Oberstdorf - video

[Belusova]

Does anyone know how to obtain a video or dvd copy of some of the adult-competition in Germany?

[kunduchaiko]

Belusova,
You might as well forget asking this question. I have noticed that this is the 2nd time you have asked and no one has replied. Obviously these people paid thousands$$$$$ of dollars to go to Germany to compete against a weaker field than adult nationals for the privilege of feeling "international" and getting their medals in the middle of the ice with "olympic" music playing. If it was you Belosova, would you want someone else to get a $75 or $90 dvd / video of you so that they could compare what you and the rest of the competitors have done to the code of points results on the ISU board so that they too could understand what the new judging system is like? I don't think so.

K Chaiko

[Mrs Redboots]

There is really no need to be offensive.


---oo0oo---


Belusova, why don't you contact Rhea Schwartz, who organised the competition - she would know about the video. I haven't heard anything, but it's barely a fortnight since the competition finished, and it may be the videos aren't ready yet.

[kunduchaiko]

Mrs Redboots,
It was lovely for you to respond to Belusova,
You are not from the U.S. , right? Is there less of an "undercover" cut-throat attitude and cattiness in skating where you are?

[Casey]

Belusova,
You might as well forget asking this question. I have noticed that this is the 2nd time you have asked and no one has replied. Obviously these people paid thousands$$$$$ of dollars to go to Germany to compete against a weaker field than adult nationals for the privilege of feeling "international" and getting their medals in the middle of the ice with "olympic" music playing. If it was you Belosova, would you want someone else to get a $75 or $90 dvd / video of you so that they could compare what you and the rest of the competitors have done to the code of points results on the ISU board so that they too could understand what the new judging system is like? I don't think so.

K Chaiko
Oh how mature, yet another attack on Burton... Congratulations for being a complete and utter arse in public, yet again. I sincerely hope you never succeed in anything you attempt to accomplish. Your attitude discredits the entire skating community - I hope you're proud of that.

[samba]

Mrs Redboots,
It was lovely for you to respond to Belusova,
You are not from the U.S. , right? Is there less of an "undercover" cut-throat attitude and cattiness in skating where you are?

Great description of yourself Kunduchaiko I couldn't have put it better myself.

[kunduchaiko.]

Oh how mature, yet another attack on Burton... Congratulations for being a complete and utter arse in public, yet again. I sincerely hope you never succeed in anything you attempt to accomplish. Your attitude discredits the entire skating community - I hope you're proud of that.

Um Casey....this has nothing to do with Burton. Belusova asked a simple question...TWICE... and no response..and everyone else can have their questions answered about any assortment of trivial information, post experiences about going up the mountains, and sharing pictures and whatever.

and Samba - I have seen with my own eyes 2 adult competitiors (one of who is now an adult USFS representative and another who regularly posts here) try to sabotage another skater's equipment before a competition in hopes of qualifying for nationals. I have also heard with my own ears skaters who tell stories of how adult skating is all about the comraderie and not so much the medals, but then turn around and totally trash another competitior who was favored to win..
Cattiness in eligible skating and most individual competitive sports is almost legendary and there is really no pretense about that..
Call it for what it is - Competitive adults push their old bodies to the limit and fork over enormous amounts of cash want something ( a medal ) to show for it and there is no reason to think that adults would be any different from any other athlete.

I would rather see true rivalry then have people smile endlessly in my face and then stab me in the back many times over.


Well, this did accomplish one thing.. by helping to expose what is really under the adult skating surface , Belusova now has access to get the information she wanted and couldn't get before.

K Chaiko

[samba]

Oh dear!! It's a shame you feel that way and thankfully I can't say I have ever experienced what you are describing, yes the odd adverse comment about others goes on at all rinks because human beings attend them but sabotaging equipment is taking things a little too far.

You seem to have a downer on older skaters, I dont know how old you are but if you are young just remember that if you are lucky you will one day be older and hopefully a lot wiser, if you are older then there is no hope.

I have to say that if I felt as badly as you do I would give up.

[manleywoman]

Wow K. Chaiko. You have issues.

I've been to eight Adult Nationals and have never seen anyone sabotage anybody's equipment. Never.

And while I think there are competitors in this sport that talk trash behind people's backs (you're one of them, it seems), I for one think those folks are in the vast minority. There are always going to be a few bad apples in any group. So it's up to the rest of us to ignore them and move on.

And from what I nderstand some of the groups were quite competitive, and not easier than Adult Nationals.

[kunduchaiko.]

but sabotaging equipment is taking things a little too far.

You seem to have a downer on older skaters, I dont know how old you are but if you are young just remember that if you are lucky you will one day be older and hopefully a lot wiser, if you are older then there is no hope.

I have to say that if I felt as badly as you do I would give up.

you are absolutely right Samba. Sabotaging equipment is REALLY going too far, but everyone has heard stories of it about it happening on the eligible scene, and believe me , it too happens on the adult competitive scene. I do not leave my bags unattended anymore at any competition I go to.

As for me giving up??? NEVER!!!- those people will never get the best of me... it's always best to shine a light on what is going on and then stamp them out by winning a medal as a representation of all the love hard work and money I have put into this sport.


Manleywoman, the majority of adult skaters at nationals are not in contention for a medal , this is fine - they go for the enjoyment of the experience and try to do their best while having their new friends support them. For the ones who want and work hard for that medal (which is fine as well) it is a different story. This happens on all levels. from the poor bronze and silver ladies skaters who had many ladies in adult skating on edge with accusations of sandbagging last year, all the way to the gold and masters level this year.

Although it may seem by the relatively small amount of posts that I create here that I have issues , I really don't focus on all of this in my own skating. I just have my eyes WIDE OPEN, and I seriously hope that other people who want to shoot for the top realize that competitive adult skating is not the utopia it seems to be.

K Chaiko

[icecatepairs]

K. Chaiko...
All of this over a question about a video? Hmm...so whats really the issue here? I swore in thepast to not get involved in nasty emails, ( I refuse to even adress the sandbagging comment again.) but since i just returned from a wonderful weekend at an adult training camp, where the attitude amongst the skaters and coaches was possitive and supportive, i have to put in my 2 cents.
Here is a possibility ...the reason no one replied is that they simply don't know. I mean if someone had to ask the question then the information is not easily available. I once made a post inquiring about which company took pictures at a competition, and no one knew. Did it ever occur to you that people want to purchase the video to see friends who competed. and even if it was to study it so what. You refuse to identify where you are from then you leave us know choice but to guess that you are not from the states. If you were, you would know that it is standard practice for skaters to purchase the video of the level above them so they and their coaches can see what is out there in the next level and what they shoud focus on for the next season. its not obnoxious, its just smart. when i first started pairs someone on forums offered me a video of the last 5 years at adult nationals so we could see what was needed to be competitive and where we belonged. it was not someone i had ever met before. I finally met her at nationals where she came to our event and cheered us on.

I could go on forever, but you get the point. I find that most people who feel no love and support in the adult skating community don't give it either!! I would be curiuos to know what group you hang around becasue most people in this chat room are in the same cirlce, and sorry but we don't have time to between our own skating and supporting each other in competition to bother about destroying other peoples property. everybody skates for their own reasons, some to excel in competiton and some for personal satisfaction. some are recovering from illness and injury to make a comeback in life, and some for the extended family we have all become. If this does not sound like what you experience then i am sorry you have missed out. but when you post nasty threads like that....if i were you i wouldn't leave my skates unattended at a competition, oh and maybe don't wear a green dress ...jealosy is a very ugly color on anyone...as for the new code...well its public information so you are not affecting us by "holding out " on the video. we will all study the code and ask the judges and myriad olympic level coaches in our area we have access to. i hope someday you can have a more enjoyable experience in the sport.

[Terri C]

Call it for what it is - Competitive adults push their old bodies to the limit and fork over enormous amounts of cash want something ( a medal ) to show for it and there is no reason to think that adults would be any different from any other athlete.




Well, this did accomplish one thing.. by helping to expose what is really under the adult skating surface , Belusova now has access to get the information she wanted and couldn't get before.

K Chaiko

Slamming adult skating??? Congratulations, YOU ARE ON THE WRONG BOARD AND YOUR POSTS HAVE BEEN REPORTED!!!

[Melzorina]

Competitive adults push their old bodies to the limit

I'm sorry there, (Actually I'm not, because you have no respect for any of the lovely people on this board who put their hearts and souls into doing something they love) but you're way out of line. You have no right to say what you did, and I have no idea what you are getting out of this, if anything it's slightly twisted.

[TreSk8sAZ]

Call it for what it is - Competitive adults push their old bodies to the limit and fork over enormous amounts of cash want something ( a medal ) to show for it and there is no reason to think that adults would be any different from any other athlete.

K Chaiko


Um, could you please define old for me? I'm 21 and considered an adult skater in the U.S. Adult skating in some places doesn't start until 30. Is that old? And trust me, I don't skate just for the medals. Nor do any of the other adult skaters that I know of.

By the way, how did this thread get so off topic? 8O

[Beccapoo2003]

Well said, ICECATEPAIRS!!!!!!
Becca

[jazzpants]

Slamming adult skating??? Congratulations, YOU ARE ON THE WRONG BOARD AND YOUR POSTS HAVE BEEN REPORTED!!!And I would like to add this:

Hey, K. Chaiko...don't even THINK that no one has noticed that your ORIGINAL account was suspended and you created a new account with the same name but with a period? It won't be too long before your NEW account will be banned too!

Oh, AND if you try to create yet another new account with a new name.... LOL!!! Don't even think about it!!! There are ways of dealing with that too! The last time someone tried that...let's just say it wasn't pleasant for that poor fella!!! :evil:

Go ahead! Make our day and try posting more of your "bash adult skating" garbage on this board!!! Humor me and the Administrators and Board Moderators on this board!!! :twisted:

[icecatepairs]

Thank you Becca ..its good to have the support of the crowd...jazzpants..good call on the secret identity..way to pull out the detective work! 8-)

[skaternum]

My suggestion: stop responding to the flame bait that K Chaiko posts! If he didn't keep getting a reaction, he'd stop posting. We all know he's full of crap -- let's just let him eat his own guts out, instead of ours.

(And yes, I do have a few guesses as to who it is. Someone with a few anger issues, his own need to win at all costs, and perhaps a restraining order or two??)

[manleywoman]

I have seen with my own eyes 2 adult competitiors (one of who is now an adult USFS representative and another who regularly posts here) try to sabotage another skater's equipment before a competition in hopes of qualifying for nationals.

Again, I've been skating in either Gold level or Masters level for eight years, and have yet to hear of anyone sabotaging another competitors' equipment. But you can be sure that if I caught someone doing it (as you claims you did), I'd report them to the referee rather than try to "shame" them on a message board. If you witnessed such things, why didn't you report it? You can't just complain about things like this is you've done nothing to stop them. You're an accomplice, frankly.

This happens on all levels. from the poor bronze and silver ladies skaters who had many ladies in adult skating on edge with accusations of sandbagging last year, all the way to the gold and masters level this year

At my level there are no sandbagging issues, since Masters have nowhere to go! So don't try to lay sandbagging charges on the Masters Men/Ladies. We all know each other pretty well, and are for the most part all very good buddies. So I think you're talking out your a$$ when you speak for the Masters crowd.

[flippet]

kunduchaiko, knock it off. You've been banned under one name, yet you come back. Banning should be your clue that you're not welcome here, with your continued attacks and refusal to accept reprimands.

Leave. Do it now.

~flippet

[Belusova]

Before this witch hunt against K Chaiko goes too far with investigations,
guessing and detective work, Kunduchaiko did help to get me the information
that I needed. If I were one of the posters here who post many messages
everyday and are part of this "clique" , I sincerely doubt that there would
be absolutely no response to my first post and especially a brand new
thread I created to bring attention to my question. This thread basically
faded into obscurity and was on the second page without anyone even saying
" belusova, I don't know the answer to your question"....... I was ignored
completely.

While some of K Chaiko's words maybe a little harsh, his/her experiences
about people trying to sabotage other competitor's equipment is quite real
to k chaiko. Why would K Chaiko be full of crap for talking about it? At no
point have I read that this is what K Chaiko was trying to do to other
people. I thought the point of this message board was for everyone to
discuss their experiences in adult skating. Some of them may be negative
and some of them may be positive...

And before any of you get on K Chaiko for bashing individual skaters, I
invite everyone to take a look at previous threads... K Chaiko originally
brought up the stuff about a particular skater fabricating things on their
website, but just as what is being done here to K Chaiko, a mob of people
with torches eventually joined the bandwagon to torch that skater's house
down. Icecatepairs, after the mob turned on you before, why would you turn
around and join this new mob against K Chaiko??? Is it because you are now
entitled to do so because you have won your gold medals are now in the "in
clique"? It doesn't seem fair me.

K Chaiko, thank you for helping me with my information but maybe you can
tone down your words a little however I don't see anything wrong with
reporting things that you have seen in your experiences with your skating.

This particular section of skatingforums is mostly adult oriented. We are
all adults here, not children - I think that we can handle explosive
subjects without reacting the way that this mob scene has reacted here.

[flo]

Belusova,
I'm glad you were helped by K Chaiko. However, as someone reading Chaiko's response, it was very antagonistic and nasty. Also, seeing the number of viewers early on, your thread was not "ignored".

[flippet]

Also, seeing the number of viewers early on, your thread was not "ignored".

I agree. No one is required to respond to a post just to say 'I don't know'...in fact, that sort of amounts to a 'me too' post, which is generally frowned upon in the world of message boards. The rule of thumb that is usually followed is, if you can't add something to a conversation/thread, don't bother. If your feelings are hurt because no one happened to know an answer to your question, perhaps you need to grow a thicker skin. Sometimes you get answers. Sometimes you don't. It usually has more to do with the question than the poster, and having an attitude of 'why won't anyone pay attention to me' won't get you very far.

[havukanessa]

Belusova,
I'm glad you were helped by K Chaiko. However, as someone reading Chaiko's response, it was very antagonistic and nasty. Also, seeing the number of viewers early on, your thread was not "ignored".

as a long time lurker, I just have to say that it seems like a very tight knit group here and that if it were someone like novaskater , icecatepairs or loop loop asking about a video while talking about pairs, at least something would have been written in response. Belusova asked twice and while there maybe alot of people who read the thread, no on had the decency to at least acknowledge it.. to the point where it almost died.

[jazzpants]

This thread basically faded into obscurity and was on the second page without anyone even saying" belusova, I don't know the answer to your question"....... I was ignored completely.Hi, Belusova!

First thing, did you read Mrs. Redboots' response (http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?p=231999#post231999) to you after kunduchiaiko first posting to this thread?

But yes, I don't blame 'ya for feeling like you are totally ignored. As flippet mentioned, it wasn't an intended thing to not respond to your post! (I wasn't at the competition, so I certainly don't know...) And I can assure you there are no "in clique" on this board! I didn't win any trophies or earn my gold medal! If anything I'm just a lowly pre-Bronze skater who's trying to make it to Adult Nationals (and you see that no one has ignored me! LOL!) :lol: :P But we do come down hard on people who don't play nice on this board.

I'm glad you got the help you need from kunduchaiko, I do feel though that s/he did you a disservice of hijacking your thread and spewing out his/her own agenda though. The people that he's attacking are the same people who post on this board and understandably, that will make everyone here them a bit "defensive." And as for the "detective work," if not me, someone else's eagle eyes would have noticed it eventually...

I encourage you to please keep posting on this board! It takes time, but you will be welcomed... (and pray no one will hijack your future threads again!) :lol:

[skaternum]

If I were one of the posters here who post many messages
everyday and are part of this "clique" , I sincerely doubt that there would
be absolutely no response to my first post and especially a brand new
thread I created to bring attention to my question. This thread basically
faded into obscurity and was on the second page without anyone even saying
" belusova, I don't know the answer to your question"....... I was ignored
completely.Yes, that's the way to make friends! Join an online forum. Post only twice in your first month -- both questions; don't participate or contribute in any other way. Get angry when no one answers your second question. Call names.

Yes, well done, Belusova. You've been here less than a month and have just insulted a lot of regular posters here. May I point out that some of the people you refer to as being in the clique are the very people who took the time to respond to your first question about flying spins at the silver level. That's really biting the hand that feeds you. You act like people here owe you a response. Nobody is required to respond to any particular request for info, but most people do if they know the answer. Maybe NOBODY KNEW THE ANSWER. I know I didn't. And it's considered very rude to post a "don't know" and "me too" answer.

While some of K Chaiko's words maybe a little harsh, his/her experiences about people trying to sabotage other competitor's equipment is quite real to k chaiko. Why would K Chaiko be full of crap for talking about it?Because he's already proven himself to be flamebait. And possibly a liar. So I'm not going to give any credence to anything he says.

And before any of you get on K Chaiko for bashing individual skaters, I
invite everyone to take a look at previous threads... K Chaiko originally
brought up the stuff about a particular skater fabricating things on their
website, but just as what is being done here to K Chaiko, a mob of people
with torches eventually joined the bandwagon to torch that skater's house
down.Everyone was in agreement that fabricating things on a website is bad, but most people found the hateful posts K Chaiko spewed to be potentially slanderous (at worst) and in poor tast (at best). Once you've done something like that in the online world, you're not going to be taken seriously. That's nothing new to this forum. But your histrionics are quite ... interesting. Pretending that K Chaiko is some innocent victim is laughable.


Icecatepairs, after the mob turned on you before, why would you turn
around and join this new mob against K Chaiko??? Is it because you are now
entitled to do so because you have won your gold medals are now in the "in
clique"? It doesn't seem fair me.Still winning friends, eh?

This particular section of skatingforums is mostly adult oriented. We are
all adults here, not children - I think that we can handle explosive
subjects without reacting the way that this mob scene has reacted here.Yes, we're mostly adults here. And as adults, we have to accept the consequences of our actions. If you come here spewing hate, you won't be treated very nicely. Get used to it.

[Belusova]

Flippet, my feelings weren't hurt at all.... I even let the thread die
myself figuring that I would somehow figure out the information myself.
Some people on message boards , if they want their thread to be revived,
often post a follow up statement to try to get the information they are
looking for- I didn't do that.

It's ironic that with so many people on this board who attended the ISU
competition, many people viewed my thread, but no one could even muster up
any kind of response. K Chaiko's response was very radical, but ultimately
I finally got someone to respond to my question.

I am also curious Flippet to what you think about my statement of allowing
people to talk about various subjects about skating - whether it's negative
or positive.... after all, this is a message board where people should be
able to express their feelings about a particular subject.. K Chaiko, in
previous threads focused on one person (as did many others still posting
here) however, in this particular thread no single person was addressed.
Looking at when K Chaiko's screen name changed , I think you banned K
Chaiko again only after the poster Casey assumed that it was Burton that K
Chaiko was talking about again which K Chaiko said was not the case. In
fact, K Chaiko also only brought up the equipment sabotage (which no names
were named) and other subjects only after it was he/she that was being
attacked , but in the end are those subjects and others like them really so
bad?

[crayonskater]

I dunno, Belusova. I'm relatively new here and not an avid diarist of all my lessons or thoughts on skating (mostly because 'did pre-bronze moves till cows came home' is a bit dull.), and I've never found the community terribly cliqueish. Obviously, some people know each other better than others and are perhaps more likely to banter on with people, say, they know in real life, but that's some what to be expected no? Nothing harmful with reposting it, or bumping your old thread.

I mean, K. Chaiko's claim bordered on the hysterical and irrational and is easily refuted by looking around the rest of the boards; people give each other all sorts of advice and support all the time, and it's going to be a hard claim to press that they're all giving each other and newbies tips on how to do laybacks and axels yet won't give you the link to purchase a video from an international competition because they're terrified that you'll study their moves and beat them next year.

(Do figure skaters watch tape like football coaches? It strikes me as a bit of a waste of time; it's not like you compete your spirals against one another in a DEATH FIGHT. Being up on new innovations, sure. Knowing roughly what the competition is, sure. But it's not like you can come up with a novel passing screen to ward of a split spiral.)

Why he was banned I'm not sure; delusional conspiracy theorists have their entertainment value... but the mods/admins probably have an interest in not promoting trolls who just make blanket statement like 'NO ONE WILL HELP YOU BE CAUSE YOU MIGHT TAKE THEIR SHINY MEDAL!!!!!11!!!!'

I'm quite certain a discussion of unsportsmanlike behavior would be welcome, if done in a manner that didn't make the poster look totally insane.

[Casey]

as a long time lurker, I just have to say that it seems like a very tight knit group here and that if it were someone like novaskater , icecatepairs or loop loop asking about a video while talking about pairs, at least something would have been written in response. Belusova asked twice and while there maybe alot of people who read the thread, no on had the decency to at least acknowledge it.. to the point where it almost died.
I'm sorry but I just joined this forum 6 months ago and was as much a newbie as anyone else, but I feel quite welcome here, and did from the very beginning. If I see a question to which I don't know the answer, I'm not going to waste everyone's time posting a "sorry I don't know" response, and I wouldn't expect anyone else who didn't know either. What's so hard to believe about the idea that maybe noone knows?

Now, had the post been about something I did know about and otherwise responded to, I might have put at the bottom "Don't know anything about the video though, sorry", because it wouldn't require an extra post.

I doubt anybody else had malicious intentions either, and even if somebody might have posted the "sorry I don't know" post which would have annoyed a lot of people to somebody they are friends with as opposed to somebody they don't know, what's the big deal? You can't reasonably expect people to treat friends and strangers exactly the same.

Why has skatingforums been becoming a bit of a battleground for so many people recently? Jeez, just act normal and play nice. Things might not always go your way and you might not get the "acknowledgement" you want - so what? Move on.

[icecatepairs]

in order to clarufy my previous post i will explain the past circumstances.....no my stating my opinion on the thread has nothing to do with my "gold medals" how i perform on the ice has nothing to do with who i hang around with. i just can't see any correlation in those two issues. no, actually, when I was bashed on the internet it was in an adult chat room that i did not belong too. as a matter of fact i did not belong to any chat groups at the time . My real name was used and some terrible things were said by someone who was angry that i was in the same level as the previous year. The people who posted it were unaware that i repeated a level due to shattering my ankle after AN the year before. would have provided them with an explanation had they simply asked why I had not moved up. I see no reason for any kind of immature junior high school activity such as what they posted. i was told about it and unable to get in the group to defend it. I did not post a nasty thread bashing other skaters . so my right to respond is simply the same as yours ...the fact that this person opened the door to it by posting to begin with. in my situation i was not even aware the room existed. so as you can clearly see, the situations are different.

so with that logical explanation aside, i will add this as well,
I have also posted a thread looking for cantact info for a friend from nationals. no one including my clique of friends responded. I am not offended. They simply did not know and are too busy to respond to every question posted that they do not know the answer to. to this date i have recieved o replies to that. no offense taken.

I feel if someone begins a thread, and more specifically one like that , we all have the right to respond.

[blue111moon]

To specifically address the orginal question of the video: I was at the competition. I ordered the DVD. The company producing it is German. We paid cash. I didn't get the name of the company and they didn't give out receipts just marked our addresses on a list and said it would take a couple of weeks to ship them.

So the reason I didn't respond to the original post is that I didn't know at the time. I figured that when the DVD came, I'd have the information and would post it then. I'm guessing that a lot of other people thought the same thing.

[starskate6.0]

ICECATEPAIRS

Who is you friend ?, Perhapes i know them and can track them down for you.? :?: I too have not yet received my copy of the competition from Obersdorf. ;)

[flippet]

It's ironic that with so many people on this board who attended the ISU
competition, many people viewed my thread, but no one could even muster up
any kind of response.

The reason for this has been addressed, both by myself, and others.


K Chaiko's response was very radical, but ultimately
I finally got someone to respond to my question.

So then....your main purpose was to 'get someone to respond to your question'? Around here, that's called trolling. I understand that your question was perfectly legitimate, and you have every right to receive an answer (if someone knows the answer and feels like, or has the time to, answer), but whining about not getting an answer is simply bad form...talk about needing to behave like adults around here.

I am also curious Flippet to what you think about my statement of allowing
people to talk about various subjects about skating - whether it's negative
or positive.... after all, this is a message board where people should be
able to express their feelings about a particular subject..

Subjects are rarely censored around here. If they are, it's because there has been consistent trouble over them in the past. If people can discuss things rationally, without bashing others, or edging ever closer to slander, then topics are usually left alone. You had the bad luck to come into the middle of this one. Since you don't know the history, perhaps you can refrain from making judgements. (If, however, you do know the history....well then, I can only conclude that you've jumped in to fan the flames.)


Looking at when K Chaiko's screen name changed , I think you banned K Chaiko again only after the poster Casey assumed that it was Burton that K
Chaiko was talking about again which K Chaiko said was not the case.

Think what you like. The poster was banned again because banning is just that--banning. You don't get to come back once you've been shown the door. Try to jump over that, and you'll be banned again. Very simple, actually.




Okay, I'm done with this silliness. This thread is closed. And Belusova....I recommend that you re-think your strident defense of someone when you (likely) don't know the whole story....if you continue, it's very easy to think that perhaps you're a friend of kunduchaiko, and are trying to keep this little war going. Consider yourself warned---I'd avoid this topic again if I were you.

~flippet