Gold II Men at AN's...read this ASAP!

[SkateGuard]

This is a plea on behalf of my clubmate. He's the Gold I who got "kicked" out of Adult Nationals for lack of competition.

First, if you are a Gold II Man who is skating at AN's, please e-mail Lori Osbourne at osbornel@msn.com and tell her that you want to be combined with Gold I.

And if you are the Gold II man who doesn't want to add a Gold I, let me tell you....since his 35th birthday in November, all I've heard is how he's too old....one of your competitors is offering to buy you a drink before the competition if you're nervous. :D

If you know the dissentor, please pass this to him. We want our friend to compete. Trust me, with Burt and Chris in your group, you have nothing to worry about with a Gold I. Especially one who still can't do a consistent axel as he recovers from injuries....

[starskate6.0]

Sent a letter to Lori today, did the best I could to help you out. See PM ;) Get back to me and let me know what happened. :D

[starskate6.0]

This is a plea on behalf of my clubmate. He's the Gold I who got "kicked" out of Adult Nationals for lack of competition.

First, if you are a Gold II Man who is skating at AN's, please e-mail Lori Osbourne at osbornel@msn.com and tell her that you want to be combined with Gold I.

And if you are the Gold II man who doesn't want to add a Gold I, let me tell you....since his 35th birthday in November, all I've heard is how he's too old....one of your competitors is offering to buy you a drink before the competition if you're nervous. :D

If you know the dissentor, please pass this to him. We want our friend to compete. Trust me, with Burt and Chris in your group, you have nothing to worry about with a Gold I. Especially one who still can't do a consistent axel as he recovers from injuries....

Im sure the rest of us gold men II are going to give Burt and chris a run for there Money.. ;) Keep working guy's , This will be one blast of an event 'eh"

[SkateGuard]

Yeah, this is going to be one of the best events in KC. I am very much looking forward to it. And I have heard about you, but I didn't want to put in "starskate6.0 on skateforums" in my message. ;)

Yeah, a certain Gold II man and I are on the warpath, lol. Seriously, the three of us are clubmates and support each other! :D

[Lives to skate]

I wish that the Adult skaters were more supportive, especially the Gold Men. Come on.... there are few of us Nationwide anyway and we can use a little commaradarie! :giveup:

I was the target on this forum a few weeks ago. Many negative comments about me when someone hacked into my website and starting changing my site around and setting up a mirrored site that re-directed them to another site. :frus:

Now come on...it had to take a huge effort to do that...and why? I am guilty of self-promotion, but if they took the time to practice harder instead of worrying about what I was doing, and hacking my website to discredit me and try to get me disqualified, maybe they would skate better. I am not going to name the offender(s), but it is in legal action. :twisted:

What has the adult skating world come to? Will I need a body guard at AN? Let's hope not!

I have met mostly nice and supportive adult skaters and hope we can weed out those who are in the minority.

Thanks to those who know me and realized that it was out of character for me and defended me on this forum. :bow: :bow:

Lives to Skate (Burton)

[flo]

A sad correlation here: as the quality of adult skating has improved, the more we resemble the kids.

I've always felt the primary difference in the standard and adult track has been the support of our fellow skaters. This should also include the support of existing rules and individual's decisions. If we're going to become a program that estinguishes this support and through this and other actions discourages those starting as adults, we may as well skate with the kids.

[Lives to skate]

All adult skaters should work hard to improve their skills to show the rest of the skating community that we are just as competitive and talented as the rest of the skating world. Plus we have expendable income. And as the baby boomers grow older we should see an increase in adult skaters, not the reverse. If there is a decline we have to look at the reasons why there is fall-out.

The ISU's endorsement of Adult competitions is a HUGE milestone for Adult Skaters worldwide! We should grab this opportunity to show what we are and set an example to the rest of the world!

[skaternum]

Yes, I agree with flo. You may not particularly like this person's decision, but you should still respect it. It was his decision to make. I know it's disappointing that your clubmate can't skate, but sometimes that's the way it goes. I've been cancelled out of several events at comps before too. It sucks, but you just try again next year.

[jazzpants]

This is coming from someone who's been watching competitive adult skating for years from the sidelines and working towards becoming a competitor herself.

My first thoughts at reading about this is that I just don't understand why anyone would do such a thing. Over here where I skate, a lot of us shrug and think "We're adults! Chances are good we'll never go to the Olympics! We're probably never gonna end up on the Wheaties box (getting paid for endorsements.) At the end of the day, whether we win or not, we're all gonna go back to our lives outside of the rink!" (The tone was matter-of-fact and casual.) Then we all *sigh* and get back to our task of either practicing or rushing out of the rink to get to work.

So given that, I don't get all the hoopla that is surrounding some of these guys that are hacking into Burt's website or the reasoning behind the one guy that won't let SkateGuard's friend compete with the Adult Gold II men. I just don't. :?? But it's sad to see this since the support and comaradarie from my fellow adult skaters are one of MY main reasons for working towards the goal of going to AN.

[sk8er1964]

Please, to the person who won't agree to let Skateguard's class I friend skate in class II -- please reconsider! He's a great guy and we want him to come to AN!

[starskate6.0]

:roll: Im not sure what happend here. 8O
This was just a responce to try and help out a fellow skater who wanted to skate his freestyle. All I did was wright to Lori and ask her to contact the gold II skater iinvolved and ask him to re-concider . 8O That's all
However, if the skater decides to stick to his desision then thats all we can do and he is within his rights to do so. This whole post has nothing to do with Burt. Im looking forward to the event and seeing Burt on the ice.
I want to see every one skate. :giveup:

[kunduchaiko]

I wish that the Adult skaters were more supportive, especially the Gold Men. Come on.... there are few of us Nationwide anyway and we can use a little commaradarie! :giveup:

I was the target on this forum a few weeks ago. Many negative comments about me when someone hacked into my website and starting changing my site around and setting up a mirrored site that re-directed them to another site. :frus:

Now come on...it had to take a huge effort to do that...and why? I am guilty of self-promotion, but if they took the time to practice harder instead of worrying about what I was doing, and hacking my website to discredit me and try to get me disqualified, maybe they would skate better. I am not going to name the offender(s), but it is in legal action. :twisted:

What has the adult skating world come to? Will I need a body guard at AN? Let's hope not!

I have met mostly nice and supportive adult skaters and hope we can weed out those who are in the minority.

Thanks to those who know me and realized that it was out of character for me and defended me on this forum. :bow: :bow:

Lives to Skate (Burton)



Lives to Skate - I was the one that first brought your website to skatingforum's attention long before certain "incriminating" information was erased and changed. No one hacked into your website. Just own up to the fact that you are guilty of wanting hype around your comeback by creating stories to make you larger than "life" in Gold level skating.

It's just ridiculous

K Chaiko

[SkateGuard]

:roll: Im not sure what happend here. 8O
This was just a responce to try and help out a fellow skater who wanted to skate his freestyle. All I did was wright to Lori and ask her to contact the gold II skater iinvolved and ask him to re-concider . 8O That's all
However, if the skater decides to stick to his desision then thats all we can do and he is within his rights to do so. This whole post has nothing to do with Burt. Im looking forward to the event and seeing Burt on the ice.
I want to see every one skate. :giveup:

ITA, starskate. And a huge hug and welcome to Lives to Skate... :D You were one of the people who we assumed had no problem with including my friend...you have my support, anytime. (Though that whole website thing was confusing because it was so counter to your personality. Good thing the truth is coming out.)

I _do_ respect the rules. He was given an option, and he made a decision. However, we feel that this decision is _not_ an adult-friendly, supportive decision. All we want to do is reach out to this guy and ask him to reconsider, considering that my friend is 35 and not in medal contention. I think his decision was made without all the facts, so I don't think it was an educated choice. If that means I'm not respecting his decision, color me guilty. :roll:

This isn't about medals, it's about keeping the adult skating movement focused on participation. And if we just say "oh, well, there's always next year," well, what happens if the same guy does it again to a different Gold I in Dallas? We are trying to make an unfortunate situation be a victory for adult skating, okay? Look, if this guy changes his mind, he'll be the hero of 2005 AN's, and he won't even have to skate.

Sk8ter1964, the Masters Interp II guys didn't have issues, so he will be at Nationals. I'm even sewing him a new costume, I mean, outfit. (Sheesh, these straight men can't even wear a "costume," lol.)

flo and skaternum, you have no idea what my friend is like. He's the sweetest, most unassuming guy you will ever meet. He's had a lot of dumb-luck things like this happen to him in skating--to a point where he's told me he's quitting several times. My clubmate and I have to at least try to get him in Gold II, to show him that he is an important part of the skating community. Because right now, I don't think he realizes that he does belong.

If this doesn't work out, well, I tried. I just can't accept not trying.

[Mrs Redboots]

I, too, hope that the skater in question changes his mind - after all, I'm coming all the way from England to watch the skating, and it would be very sad to see someone sitting out when they didn't have to!

[techskater]

I believe Lices to Skate posted that he's a Class 3, so he wasn't even contacted

[SkateGuard]

Yeah, we assumed II because he looks so youthful! ;)

[manleywoman]

I _do_ respect the rules. He was given an option, and he made a decision. However, we feel that this decision is _not_ an adult-friendly, supportive decision. All we want to do is reach out to this guy and ask him to reconsider, considering that my friend is 35 and not in medal contention. I think his decision was made without all the facts, so I don't think it was an educated choice. If that means I'm not respecting his decision, color me guilty. :roll:

This isn't about medals, it's about keeping the adult skating movement focused on participation. And if we just say "oh, well, there's always next year," well, what happens if the same guy does it again to a different Gold I in Dallas? We are trying to make an unfortunate situation be a victory for adult skating, okay? Look, if this guy changes his mind, he'll be the hero of 2005 AN's, and he won't even have to skate.

If this doesn't work out, well, I tried. I just can't accept not trying.

But if he doesn't change his mind, do not crucify him for it. The rules are the rules, and it's his choice to make. So even though YOU don't think it's adult-friendly or supportive, ultimately you'll have to support his right to decide against including your Gold 1 man. It wouldn't be fair to crucify a guy who is following the rules just because you don't agree.

I don't know who the hell any of you are discussing, but I think it would be really unfortunate if anyone is made to feel bad because they were following the rules of the game.

It's ironic that you all are claiming to try to maintain an adult-friendly atmosphere, and in the same breath are NOT supporting a competitor who was well within his rights to make the decision he made.

Thank goodness I'm in Masters and out of all of this. We never have sandbagging issues (because by the nature of Masters, you can't move up and out anyway!), are all very supportive of each other, and don't seem to have as many issues as the other levels. I never hear Masters Ladies or Men complaining on this thread about anything.

[SkateGuard]

But if he doesn't change his mind, do not crucify him for it. The rules are the rules, and it's his choice to make. So even though YOU don't think it's adult-friendly or supportive, ultimately you'll have to support his right to decide against including your Gold 1 man. It wouldn't be fair to crucify a guy who is following the rules just because you don't agree.

I don't know who the hell any of you are discussing, but I think it would be really unfortunate if anyone is made to feel bad because they were following the rules of the game.

It's ironic that you all are claiming to try to maintain an adult-friendly atmosphere, and in the same breath are NOT supporting a competitor who was well within his rights to make the decision he made.

Now if he doesn't change his mind, he's within his rights....I just want to make sure that this guy made an informed choice....if he sees my friend skate interp this year, he's going to feel pretty stupid...did I mention the lack of an axel and inconsistent flying spins at gold? Or the fact my friend was on crutches from September until Thanksgiving? The axel and doubles are gone, the flying spins are labored, he's lost his camel. And this was after another injury made his hardest jump in Lake Placid a single loop. We're talking last place derby here....next year (when they're in the same group :roll: ), it will be a very different story.....

In all honesty, it's for the best for my friend not to compete, but I wouldn't be a good friend if I just let it go. (Especially since he's been threatening to quit because of silly stuff like this! It validates that he doesn't belong in adult skating. :cry: ) He paid his entry fee, he should be allowed to skate--even if it is an exhibition or a critique. This is what the LOC decided to do, so that's what I'm pushing for

BTW, let me explain this scenario one more time. There is _no_ sandbagging here. It is an _age group_ combination--a completely different issue. There is not a huge difference between a I and a III--check out the champ gold groups--so there is almost a "what's his problem" situation, rather than a lack of respect. Had it been a level combination, this would be a totally different story--even my friend would refuse to skate silver or masters novice--he's a gold.

Personally, I have a hard time respecting any decision that is made based on assumptions. And in this case, I'd bet this guy assumed that this
Gold I would beat him....did I mention the crutches, the bone chip fracture? But I can't make that assumption either. We've seen the way Lori contacted the Gold II men...our clubmate, who is a Gold II, didn't realize that the Gold I was the guy he skates with three days a week until we told him. So we know that the guys were not informed how old the Gold I is....

Here's the other kicker....there were 3 Gold I's to originally sign up, but the other two withdrew due to injuries. So, for the sophomoric peanut gallery....what do you think they should have done? Personally, given the age of my friend (35), I would have just combined the group without consent. Had he been even 34, then it would be different. Gosh, had he been _10 months_ older, this would be a moot point.

Jazzpants, awesome post...ITA, totally. I so want you to get those MIF/FS tests passed so you can join us! You understand the true spirit of adult skating! :bow:

[sk8er1964]

But if he doesn't change his mind, do not crucify him for it. The rules are the rules, and it's his choice to make. So even though YOU don't think it's adult-friendly or supportive, ultimately you'll have to support his right to decide against including your Gold 1 man. It wouldn't be fair to crucify a guy who is following the rules just because you don't agree.

I don't know who the hell any of you are discussing, but I think it would be really unfortunate if anyone is made to feel bad because they were following the rules of the game.

I hadn't thought of that angle, manleywoman. You make a very good point.

I know Skateguard's friend, but I don't know who the other guy is. Don't particularly want to know, either. If I did know who it was, I wouldn't blame him for his decision - who knows? I might have done the same thing in his skates. It is AN, and not some local comp.

Glad your friend will be there anyway in the interp, Skateguard!

[SkateGuard]

Glad your friend will be there anyway in the interp, Skateguard!

Yes, and please help me convince him that he belongs at ANs...I think he felt a bit rejected by the USFS when this happened. I'm really wondering why he worked so hard since December to get himself in shape to compete at AN's when there ends up being no competition. He could have worked on catching up to me in dance....sigh. :cry:

However, he had to also chase down the LOC to find out what's going on--he wasn't told anything and nearly would have arrived and discovered that there was no point in coming. And no, they haven't given him his $$ back....

[starskate6.0]

I would like to cut through the confusion here,( perhapes Im the only one confused :roll: , most likley). 1. I tried to help this gentleman get on the ice with us in Gold II, Wrote a letter, no responce from the officals yet.
2. It may be too late anyway but I gave it a go.
3. The gold II skater who said no, is quite within his right to stick to his desision and I will go along with that ruleing if that is the case and respect that desision.
4. I don't believe there is any "bad" feelings or atttitudes here, just a bunch of people who would like to see someone get the chance to skate the freestyle program he worked on.
5. If he does not get to skate at least he has the Interp, ( much more fun anyway").
6. I would like to see everyone skate but in KC I will be cheering for all of you.
Im in KC tonight for an overnight on my job.....( stuck in hotel at the airport. :cry: )

[daisies]

I just want to make sure that this guy made an informed choice....if he sees my friend skate interp this year, he's going to feel pretty stupid...did I mention the lack of an axel and inconsistent flying spins at gold? Or the fact my friend was on crutches from September until Thanksgiving?
Yes, numerous times. But I think it's quite out of line for you to say that this Gold Man who has made his decision is "going to feel pretty stupid." That's just downright presumptive and, frankly, mean. You have no idea how he will feel or why he made his decision. I agree with manleywoman ... I don't know who the guy is, but he's made a decision that is completely within the rules. I'm sorry your friend can't skate FS, but name-calling isn't going to solve anything.

Personally, I have a hard time respecting any decision that is made based on assumptions ..... And in this case, I'd bet this guy assumed that this Gold I would beat him.
But don't you see? Here YOU are assuming what this guy assumed!

Personally, given the age of my friend (35), I would have just combined the group without consent.
I am surprised that isn't what happened, because typically these types of matters are up to the referee's discretion. But apparently they chose a different route. I hope you have voiced your concerns to the referee, because at the end of the day (s)he is the only one who can change the outcome, not any of us.

[SkateGuard]

But don't you see? Here YOU are assuming what this guy assumed!

Did you bother to read my next sentence....I said that if I did that, I would be assuming, too, and that would be wrong. I was going by the facts--that the Gold II weren't told this was a 35 y.o. man.

We don't know _why_ this guy said no. But I'm not "name-calling." (Did I call him a moron? No. I said that he would "_feel_ stupid," because this is a guy who is not competitive in Gold II. Hey, I could be totally wrong about his feelings, I'm just suggesting. And I don't have to be right all the time--unlike some people here.)

However, I am very frustrated at the situation because it doesn't make sense. Just like the goof who "doctored" Burt's website (nice comparison, jazzpants). I think too, that for me, I am intimately involved on one side of a situation. And it has been a very difficult eight months for both of us. To work so hard and be denied access on a fluke scenario--it is very frustrating.

I believe this has happened this year to two other skaters--a Junior Masters man and a Senior Masters I lady. Obviously, a contingent plan needs to be set up for AN's so that everyone who signs up gets to skate (exhibition, critique,...). Now I'm talking about future years, not this year....

Why do I get the feeling that I need to be on the Adult Committee....

[daisies]

Did you bother to read my next sentence....I said that if I did that, I would be assuming, too, and that would be wrong. I was going by the facts--that the Gold II weren't told this was a 35 y.o. man.
Yes, I did bother to read your next sentence. I've read everything you've written on every board. And it seems to me that you've made a lot of assumptions in this case. You admit you don't know why this guy said no, yet you've speculated on various scenarios. To wit:

We don't know _why_ this guy said no. But I'm not "name-calling." (Did I call him a moron? No. I said that he would "_feel_ stupid," because this is a guy who is not competitive in Gold II.
In other thread you called him "foolish," but regardless, by saying he would "feel" stupid ("feel" or "is" .... I can parse words all day with you, but it's still name-calling), aren't you assuming that his reason for his decision is based on how competitive he would be against your friend? If not, what are you basing it on? No matter your answer, it's an assumption, because, as you said, you don't know his reason. And btw, just the phrase "he is going to feel stupid" is an assumption, because you can't possibly know how he will feel.

Why do I get the feeling that I need to be on the Adult Committee....
This issue has nothing to do with the adult committee. It's the referee's decision to make, and it's up to the LOC to communicate it to the competitors. If you haven't made your concerns known to those people, you should, because, again, it will go a lot further than parsing words on a message board.

I don't mean to belittle you or be nasty about this. I just think you need to go through the appropriate channels about this -- the referee and LOC -- and not be so public about it, because what I have read on the various message boards on the subject has been disrespectful to the Gold Man who made his decision based on the rules.

[flo]

skateguard,
Your friend's personality is not in question. Like Starskate has said, the gold man was offered a choice and made it. It was his decision. Weather it's about "medals" or "performances" for each individual is not a factor. It is a competition which we all entered under a well established set of guidelines.

[jazzpants]

Just a dopey thought -- if the concern is that your friend gets a chance to skate his FS program, then why can't he just do an exhibition for Gold I instead? :?:

[dcden]

Just a dopey thought -- if the concern is that your friend gets a chance to skate his FS program, then why can't he just do an exhibition for Gold I instead? :?:

At last, a wonderful compromise, not surprisingly from jazzpants. Kudos.

Your idea has precedent. Here's a link to a lone-competitor event at AN. The winner, as I recall, got the gold medal, the winner's plate, podium pictures, the whole works:
http://www.usfsa.org/event_related_details.asp?ri=/content/events/200203/adultnats/bronzemen-classi.htm

[flo]

Hi,
I believe the first person was probably allowed to compete because there was another competitor, although he withdrew. To hold an event there must be two competitors registered. Usually the person without a competitor is offered the option to skate an exhibition, but with judges feedback.

[blue111moon]

I'd like to point out, that from the technical viewpoint, you friend did not "get kicked out" of AN. He entered an event that has, through no fault of either the skater or the LOC, ended up having no other competitors. The LOC is under no obligation to hold an event with only one skater; nor are they obligated in any way to find a way for this skater to compete by combining age groups, which in effect creates a new event not spelled out in the announcement. It's nice if they do, but it's not required.

Neither USFS nor the LOC is picking on your friend personally. Events have been cancelled before for lack of participants. It's entirely possible that the Gold II man who requested that Gold II stick to its age limits was denied the opportunity to compete for the same reason in the past. It happens all the time to males and to older skaters and to higher level skaters in competition. It's just something you have to accept and get over.

[dcden]

Here's the other kicker....there were 3 Gold I's to originally sign up, but the other two withdrew due to injuries.


If this is true, then perhaps there should have been an option for the remaining Gold I man to compete. But then again, the withdrawals this year were known ahead of time, whereas the withdrawal in the event which I linked earlier may have only been known the day of the competition. Hard to say...

Skateguard, I do think it's probably too late to do anything about this year, but I would encourage you to visit the Adult Committee table at AN this year and let them know your thoughts anyway. While the mystery Gold II man was simply following rules, the better solution would be to consider new rules which would deal with this sort of situation in future AN's. Like if the lone competitor in one age class is within x years of the oldest (or youngest) competitor in an adjacent age class, then combine the groups. The committee would also have to consider whether such decisions would be mandatory or up to the referee. This sort of situation does not occur very often, and when it does it usually affects only the events which typically have low participation (the open masters events, adult men's open events in Class I or IV, etc.), so you don't hear about it often, which is probably why there is not a rule in place. But that's not saying there shouldn't be.

[Kristin]

Skateguard and others

Per U.S. Figure Skating rules, the chief referee has the authority to divide or combine age groups.

This was the decision of the chief referee to handle this situation in this particular way.

Whether or not you agree/disagree with the decision, to embarrass the gold men II skater for his decision publicly on this board is unacceptable. Please keep this in mind if anyone intends to post in regard to this.

Laura Fawcett
Director of Online Services
U.S. Figure Skating

[Kristin]

Hi all,

I don't know how many of you read the discussion forums on USFSA, but I just posted Laura Fawcett's response to skateguard's post regarding the Gold 2 men (She had posted the same thing on USFSA). I thought it may help everyone understand where the USFSA actually stands on this issue.

Thanks,
Kristin

[Mrs Redboots]

At some competitions over on this side of the Atlantic, what happens is that they hold the class, even though there is only one competitor, but the skater (or skaters, if it's a couple or pair) warms up with the skaters in the next or preceding age group, and competes alongside them, but the result is kept separate. Seems to work....

And friends of mine are competing in a qualifier for the British Adult Championships at the end of next week, and they are the only couple in their class, but because it's a qualifier, they will have to skate anyway. We would give them a run for their money (not! They invariably just beat us, usually by one point!), but of course we'll be visiting you lot!

[skaternum]

Adult Nationals is already too big, with a chronic squeeze for ice time. The refs never hold exhibitions/critiques for a single entrant in an event. A smaller or local comp can get away with it, but there's just no way that's ever gonna happen at AN.