "Diminishing attitude" may be a poor term for those who want to nitpick, but this is exactly what I meant by it. We usually don't trust enough to take blind leaps of faith as our coaches tell us to as we get older, and even when we do, we do so with much less confidence which doesn't get us as far.

When kids fall, if they get hurt, they may miss some school. When I broke my ankle, I missed 4 days of work, some of it unpaid. Luckily, my manager was able to shift my job, because there is no way I could be an Operating Room nurse on crutches. Is that a kid issue?
As I said, the additional worries adults have are not necessarily unjustified, but they are there, and this is the biggest difference, more than any physical limitations.

This is a never-ending discussion, and we all just have to agree to disagree.
Agreed! :D It's a hard topic to debate without offending some people, but I prefer to make my opinion known anyways. I know what my goal for my mental determination is anyways, though I don't know if I will ever manage to accomplish it. :P

[samba]

Casey - You know what Casey, I used to think like you when I was 25!!

I dont think you will ever understand the late starter problems because luckily for you your'e only 25 and although a late starter you are still relatively not that late a starter, I started skating on and off when I was pushing 40, I'm now 56 the only time I have ever done axels or doubles is in my dreams and if I tried now, no matter what the mental attitude I know it wouldn't happen and I would be very very stupid to try.

I took a 25 year old, to an adult competition once and she fell about laughing watching some of the skaters until I reminded her that some were older than her mum and could she see her mum doing this?

When it comes to courage, for me its not in the flash skaters that have been born with a silver spoon in their mouths and been skating since they can walk. Its in people like yourself who struggle to scrape the money up to buy boots with only yourself for support, or the downs syndrome man that enters every year at our Bracknell adult open, or the man that had a heart attack 2 years ago and still continues to compete, the list is endless.


Time and again I see young people come on the ice hardly able to put one foot in front of the other and I know 2-3 years down the line they will be popping axels and at least working on their doubles whilst I'm still struggling with my singles, that's a fact of life and it isnt going to change. I'm just pleased with the things I have achieved and continue to set goals for myself.

Right now my goal is to get some sleep, it's 2.55am and I cant sleep with the flu, no wonder I'm a grumpy old *** night night everybody.

Cheers
Grace

[TreSk8sAZ]

You know, I really have always found this topic vaugely amusing. It always focuses on adults who started as adults that have to compete against adults who started as kids. How unfair it is, or how the adult who started as an adult will never get the jumps or never look as comfortable on the ice as others. The most amusing thing to me is the "it's purely mental" attitude that many take.

But no one ever thinks twice about saying a 20-year-old should not be competeing against the 10-12 year olds (or younger) in the standard track. As someone who began at age 19 (for while I did skate as a kid, I didn't really get far enough in ISI to jump and had to quit shortly after I started), I have had to do standard track. I've been forced to get my doubles (something I wanted to do anyway) much quicker than if I had skated adult track.

I know that my 19-year-old body simply cannot bend the same way or do the same things as these little tiny 10-year-olds. Plus, I've lost the "cuteness factor" that goes in with many of the lower levels. I don't have the same look on the ice in terms of the ease of my skating, though I don't look frightened either. My body just doesn't have the same fluidity as some (and I was a competitive stage dancer for 14 years). I still compete because I love it. I've worked my a** off for the last two years to get my double lutz. Do I expect someone else to do the same? no.

It's the same principle, really, as someone who started at my age versus someone who started even ten years older. Their body simply does not bend or work the same way as mine. It's not to say that they can't do the same things as I can, but it will probably take longer no matter how hard they work.

I know a 72-year-old woman who still competes at the Silver level (not so much this year, but previously). She's done Peach, she's done Adult Nationals. She started as an adult. She has all of her singles, though as she ages her lutz is going a bit. She skates every day. She will never have doubles, no matter how much she wants to. Her body cannot hold up to the strain that learning these jumps would cause. She also has one of the best camel spins I have seen to date.

I'm 21. I've been in competitive sports all my life. I know my limits. I push them every day, hence the broken wrist, hand (which happened during finals so I had to take all oral finals), a 2nd degree friction burn on my knee, and assorted others. Some of the falls I've taken could have caused MUCH worse damage to someone older. It's not a mental thing, it's a fact of life. You can have all of the confidence in the world at age 72 and still be realistic.

Not fatalistc (I can't ever do this), but REAListic (you know, my body is older and doing a double lutz is more than it can handle). Adult skaters can do whatever they wish, providing their bodies will let them.

[stardust skies]

Perhaps I was a little too broad. When writing in this thread, I had in mind people who started in their 20's or 30's. Do I think a 60 year old could ever land a triple? I think it's possible. Do I think it's likely? No, most likely it's not. But I don't think anything is impossible, either, the human body keeps surpassing itself.

What I do think, is that someone who started anywhere between the ages of 18-30 have every chance of landing doubles, or even triples (at least as much a chance as the kids). Of course, you can't start adding variables- I mean yes, there actually IS a huge child obesity problem. So if you say you started at 38 but were a couch potato, you'll have as much luck with doubles/triples as an out of shape child, although it'll probably be easier for them to lose the weight (then again if they have parents that teach them bad choices about food, they might have a harder time than you, because as an adult you are more aware of how to make smart choices and you can cook for yourself). But I'm saying....if equally talented, equally fit, equally healthy people of ages 10 and 20 started skating at the same time, and were training with the same coach for the same number of hours and bla bla bla, and the only variable was age, I actually think the 20 year old might be further along at 25 than the 10 year old would be at 15. At best, they'd be equal IMO.

Obviously as people pointed out, variables do come into play as people get older, but I then think you should say "I can't learn to do doubles because I cannot afford to put enough time into the sport", not "I can't learn to do doubles because I'm 25."

This may indeed by a naive way to look at things, and honestly I'm terrified to think of how my body will be when I'm 25, or 30, or 40...but when I was a little Intermediate skater, I was also terrified of turning 18, and no limbs have fallen off since I hit the big 1-8. 18 is already supposed to be "retirement" age for us girls. I've found that not to be true- I'm in way better shape now that I was at 16. And I work smarter. I have had a lot of injuries to deal with, as Casey pointed out, so I can join the back, knee, whatever discussions now. I'm in pain very often, and most of the injuries are overuse injuries, because I've been skating so damn long. If I had a brand new, uninjured 20 year old body who had never skated, I'm convinced that I could learn to do the jumps I do now in maybe 5-7 years time, and that'd still make me less than 30. Actually even with the injured and fixed-up body I have now, if I had to learn from scratch, I am pretty convinced I could. I might be wrong. But I believe it.

I completely agree to disagree. But I do think that some of you are selling yourselves short. I think the biggest thing is that if I said..."okay, how many of you want to train to go to Nationals (the standard ones)? I don't think many of you would go for it, whether it be time, money, belief that you could never do it...or whatever other reason. The kids, even if they will never make it, train with the Olys, or at least Nationals in mind. They know they HAVE to have these huge jumps. I agree with Casey that it is more of a mindset, or circumstantial thing than age, esp. in the 20-30's range. If you were training to compete in, say, Novice Nationals...you'd have to get a double axel and a few triples, there would be no choice afforded to you about it. And I think if there was real support and motivation and people telling you that it's possible to do a triple "at your age" and you had the time and money (and interest, as I'm not sure all that many of you would actually *want* to work on triples, with everything that comes with them...) then I think that about as many of you would land them as kids do- which is not many, but it's not zero. In my opinion a 25 year old body is a 25 year old body. Will a 25 year old who has skated all their life be at the same level as a 25 year old who has skated for a year? No. But can the less experienced 25 year old catch up if given enough time? I honestly think so.

Just my thoughts. Perhaps naive, and uninformed. But my thoughts all the same. :)

[samba]

Well I'm still here, still cant sleep, husband snoring isnt helping!!


Perhaps I was a little too broad. When writing in this thread, I had in mind people who started in their 20's or 30's. Do I think a 60 year old could ever land a triple? I think it's possible. Do I think it's likely? No, most likely it's not. But I don't think anything is impossible, either, the human body keeps surpassing itself.
Now that's something I would like to be around to see!!




This may indeed by a naive way to look at things, and honestly I'm terrified to think of how my body will be when I'm 25, or 30, or 40...but when I was a little Intermediate skater, I was also terrified of turning 18, and no limbs have fallen off since I hit the big 1-8. 18 is already supposed to be "retirement" age for us girls. I've found that not to be true- I'm in way better shape now that I was at 16. And I work smarter. I have had a lot of injuries to deal with, as Casey pointed out, so I can join the back, knee, whatever discussions now. I'm in pain very often, and most of the injuries are overuse injuries, because I've been skating so damn long. If I had a brand new, uninjured 20 year old body who had never skated, I'm convinced that I could learn to do the jumps I do now in maybe 5-7 years time, and that'd still make me less than 30. Actually even with the injured and fixed-up body I have now, if I had to learn from scratch, I am pretty convinced I could. I might be wrong. But I believe it.
I remember crying on my 16th birthday because I thought I was over the hill.

Will a 25 year old who has skated all their life be at the same level as a 25 year old who has skated for a year? No. But can the less experienced 25 year old catch up if given enough time? I honestly think so.
Maybe, but I have yet to see it for myself.

Just my thoughts. Perhaps naive, and uninformed. But my thoughts all the same. :)
Fair enough that's what the forum is for, also for people like me who cant sleep, it gives me someone to chat to. :D


Cheers
Grace

PS It's now 4.24am

[Casey]

The most amusing thing to me is the "it's purely mental" attitude that many take.
I don't think it's purely mental, but I think that the mental limits are a much bigger obstacle than the physical ones.

stardust skies put it much better than I could manage in her last post here anyways :)

samba, I hope you get some sleep! Insomnia is not good for skating, I hear... :P

[doubletoe]

Hmm. . . No response yet from the original poster. Isn't it funny how easy it is to throw out a heated topic like the potential of adult skaters and just watch everybody go? ROFL!

[Casey]

Hmm. . . No response yet from the original poster.
Actually, they did respond :P

It's not just fear that's holding most adults back...

[samba]

ok, my most difficult jump is toe salchow, thrilling isnt it, well for me it is, think I will try to go back to sleep as Casey said - a skater needs her sleep zzzzzzzzzz

Cheers
Grace

[Casey]

ok, my most difficult jump is toe salchow
I can cheat that jump quite well. :P The regular salchow is my best non-cheated jump. I did a few non-cheated rittbergers once, but they've escaped me, probably mostly because I can't backspin. :( European jump names are fun. :D

[samba]

I can cheat that jump quite well. :P The regular salchow is my best non-cheated jump. I did a few non-cheated rittbergers once, but they've escaped me, probably mostly because I can't backspin. :( European jump names are fun. :D

Rittbergers????

[Casey]

Rittbergers????
The original name for the loop jump, after it's inventor, Werner Rittberger. It's used in some parts of Europe, much like toe salchow is used for what we call the flip.

[batikat]

I think it's the fault of attitude and determination, not age; though most often attitude and determination diminish with age.

I think as I was the person who asked about whether the original poster meant adults as in over 18's, or adults as in those who learnt to skate as adults, I'd like to come back here especially with regard to this post above.


I started skating at 36 along with my kids who were then 8 and 10. I managed to keep up with my daughter through learn to skate group lessons although son already streaked ahead ( natural ability and extra strength as a boy). They have their lessons (even now) and then either get off the ice or play with their friends. Practice? - they don't know the meaning of the word, yet 6 years along they both have doubles and have skated at national level in pairs as well as having many Opens medals.

I am still struggling with the Loop and no matter how hard I try I will always have 'the look' of an adult skater.

Do they have the better attitude and determination? Actually, no they do not. I have the same coach as them, who is very encouraging to adult skaters and NEVER tells me I can't do something. I spend my time on the ice practising and I have more lessons than they do. My goal (aside from jumps)is to stop looking like an 'adult skater'. The difference is not only in the jumps but in the BASIC SKATING. It is very difficult (for a great many reasons - some of which have been touched upon by Stardust skies and Casey) for adults to get rid of 'the look' not least of which is that the older you are when you start, the more your muscles have learned to do things a certain way and you are having to overcome ingrained muscle habits. The kids have 'skating' muscle habits ingrained from the start and so will always have an advantage even when they are adults and even when they have taken a break from skating for many years.

It also explains why those adult starters who are more succesful at jumps and general skating tend to have been gymnasts or dancers or roller skaters or whatever previoulsy so they have similar muscle memories. Does anyone know if the Kim Sailer mentioned earlier was a dancer or gymnast previously? Also of course the younger adults have less of a hard time than the older adults and unless you are an older adult when you start, you probably won't be able to understand the difference (unless you suddenly take up an entirely new sport and then you'll see!)

I have also competed against a 19 year old who had been skating a similar length of time to me - despite the fact she had no regular coach and a crummy rink she was on a different level entirely as far as speed/style/flow/grace etc. I enjoyed skating with/against her but it was hardly a fair competition! (In truth she would have normally tested out of my level but had no testing sessions she could get to)

That was why I asked the original poster to clarify which type of adult skater they meant as there is a difference and I would love to hear about more 'learnt as an adult' skaters who are managing to achieve the big jumps (despite adult handicaps of money/time/alternative comittments /appreciation of the consequences of falling/ageing bodies etc) as it gives us old fogeys (43!) some hope!


I love Schmecks coach's comment on adults learning jumps..

My skating coach explained it quite nicely to me once (after I wiped out on a side to side toe jumpy thing) "Kids just haven't developed the common sense to realize that skating can be painful" Or did she use the word "deadly"...

.

:bow: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Mrs Redboots]

When Ottavio Cinquanta formally announced recognition of our skating, he distinguished "Adult and Masters" skating as two new ISU disciplines.

I think that's quite a good way of putting it. Okay, so not all Masters skated as children (I can think of at least one who didn't), and not all Adults will have started in their 30s or 40s - some who skated as kids took such a long gap, or simply never got to a high enough standard, that Masters is not an appropriate level for them. But by and large, it works for me!

And when I think that I was told, when I started skating, that Adults just danced, they didn't jump, spin or compete..... well, we've come a very long way in ten years!

[manleywoman]

Wel, let's see . . I skated as a kid and got through many dances, some figure tests, and jumping-wise through 2toe, and was working on 2loop when I quit.

After 13 years off the ice and picking it up again at the age of 26ish, sure I had much muscle memory and basics, but I had to re-learn a lot of things. I could get through all the singles well but they weren't great technique-wise. Actually the only thing that seemed to still be perfect were my flying camel and sitspin. I have a fairly frightening looking axel (though I rarely miss it) that 5 coaches haven't been able to fix, so someone must have taught me improperly as a kid. It took until I was 30 to get a 2loop, and I'm still at 34 working very hard on 2flip and 2lutz, yet to be landed.

Let's recap: I skate 8 hours a week very hard with one of the top coaches in the area, lift weights and do off-ice jumping, and it's been 4 years between getting the 2loop and 2flip/2lutz. AND I skated as a kid. So perhaps if I could skate 5 hours a day like elite kids and didn't actually have to work, I could cut that time in half to 2 years. But I'm telling you, many 9-14 year olds wouldn't take 2 years to go from 2loop to 2flip.

So in conclusion, even if you had the advantage of skating as a kid, and you are as gutsy and strong as I am, it still is a slower learning process.

Which is not to say that I won't get through 2flip and 2lutz (I'm painfully close) and attempt to start learning triples at age 35! I'm skipping 2axel though: I hate single axels and since it's not a requirement, I'm going straight to 3salchow!

[rf3ray]

A while back, I had someone say that I was a good height (being small) for being a skater, I am wondering if that is true in skating that it could be harder for a taller person, or it might be just a myth?

[stardust skies]

A while back, I had someone say that I was a good height (being small) for being a skater, I am wondering if that is true in skating that it could be harder for a taller person, or it might be just a myth?

I guess it depends on what you mean by "tall". I think it also depends more on how well you control your body than how tall you are. I mean, look at Todd Elderedge, or more recently Evan Lysacek. VERY tall guys, VERY good. I also don't think of Evgeni Plushenko, Stephane Lambiel, or any other guy that's been on the podium recently as anything but tall. The only short skaters that come to my mind are Elvis Stojko, Dan Hollander, and Stefan Liedeman. I think the trend is that guys are taller now than they used to be (at least in skating) and I think that any issues you may have with being taller can be made up by having good technique, while any advantage that may be had by being shorter (if any) can be undone by bad technique.

All in all, I think it's about technique more than body type. So long as you're healthy and fit, I think you've got as much of a shot if you're short than if you're tall, regardless of any old wives tales that may be floating around. The only time I think height really comes into play is for dance and pairs, and it's more about finding the right height partner than about your height itself.

As far as ladies, look at Carolina Koster (who's got some of the best jumps around) and Maria Butyrskaia (who kicked butt and won a World Championship at age 29). They are tall ladies, and amazing skaters. So I really all think it doesn't matter in the end.

[NCSkater02]

there actually IS a huge child obesity problem.

Obviously as people pointed out, variables do come into play as people get older, but I then think you should say "I can't learn to do doubles because I cannot afford to put enough time into the sport", not "I can't learn to do doubles because I'm 25."



But most overweight kids won't be on the ice. Most of the kids that start skating are tiny little things. I'm always afraid I won't see one of them, skate into them and squash 'em. :roll:

I've had two different coaches tell me--while still struggling with half jumps--that I will do doubles in the future because my jumps are "powerful." I personally think they are on drugs, but I am aiming for doubles....eventually. Right now, I'm aiming to get all my halves as soon as my new blades come in.

[renatele]

Not really on topic, but I had to laugh at your perception of a "tall" skater - Todd is 5'8" (2" shorter than I am, and I'm a woman), and Carolina Costner is about 5'5"-5'6" I think - hardly "tall" in my book!

When you are 5'10" adult woman, with hefty hips and significant bust, the height does matter - I think you yourself have pointed out that growth spurts hinder the skaters in childhood (sorry no time to reread the whole thread), similar thing happens here. Sure, one can always learn to adjust/compensate with technique, but physicists would tell you all about the body mass being further away from the center of rotation and how it affects the jumps/spins, etc. Fact is, when you are 5'10", there's way more balancing involved even in a simple sit spin as your foot ends up being further away from your body than shorter skater's does, thus centering is more difficult (and don't forget about those hips/bust women have).

In short, I both agree and disagree with you - while yes, disadvantage can be overcome by good technique, given skaters of similar technique, the taller one will be at a disadvantage. There's also a reason we don't normally see elite women skaters above 5'5"-5'6" and with sizeable hips/bust.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "tall". I think it also depends more on how well you control your body than how tall you are. I mean, look at Todd Elderedge, or more recently Evan Lysacek. VERY tall guys, VERY good. I also don't think of Evgeni Plushenko, Stephane Lambiel, or any other guy that's been on the podium recently as anything but tall. The only short skaters that come to my mind are Elvis Stojko, Dan Hollander, and Stefan Liedeman. I think the trend is that guys are taller now than they used to be (at least in skating) and I think that any issues you may have with being taller can be made up by having good technique, while any advantage that may be had by being shorter (if any) can be undone by bad technique.

All in all, I think it's about technique more than body type. So long as you're healthy and fit, I think you've got as much of a shot if you're short than if you're tall, regardless of any old wives tales that may be floating around. The only time I think height really comes into play is for dance and pairs, and it's more about finding the right height partner than about your height itself.

As far as ladies, look at Carolina Koster (who's got some of the best jumps around) and Maria Butyrskaia (who kicked butt and won a World Championship at age 29). They are tall ladies, and amazing skaters. So I really all think it doesn't matter in the end.

[sceptique]

As far as ladies, look at Carolina Koster (who's got some of the best jumps around) and Maria Butyrskaia (who kicked butt and won a World Championship at age 29). They are tall ladies, and amazing skaters. So I really all think it doesn't matter in the end.

Encouraging, as I happen, as I've mentioned, to be a healthy 5'11'' :D The only problem I've noticed so far is that my bum happens to be good 3 feet above ice level, so when I land on it.... well, let's say, I'm now getting used to sleeping on my tummy. :lol: :lol:

[Mrs Redboots]

But most overweight kids won't be on the ice. Most of the kids that start skating are tiny little things. I'm always afraid I won't see one of them, skate into them and squash 'em. :roll: Oh, I dunno - I know at least three kids who skate to get, and keep their weight down. In one case, the chubbiest 8-year-old you ever saw is now a tall and slender 17-year-old. Another seriously fat 10-year-old is now 12, and, while far from slender, a great deal slimmer than she once was - and currently my coach's best skater at her level. A third has fined down a great deal, although she is still chubby.

I don't think any of their parents expect them to get to the Olympics, or even to the British Championships - but they all enjoy their sport.

[Skate@Delaware]

We have a few chubbies who skate at my rink. They haven't really lost any more weight, but at least they haven't gained any, but they don't skate more than 1-2 times a week (ice dance). I'm sure once they reach puberty their weight might change, hopefully for the better (once they get a few inches of height to them).

[manleywoman]

I mean, look at Todd Elderedge, or more recently Evan Lysacek. VERY tall guys, VERY good.

Uhhh, ever stood next to Todd Eldredge? He is VERY SHORT! I'm 5'4" and we were the same height. :lol: :lol:

[NCSkater02]

Just like adults--a few chubbies. Some of us lose weight--ever so slowly--but a lot never start. But by and far, most young skaters are slim. There are two bigger girls at the two rinks I skate on a regular basis--both are better than I am, and one of them started about a year ago. They still learn faster. :roll:

[Debbie S]

Uhhh, ever stood next to Todd Eldredge? He is VERY SHORT! I'm 5'4" and we were the same height. :lol: :lol:

I think Todd's official bios always listed him at 5'8". That might be off by an inch or 2 (Elvis Stojko's bios said 5'7" and he is a bit shorter than Todd, but I think Elvis might have exaggerated his height a bit too). I have a couple of pics of me with Todd and I'd say he's got at least 6 inches on me (I'm about 5'0" - OK 4'11 1/2", but in any kind of shoes, I usually hit 5'0"). :)

[luna_skater]

Todd is definitely short. I'm 5'7-5'8 and when I saw him at Skate Canada a few years ago he was shorter than me.

[TaBalie]

I took a small class with Elvis yesterday for several hours (so was standing directly next to him on the rink, etc), and I am 5ft 1... He maybe was 5ft3, 5ft4 at the MOST (more like 5ft3). No way 5ft7 LOL.

[sk8er1964]

Which is not to say that I won't get through 2flip and 2lutz (I'm painfully close) and attempt to start learning triples at age 35! I'm skipping 2axel though: I hate single axels and since it's not a requirement, I'm going straight to 3salchow!

You go girl!!! :bow: I have dreams of having a double axel by the time I'm 50 (no triples ;) ). First, though....the "lesser" doubles :lol: .

[stardust skies]

Uhhh, ever stood next to Todd Eldredge? He is VERY SHORT! I'm 5'4" and we were the same height. :lol: :lol:

Yes actually I have, and I'm an inch shorter than you. He looked a good 6 inches taller than me. Perhaps he's not as tall as Lysacek or other skaters that I could name if I sat down and thought about it for longer than I have, but I don't consider 5'8 to be all that short. 5'6 and below is short for men, 5'2 and below is short for women. That's just my personal opinion, obviously it varies from person to person.

[Casey]

I'm 5'11" and while jumps came fairly easily, spins took a lot of work. I've heard that spinning is easier for shorter folk because they have a lower center of gravity, but then again I've heard spins take a lot of work for everyone. *shrugs* I think skating just isn't the easiest thing in the world, and takes a lot of work for anyone. But then I guess I've made my "it's mostly mental - go practice more" stance well enough known already. ;) :P

[sunshinepointe]

^ Ditto. I'm 5'10" (female) and I'm an average weight. My jumps have the height for triples (or so I've been told) but my spins take a lot more work. The actual spinning part isn't hard, it's the centering aspect. I've gotten a pretty decent sit spin, my scratch spin is on 75% of the time these days (better than the 25% last week, yuck) and my camel is "getting there", but I've been trying to break years of ballet training (stupid chest needing to be parallel - what's that about?). I've only been skating for a year total (started at 21, skated for a couple of months, took 2 years off but couldn't stay away!) and I expect that I'll start on my axel within the next 6 months, and I think doubles will come not too long after that since I have very quick rotation.

That having been said, a friend of mine who is about 5'5" can't jump to save her life and although she can center a spin she looks very awkward out on the ice and she's been skating for a little longer than I have. Theres also another younger girl at my rink who can spin like crazy even though she's tall, but can't jump.

So I think height and weight is pretty irrelevant - I think natural talent will take over and you'll have to work up from there.

[Skate@Delaware]

My daughter is 5'3" and a bit overweight (by about 15 pounds) and 16 years old. That being said, she has been skating for just under a year and got her loop after just 9 months of lessons. She did a waltz jump and was about 2" off the ice and even scared her instructor. However, her spins were really crappy for the longest time-they are just now getting somewhat centered.

So, except for her stature, she's like Sunshinepointe except without the ballet training-she gets lots of height on her jumps without really trying but has to work at the spins. She is determined to work on her axel-she even wants to skip her other jumps and I'm sure if she really wanted to do it, she would pop one off (luckily, she hasn't tried). I'm not sure if that's natural talent or just being young. All I know is I can't keep up with her.

[crayonskater]

I
Most kids probably start when they are active and fit. I was 38 and an overweight couch potato. I've lost 35+ pounds, with about the same still to go. Do most of the kids have that problem?


Lots of $0.02.

Hmm. I think I'm going to split the difference here. I agree with Casey and stardust that quite a lot of what holds adult skaters back is mental, and to some extent the belief that 'Skill XYZ isn't possible for me, I'm too old.' And I think it would be helpful for many adult skaters to think to themselves, 'No Limits'. Surround yourself with encouraging people; the young women at my rink are absolutely certain that I'll land all my singles minus axel this year -- I'm sure I'd feel different if I stepped on the ice with them sneering.

On the other hand, there are many things that go along with age. And while everyone may be saying, oh, it's not age, it's commitment, blah blah..... there are real limitations, such as losing weight, beginning with old injuries, never having been athletic.... loss of flexibility. Sure, maybe that's not *technically* being old, but being heavy, inflexible, etc.... but there's a definite correlation there.

Brief case in point. When I was 16 I joined a dance team with little experience.... we had to do a split in our performance. So I did one. Ten years later? I'm still flexible by most people's standards. But that split is gone, and I am in good shape. That's just age (and not focusing on stretching.)

The flexibility loss, imo, is the biggest thing next to the mental.. but the mental is a function of age, too.... when you're five and learning to skate, sure, it's weird, you may fall, it's awkward at first... but so is EVERYTHING ELSE YOU DO. What's to worry about falling when skating when you probably fall over just standing there anyway?

[flo]

When you're 5 and fall the recovery time from injuries - even small ones - is significantly shorter than at 45!
I'm pretty gutsy on the ice, but I've also noticed the age related changes even since I started skating (as an adult) about 15 years ago.
There's no replacement for the experience of time, but also none for the physical benefits of youth!

[jenlyon60]

I think it's also the concern about injuries impacting home life (housework etc.), errands, and work. Some employers don't take kindly to a worker taking lots of time off for medical appointments, even when they have the time off available. And if you live alone, it can be a double whammy.

about 6 years ago now I blew my left knee out skiing. I had to get someone to drive me home from the ski resort (luckily I had some co-workers who had driven up separately with more than 1 person in the car). Then I had to get someone to drive me to work for the next week until the swelling had gone down enough for me to try and deal with driving. That also meant I had to get someone to drive me to/from the primary care doctor's office, and to/from the orthopod's office, and to/from physical therapy and to/from the grocery.

I had to find someone to help me with laundry because my washer/dryer was on the bottom level of my 3-level townhouse, because I wasn't mobile enough to do crutches and carry laundry. And luckily that same person was willing to clean my cat's litter box.

Then 5 months later, I went through the same thing for about a week post-op.... but at least that time I was able to plan ahead and ask friends for assistance ahead of time.

[luna_skater]

...when you're five and learning to skate, sure, it's weird, you may fall, it's awkward at first... but so is EVERYTHING ELSE YOU DO. What's to worry about falling when skating when you probably fall over just standing there anyway?

PML! :lol: