USFSA Governing Council action items

[Debbie S]

The USFSA just posted the lists of proposed rule changes to be discussed and voted on at GC. I only looked at the technical items list, but I noticed several items of interest to adult skaters. First, it looks like they are changing the figure test qualification/elimination for Bronze through Gold FS.

They are also instituting well-balanced program requirements for Pre-Bronze. Specifically, the number of jumps is unlimited (only 3 combos) but lutzes are disallowed along with axels and doubles. Music limit is 1:40 and at least 2 spins (no more than 3) are required, along with "connecting steps". The rationale stated is that there is a need to standardize requirements b/c currently there is wide variation in the rules competition organizers use for this level. I agree and think this will be positive. Now, if only more club competitions would actually offer Pre-Bronze!

Also, there is some info about the implementation of CoP. Next year, it will be used in novice, junior, and senior qual comps, but the long-term plan is to use it for all qual events at juvenile level and higher (not sure how they're going to do this b/c the system to ISU set up is designed for elite-level jr and sr comps) and selected events at AN. I guess that means Masters events, maybe Champ Gold?

This is the doc I'm referring to:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/events/200405/governingcouncil/ROA-technical.pdf

(links to others are on the USFSA home page in the shaded blue box on the right side)

[Terri C]

They are also instituting well-balanced program requirements for Pre-Bronze. Specifically, the number of jumps is unlimited (only 3 combos) but lutzes are disallowed along with axels and doubles. Music limit is 1:40 and at least 2 spins (no more than 3) are required, along with "connecting steps". The rationale stated is that there is a need to standardize requirements b/c currently there is wide variation in the rules competition organizers use for this level. I agree and think this will be positive. Now, if only more club competitions would actually offer Pre-Bronze!

Debbie,
At least we were ahead of everyone else this season on the well balanced program concept. I also feel that they need to go one further and not allow camel spins in Pre- Bronze (sorry!).

[jazzpants]

ACK!!! They're proposing that I age another age class this year. I'm gonna go from Class II to Class III in one fell swoop!!! 8O

318. Competitions Committee
Rule 3292 Qualifying rounds – Adult (page 85) amend to define the age groupings as follows: (Committee vote: 58 yes, 4 no)

Class I 21 years through 28 years

Class II 29 years through 35 years

Class III 36 years through 45 years

Class IV 46 years through 55 years

Class V 56 years and over



Rationale: The revised age classes will allow for the younger skaters to compete together and will continue to accommodate adult skater’s skill depreciation due to age.

Financial Impact: None
Then again, it would be nice to finally have vesperholly (and other young'ums) go and compete in the Adult Track!!! :P

[Figureskates]

That would make me class V...sounds like a drug category.

Does part of my program include skating with a walker and eating strain beets through a straw. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[NoVa Sk8r]

Rule 3292, Qualifying rounds – Amend to define the age groupings as follows:
Class I 21 years through 28 years
Class II 29 years through 35 years
Class III 36 years through 45 years
Class IV 46 years through 55 years
Class V 56 years and over
Rationale: The revised age classes will allow for the younger skaters to compete together and will continue to accommodate adult skater’s skill depreciation due to age.
----------------------------

Hmmm, weren't we having problems getting people into Class I, especially evident at this year's AN? Class II (which in this amendment used to be Class I) is only spanning *6* years. Wonder how that might affect turnout. :?? (I also cringe at the thought of another Skateguard campaign and "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" argument!)

[SkateGuard]

Rule 3292, Qualifying rounds – Amend to define the age groupings as follows:

Class I 21 years through 28 years
Class II 29 years through 35 years

Rationale: The revised age classes will allow for the younger skaters to compete together and will continue to accommodate adult skater’s skill depreciation due to age.
----------------------------

Hmmm, weren't we having problems getting people into Class I, especially evident at this year's AN? Class II (which in this amendment used to be Class I) is only spanning *6* years. Wonder how that might affect turnout. :?? (I also cringe at the thought of another Skateguard campaign and "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" argument!)

:lol: Great, I'm aging up five years early.....I'm really going to need my birth certificate, because people think I'm still in high school! Good bye, dream of competing Gold I at AN's.....

No campaign yet...but I think splitting Class I is a very, very bad idea. Not a big deal for me, 'cause I'll just dance (no age groups :lol: ). But I have a feeling that this will have a lot of opposition without one of my "pointless" campaigns....all I want is skating to win.... :roll:

Thanks for the vote of confidence, though...nice to know what you think of me. And btw, the answer is 72 angels...I'm Catholic! :twisted:

I've never seen any strength in the YA group...it's mostly a couple skaters here and there. Actually, I've been one of the youngest I's every year in bronze at AN's....most of them are over 30. (And I didn't start until 28...even the eligible bronze skaters in this proposed Class I don't go much now.) The YA's, with the current state of the economy, often cannot afford ($$ or vacation) to go to ANs. (I sure couldn't until last year...when I would have been in the proposed Class II.) Heck, 50% of the current I's can't afford to go. So we'll end up with binky Class I's, half of whom will be sent home anyway (see my last "pointless" campaign) and small Class II events.

IMO, they need to expand the collegiate to accomodate all YA's and develop the numbers there before moving them over to Adult skating. Or don't split the I age class...the numbers just don't justify it at this point. If the numbers come back, then they can split it up.

Another thought...what is the level of skating for the average 18-22 y.o. prelim? pre-juv? juv? I'm just wondering if the competitive YA in prelim might be way ahead of bronze (axel, flying spins, doubles??) This may start to squeeze out the adult start skaters.....I don't want to be exclusive :halo: , but I think the rule is out there before fully thinking it through....

IMO...."I have a bad feeling about this...."

[jazzpants]

Hmmm, weren't we having problems getting people into Class I, especially evident at this year's AN? Class II (which in this amendment used to be Class I) is only spanning *6* years. Wonder how that might affect turnout. :?? (I also cringe at the thought of another Skateguard campaign and "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" argument!)How about dividing it so that Class II is 29 to 37 and Class III is 38 to 45? Makes it even between Class II and III at least. (Though it still doesn't help me since I'll STILL be in Class III at AN 2006...) :roll: :P

[NoVa Sk8r]

No campaign yet...but I think splitting Class I is a very, very bad idea. Not a big deal for me, 'cause I'll just dance (no age groups :lol: ). But I have a feeling that this will have a lot of opposition without one of my "pointless" campaigns....all I want is skating to win.... :roll:

Thanks for the vote of confidence, though...nice to know what you think of me. And btw, the answer is 72 angels...I'm Catholic! :twisted: I don't think your campaign (um, cam-PAIN?) was pointless, but when you started to villify the lone dissenter, I just thought you were out of line. And then getting castigated on the USFS board; well, kudos to Laura for calling you on it.
No, I don't know who you are, but your actions have spoken louder than anything else. To be sure, I'm not against you, just how far your campaign went, 'K?
In fact, I wish you much luck at adult nationals ... (oh, the answer is 100, btw ;))

[sk8pics]

Changing the age categories seems like a bad idea to me, too. Hasn't there already been discussion about how many skaters need to be accommodated at nationals? Now they want to expand the age limits further? So there's more people? And from what I have read anyway, it seems like there are relatively few skaters in some of the skill levels at the younger ages. I also agree with the concern that those YA skaters are likely to be way ahead in skill level of the true adult-onset bronze skaters. On the other hand, I hope they wouldn't be skating below their level. Then again, I could end up competing against a 21 year old in a club competition, and I think that is so not fair!

It just seems like another move in the direction AWAY from encouraging true adult-onset skaters, and towards keeping people who have skated extensively as kids. Nothing wrong with trying to keep people in the sport, but let's not make it even harder for the other adults.

Pat

[Terri C]

Changing the age categories seems like a bad idea to me, too. Hasn't there already been discussion about how many skaters need to be accommodated at nationals? Now they want to expand the age limits further? So there's more people? And from what I have read anyway, it seems like there are relatively few skaters in some of the skill levels at the younger ages. I also agree with the concern that those YA skaters are likely to be way ahead in skill level of the true adult-onset bronze skaters.

It just seems like another move in the direction AWAY from encouraging true adult-onset skaters, and towards keeping people who have skated extensively as kids. Nothing wrong with trying to keep people in the sport, but let's not make it even harder for the other adults.Pat


Riddle me this, riddle me that. If they can have a well balanced program requirements for Pre Bronze, as well as allow 21 year olds to compete, then Pre Bronze free should be offered at AN!

[jenlyon60]

The problem is that there is a finite limit on time and size for a competition like Adult Nationals. Unless TPTB plan to either eliminate events or split AN into 2 separate competitions (similar to "big" nationals and Junior Nats for the kids)...

If the age group adjustments pass (which they probably will), it will be interesting to see how many individuals in the lower age categories actually show up. If they keep AN at about the same time of year as it is now, the number of younger skaters (thinking college junior/seniors) may not be that many, since it's after most spring breaks have ended.

I can't comment on the levels that these younger skaters would compete at. I've seen at least one skater who just turned 25 start at the bottom of the Adult test series, even though the individual had tested through Intermediate MIF and Juv FS. My guess is that depending on how they cross over, that they might end up either at Gold or Masters. But that's based on what I've seen at my rink in terms of the "older" young skaters.

[Lives to skate]

It looks like we could use a few more in Gold Mens and Masters anyway so it could be a good idea to add the age changes.

[skaternum]

It just seems like another move in the direction AWAY from encouraging true adult-onset skaters, and towards keeping people who have skated extensively as kids. Nothing wrong with trying to keep people in the sport, but let's not make it even harder for the other adults.I totally agree. For the last few years, every time I've heard a USFSA official other than an adult skating committee member (chairperson, whatever) refer to "adult skaters," it became obvious that they meant "returning skaters." The initial thrust of the adult skating movement was to give adults learning to skate a chance to compete with peers. I really hate to say it, but I feel like the adult-onset skaters are getting pushed aside by the PTB. It's still pretty subtle, but I sense it happening.

[tazsk8s]

The USFSA just posted the lists of proposed rule changes to be discussed and voted on at GC. I only looked at the technical items list, but I noticed several items of interest to adult skaters.

Weren't they looking at voting on the proposed changes to the adult MITF structure at GC? Maybe I'm just missing it but I didn't see it in there anywhere???

Taz (praying that they put the slide chasse in Gold where it belongs anyway otherwise I will never pass that stinkin' test! :frus: )

[dbuckley]

I have the same question about the MIF. I was really looking forward to the removal of the slide chasis pattern from the silver moves.

[Terri C]

The problem is that there is a finite limit on time and size for a competition like Adult Nationals.

If that's the case, then why include the 21-24 year olds anyway? If the TPTB (or whatever it is), can do that I still argue that there can be Pre Bronzers at AN!

[icechick]

I have the same question about the MIF. I was really looking forward to the removal of the slide chasis pattern from the silver moves.

Also anxious to see if changes will be made in Silver Moves, but hoping that they KEEP the slide chasse.....I HATE power pulls!!!!

[coskater64]

So does that mean for champs they would allow 21 + in those groups? Maybe they should have champ gold/masters/ladies/men w/ two age groups 21-34 and then 35 and up. It's hard enough skating against a 26 year old @ 40. Then the gold YA's have passed their intermediate FS do we make it the same as the regular gold criteria? And what about those 21 year olds who were sr ladies usually making it to sectionals that come on the scene in masters? Isn't this an interesting query?

On the fm thing, I would guess that the Novice move will be taken off the gold and the slide put in and then the slide off the silver. The purpose of the moves is to make them doable, even though the novice 3's just take a lot of practice and a lot of nerve especially if you do them to close to the wall.

la :lol:

[sk8er1964]

So does that mean for champs they would allow 21 + in those groups? Maybe they should have champ gold/masters/ladies/men w/ two age groups 21-34 and then 35 and up. It's hard enough skating against a 26 year old @ 40. Then the gold YA's have passed their intermediate FS do we make it the same as the regular gold criteria? And what about those 21 year olds who were sr ladies usually making it to sectionals that come on the scene in masters? Isn't this an interesting query?

I'm not particularly thrilled with the idea of competing with people who are almost 20 years younger than me. My coach thinks it's a horrible idea (and he's young!)

On the fm thing, I would guess that the Novice move will be taken off the gold and the slide put in and then the slide off the silver. The purpose of the moves is to make them doable, even though the novice 3's just take a lot of practice and a lot of nerve especially if you do them to close to the wall.

la :lol: Heck, I bounced off the wall on those things so many times when I was doing Gold moves! Can't wait until I visit them again this summer for Novice ;)

[Mel On Ice]

I have the same question about the MIF. I was really looking forward to the removal of the slide chasis pattern from the silver moves.

I'm disappointed because this was one pattern I could do really well.

[daisies]

Weren't they looking at voting on the proposed changes to the adult MITF structure at GC? Maybe I'm just missing it but I didn't see it in there anywhere???It's not a Request for Action because it was already approved by the Board of Directors last October. It just needs to be ratified at GC.

[NoVa Sk8r]

I'm disappointed because this was one pattern I could do really well.Well, it'll be sitting and waiting for you once you reach gold MIF! 8-)

And concerning the slide chassé pattern, I always hated it, but in all my 3 times taking the silver moves test, I always passed it. It's those damn back inside 3-turns that methinks are the bêtes noires of the test!

[jazzpants]

I'm not particularly thrilled with the idea of competing with people who are almost 20 years younger than me. My coach thinks it's a horrible idea (and he's young!)
Neither am I. Then again, I did beat someone who's 16 years younger than me at one competition once, so who knows... *shrug*

Speaking of competing against the young guns... any thoughts on this? Gut feeling says it's kinda wimpy. It doesn't say anything about the "newly minted Class I" skaters competing at Championship Adult Gold or Championship Adult Masters. If they're allowed as well, the old fogies (like me) would definitely have a disadvantage. (Well, if I ever get up to Adult Championship level...) :frus:


304. Adult Skating Committee

Rule 3216 (C) - Entries (page 77). To amend language of this rule to prohibit a competitor from entering both the standard-track qualifying events (regionals/sectionals/nationals) and the adult qualifying events (adult sectionals/adult nationals) in the same competitive season as follows:.

May not enter an adult level at a qualifying competition (adult sectionals/adult nationals) and a standard level at a qualifying competition (regionals/sectionals/nationals) in same kind of event (i.e., free skating, dance) in the same competition season, and vice versa. For example, a skater may not enter novice men free skating on the standard track and masters free skating on the adult track in the same season, but may enter novice men free skating on the standard track and masters pairs on the adult track.

Rationale:


General: There are many young adult skaters who have not had a true tructure to keep them interested in skating. These rules are designed to encourage retention of skaters during these critical years. It’s not only for the retention of high-level skaters, but also for the encouragement of the beginner skater who is too old to participate in the lower-level standard-track events. There is currently no competitive structure to encourage a young adult to learn to skate.


I don’t want to compete against these “young guns!”
The revised age classes will allow for the younger skaters to compete together and will continue to accommodate adult skaters’ skill depreciation due to age. The additional proposal to not allow a competitor to compete in both a standard qualifying event and an adult qualifying event in the same competitive season will help keep the adult and standard tracks separate and, for example, deter the high-level pair or dance competitor from entering adult sectionals or nationals just because the team did not advance from their regional or sectional competition; this would also be true for the singles skater. (Note: A similar rule was in place when adult skaters qualified to adult nationals from standard-level regionals/sectionals – it is currently in the rulebook as 3216C -- but needs to be updated to reflect the implementation of adult sectionals.)

What about collegiate skaters?
If a skater is going to college as a full-time student, under this proposal, they may still choose to enter the adult track. However, as stated above, they would not be allowed to enter both the standard-track and adult-track qualifying events in the same competitive season. Typically, the standard-track skaters who enter collegiate competitions are the higher-level skaters (Intermediate and above). The adult track’s masters levels are also divided by age, so the current masters-level FS competitors would not have to compete against the “young guns” in the age divided events. The rationale, again, is to keep these skaters in the sport.

Financial Impact: Adjustments to the rulebook and competition forms.

[manleywoman]

Speaking of competing against the young guns... any thoughts on this? ...It doesn't say anything about the "newly minted Class I" skaters competing at Championship Adult Gold or Championship Adult Masters. If they're allowed as well, the old fogies (like me) would definitely have a disadvantage.

Considering that consistantly the average age of those who make the top 4 at Sectionals and therefore compete at Champ, Levels tends towards late 30s, I don't consider it an issue. I'm 33 and get regularly beaten by the 35 to 43 year olds in Champ. Masters.

[PattyP]

Wasn't last year's winner of Ladies Champ Gold a class III skater? Hardly a "young gun"!

[mr7740]

Gosh darn it...I have been waiting until i turned 25 to compete and now that I will actually be able to compete in 2006 they change the rules. Is this going to be implemented for AN next year?

[kisscid]

Debbie,
At least we were ahead of everyone else this season on the well balanced program concept. I also feel that they need to go one further and not allow camel spins in Pre- Bronze (sorry!).
If you read the information for oberstdorf comp they have have "well balanced" programs layed out from bronze on up; Here is the link:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/event_details.asp?id=27945
Click on the PDF file to the right. Of course this is for CoP but it's what we all should be aiming for in the future.
Cid

[Terri C]

If you read the information for oberstdorf comp they have have "well balanced" programs layed out from bronze on up;Cid

Cid,
Just a little clarification here- Debbie S and I competed at the Pre Bronze level this past season and both our respective coaches implemented the well balanced program for Bronze freeskate in our Pre- Bronze programs!

[sk8er1964]

Wasn't last year's winner of Ladies Champ Gold a class III skater? Hardly a "young gun"!

Yeah, she was. And there are many very good 35+ skaters at our level. However, I am still not thrilled with the prospect of competing with 21 year olds. 25 yes - that's ok. I remember being 21, barely out of the teenage years and filled with energy. I remember being 25, still with a lot of energy, but not the same as at 21 - more mature, less like a kid kind of energy. I can be competitive against most 25 year olds - I'm not sure that holds true for 21 year olds. (I don't know if this makes sense or is simply fear of the unknown.)

[tazsk8s]

Also anxious to see if changes will be made in Silver Moves, but hoping that they KEEP the slide chasse.....I HATE power pulls!!!!

Well, yeah. I never thought I'd say that power pulls were the lesser of two evils for me...my knees ache just at the thought of having to get these up to passing standard. :( But I can already do pretty reasonable backward ones and just have to get over my fear of the toepick/faceplant on the forward ones. Piece of cake compared to back outside 3's at speed!

And, like someone already said, the slide chasse will still be waiting for us at Gold...

[caolaidhe]

I'm actually delighted that the USFSA might change the definition of adult to 21+ instead of 25+. I always thought it was really weird and kind of lame that 21-24 year olds were kind of left out in the cold in terms of competing. I think I would have just changed Group I to be 21-35 instead of essentially adding an entire extra group (given that there don't seem to be *that* many 21-24 year olds with the time and money to compete). But regardless, I'm really in favor of including the "young adults".

As for being worried about competing against 21 year olds...personally, I think age is far less of a factor in skating than the amount of time and money that any given skater has to train. My list of important factors that affect the "competitiveness" of an adult skater would go something more like this, in order of importance:

1. Time to train (both off and on ice)
2. Money available for ice time & coaching
3. Discipline in training (how hard does the skater work)
4. Genetics (body alignment & body type)

I honestly don't think age by itself becomes a significant factor until much, much later than people seem to think. Goodness knows that at 29 years old, I got my butt kicked in Champ Gold at Mids this year by older skaters! And I am quite seriously in much better shape now than I was at 21. (Not that I was skating at 21, but in terms of fitness, strength, and flexibility.) And living here in Colorado, I've been out-hiked, out-climbed, and out-skied more times than I can count by people from their late 50s even up to their 80s who were in awesome shape (being retired, they can spend all their time in the mountains and on the slopes, unlike me who has to work!).

I guess I'm just saying, if you're not in your 20s anymore, don't sell yourself short! Just because someone is younger doesn't automatically mean they will be better or more energetic than you.

[Mrs Redboots]

I'm surprised, given they are lowering the entry age, that they don't go the whole hog & lower it to 18, as they do here. But then, of course, one is not fully adult in the USA at 18, as one is in the UK, so perhaps it makes sense. But an 18-25 age group, then 26-35 and so on, would probably work better.

[crayonskater]

I'm 25 and in excellent condition (as Dick Button would say), but I think there's something to be said for not lowering the age to 21. At least here in the U.S., most 18-21 year old types are still in college, and have a lot more time to practice/less responsibilities/probably no children. I think that gives them a training advantage as a class that would be hard for an adult to overcome.

But maybe it balances out with the money advantage that most young 20s don't have. Probably better to have a larger competitive pool, anyway.

[Jennifer28]

I don't see just age as being an issue as brought up before on this forum. I see the skill level being the issue. Here it is. A 40 yo competing against a 22 yo might not be a big deal if that 22 yo started skating let's say at 21. By inviting the young ones to compete we are also inviting more difficult skill levels. That 22 yo you compete against more than likely started skating as a teen, and no matter what anyone says it does make a difference - hence the kid skater we all talk about. Me personally, I don't care who I compete against. But I am aware that there are others who do not want to compete with the kids that normally they didn't have to based on the standard age rules.

[caolaidhe]

I don't see just age as being an issue as brought up before on this forum. I see the skill level being the issue. Here it is. A 40 yo competing against a 22 yo might not be a big deal if that 22 yo started skating let's say at 21. By inviting the young ones to compete we are also inviting more difficult skill levels. That 22 yo you compete against more than likely started skating as a teen, and no matter what anyone says it does make a difference - hence the kid skater we all talk about.

Well, sure, but isn't that what the test level restrictions are meant to control? A 21 year old who skated as a child or a teenager for enough years to matter would probably have passed some standard track tests already, and thus be restricted from competing at the lower adult levels. I understand that some people feel there are still problems & issues with the level restrictions (e.g. dance tests not counting toward freestyle level restrictions, etc), but in that case I think people should focus on getting the USFSA to refine or change the skill and test restrictions for the adult levels, not prohibit people simply based on age.

I guess I happen to know of several "young adults" who started at age 21 or 22 and haven't turned 25 yet, who would love to try competing but until recently have had very few opportunities. Within the last year or so, some local competitions here have started just allowing them to compete anyway in the standard adult events, which is great, but they'd love to be able to go to AN and other competitions as well. Given the recent downturn in entries for Class I in bronze, I think it would be great if we could get more adults started in competitive skating, even if they are "young".

[mr7740]

I can certainly attest to the money issues for skaters in their early 20's. For the past 6-7 years I have been lucky to be able to skate one time a week. Even now ( I will be 25 soon) I look forward to improving my skating and being able to be competitive in master's once I am making at least 5 figures(finishing up year 6 now and currently deciding whether to stop or add another 3-4 years of school). I certainly can't afford to skate multiple days out of the week much less take lessons from a coach. I think in most cases age balances itself out with means, but certainly there are excellent young skaters without money issues. I still think 25 is a good age for adult skating...I am young and I don't feel like competing against 21 year olds who are closer to their prime than I am.

[Debbie S]

Well, sure, but isn't that what the test level restrictions are meant to control? A 21 year old who skated as a child or a teenager for enough years to matter would probably have passed some standard track tests already, and thus be restricted from competing at the lower adult levels.

But here's the problem: competition "standards" in the standard track are very different than those in the adult track for the equivalent tests. For example, Bronze FS and Prelim FS are basically the same test. However, Prelim competitions permit skaters to do an axel and 2 different doubles (which can be repeated in combinations). As a result, most kids don't take the Prelim FS test until they are way past the test level, but in Bronze FS, b/c of the restrictions (no axel or doubles), the skaters testing to that level are much closer to the test standard. If you're an adult and can do an axel and 2 doubles, you're competing at Gold, at least.

Obviously, the "kid" skaters who have tested to Prelim won't be able to do axels or doubles if they compete at Bronze, but their spins and overall skating, as well as the quality of their single jumps, will be of much higher quality than a typical Bronze skater who started skating as an adult. Just watch Young Adult comps and compare the skating to the corresponding adult level. In YA Pre-Bronze at the New Year's Invitational last year, both skaters had all of their singles through lutz and the winner did, among other things, a flip-loop combo. You would never see that at Adult Pre-Bronze. The hardest jump you usually see there is a solo loop.

[sk8pics]

Well, sure, but isn't that what the test level restrictions are meant to control? A 21 year old who skated as a child or a teenager for enough years to matter would probably have passed some standard track tests already, and thus be restricted from competing at the lower adult levels. ...
... Given the recent downturn in entries for Class I in bronze, I think it would be great if we could get more adults started in competitive skating, even if they are "young".

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? If we need more adults at the lower levels, letting a 21 year old as you described above compete doesn't address that at all. Not to mention Debbie's points about test vs. competition level in the standard track.

I guess I would like to see the young adult category formalized if anything, rather than adding in 21-24 year olds with older skaters. And I repeat, I don't think it's fair for me to have to compete against a 21 year old in a club competition that is not big enough to have age categories. You may disagree but that's how I feel.

Pat

[blue111moon]

I don't think it's fair for me to have to compete against a 21 year old in a club competition that is not big enough to have age categories. You may disagree but that's how I feel.

Pat

Would you rather not skate at all?

I just finished my club's open and we had to combine events and age groups. It's not cost effective to hold an event for one or two skaters and since the purpose of holding the competition is to raise funds for the club, we have to combine events to maximize usage. We did it for the kids as well so it's not just an adult thing.

Just about every non-qualifying event announcement I've ever seen contains a phrase stating that the competition committee reserves the right to combine and divide groups as numbers and ice time dictate. Perhaps, since you seem to feel so strongly about competing outside your age group, you should check for that phrase and avoid entering competitions which include it. Of course, that won't leave you many places to compete but it's your choice.

Or you could set up and run your own competition according to your own rules.

[skaternum]

Or you could set up and run your own competition according to your own rules.This seems a little snippy and over-reactive. I'm a 40 year old adult onset skater. Like sk8pics, I don't want to compete against a 21 year old. What's so horrible about that sentiment? Age classes in adult skating are there for a reason. We acknowledge that, in general, it matters. That doesn't mean that we always get that luxury in local comps, but there's nothing wrong with saying you don't want to compete against a 21 year old. It's not like we're suggesting a boycott of comps that don't divide us up. :roll:

[kar5162]

I can be competitive against most 25 year olds - I'm not sure that holds true for 21 year olds. (I don't know if this makes sense or is simply fear of the unknown.)

Probably both. A 21 year old who's been skating for years and wants to switch over to the adult track because they aren't competitive at the standard track may be hard to beat. A 21 year old like I was - literally just starting, would be easy to beat. But I know I would have begun competing much sooner and would probably gone to Adult Nationals earlier. I am (well, would have been without this latest injury) much more competitive at 27, but competing once at pre-preliminary was enough to turn me off competing for a few years.

I don't think the change would add much to the numbers, but would encourage newer, younger skaters.

kim

[jazzpants]

You would never see that at Adult Pre-Bronze. The hardest jump you usually see there is a solo loop.Oh, not me! At Skate SF, the hardest jump landed is a lutz. (Real ones and not the wimpy hoppy ones...) I often see flip-loop in pre-Bronze and the occasionally camel-sit spin. The experience there is much closer to what you would see at Sectionals pre-Bronze.

Last year we didn't have a pre-Bronze FS event though. No one signed up. :( Weird!!!

Hmmm? Maybe I should have signed up for next year's New Year's! I have the occasionally loop or flip. :P

[caolaidhe]

But here's the problem: competition "standards" in the standard track are very different than those in the adult track for the equivalent tests. For example, Bronze FS and Prelim FS are basically the same test. However, Prelim competitions permit skaters to do an axel and 2 different doubles (which can be repeated in combinations).


I guess to me that seems like it's more a problem with the test level restrictions on the adult levels, than an age issue, and that it makes more sense to try and address that by getting the USFSA to change the test level restrictions. I can totally understand about not wanting someone with an axel and doubles to compete bronze. I just wish there was a way to prevent that, AND allow people who honestly started for the first time in their early twenties a chance to compete without having to wait for years.

Maybe it would make more sense to just drop the adult level age down to 23, while at the same time opening the collegiate type of competitions to people aged 18-22 who aren't in college (or who are in college, but their college doesn' t have a team). (The USFSA does have collegiate competitions, right? I'm pretty sure I've heard about that in recent years...) Then everybody might have a chance to attend competitions with their peers.

As for the issues with the test level restrictions...man, it's a hard problem. How can the USFSA be sure what a returning skater is capable of? Take the prelim test. As you say, some kids wait to pass that until they have their doubles. I've seen that at our local club, but I've also seen older kids and teens go ahead and take the test when they are truly "prelim" level skaters, just barely able to pass. And then what about someone who did in fact have their doubles as a kid, but now they haven't skated for 40 or 50 years and decide they'd like to come back? Sometimes I think the only way to be "fair" would be to have all returning skaters who'd like to compete as adults show up at a test session and skate in front of a set of judges who have judged adult skating before. The judges would then evaluate their skating and decide what level they would be allowed to enter the adult structure at. (Masters, gold, silver, whatever.) But of course there's so many practical problems with that idea that I know it'll never happen!

[caolaidhe]

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? If we need more adults at the lower levels, letting a 21 year old as you described above compete doesn't address that at all.

I was thinking primarily of the skaters who really do start for the very first time in their early twenties, not returning kid skaters. (See my response to Debbie to see my opinion about those.) To me there doesn't seem to be that much difference between someone who started at 21 and someone who started at 25. To me, they're both adults and as beginner-level skaters would be equally qualified for bronze. (I realize you may disagree - that's ok, it's just my opinion.)


And I repeat, I don't think it's fair for me to have to compete against a 21 year old in a club competition that is not big enough to have age categories. You may disagree but that's how I feel.
Pat
Again, no worries about disagreeing. I fully respect your opinion and feelings. And I agree that there may be a different way to handle the situation than dropping the age to 21 - as you said, the USFSA could formalize the young adult track. And I don't think my opinion is necessarily the right one or anything like that. I'm just giving my own point of view to contribute to the discussion.

[NoVa Sk8r]

According to the Fall 2004 Board of Directors Report of Action (http://www.usfsa.org/Story.asp?id=27717), item number 7 addresses some of the concerns in this thread.

This rule is intended to clarify and document grandfathering and crossover rules between adult and standard track tests. Three proposals have been put forth.

Proposal A:
Create the allowance of crossing over from the standard track to the adult track for MIF only.

Proposal B:
Allow the passing of either the standard or adult MIF test prior to taking the adult FS or pair test.

Proposal C:
Allow an adult skater who has passed the standard FS test to cross over to the adult track by passing the appropriate MIF.

I like proposal C mainly because it uses the word MUST.
For example, if a skater has passed the Pre-Juvenile FS, the skater must then pass Juvenile MIF or Adult Silver MIF to be eligible to compete in adult silver level.
I read this to mean that the passing of the Pre-Juvenile test PRECLUDES this skater from competing at anything less than silver level. This skater has to take a moves test to compete in the adult ranks, and once doing so, will be at the middle silver level.
(Similarly, Pre-Preliminary FS makes you eligible for Pre-Bronze, Preliminary FS for Bronze, and juvenile for Gold.)

Seems fair to me.

[sk8pics]

Or you could set up and run your own competition according to your own rules.

I think this was uncalled for. I have NOT suggested running competitions under MY own rules. I have simply expressed my opinion regarding age levels and limits. I have NOT attacked you for the way you have run local competitions, and I HAVE competed in club competitions where the age levels are combined. BTW, what club competition were you involved in running?

I was thinking primarily of the skaters who really do start for the very first time in their early twenties, not returning kid skaters. (See my response to Debbie to see my opinion about those.) To me there doesn't seem to be that much difference between someone who started at 21 and someone who started at 25. To me, they're both adults and as beginner-level skaters would be equally qualified for bronze. (I realize you may disagree - that's ok, it's just my opinion.)
Thanks for the clarification and your thoughtful replies. I do think there's some truth to what you are saying here, but I have seen differences in rates of learning even between, let's say, early 20's and late 20's, but maybe not as big as if the age difference were more than, let's say, 10 years.

What's so horrible about that sentiment? Age classes in adult skating are there for a reason. We acknowledge that, in general, it matters. That doesn't mean that we always get that luxury in local comps, but there's nothing wrong with saying you don't want to compete against a 21 year old. It's not like we're suggesting a boycott of comps that don't divide us up.
Thanks for your input as well.

Pat

[aussieskater]

I've read this thread with some envy at the thought of having separate Adult and Standard tracks. Down here, we just don't have such a thing - everyone tests and competes in our version of standard track, so you have mature age (40 and 50+) primary level dancers competing with 10 and 12-year-olds in competition.

Most of us adults don't compete because there is no-one to compete against - the competitions mostly don't even have an "adult" section, and it's no fun as an adult-onset skater to be the only adult in a field of kid skaters (and then reliably come last...)

There have been mutterings afoot to establish some sort of adult testing and competing track, but I suspect he** would have to freeze over first. Sad, because as someone above posted, the adults are generally the ones with the discretionary income to spend on skating and I would have thought that it would have been somewhat of a money-spinner for our skating associations.

[blue111moon]

Okay, I'll accept the slap for my comment about running your own competition; it was snippy and I apologize. My only excuse is that I'd just come off a weekend of running my club's open -which went very well, even though the only complaint I received was from an adult Gold skater who objected to having to skate her interpretive program in a grop with bronze and silver skaters (which she did not win, BTW). So I expect I was touchy on the subject and over reacted. It also apparently dilluted the message I was trying to convey.

My point is that in local competitions splitting events by age isn't usually possible for very practical reasons. Good heavens, I've been competing for decades and been beaten by people young enough to be my children - and by people old enough to be my parent! While I do like competing with people my own age, I also know that it's not always possible. At large events like Adult Nationals, it's a great way to sub-divide levels. Most non-qualifying competitions don't have the numbers to warrent it, though.

Personally, I'm more concerned with the test levels and with coming up with some way to allow people who didn't skate as children to compete against their peers while still encouraging skaters who did skate as children to continue with the sport past high school and college. I'm not sure how to do that but I do see a lot of adults who are intimidated by the returning or continuing skaters and are refusing to test or compete against them. That isn't good for the sport, to discourage people before they even start.

From watching countless events, I can see that there's a greater obvious difference between a 25 year old who learned to skate at age 8 and passed Pre Free then and a 25 year old who learned to skate at 21 even if both passed Pre Bronze and Bronze within months of their birthdays than there is between a 25 year old and a 40 year old (or in my case, a 51-year-old) who learned to skate after age 25. In a lot of cases, it's really hard to tell how old people are on the ice unless you can see their faces up close - make-up is a wonderful thing! :) It' how they move that makes the difference - and I've seen 50-year old grandmothers zip around a lot more quickly and confidently than 30 somethings. It's not always age that makes the difference - sometimes it's just skill and practice.

Running a competition of any size is a lot of work - organizers do the best they can and very rarely hear about anything except where they fail. I've been around long enough to remember a time when there were NO events for adults at all so compared to then (1984???) what we have now is heavenly. I encourage adults to get involved with running club competitions as well as skating in them wheneven adult events are offered even if conditions aren't ideal. Sheer numbers is one way to convince organizers that adults are a viable part of the community.
Plus we can't split groups into age categories until we have enough skaters to make it feasible. I was thrilled the last couple years to be able to split the Bronze adults into groups by age. I'm sure the spreads didn't match Adult Nationals definitions but it's a start!

Anyay, I hope sincerely that the fear of having to compete against someone outside of your age group isn't what's keeping people from entering local competitions.

[Skatewind]

Running a competition of any size is a lot of work - organizers do the best they can and very rarely hear about anything except where they fail. I've been around long enough to remember a time when there were NO events for adults at all so compared to then (1984???) what we have now is heavenly. I encourage adults to get involved with running club competitions as well as skating in them wheneven adult events are offered even if conditions aren't ideal. Sheer numbers is one way to convince organizers that adults are a viable part of the community.
Plus we can't split groups into age categories until we have enough skaters to make it feasible. I was thrilled the last couple years to be able to split the Bronze adults into groups by age. I'm sure the spreads didn't match Adult Nationals definitions but it's a start!
ITA. In my experience, a lot of the biggest complainers are around much when it's time for the actual work to be done, while the adult skaters who do volunteer regularly are often more understanding regarding the limitations since they've seen some of the problems that can arise firsthand.

It's exciting to see more & more adults skating & watch the activities increase, although at the same time it's somewhat disheartening to see them become more like the kids, as was demonstrated in that thread where people wanted to strong arm the gold men's skater to combine classes without much respect for decisions made within the rules.