U.S. Adult age group changes pass GC

[Debbie S]

I don't see any other announcements about this here so I thought I'd let everyone know that the proposed adult age group changes that were discussed here a few weeks ago have officially passed at USFSA Governing Council.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Story.asp?id=29731&type=news

The changes are listed at the end of the article that announces Hershberger was elected president. Not good news for those hoping for USFSA-driven int'l reforms. Looks like status quo.

As for the age group stuff, I still think it's a bad idea to cut the old Class I in half, especially given the problems attracting a critical mass of these skaters at AN and other comps. IMO, the best solution would have been to completely redraw the divisions for all classes and have an even number of "years" in each - make Class I 21-30, Class II 31-40, etc.

What will most likely happen is that most comps, even those that attract a lot of adults - Peach, HC, New Year's - will probably not get enough entries to have separate comps for Classes I and II and so they will be combined, meaning those in their early 30s could be competing against 21-year-olds, who likely started skating as children or teenagers. That sounds encouraging. :roll:

Oh, and the USFSA approved CoP as the official judging system for all qualifying comps.

No word on the adult MIF changes.

[Mel On Ice]

So I just went from being a Bronze 1 to a Bronze 3?

[Debbie S]

Hey Mel, at least you'll be young in your new group. I've been moved up an age class, and I'm still old! :giveup:

[Mel On Ice]

I knew this was going to be a transistion year, but I feel like I've aged 10 years just before my 36th birthday! 8O

[Figureskates]

Oh my. Now I am class V.

Will someone please hand me my walker, Geritol, and box of Depends? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[pennybeagle]

Wow, I moved to class II faster than I thought I would. So much for ever competing in Gold I.

I am surprised that this passed, and wonder how informed the voting parties were about the state of things in the adult skating community. In addition to the problems that this will (most likely) cause for getting entries for class I, there is the issue that 21 year olds will now be competing in Championships events.

Now, I'm not a Gold or Masters skater myself, but I would be a bit frustrated if I now had to compete against college-age skaters to qualify for the championship events. Will Championships Masters events becoming like another intercollegiate championships (which IIRC, Alissa Csizny won last year, and she has a triple lutz)?!

Well, let's see how the vote on the MITF changes comes out...

[starskate6.0]

I went from class II to class IV,...not sure what that will mean... :roll:
except perhapes more skaters in that group. The qualifying events for next year will be interesting ;) Any one know if we will have the new judging system in place for Adults next year...... :?: i hope so. ;)

[Terri C]

I am surprised that this passed, and wonder how informed the voting parties were about the state of things in the adult skating community. In addition to the problems that this will (most likely) cause for getting entries for class I, there is the issue that 21 year olds will now be competing in Championships events.


I said it before and I'll say it again. This was done because it was noticed that there was a huge drop in adult skating participation and that the 21-24 year old has nowhere to go competitively. Now,if the Adult Skating Committee were really smart, they would have looked at the competitions with young adult categories and saw the low numbers there.

Now, what will happen if one does a non qualifying standard competition with Adult events- I as a 40 year old will be in the same group as a 21 year old. Add to that I'm now a Class III- sheesh!

[sue123]

Deleted it because I read it over and realized it made absolutely no sense. I'll type up what I wanted to say later and promise to make it more coherent.

[flying~camel]

I'm still a class I, so, I may medal at my 1st AN simply because the number of entries will be so low...

[jazzpants]

Go ahead USFSA!!! Make me feel older than I already do right now... :P (And I was just getting used to being in Class II and now I'm in Class III...) :roll:

[NoVa Sk8r]

I say age is just a number--who CARES what age group you are in; so, for example, you've been reclassified from Class II to Class III; you're *still* 36-45 :roll: .

I say let the "kiddies" enter the adult structure. The number of starts is withering, and we need a new bumper crop. If anything, let the "kids" (they're not all skating wizzes!) inspire you to train harder. I know that's easier said than done ...

And look at the winners from AN; the younger folks in each class did not win.
And when I compete in local comps, sometimes silver skaters who are more than 15 years older than myself beat me (I'm 29). ...

(Ok, bring on the attacks ... :P )

[jazzpants]

I say age is just a number--who CARES what age group you are in; so, for example, you've been reclassified from Class II to Class III; you're *still* 36-45 :roll: .(Raising walking cane...) Just you wait, kiddo!!! When you start running into overuse injuries and all sorts of spinal stuff caused by "getting older" and you end up having to readjust your whole entire workout routine b/c of those injuries...you'll think twice about those comments... ;) You're lukcy that you're as flexible as "Silly Puddy" now!!! (Jazzpants then ponders if NoVa is old enough to remember what "Silly Puddy" is...) :P

I say let the "kiddies" enter the adult structure. The number of starts is withering, and we need a new bumper crop. If anything, let the "kids" (they're not all skating wizzes!) inspire you to train harder. I know that's easier said than done ...Yes, there is one young lady who's a young adult that I befriended at Skate SF that I do wish would have the option of competing as an adult and not have to compete against these little pre-prelim kids if she wanted to. (If she is reading this, you know who you are...) ;)

And hey, it's nice to be able to say that I can keep up with "ya young whippa snappas." :twisted: :lol: (Or at least be a KEWL "Auntie Jazzpants" to young girls out there b/c I'm old enough to be their parents but be a skate buddy to them on the ice...while still be able to alert their parents when I see something of concern... b/c, of course, I'm their "Auntie" ;) )

[NoVa Sk8r]

(Raising walking cane...) Just you wait, kiddo!!! When you start running into overuse injuries and all sorts of spinal stuff caused by "getting older" and you end up having to readjust your whole entire workout routine b/c of those injuries...you'll think twice about those comments... ;) You're lukcy that you're as flexible as "Silly Puddy" now!!! (Jazzpants then ponders if NoVa is old enough to remember what "Silly Puddy" is...) :PTrust me; I've had my share of injuries, including 7 back injuries, 2 of which were stress fractures in my lower back. And as a pair skater, I'm getting acquainted with more and more '-itises' week by week. ;)
And again, my flexibility is not natural. I have worked extremely hard to get it (like 7 years?), and I am thorough with my stretches and muscle toning.

[singerskates]

I wonder if these ages catagories will carry to Skate Canada's Adult Program AdultSkate and Skate Canda Adult Championships?

[jazzpants]

Trust me; I've had my share of injuries, including 7 back injuries, 2 of which were stress fractures in my lower back. And as a pair skater, I'm getting acquainted with more and more '-itises' week by week. ;)
And again, my flexibility is not natural. I have worked extremely hard to get it (like 7 years?), and I am thorough with my stretches and muscle toning.Of course, keep in mind I posted that reply tougue firmly in cheek... :P

I'll admit that I'm envious. I started skating when I was 31 and after about 6 years of skating, I'm still crappy when it comes to flexibility... (and I DO stretch and do strength training.) My spiral are finally above hip level now on a FO edge... (It wasn't before...)

I've called in the cavalry now for help... actually, per my secondary coach's wishes, I've started back on pilates again with a new trainer today... We'll see...

I'm lucky I don't have any more back injuries in the meantime (knocking on wooden desk.) Actually, I've been lucky that I don't have as much injuries period. I always thought that my many years of exercise and good training habits at the gym attributed to that. (About 18 years now actually...okay, now I'm feeling REALLY old now!!!) 8O :lol:

[TreSk8sAZ]

This is a reply from the other side. I'm turning 21 in 4 days and I'm quite upset that this passed. In local competitions, none of the adults want us to skate with them because they are so sure that we'll beat them. They can be quite viscious. The first adult competition I skated in one lady had me near tears because of things that she said. I'm sure this isn't the case all over.

I also recently did a project on adult skating for a journalism class I was taking. Every single adult said they did not support this decision because it wasn't fair.

It's also hard because I've been skating standard track. I've been doing doubles and an axel in my programs. I've only tested high enough to be the equivalent of Silver, which means I have to completely change my programs unless I continue skating standard track, if they allow me to.

While sometimes it is hard to compete against the kids, it's also hard to compete against adults who do not want you there. It takes a lot of the fun out of it.

So please, if you get paired with a younger adult skater, be nice. It's not our fault this was passed, and many of us don't like it either.

[vesperholly]

Great, now that I'm FINALLY old enough to do ANs under the old rules, they change them so I could've been competing for four years! :frus: At least I still have three years to try for Gold I.

Wow, COP for Regionals and Adult Sectionals... I'm sure the clubs that put on Regionals are going to be thrilled about the amount of profit $$$ they'll lose by having to use COP.

Does anyone know if the MIF stuff passed?

[jp1andOnly]

probably nothing. Skate Canada has its own thing. We don't really have anythign the same as the Us for adults.



I wonder if these ages catagories will carry to Skate Canada's Adult Program AdultSkate and Skate Canda Adult Championships?

[Lurking Skater]

This is a reply from the other side. I'm turning 21 in 4 days and I'm quite upset that this passed. In local competitions, none of the adults want us to skate with them because they are so sure that we'll beat them. They can be quite viscious. The first adult competition I skated in one lady had me near tears because of things that she said. I'm sure this isn't the case all over.

I also recently did a project on adult skating for a journalism class I was taking. Every single adult said they did not support this decision because it wasn't fair.

It's also hard because I've been skating standard track. I've been doing doubles and an axel in my programs. I've only tested high enough to be the equivalent of Silver, which means I have to completely change my programs unless I continue skating standard track, if they allow me to.

While sometimes it is hard to compete against the kids, it's also hard to compete against adults who do not want you there. It takes a lot of the fun out of it.

So please, if you get paired with a younger adult skater, be nice. It's not our fault this was passed, and many of us don't like it either.

That's a shame that you had to deal with some obviosly immature person who felt the need to do that to you. Not everything in life or skating is fair. There are adults now who skated as children. Do I think it's fair that I have to compete against them? Not really. Am I going to whine and complain and lose sleep over it? Not hardly. I certainly hope that the last line of your post sticks in people's heads when they start competing under the new age rules.

I'll add a third view to this. Not every 21 year old started skating when they were 6. I didn't put on a pair of skated until I was 20. When I was 22, 23, 24, I would constantly get asked why I wasn't competing in some of the adult competitons and I would always tell them that I wasn't old enough to be an adult. That limbo period bites. I'm undecided on how I feel about this change. I understand the concerns that the 25+ crowd have, but I also know what it's like to be stuck in that 21-24 year old void.

[TimDavidSkate]

This will be very interesting.

I like the challenge :lol:

I will compete at the Gold I - Men's level at some local competitions, then of course Silver I - Men at Dallas, TX.

[IceAngel725]

I am really excited about this! I'm turning 19 in July, and I'm excited that i'll be able to compete on the adult track sooner! I've been lucky, the past few years at the preliminary level I've been able to skate in groups with people around my age... but I'm certainly not going to get younger, and it seems to be the trend that most people quit skating when they go off to college, leaving me with competitors that are much younger than me and that have been skating for twice as long! I've always skated with adults (started in an adult lts class) until recently when a lot of the adults at our club (for various reasons) have stopped skating... so at my rink i was always pretty much considered "an adult skater"... it does seem odd that once you suddenly start landing an axel and some doubles that people take notice of you!

[sk8pics]

It's also hard because I've been skating standard track. I've been doing doubles and an axel in my programs. I've only tested high enough to be the equivalent of Silver, which means I have to completely change my programs unless I continue skating standard track, if they allow me to.

While sometimes it is hard to compete against the kids, it's also hard to compete against adults who do not want you there. It takes a lot of the fun out of it.

So please, if you get paired with a younger adult skater, be nice. It's not our fault this was passed, and many of us don't like it either.

I'm so sorry you had a bad time. While I also don't think this decision is fair, I would never give a skater a hard time because of it! It's not like you're not following the rules. But your comment about doing doubles and and and an axel illustrates the potential unfairness of allowing such younger skaters to compete with the older ones.

And yes, Lurking Skater, I know that not every 21 year old started skating at 6. But I have watched a number of skaters start at 20 or 21 and their learning curve is WAY faster than many of the adults who started at 30. It's just a fact of physiology.

Just my opinion, so please don't shoot me for it.

Pat

[mdvask8r]

http://www.marie.org/rink/

The link above is to a blog by one of the GC delegates. She gives an issue-by-issue account of what went on at the GC meeting these past few days. The adult age changes are covered, as well as many other issues. Several interesting comments have been added by readers -- don't miss those.

[NickB]

Well, I for one am glad. It means I'll be eligible in 2 years. I'll be 21 next year but probably not in time for the entry deadline, and plus I'm sure I can't go to Dallas! That means if some of my friends and clubmates decide to go I'll have to go. :lol: Sounds scary. 8O

[TimDavidSkate]

OMG, I'm getting so overwhelmed reading all this ISU-COP requirements.

It's all good though, it makes us a better skater at the end.

[manleywoman]

I say age is just a number--who CARES what age group you are in; so, for example, you've been reclassified from Class II to Class III; you're *still* 36-45 :roll: .

I say let the "kiddies" enter the adult structure. The number of starts is withering, and we need a new bumper crop. If anything, let the "kids" (they're not all skating wizzes!) inspire you to train harder. I know that's easier said than done ...

And look at the winners from AN; the younger folks in each class did not win.
And when I compete in local comps, sometimes silver skaters who are more than 15 years older than myself beat me (I'm 29). ...

(Ok, bring on the attacks ... :P )

No attack here. I agree with you. I'm 33 and get reguarly beaten by women much older than I. I think a lot of posters here may find that they're not going to have as much competition as they think.

[jazzpants]

Hi, TreSk8sAZ!

As someone who has competed against a couple of young'um like you one year, I'll have to say that the person was TOTALLY RUDE and has POOR SPORTMANSHIP!

Last year I was competing as a Class II against other Class II's and one Class IV lady (Darlin' lady from the UK... she did a kite routine!) and I was the youngest of all the competitors. I got my A** wh***ed at that event and was lucky to have even medal. (3 out of 5.) In fact the women who beaten me told me they're going to Class III (now Class IV) this year! 8O (Both ladies were KEWL. One lady I ran into later on at another rink when I was getting my blade realigned and she was nice. The other lady invited me to join her beginning Synch team at her rink, which I have to politely decline since I have WAAAAY too much on my plate now with my own training!) The year before I was competing in the same event but it was a 19 year old, a 20 year old, and a 44 year old. And I ended up with a SILVER!!! (I beat the 19 year old!!!) 8O

The way I see it now... if I have to compete against (the new) Class I skaters, sure I'll feel a bit insecure and all, but I'll welcome 'ya! Come skate with Auntie Jazzpants!!! We'll have fun at the medal stands with the photographers!!! :mrgreen:

Yes, I will admit that it's getting really hard for me to compete with numerous injuries and the "normal wear and tear" becoming more frequent. It just means now I'll have to train smarter so I can limit that frequency now. If MK can do it, why can't I? :mrgreen:

I had a feeling vesperholly was gonna piped up here. (Yeah I know! :frus: ) Loved the comment on the blog about "Adult Nationals means you're old enough to drink!" (when someone proposed changing the starting age from 21 to 18.) :lol:

[Lives to skate]

I am proof that at 47 years old, you can compete with the 25 year olds. I won Championship Gold Men's against many younger competitors. You just need to practice hard and train to your full potential.

When competing in Championship Gold or Masters you hve to be prepared for anything! Age shouldn't matter. Good skating is recognized at any age! Although more seasoned veterans have things that younger competitors don't have, like better edeges and more advanced choreogrpahy. The new COP should favor the well-rounded skaters. Age will just give them an advantage if they use all the other tools to enhance their program.

I really think that my "experience" gave me an advantage over the young 'uns who all seemd a little nervous and worried about the "old man" in the group!

I thrive on competition and seem to rise to the occassion. I love to compete with the best and hope it holds the event to a higher standard.

Trying to bring more skaters into the adult community should be welcomed, as we have worked hard to show we are legitimate force in figure skating. And as the baby boomers get older and die off (god forbid) we need to have a steady replacement or the system will suffer in the future.

Just my thoughts......

Burton Powley 2005 Adult Gold Men's Champion.

[coskater64]

Well i'll be in gold ladies 3 next year. I wonder, if I let the gray hair show will it help me? I like the idea of skating against the younger skaters, what's the difference? I skate against people 15 years my jr already, it's how I skate that matters, plus the people who I skate against are my friends, its not the winning it's the fact that I have the opportunity to compete that matters.

la

[daisies]

Oh, and the USFSA approved CoP as the official judging system for all qualifying comps.

Just want to clarify that CoP was approved for standard-track Junior and Senior at Sectionals and Nationals only for this year. Regionals and Adult Sectionals will not yet use CoP; the plan is for Regionals to start in the 2006-07 season.

I was at GC and both spoke and voted in favor of lowering the adult age to 21. As I said from the floor, with the current minimum age of 25, all of the placers in Championship Gold Ladies this year were mid-30s and above, the Championship Masters Ladies and Men winners were both mid-30s, and the Championship Gold Men winner was mid-40s. Not a 20-something in the bunch, proving younger doesn't always mean better.

Adult skating is a work in progress. We hope this new rule will help bring in more skaters. If it ends up being problematic for some reason, guess what -- WE CAN CHANGE IT! Nothing is ever set in stone forever. That's why we have Governing Council every year!

[sue123]

Personally, I'm glad for the rule change. It means I can start competing earlier. I doubt that I'd be really giving anybody a run for their money, I'm just there for fun. Besides, even if it's true that the younger person learns quicker, well that would mean they wouldn't be in that section anymore, right? So if they pass bronze, then pass silver faster, they would compete there. And in those levels, there is a minimum that needs to be passed, so I don't see why it's such a bad thing. And when I turn 21, if I meet any of you at a competition, please be nice to me :) It's all for fun, really.

[Beccapoo2003]

Aaaargh!!! This means I'll be a FOUR on June 12th! 8O 8O 8O 8O (my birthday and the wonderful day of O'dorf)! Seriously though, I'm glad for the effort to bring more skaters into the Adult ranks. We must accept new ideas and experiment if we are to grow. I think we have to keep an open mind-just look at how far Adult Skating has come in ten years!!!!! :D :D Now we have an ISU comp!!!!! Oh Yeah!!! (head banging w/peace sign)
Adult Skaters rock!!
Becca

[coskater64]

It's scary isn't it becca to go from a 2 to a 4 in one fail swoop. I just got used to being a 2, now I'm a 3. I'm gonna work the limp and fake out the young ones.

la :lol: :lol:

[sk8er1964]

I was at GC and both spoke and voted in favor of lowering the adult age to 21. As I said from the floor, with the current minimum age of 25, all of the placers in Championship Gold Ladies this year were mid-30s and above, the Championship Masters Ladies and Men winners were both mid-30s, and the Championship Gold Men winner was mid-40s. Not a 20-something in the bunch, proving younger doesn't always mean better.

Gee, thanks :roll: Did you poll all of the adults, or did you do this based on your gut feelings? Because if you had polled the adults at the AN competitors party that I heard polled (myself included), you wouldn't have been so happy to put your vote on that side of things.

Seriously, right now it probably won't matter in the champ events. At bronze and silver it definitely doesn't matter. But give it a few years for gold and I think it will. Someone who posted above said she was skating at the kid level that's equivalent of Silver, with a couple of doubles. The standard track test equivalent of Gold has at least three if not four doubles. How many doubles did the Championship Gold medalists have? Oh, and the superior skating skills of the winners won't matter, because the kids will have them.

I know older kid skaters at the Juvenile level who are good skaters -- they simply started too late (like 13) to be successful at the standard track. They, at 20, would kick the back sides of the 30+'s you are mentioning above. Wait until they are 21, with skate mom financially backing them.....national championship here I come! :giveup:

Sorry, I just don't like it. There is a huge difference between a 21 year old and a 40 year old. What's next? Why not let the 18 year olds in? Hey, they're adults -- they're old enough to vote and join the military, right? Under the 21 year old reasoning, they should be old enough to skate adult, right? In for a penny, in for a pound, right?????

[manleywoman]

Gee, thanks :roll: Did you poll all of the adults, or did you do this based on your gut feelings? Because if you had polled the adults at the AN competitors party that I heard polled (myself included), you wouldn't have been so happy to put your vote on that side of things.


Well, I was asked for my opinion, and I was for lowering the age group. So count me as one of the adults in favor. If you had such a problem with it, then next year you spend your time and money to go to GC and speak up.

And in addition, by your logic, if it doesn't matter in Bronze, Silver, or Masters, but MIGHT matter in the future in Gold, then you don't have much of an arguement. We need more adults to enter events, especially in the under-30 category, or ANs will die out due to lack of interest. Period. I think allowing more people to compete trumps your fears that "some" events "might" be affected by this at a later date.

[sk8er1964]

Well, I was asked for my opinion, and I was for lowering the age group. So count me as one of the adults in favor. If you had such a problem with it, then next year you spend your time and money to go to GC and speak up.

And in addition, by your logic, if it doesn't matter in Bronze, Silver, or Masters, but MIGHT matter in the future in Gold, then you don't have much of an arguement. We need more adults to enter events, especially in the under-30 category, or ANs will die out due to lack of interest. Period. I think allowing more people to compete trumps your fears that "some" events "might" be affected by this at a later date.

First, I am not rich, thank you very much. I could barely afford to do sectionals and AN this year. So, any extra money for GC is out of my realm of possibilities. However, if you'd like to sponsor my visit, I'd be happy to attend... ;) I did speak to a couple of people who were going to GC, those who bothered to poll the people at AN, and we had a really good coversation about what I thought the pros and cons of the new proposal were.

Daisies, I am sorry if my response sounded mean. I didn't mean it as a slam on you, and it's nothing against you as a person (although reading back I can see how it could be taken that way -- I swear, it wasn't meant that way). It's just that I feel the same frustration that the people who agreed that voluntary adult MIF's were a good thing and then were blindsided with a vote that approved mandatory adult MIF's.

Manleywomen, I never said it wouldn't matter in masters. I can see it mattering in masters very much. However, not as much as in gold, because masters covers so many standard track tests. For those lower than gold, it will only really effect the lowest age group, because you will never see a 40 year old skating against a 21 year old.

[NoVa Sk8r]

Sorry, I just don't like it. There is a huge difference between a 21 year old and a 40 year old. What's next? Why not let the 18 year olds in? Hey, they're adults -- they're old enough to vote and join the military, right? Under the 21 year old reasoning, they should be old enough to skate adult, right? In for a penny, in for a pound, right?????You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but I must say, "Wow, holy sour grapes, Batman!" I say get a grip.

I think it's important to increase the ranks of the adult skating world. I mean, just take a look at the number of skaters in the Class I events at AN. And I think there were a total of five or six Class I men in Kansas City (1 bronze man who had to skate with the bronze II's, 3 silvers, and 1 or 2 gold men who only skated in championship gold). IIRC, the only Class I men's event was silver I. A similar theme was seen with the ladies (no qualifying round for Bronze I ladies!). That does not bode well.

[sk8er1964]

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but I must say, "Wow, holy sour grapes, Batman!" I say get a grip.

I think it's important to increase the ranks of the adult skating world. I mean, just take a look at the number of skaters in the Class I events at AN. And I think there were a total of five or six Class I men in Kansas City (1 bronze man who had to skate with the bronze II's, 3 silvers, and 1 or 2 gold men who only skated in championship gold). IIRC, the only Class I men's event was silver I. A similar theme was seen with the ladies (no qualifying round for Bronze I ladies!). That does not bode well.

First, men are not a good example. There are very few men skating, whether they are at AN or at kiddie regionals. To get a lot of men into the ranks at AN, you need to open the events up to 5 year olds.

Second, I do not have sour grapes. (I have almost always been pleased with my results - when I am not, it is due to my own skating, not to the skating of others), and I do not need to get a grip. I met you and your partner at AN, NoVa, although it would not surprise me that you may not remember meeting me. You sometimes overwhelm with your passion for your skating and your opinion (can we say Skateguard?), but we do have a right to opposing opinions without being accused of having "sour grapes, batman".

I have what I consider to be serious concerns about allowing 21 year olds to compete. I did seem harsh to Daisies, and I apologized for it. I did not mean to slam her. Personally, I think my opinions are valid -- not because I think a 21 year old will keep me from a national championship (my lack of good doubles are what will keep me from a national championship). It's just that I don't think that this is a step that adult figure skating needs to take at this time.

There are a lot of reasons why starts are down -- the economy, the location (we had more starts at Lake Placid), whatever. Maybe 5 years ago was a peak -- heck, interest in standard track skating is waning right now. Maybe it's cyclical. However, making a radical systemic change in resonse to what may be a cyclical trend or a aberation seems premature to me.

[daisies]

Gee, thanks :roll: Did you poll all of the adults, or did you do this based on your gut feelings?Neither, considering No. 1 would be impossible and No. 2 would be stupid.

I'm a member of the Adult Skating Committee, and the group went out and talked to as many adults as possible about the issue. I spoke to many adults and the majority were in favor. Some were opposed, too. But here's what's interesting: A lot of skaters who were opposed were opposed based only on how it affected them and their chance of winning. When told of the pros of the proposal, such as the thought that it will bring more skaters into the fold who previously didn't have a lot of chances to compete (thus serving a demo that had not been served and increasing attendance -- two benefits), a lot of them reconsidered and saw the merits of lowering the age. It was refreshing that they saw the big picture and weren't solely focused on their chances of taking home a medal.

Someone who posted above said she was skating at the kid level that's equivalent of Silver, with a couple of doubles. The standard track test equivalent of Gold has at least three if not four doubles. How many doubles did the Championship Gold medalists have?I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The standard equivalent of Silver is Pre-Juvenile, but anyone who's tested FS on the standard track still would have to go back take Adult FS tests in order to compete in Bronze, Silver or Gold. So if that person has several doubles, they might just continue on the standard track and take their Intermediate, in which case they'd be Masters.

Oh, and the superior skating skills of the winners won't matter, because the kids will have them.That's not necessarily true. Not every 21-year-old has superior skating skills. In fact, a lot of times I see way better skating skills by some adults than I do kids, because all kids want to do is jump, jump, jump, to the detriment of the rest of their skating. But again, it could go either way. Some young'ns will be really good and some won't .... just like some "more mature" skaters will be really good and some won't.

I know older kid skaters at the Juvenile level who are good skaters -- they simply started too late (like 13) to be successful at the standard track. They, at 20, would kick the back sides of the 30+'s you are mentioning above.So would some new-to-the-scene 25-year-olds! I don't think you can generalize and say every 21-24-year-old is going to be some phenom.

There is a huge difference between a 21 year old and a 40 year old.As there is between a 25- and 40-year-old ... a 25- and 45-year-old ... and 25- and 50-year-old. All of which have been in place for years.

Edited to add:
Daisies, I am sorry if my response sounded mean. I didn't mean it as a slam on you, and it's nothing against you as a person (although reading back I can see how it could be taken that way -- I swear, it wasn't meant that way).No offense taken. :)

[sk8er1964]

Edited to add:
No offense taken. :)

Thanks, Daisies. And I will give serious thought to everything else you said.

Edited to add: My point on the standard testing thing was that a 20 year old Juvenile skater probably has doubles though a loop, if not a flip, and probably a double-double, or a double-single combo. The champ Gold medalists at this year's (and last years) AN did not have that jump arsenal.

[TimDavidSkate]

(1 bronze man who had to skate with the bronze II's,

Yep, that's me. The silver medalist was not thrilled at me during the medal ceremony. I was too overjoyed and was tying up my laces at that time and my friends heard. "I should not have let you skate!" :oops:
His partner came up to me before the competition, said that he is so upset that he is skating against me.

I mean the comittee did ask me if it was ok. I did not intend to skate with Bronze II. :oops:

[coskater64]

You know someone w/ a double double and doubles through loop and flip will skate masters not gold. And let's point out the obvious, we all age I've skated against people 15 years my jr and in five years I will skate against people 20 years my jr or 25. SO What...I want an event to go to..if this doesn't work we can change it.

We have the open events that are leveled, what is the big deal? If you argue about this just because you won't make champs...then I mean really...assuming all the little kids will sandbag and run out the 30 and 40 year olds is an unproven assumption.

I kind of thought this was about the sport.

[sk8er1964]

You know someone w/ a double double and doubles through loop and flip will skate masters not gold. And let's point out the obvious, we all age I've skated against people 15 years my jr and in five years I will skate against people 20 years my jr or 25. SO What...I want an event to go to..if this doesn't work we can change it.

We have the open events that are leveled, what is the big deal? If you argue about this just because you won't make champs...then I mean really...assuming all the little kids will sandbag and run out the 30 and 40 year olds is an unproven assumption.

I kind of thought this was about the sport.

I think you know me well enough by now to know that I am not arguing against this because I personally might not make champs. If I never make champs again, so be it. I will enjoy the journey. :D

I do think that my arguments are about the sport. About fairness. And yes, without the 21-24 year olds, we will still have an event for many, many years to come, IMO. The test levels and the competition levels are vastly different between standard and adults. In our level, we have to have an axel, and to be competitive we have to have either superior skating skills and presentation, or have two doubles (or both). The good kids at our standard track equavilent have to have several doubles (3-4), plus good skating skills.

I guess what I am trying to say is that 21 year olds at our level will be closer to standard track competitive standards, and higher than current adult track standards, and I don't see that as a good thing.

Maybe the cure is to limit the elements, or to make the adult tests closer to the reality of the standard track (competitive, not test) -- ie the Gold test is the equal to the standard pre-Juv, and masters is Juv and above.

I dunno -- I just find it frustrating. Right now I am competing against people of similar capabilities -- from first place to last place. I feel that if 21 year old standard track Juvenile skaters are allowed to compete with us, then we will be very outclassed.

As I said before, in another thread on this subject, maybe I am just being paranoid. However, I would hate to see adults staying home from competitions because they are hopelessly outclassed at their test level by the standard track "kids" whose competitive levels are, of necessity in the kid world, realistically far above for their test level.

Haven't you heard this already from the Bronze I's????

[Debbie S]

I guess everyone's looking at this through their own lens. I actually think that this will be more of a problem at the lower levels - Pre-Bronze and Bronze. As sk8pics pointed out, someone who starts skating at age 20 will progress faster (and usually farther) than someone who started skating when they were 30 or 40.

I can see 21-year-olds who have been skating for a year or two, and have all their singles, with a greater comfort level on the ice than skaters with the same experience that started when they were older, entering Pre-Bronze or Bronze comps and winning handily. That could potentially discourage those older skaters from competing, which would take them out of the running for AN in the future. Notice I said "potentially" - I'm not trying to predict the downfall of AN or adult skating, and like daisies said, the same situation could occur with 25-year-olds. But a 21-year-old skater would be more likely to outshine the competition, simply because of age.

Remember, a skater who has passed a particular standard track FS test will usually be at a higher level than adult skaters who passed the "equivalent" adult FS test, b/c the competitive standard is higher in the standard track for each level. If a teenage or college-age skater's hardest jump is an axel, or a 2 toe or 2 sal, they may not test higher than Pre-Prelim or Prelim FS, but that doesn't mean they're at the same skill level as a Pre-Bronze or Bronze skater. And most young adults in that situation would probably have stopped testing and competing during college, so their skill level may have increased w/o their taking tests to officially advance in skating level. And at age 21, they may not have the money to start taking a lot of adult or standard FS tests, so there could be a lot of highly skilled skaters hanging out in Pre-Bronze or Bronze for a few years.

Edited to add that given the small number of Class I skaters at the adult comps I attended this year (HC, New Year's), I bet that classes I and II are going to be combined in a lot of comps. That means that 35 year-olds who started skating at 30 will be competing against 21-year-olds in either situation that I described above. As I said when I started this thread, including younger skaters is a good idea, but I'm not sure the age class divisions were thoroughly thought out.

[NoVa Sk8r]

Hmmm, the last time I checked, there were 2 marks: technical and PRESENTATION. The "kiddies" are probably not gonna outclass the older skaters in this area.

[Mel On Ice]

I think we also need to take a "wait and see" attitude towards the "kiddie track" skaters who may or may not make the leap into the adult ranks when given the opportunity.

There may not be many willing to make the leap, as some kids are more than ready to give up skating after they graduate from high school, some after college.

So many are willing to give it up the minute they can to start coaching and in the case of some coaches near and dear to my heart, "never wear lycra again."

I just would hate to see the good karma of a GREAT AN disappear with sniping about this issue, one that has already passed GC. We already hear snarky comments by skaters who judge others based on whether or not they were kid skaters. Let's not divide our group by getting into an "age-ism" thing too!

I'm just as competitive as the rest of you. However, if I'm going to win a competition, I want it to be against the best there is, not because I hid behind some rules that excluded the best. I've done ISI, so I know the dull victory that is "competing against the book". Would I like a medal? Hell, I'd like not to finish last... BUT not if that means compromising the entries to give me the best shot at the gold. That's boring and not a challenge.

I think I remember someone's quote on this issue better on another board: if the age restriction is lowered to 21, they can still go to the bar with us.

Cheers!

[Figureskates]

First, men are not a good example. There are very few men skating, whether they are at AN or at kiddie regionals. To get a lot of men into the ranks at AN, you need to open the events up to 5 year olds.



And that folks is a far more serious problem than changing the age group classifications. Consider my case. I am the ONLY adult male at my rink who is a freestyler and regularly takes lessons. In every session, I am the only male there (I am not complaining about that ladies, you guys are the greatest is helping me out!!). During the summer session at another rink, I am the only male there as well in all the sessions I am in (that's three). I have gotten other ladies interested in the sport (one is starting group lessons this summer). I have interested three ladies in coming to Lake Placid Adult Week in August. I cannot get any other men interested in the sport.

So fellow adult figure skaters, what do we do??

[sk8pics]

Hmmm, the last time I checked, there were 2 marks: technical and PRESENTATION. The "kiddies" are probably not gonna outclass the older skaters in this area.

I have to respectfully disagree with you here. I'm not saying that all former kid skaters (maybe we have to come up with a better name for this group!) will surpass the presentation skills of older adult-onset skaters, but I think it is much easier to focus on presentation when you are comfortable with the technical elements you are trying. And anyway soon there will be no second mark.

It's been interesting to read everyone's viewpoints and I'm glad that people are bothering to contribute. I did have a couple of questions that perhaps someone will have some ideas on. First, I hear people talking about the imminent demise of AN due to lower numbers of starts, but yet there are too many entrants to allow pre-bronze skaters to participate. This seems contradictory, or am I missing something? I understand the viewpoint that AN should be for higher level skaters and pre-bronze skaters are too "beginnerish" but it seems like there could be some provision for them, perhaps even just allowing participation in interpretive events. And that might help increase the numbers.

Secondly, I know right now some competitions restrict entries based on standard track test level passed too, as well as adult freeskate level. So for example, a pre-juvenile skater has to have passed (let's say) adult silver and is not allowed to skate at lower levels. (I forget if that is quite the right division, but I hope you see my point.) So, if there is an influx of 21-24 year old skaters who have done some substantial amount of standard track testing they won't be allowed to compete at the lower Adult levels, if this rule is intact. Some competitions, however, do make exceptions. Anyway, does anyone know if this is still in effect? Or maybe it is entirely a local competition thing? Anyway, I wanted to also say that I like this rule because it helps to keep the playing field equitable.

Pat

[crayonskater]

Goodness. Here I thought Adult Nationals was all about having an enjoyable competitive outlet; if that is the case, then it seems pretty reasonable to increase the number of competitors rather than let Adult Nationals die.

The 'omg! the 21-year-olds will outskate the adults' cry seems a little inappropriate, especially given the tone of the comments. Because their mommies are paying for their lessons? Is that really a legitimate complaint? (Should we exclude the childless? Some people can afford more lessons than I can, too.)

In any case, I'm not quite sure how the levels at Adult Nationals work, but let's just take my college-affiliated club as an example. Most of the skaters are between 20-22; I'm 25, so's another woman, and a 30-year-old skates regularly.

The other 25 year old and I are both bonafide adult skaters. She's been skating 5 years and is largely self taught; decent forward spins, beginning sit spin, all singles except axel, and a cool shoot the duck. I've been skating a couple months and have a demented waltz jump.

One of the 20 year olds has been skating 3 years intermittently; she has a scratchy forward crossover. The rest of the 20-22 year olds all skated competitively as children; they all passed through Junior moves at least -- I think that puts them at the Masters level, but they competed normally at Novice.

Two of them have double toe loops and loops; two of them still have a double flip, and one of the girls still retains her double lutz and attempts double axels. Their artistic elements differ -- the girl with the double Axels has an Ina Bauer to die for, but not as good a spiral as the girl whose best jump is a double loop.

Only one of them is currently old enough to compete in Adults, but here's the thing. If you are an Adult who started at 21, you are not going to be competing against these girls. If you are a much older Adult of similar skill level, you are of a SIMILAR SKILL LEVEL. They are no longer competitive. They skate about 4 hours a week around their college activities and programs. If they were still interested in competing seriously, they would have an outlet in the standard track. A girl who is 21 and has triples is not going to waste her time at Adult Nationals. So you're getting formerly competitive child skaters who now do this for fun and don't train hard core and... aren't perfect or unbeatable.

A lot of the younger skaters, too, just aren't interested in competing anymore, especially not at Adult Nationals. I speculate that the eager 23-year-old competitors are probably people who just started when they were 21 or 22. And while a 21 year-old skater may have a faster learning curve, that's really not an objection as it's too dependent on the person.

The only one of this age group that would affect a Bronze skater theoretically is the girl with no forward crossovers.

Combining classes does increase the age gap, but increasing the number of eligible competitors I think would decrease the likelihood of classes needing to be combined.

See how it goes. I'm certain if it turns into 21-year olds winning every competition, a rule change will be proposed and confirmed again.

[blue111moon]

I don't mind dropping the age level (but then I'm not nor have I ever been a Class I and I was only in II for a year or so). My concern is whether these new Adults will bother to test up to their ability or look at the levels and think - "Hey, all I need for Silver is an axel - wow, I can beat the pants off of everyone there!" (which I have overheard from quite a few young adults, who apprently labor under the dellusion that because I'm old, I'm also deaf :lol: )
I would hope that skaters with axels and some doubles would test up to Gold, if only to challenge themselves, rather than stay at lower levels for the dubious satisfaction of collecting medals, but I will not be surprised when they don't.

As for local competitions, I know my club already makes every effort to split the Adult events by age whenever numbers allow. If dropping the age brings more entries in, that's a good thing for the club, since it will mean a greater possibility of splitting levels.

[skaternum]

This has been an interesting discussion so far. I was supposed to attend as a delegate, but decided not to go, so I sent my proxy with another delegate. I instructed that delegate to vote in favor of this particular proposal. I weighed out the cons against the pros, and decided this would be in the best intereste of adult skating in the long run. Making 21-24 year olds compete against 12 year olds is brutal.

However, I too share some of the concerns expressed here. But my issue isn't so much AGE, it's standard track TEST LEVEL. Before I elaborate, let me state a couple of assumptions that affect my argument. In general:

* The younger you start, the faster you progress.
* The younger you start, the more comfortable you are on the ice.

*Therefore, age matters. (If it didn't, we wouldn't have bothered to acknowledge it by making an Adult track, and putting in age classes in the first place.)
* And, experience on the ice matters.

(Yes, there are always exceptions to rules, but these generalizations have held up pretty well in my experience.)

My concern is that skaters who've passed standard freestyle tests and competed at those levels before their early 20s will have an unfair advantage over the adult-onset skaters who started skating in their early 20s or later -- because of the test requirements vs. competition skill difference. If you've passed your Juvenile Freeskating test and competed at that level at the age of 20, you most likely exhibited a pretty impressive array of skating skills, including a variety of spins, flying spins, double jump combos, and tricky footwork. Think about what you see at the Juvenile level at your local comp or regionals. So all you have to do now is turn 21, take a few adult freeskating tests (piece of cake), and compete at the Silver level. You can pack your program with everything but the double jumps. Sounds like a slaughter, huh?

While I would hope that such a skater would have the courage to test up to Gold or even Intermediate so they can skate Masters, there's nothing making them do that. And if all you've ever known of competing is the prevalent standard track sentiment of "hold 'em back so they win," you're more likely to do so. I too have heard some of the teenaged skaters talk about competing in the adult events so they can "clean up."

To me, the problem isn't really age. The problem is allowing pre-juv and juv competitors to compete against adult onset skaters. Age just exacerbates it. I do assume that the adult onset skater is at a disadvantage. And since the original intent of the adult test/competition structure was to allow people who started skating as adults to compete more fairly against their peers, I think this undermines that intent.

Having standard trackers test & compete in the adult ranks was unusual when all this started. It's becoming more & more common. Which is great, but I think it's time to start thinking about splitting this up a little better.

As an aside, I have no idea where this "AN is dying out" thing is coming from. It seemed pretty healthy to me. If you want to speculate as to why all the Bronze I's disappeared, read the umpteen other threads. Good guesses so far: money issues, bottlenecking because of the mandatory moves (as predicted by yours truly), fear of "sandbaggers," KC not being a party town (heck, any city can be a party town if the right people are there), returning standard trackers testing into silver and above, etc.

[crayonskater]

Good discussion.

I'm not sure sandbagging will be as much of an issue. Sandbagging happens on the lower levels to ensure a child does well in their age group and has success before moving up (no reason a ten year old should compete at Nationals). But there's a pretty big publicity/financial/Olympic incentive to sandbag at that level; not as much of a reason to sandbag so you can what, win Adult Silver Class I? The teenagers may think that way now; they're kind of conditioned to. But the young 20s skaters I know think Adult Nationals is a bit of a joke -- certainly not a prestige thing worth sandbagging over.

From the USFSA's perspective, it probably makes more sense to encourage returning skaters than adult-onset ones, if only because there's a lot more potential returners.

I have to ask -- are the 25-year-olds regularly walloping the 35 year olds now? I haven't heard that being discussed as a problem, and it should be if the age gap is that big of a concern; 25 year olds could be returning Juvenile skaters now.

That said, I find it a little strange that a Juvenile skater isn't grandfathered into the Silver level at least. I guess they don't want to discourage people from skating who maybe skated a couple years as a kid but have been off the ice for 20 years might not have the skill set to be wholly competitive at a Silver level. But I think I would find it annoying to be able to do doubles but to have to take a Pre-Bronze test (and pay for it, and find the test session to do it) in order to compete, and I think that could be as much a barrier to entry as anything else.

As for why no Bronze Is? I imagine within a year or so I'll probably be at that level or close to it; but I'm not inclined to spend hundreds of dollars to go and do a couple of single jumps. I like the idea of performing and even doing a local competition, but Nationals is just too much of an expense considering how basic my skill level would be.

[CanAmSk8ter]

OMG! I can compete at AN's this year if I want to! (I don't know if I will, b/c I'm still focusing mainly on dance, but it is very tempting to think of competing in freestyle and [possibly] not getting my a$@ kicked). Of course, I passed Pre-Juv years ago, so I'd have to compete Silver, and I think my axel attempts at this point are probably laughable... but anyway...

So do these new limits apply to dance and pairs as well, or just singles?

[jenlyon60]

I don't think there's ever been enough adult dance teams at ANs in any single "level" category (Bronze/Silver/Pre-Gold etc) to merit separating by age groups.

Don't know about pairs, but would venture the same guess.

[CanAmSk8ter]

Oh yeah. I forgot about that. :oops:

[momskates]

I have been following the postings on this subject, and I just registered to join the forum so I could add to it...

I went to the USFSA website and read the changes, and one of the PROPOSALS was that in a given year, skaters have to choose to compete in EITHER the standard track (including collegiate) OR the adult track, not both. Given that choice, I think most 21 year old skaters (who are looked as as a "threat" to adults) would choose the standard track. That means the 21 year olds who started skating as adults would compete in the adult track, which is what this rule is all about.

Believe me, I feel threatened by letting 21 year olds compete; I am 36 and compete masters junior. I have competed in champ masters before, but this year I felt like I didn't have a chance with the young'ns, so I didn't enter. But, that is why I am thankful for the open events with the age groups.

As for local comps, we all know that there are so few adult skaters that age and groups will have to be combined it we are to be allowed to compete.

[vesperholly]

Thanks, Daisies. And I will give serious thought to everything else you said.

Edited to add: My point on the standard testing thing was that a 20 year old Juvenile skater probably has doubles though a loop, if not a flip, and probably a double-double, or a double-single combo. The champ Gold medalists at this year's (and last years) AN did not have that jump arsenal.
And a 20-year-old is also likely to be in college, which will wreak havoc on many attempts to train with regularity.

My experience with "old" Juvenile skaters is that they will test as far as their abilities will take them. If a 20-year-old has a double loop, they've probably at least taken Intermediate, if not passed it. If they can't pass the test with the doubles they have, they won't be very competitive anyways.

I don't know any early 20's skater who is "saving" themselves for competition like the kids do. Let's face it, making it to standard Sectionals or Junior Nationals is much more prestigious than competing in the open events at ANs. I seriously doubt that there are, or will be, 20-year-old Juvenile skaters planning their "skating career" around ANs like kids do Regionals.

[phillyskater]

But there's a pretty big publicity/financial/Olympic incentive to sandbag at that level; not as much of a reason to sandbag so you can what, win Adult Silver Class I?

As for why no Bronze Is? I'm not inclined to spend hundreds of dollars to go and do a couple of single jumps... Nationals is just too much of an expense considering how basic my skill level would be.

I must respectfully disagree with both of these points. Once you've been around more Adult competitions, especially AN and the other "biggies", you will no doubt notice that sandbagging can be a big problem at times, even in the Adult ranks (see other extensive posts on this subject). And yes, winning first place at any level means enough to some people to engage in this type of behavior. Secondly, some people may take offense to National level Bronze skating skills being described as "basic" -- again, if you had seen the level of Bronze I skating at AN in the past couple of years, you may have a very different opinion.

That being said, I did attend GC this weekend and did vote against the proposal to decrease the age requirement. While I feel that it is important to give these later-onset skaters (21-24) a place to compete outside of the standard track, there is already an age category recognized by USFSA for this group called "Young Adult" (18-24). If USFSA feels it is important to reach out to this group (which I agree with), then they should devote more resources to promoting this already existing category, and consider adding Young Adult events to AN as a separate category, rather than simply grouping them into the existing Adult structure, which will result in many of the problems already addressed in this thread. (The biggest concern for me as a local competition chair is when there aren't enough entrants support separate age categories at a level, so that a 45-year old mother of 3 with a full-time job and household to run is forced to compete against a 21-year old college student who is in a very different place in life, has MUCH more time to train, etc.) We had this problem at the Halloween Classic when we added a Young Adult skater into a Masters event (b/c she was the only entrant in the YA category) and we received a few very hostile complaints from the older skaters.

I also made the motion at GC to send the new age divisions back to the Adult Skating Committee for further study. My rationale was that it does not seem logical to divide an already shrinking category (as seen by the dramtic drop in Bronze I entries at AN and Sectionals over the past couple of years) into two even smaller groups. Maybe the Adult Committee has market research to suggest that there will be such a surge in entries from the 21-24 age group that it will make up for the current decline, but without such information available to the delegates, the proposal before us did not make sense. Unfortunately, the majority disagreed.

Just my two cents.

philly

[vesperholly]

If you've passed your Juvenile Freeskating test and competed at that level at the age of 20, you most likely exhibited a pretty impressive array of skating skills, including a variety of spins, flying spins, double jump combos, and tricky footwork. Think about what you see at the Juvenile level at your local comp or regionals. So all you have to do now is turn 21, take a few adult freeskating tests (piece of cake), and compete at the Silver level. You can pack your program with everything but the double jumps. Sounds like a slaughter, huh?
See, I guess what I've seen at local competitions is totally different. An older skater competing in Juvenile usually has an axel, and a shaky double - maybe. Trust me, if they got any kind of consistent double before they were 18, they tested up to Intermediate to do Regionals! I bet for the majority of Juvenile event at club competitions, the oldest skaters are 15-16 - which is still way old for Juvenile.

The time between 18 and 21 is a big question mark for most people. The vast majority head off to college, where it's really difficult to maintain a skating training schedule, passing your classes and having a social life even for the most dedicated (I know, I tried - and my rink was across the street from my dorm!). I skated on my breaks from school, and I was the only one at my age and near my level that continued. The other kids who continued through college were Novice level, trying to get their Senior tests. The amount of 19 and 20 year olds with doubles waiting to test so they can beat some adults once a year is probably slim to none!

[TreSk8sAZ]

Good discussion.
That said, I find it a little strange that a Juvenile skater isn't grandfathered into the Silver level at least... But I think I would find it annoying to be able to do doubles but to have to take a Pre-Bronze test (and pay for it, and find the test session to do it) in order to compete, and I think that could be as much a barrier to entry as anything else.


I completely agree. I'm at Pre-Juvenile right now (actually just tested up) and have been planning on taking my Juvenile tests soon. Now I have to decide whether or not to go back and take all of the Adult tests OR test up to Intermediate or Novice as fast as I can so I can compete Masters. Spending all that money to retest things I've already passed or have not even started working on to be a gold skater is something I'm not sure I can afford (college is expensive!). Especially when I train every day.

I have to agree with everyone who has said the learning curve goes up the younger you start. I started when I was 19, and in two years already have doubles. I skated a little as a kid, but never got many jumps so it didn't really impact my skating now. I know of another girl who started when she was 18, had never been on the ice before, and she's getting ready to test pre-pre and has the most gorgeous camel spin after only a couple of years as well.

But at the same time, there are some adults at my rink who have only been skating for a year or so and have their single flips and are beginning their lutz and axel. Learning curves depend entirely on the person.

I do think that while there will be some people who skate down just to win, that happens a bit anyway. It won't be solely kids who do. And many kids, no matter how good they are, will be in for a surprise going up against many of the adults who have some exceptional positions and moves.

[skaternum]

I went to the USFSA website and read the changes, and one of the PROPOSALS was that in a given year, skaters have to choose to compete in EITHER the standard track (including collegiate) OR the adult track, not both. This isn't entirely accurate. This applies only to QUALIFYING EVENTS.

[skaternum]

While I feel that it is important to give these later-onset skaters (21-24) a place to compete outside of the standard track, there is already an age category recognized by USFSA for this group called "Young Adult" (18-24).As far as I know, this isn't true. The rulebook makes no mention of a Young Adult test or competition category. Many local comps have put one in (with varying age definitions, by the way), but USFSA per se doesn't have such a category as far as I know.

[coskater64]

Ya know I skate from 14-18 as a teen. I was good at my 2nd figures and usually got to skate in the freeskate portion. The thing is, I had a great axel but nothing else. I failed my Int FS and 3rd test @the end of my Sr year.

My parents recently showed me the tapes of me skating at 16,17, and 18. Seriously, I sucked, so scratchy, horrible footwork, spins that travelled for yards.

As an adult, much better, other than 10" of height and 30 lbs, same frame. I started back up @36 but here is the thing. I skate 2-3 hours a day evertday, plus I dance now. It seems comfort on the ice is key. I see a lot of teenagers at open pj and open juv, not really a threat. If they have the jumps they generally move up. I would have -- could I have passed the test at 18.

Those kids at Jr and Sr. they aren't gonna do it, they still want a shot at regionals, that dq's them.

[crayonskater]

I must respectfully disagree with both of these points. Once you've been around more Adult competitions, especially AN and the other "biggies", you will no doubt notice that sandbagging can be a big problem at times, even in the Adult ranks (see other extensive posts on this subject). And yes, winning first place at any level means enough to some people to engage in this type of behavior. Secondly, some people may take offense to National level Bronze skating skills being described as "basic" -- again, if you had seen the level of Bronze I skating at AN in the past couple of years, you may have a very different opinion.

philly

Just to clear things up, I was referring to my own skating when I said 'basic'. I'm nearly 26 now -- suppose it takes me two years to pass Bronze moves, if I pick things up quickly, etc, etc. That puts me at 28, meaning I can compete at AN the next year. Depending on how shaky my skills are, I can see myself very easily in a position where I'm not interested in showing off a couple of shaky jumps yet, preferring to wait a year and practice putting together a program, enter a couple local things, etc. I'm sure there are tons of accomplished Bronze I skaters but I don't see myself as one of them within the time frame for still being a Class I.

That's with a relatively fast time-frame, assuming no marriage, children, or anything else people do in their late 20s with consistent access to ice.

It just doesn't surprise me that registration is lower, especially given the expense involved. Add in airfare, hotel, registration, and it's adding up to several months worth of lessons.

[phillyskater]

As far as I know, this isn't true. The rulebook makes no mention of a Young Adult test or competition category. Many local comps have put one in (with varying age definitions, by the way), but USFSA per se doesn't have such a category as far as I know.

It may not be in the rulebook yet or recognized by a separate test category, but it was announced (or at least promoted) by the Adult Skating Committee last year (granted, not in qualifying competitions, but again that could have been changed without affecting the current Adult structure).

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Shell.asp?sid=19282

[kitkat]

Believe me I understand all of the concerns being expressed here as I have had to compete often with former kid skaters or skaters who started in their teens but for whatever reason are still eligible for Bronze when they turn 25.

However, I think the new rules actually help someone like me as I overnight became a two, when I thought I still had several years ahead of me in I. So now I am a young II instead of a middle of the age bracket I. While in past years many of the really good Bronze I skaters would have probably been in what is now II anyway, some would have been in I. And we all know that many of the complaints about sandbagging have been directed at Bronze I. So now many of those skaters will now be a two and no longer having to compete against really, really good skaters who just turned 25 but have been skating for years and should probably be Silver or Gold. Forgive me if this is hard to read, I have a headeache! But anyway, I guess what I am trying to say is that for me and other former I's who are now II's because of the new rules this can only be a good thing. I am pretty sure that there will be enough entrants at Adult Nationals that age groups would not be combined. And I would also think this would also be the case at larger competitions like Peach Classic.

It also makes moving up to Silver seem less scary as the youngest competitor would now be 29. This is obviously much better for a 34 or 35 year old who wants to move up to Silver.

[sue123]

The 'omg! the 21-year-olds will outskate the adults' cry seems a little inappropriate, especially given the tone of the comments. Because their mommies are paying for their lessons? Is that really a legitimate complaint? (Should we exclude the childless? Some people can afford more lessons than I can, too.)



I know you were being sarcastic (or I hope you were anyway), but my mom has not given me a dime for skating. If it's not food, basically she just doesn't give me any money. Occasionally, she'll pay for my gas, if she's in the car when I go to fill up. Basically, the way it falls is that I work a just over minimum pay job, I think I make around $60 a week, not a whole lot. $50 per week goes to skating. So I would think working adults out of school would have an edge in terms of ice time, simply because they can afford it. Whereas I can only afford one lesson a week, there are plenty of adult skaters who take more. Also, it's hard to stick to a skating schedule when you have papers to write, finals to study for, nights when you're up until 3 am (like I'll probably be doing tonight) and you just can't get up at 6 am to go to the rink. I'm not saying adults are any less busy by any means, just maybe there schedules might be a bit more predictable, and financially, its easier for them to skate.

I think the best path to take would be to just wait and see what happens. No one can predict the future. Maybe it'll be a good thing, maybe it'll be a bad thing. Nobody knows for sure. Just gotta wait until the first comp where a 21 year old enters and see what happens.

But, from what I've seen, there aren't too many young 20's skating. At all of the rinks I've skated at, I've been the only one my age who isn't testing or good enough to compete at the standard track. So maybe there's not as many young 20's out there who want to compete at the adult track, and then all htis worry would have been for nothing.

[daisies]

This isn't entirely accurate. This applies only to QUALIFYING EVENTS.This is where there is some confusion. The term "qualifying events" in this sense means the competition itself. AN and AS are "qualifying events," since portions of the competition have a qualifying component. It does not mean the events contained within the competition, such as "Championship Masters Ladies" or "Adult Gold Men."

[momskates]

This is where there is some confusion. The term "qualifying events" in this sense means the competition itself. AN and AS are "qualifying events," since portions of the competition have a qualifying component. It does not mean the events contained within the competition, such as "Championship Masters Ladies" or "Adult Gold Men."

I think you are correct because I went back to USFSA website and read the proposal, and it says "may not enter adult level at qualifying competition (AS/AN) and a standard level at a qualifying competition...in the same season....For example, a skater may not enter Mens novice FS in standard track and masters freeskating in adult track...

Regarding the concern of some adults that these young skaters will sandbag, personally, as a masters level skater, I'd rather have the "standard track" or "collegiate track" national title than the adult national title (but I'm way too old for that now!!!), so I truly think these skaters will choose the standard track competitions. Maybe when they feel they are too old to compete in standard track, they will move over to the adult track, but then the age thing won't matter.

Does anyone know if this proposal passed...the one regarding entering standard or adult comps in the same season?

[manleywoman]

Regarding the concern of some adults that these young skaters will sandbag, personally, as a masters level skater, I'd rather have the "standard track" or "collegiate track" national title than the adult national title (but I'm way too old for that now!!!), so I truly think these skaters will choose the standard track competitions. Maybe when they feel they are too old to compete in standard track, they will move over to the adult track, but then the age thing won't matter.

I agree with this. I've had both a 23 year old male and a 27 year old male (I was scouting potential pairs partners) recently tell me that Adult Nationals is, and I quote, "beneath" them. Grrrr....

So I'm surprised any of these "kids," as some of you have mentioned, are chomping at the bit to join ANs and clean up the medals.

[daisies]

Does anyone know if this proposal passed...the one regarding entering standard or adult comps in the same season?Yes, it did. :)

[singerskates]

Easy, just test up to your skating skills and then no adults will complain about your competing with them because you'll be at the same skill level as the other adults at your level. Right now competing against older adults at the silver level isn't fair to you either because you're not giving yourself true competition. You need to challenge yourself. Otherwise, the medals are cheap and don't mean so much to you.

Brigitte

This is a reply from the other side. I'm turning 21 in 4 days and I'm quite upset that this passed. In local competitions, none of the adults want us to skate with them because they are so sure that we'll beat them. They can be quite viscious. The first adult competition I skated in one lady had me near tears because of things that she said. I'm sure this isn't the case all over.

I also recently did a project on adult skating for a journalism class I was taking. Every single adult said they did not support this decision because it wasn't fair.

It's also hard because I've been skating standard track. I've been doing doubles and an axel in my programs. I've only tested high enough to be the equivalent of Silver, which means I have to completely change my programs unless I continue skating standard track, if they allow me to.

While sometimes it is hard to compete against the kids, it's also hard to compete against adults who do not want you there. It takes a lot of the fun out of it.

So please, if you get paired with a younger adult skater, be nice. It's not our fault this was passed, and many of us don't like it either.

[skaternum]

This is where there is some confusion. The term "qualifying events" in this sense means the competition itself. AN and AS are "qualifying events," since portions of the competition have a qualifying component. It does not mean the events contained within the competition, such as "Championship Masters Ladies" or "Adult Gold Men."
Correct. So I could compete in Peach Classic and Southeastern Regionals if I wanted to, based on this rule.

[daisies]

So I could compete in Peach Classic and Southeastern Regionals if I wanted to, based on this rule.Yes. Why you or anyone would want to is another matter entirely. ;)

[Debbie S]

So I would think working adults out of school would have an edge in terms of ice time, simply because they can afford it. Whereas I can only afford one lesson a week, there are plenty of adult skaters who take more. Also, it's hard to stick to a skating schedule when you have papers to write, finals to study for, nights when you're up until 3 am (like I'll probably be doing tonight) and you just can't get up at 6 am to go to the rink. I'm not saying adults are any less busy by any means, just maybe there schedules might be a bit more predictable, and financially, its easier for them to skate.
Unless you're a full-time grad student like me and then you deal with the same issues. Costs for lessons, ice time, skates, dresses, comp entry fees, etc. have weighed pretty heavily on me for the past 2 years. Ironically, I have had more time to skate over the past 2 years, b/c of free time during parts of various days, but the cost, plus schoolwork and job search stresses of course, has gotten in the way.


I have to ask -- are the 25-year-olds regularly walloping the 35 year olds now?
Well, I'm 33 and have gotten my butt kicked by younger skaters in Class I comps, some who looked like they skated as children (but what do I know?). In a recent Pre-Bronze I comp, one of my competitors did a layback spin and an inside to outside spread eagle - with very fast, smooth skating. Another competitor said she had only been skating for a year, and went out and did a really good loop jump, among other things. I felt really old - lol. Then again, I have been beaten by older skaters, too, and skaters at the high end in the other age classes could easily have the same experience.

[Skatewind]

I was at GC and both spoke and voted in favor of lowering the adult age to 21. As I said from the floor, with the current minimum age of 25, all of the placers in Championship Gold Ladies this year were mid-30s and above, the Championship Masters Ladies and Men winners were both mid-30s, and the Championship Gold Men winner was mid-40s. Not a 20-something in the bunch, proving younger doesn't always mean better.
That was a good point of the discussion. I'm glad you made it. It certainly left a good impression of adult skaters compared to the sarcastic motion that was made to lower the age to 18.