US Adult NATIONALS - schedule [Archive]

Debbie S

03-12-2005, 10:03 PM

You mean that there's no Bronze I qual round? I don't believe it. Then again, after last year, I'm not surprised....

Yeah, I thought the same thing. My first thought was that I must have missed the qual rounds on the schedule, so I looked through it again. I guess it's a combination of Kansas City not being the most exotic place (no offense to those from the area!) and last year's AN being so well-attended (due to the popular Lake Placid locale). Too bad I didn't start skating a year earlier - right now, I'm working on my Bronze tests with the hope of passing them by the end of the year.

Hey Mel on Ice, you made the finals your first year at AN! Not too shabby. :)

Edited to add: Hey NoVa, what are you doing up? You've got a comp tomorrow - get to bed! :)

SkateGuard

03-12-2005, 10:10 PM

But LP wasn't very well attended (for Bronze I). We had more in Ann Arbor in 2003...and there were 72 in 2000. Now there's 18 or less. We'll have to see if that's an oversight or something, but if not Mel on Ice will never hear the end of this.... ;)

skaternum

03-13-2005, 06:51 AM

FrankR

03-13-2005, 08:11 AM

Hello all,

Looking through the schedule I noticed that they combined Bronze Men 1 and Bronze Men 2 into one event. Last year there were only two of us in Bronze Men 1 and they still kept the event separate. Bronze Men 2 was pretty well populated last year so I'm assuming that's the case this year as well. Does that mean only one person signed up for Bronze Men 1?

Hey Stephen, I was also shocked that there was no qualifying round for Silver Men 1. ;) Do we have any idea who else is doing this event besides the two of us?

Take care,

Frank

sk8er1964

03-13-2005, 10:44 AM

No QR for Gold II!!!!! Yeah!!!!! This means I don't have to leave for KC on hubbie's birthday :D !

LoopLoop

03-13-2005, 10:59 AM

It figures, my singles event (Silver II) is the only one with three qualifying groups. The last time I went to AN, in 2001, I was in Bronze I and there were four groups.

SkateGuard

03-13-2005, 12:32 PM

What was the skating like in Bronze I last year? (I can't remember.) Were there lots of returning/aged up skaters? If so, that might be intimidating to the "true" Bronze (started as adult) skaters. Just a guess?

Bronze I was a mess of abilities last year, from people who had a sal, toe, and sometimes loop, to a girl who had a full diagonal footwork sequence, complete with rockers, counters, and choctaws. (She had entered Champ Dance at Mids but withdrew, but she also medalled in pre-Gold dance.)

Yes, skating against such strong skaters can be intimidating....I wonder how many people are sitting at home, waiting to spend the $$ for when they are "competitive." I'll be in the middle of the pack with camel/sit/back sit, loop-toe-loop, lutz-loop, sit, flip, waltz-tap toe-sal-toe, forward scratch with arms over head. That's a bit above the test level, isn't it?

Add in the fact that KC isn't exactly the mecca of fun for the 25-35 y.o. crowd, and it's not surprising (especially since 99% of us don't have CEO salaries quite yet :D ) that the numbers are down.

However, this topic (Bronze I at Lake Placid) has been discussed ad nauseaum, so you can probably go to archives and find out what happened.

I am now wondering how many Bronze I's there would be if AN's were in Vegas.... :P

TimDavidSkate

03-13-2005, 12:41 PM

NoVa Sk8r

03-13-2005, 01:25 PM

Edited to add: Hey NoVa, what are you doing up? You've got a comp tomorrow - get to bed! :)Haha. I ended up going to bed at 12:30ish, then awoke at 3:30, again at 5:30, then finally at 6:30am. Considering the competition results, the lack of sleep didn't affect my performance--in fact, I think it helped ... it's hard to overanalyze/overthink when you can barely keep your eyes open! 8-)

NoVa Sk8r

03-13-2005, 01:28 PM

Hey Stephen, I was also shocked that there was no qualifying round for Silver Men 1. ;) Do we have any idea who else is doing this event besides the two of us?Haha. Yes, it's very daunting when we proceed directly to the final round. I think there might be 4 or 5 of us? You, me, and the first and third place finishers at Eastern sectionals. I think there was a silver I in Pacifics, so he might also join us. Being in a group of 5 at nationals and coming in 5th is not fun: That's one off from medaling! (I know, I know, big eye roll, and wah! since the ladies have gazillions of entrants.)

FrankR

03-13-2005, 02:36 PM

Haha. Yes, it's very daunting when we proceed directly to the final round. I think there might be 4 or 5 of us? You, me, and the first and third place finishers at Eastern sectionals. I think there was a silver I in Pacifics, so he might also join us. Being in a group of 5 at nationals and coming in 5th is not fun: That's one off from medaling! (I know, I know, big eye roll, and wah! since the ladies have gazillions of entrants.)

Hey there,

That sounds about right. Last year there were four guys in Silver 1. If it turns out that there are five of us then that would be the largest group in which I would have skated. I've skated by myself in one event (exhibition) and as many as four in a couple of other events but never more than that. I've always felt odd at how few of us guys skate at the Class 1 age category in comparison to the ladies. I think if I had to skate in a giant qualifying group just to get to the final I'd be a nervous wreck. :P

Frank

NoVa Sk8r

03-13-2005, 02:53 PM

That sounds about right. Last year there were four guys in Silver 1. If it turns out that there are five of us then that would be the largest group in which I would have skated. I've skated by myself in one event (exhibition) and as many as four in a couple of other events but never more than that. I've always felt odd at how few of us guys skate at the Class 1 age category in comparison to the ladies. I think if I had to skate in a giant qualifying group just to get to the final I'd be a nervous wreck. :P

FrankWatch it ... Loops is always throwing daggers at me over how many skaters she is up against and how "easy" I have it. (Whatever! :P ) What's nice about the DC area is that there are usually 4-5 silver men in any event. And at last year's Halloween Classic near Philly, there were 7 silver men.

PattyP

03-14-2005, 09:36 PM

Oh sure...now they post it. I thought I would have to skate QR for Gold II on Wednesday so I booked my flight, room, car for Monday, now I find out that I don't skate until Friday! I guess that I can say that I already made Final round ;) :D :D

flo

03-15-2005, 11:25 AM

I'll be in that Silver II group with you loops. Not expecting much, as I still don't have my skates!!!!!

nja

03-15-2005, 01:25 PM

Hmmm, no Gold Dance Final Round listed. I know that's not right! I'm guessing it should be following the Pre-Gold Dance FR on Friday night. I think that is how they have done it the last few years. Hopefully they will have the final schedule up soon!

Michigansk8er

03-15-2005, 07:26 PM

No QR for Gold II!!!!! Yeah!!!!! This means I don't have to leave for KC on hubbie's birthday :D !

And we can save the hotel money for more important things like beer and chocolate!!!!!

sk8er1964

03-15-2005, 09:17 PM

And we can save the hotel money for more important things like beer and chocolate!!!!!

You're my kind of friend! 8-)

sk8er1964

03-15-2005, 09:18 PM

Mrs Redboots

03-16-2005, 08:43 AM

Well, we'll miss all the Wednesday events thanks to our own Opens which don't finish until Tuesday. I just hope we get there on the Thursday in time to see Michigansk8er's interpretive, since I want to pinch all her ideas for my own.... Oh blast! I see we miss the Ladies' Interpretive IV - we are due to arrive at the airport at 16.45, but we ought to at least check in with our friends rather than go straight to the rink! Major, major bummer..... still, we'll doubtless see Dottie's interp at the Mountain Cup....

Longing to see all my old friends, and to meet some of you face to face for the first time! And, I hope, to dance with some of the dancers on the Sunday morning.

PattyP

03-16-2005, 09:57 AM

We have got to make sure we meet at AN! Maybe at the official practice ice, if nothing else.

Definitely! I'll be there practicing all week :roll: I've decided not to change my flight. When do you arrive?

skaternum

03-16-2005, 09:58 AM

Didn't we sort of decide to have a skatingforums dinner at Jack Stack on Friday night? Or am I just dreaming??

sk8er1964

03-16-2005, 01:09 PM

Definitely! I'll be there practicing all week :roll: I've decided not to change my flight. When do you arrive?

Michigansk8er and I are driving down. We haven't decided yet - possibly Tuesday night, possibly Wednesday morning. We'd like to see some of our friends who have to do the qualifing rounds skate.

CanAmSk8ter

03-16-2005, 04:16 PM

And we can save the hotel money for more important things like beer and chocolate!!!!!

Man, I can't wait to compete at AN. I was just looking forward to the skating- I didn't realize it also involved chocolate and booze!

PattyP

03-16-2005, 05:46 PM

Man, I can't wait to compete at AN. I was just looking forward to the skating- I didn't realize it also involved chocolate and booze!

Cabernet and Zinfandel are always served in my room!!

doubletoe

03-16-2005, 06:03 PM

It figures, my singles event (Silver II) is the only one with three qualifying groups. The last time I went to AN, in 2001, I was in Bronze I and there were four groups.

Yep! Everyone got older and went from Bronze to Silver at the same time! We will never get away from this big group we're stuck in! Then again, we're lucky to actually have enough competitors to feel like it's worth the time and money to travel all the way to KC for a "big" competition. Just think, 3 qualifying groups is what the kids get in just a *local* competition! At least we can get an idea of what it's like. :)

doubletoe

03-16-2005, 06:10 PM

Haha. Yes, it's very daunting when we proceed directly to the final round. I think there might be 4 or 5 of us? You, me, and the first and third place finishers at Eastern sectionals. I think there was a silver I in Pacifics, so he might also join us. Being in a group of 5 at nationals and coming in 5th is not fun: That's one off from medaling! (I know, I know, big eye roll, and wah! since the ladies have gazillions of entrants.)

I personally think the men and women should be allowed to compete against each other, at least up to Silver level. I've never seen that the men have any advantage over the women at Silver or below. If anything, they have a disadvantage in that they are usually less limber and are not as comfortable being "graceful" (years of conditioning from macho peers!). At Gold, men start to have an advantage with the jumps, since they tend to have stronger legs and core muscles, but that's about it.

daisies

03-16-2005, 06:39 PM

I personally think the men and women should be allowed to compete against each other, at least up to Silver level. I've never seen that the men have any advantage over the women at Silver or below.
As a judge, it is really hard to judge men and women together. It's like apples and oranges ... kinda like judging dramatic and light-entertainment interps together. LOL!!!

NoVa Sk8r

03-16-2005, 06:41 PM

I personally think the men and women should be allowed to compete against each other, at least up to Silver level. I've never seen that the men have any advantage over the women at Silver or below. If anything, they have a disadvantage in that they are usually less limber and are not as comfortable being "graceful" (years of conditioning from macho peers!). At Gold, men start to have an advantage with the jumps, since they tend to have stronger legs and core muscles, but that's about it.Very true. Has anyone been in a competition where the men and women were combined (is that even allowed?).
Well, this bloke is quite flexible, so I'm not intimidated on that front. 8-)

I just think the styles for men and women are so different that it'd be hard to compare. Heck the range in styles among the men is oftentimes vast ...

Michigansk8er

03-16-2005, 06:59 PM

[QUOTE=Mrs Redboots] I just hope we get there on the Thursday in time to see Michigansk8er's interpretive, since I want to pinch all her ideas for my own.... [QUOTE]

If you aren't, I'll give you the dry land version. It's bound to be a heck of a lot better...........considering the way things are going at the moment. :roll: :lol: :roll: :lol:

Figureskates

03-16-2005, 07:03 PM

What I liked about the Nationals at Lake Placid was volunteering in the morning, watching the competitions in the afternoon and early evening and spending the night at the Lake Placid Brewpub, staring at glasses of tasty Frostbite Ale.........

Sounds like my regiment at Adult Week every August.

Have a blast this year at KC guys.

flo

03-17-2005, 09:18 AM

I've been in events where the men and ladies were combined. One of my male friends and I ended up competing with eachother, so we bet a dinner!
I was even at one event where a womanwho entered a gold event got lost on the way and missed her event, so they put her in with us at silver. We were all ok with it, and she got to skate.
BTW - din din was delicious! ;)

FrankR

03-17-2005, 09:31 AM

Very true. Has anyone been in a competition where the men and women were combined (is that even allowed?).
Well, this bloke is quite flexible, so I'm not intimidated on that front. 8-)

I just think the styles for men and women are so different that it'd be hard to compare. Heck the range in styles among the men is oftentimes vast ...

Hey there,

I skated an event a couple of years ago where I was the only male entrant in Bronze Free. So they added me to the group of three ladies who signed up for Bronze as well. I came in second, actually. The lady that placed first had a great skate and had wonderful ice coverage. I learned a lot from skating that event.

Frank

NoVa Sk8r

03-17-2005, 09:37 AM

Hey there,

I skated an event a couple of years ago where I was the only male entrant in Bronze Free. So they added me to the group of three ladies who signed up for Bronze as well. I came in second, actually. The lady that placed first had a great skate and had wonderful ice coverage. I learned a lot from skating that event.Cool. The reason I asked was because in 2003, I entered 3 competitions at the silver level (I was officially bronze, but I was skating up). I was the only male entrant, and bronze/silver ladies events were offered. I had wondered if the organizers would group me with those events, but that option was never offered.

phillyskater

03-17-2005, 10:34 AM

You mean that there's no Bronze I qual round? I don't believe it. Then again, after last year, I'm not surprised....

As a Bronze I skater who competed at AN last year, I find this really disappointing. If anyone is on the Adult Skating Committee at U.S. Figure Skating, or has a contact who is, I would commend this to their attention. Bronze I should be one of the largest groups (assuming many adult skaters start skating in that age range, and I know that not all do). I find the drop in numbers over the past couple of years really troubling. If I physically could have skated this year, I would be really disappointed to have trained endlessly, and spent hundreds (probably more like $1000) to travel to KC to compete, only to have one round. It pretty much detracts from the whole point of a National competition, at least at that level where there are so many skaters out there.

I sincerely hope that Bronze skaters are not abandoning AN b/c of the sandbagging issue, which has already been discussed here and elsewhere (and was a HUGE problem in Bronze I last year, IMO). That would be very sad. Maybe it is the location the year, the economy, or some other nebulous issues. But I think it is worth US Figure Skating's attention to figure out where all the Bronze I ladies are. Without this group to have skaters to move up from, soon there will be fewer Bronze IIs, Silver I and IIs, etc.

Just my two (disappointed) cents. :cry:

philly

Mel On Ice

03-17-2005, 12:38 PM

Hey Mel on Ice, you made the finals your first year at AN! Not too shabby. :)

YAY! By default of course. I'm just holding out hope I get a flip between now and then and don't come in last. But if I do, it's last place with dignity.

Mel On Ice

03-17-2005, 12:41 PM

Yes, skating against such strong skaters can be intimidating....I wonder how many people are sitting at home, waiting to spend the $$ for when they are "competitive." I'll be in the middle of the pack with camel/sit/back sit, loop-toe-loop, lutz-loop, sit, flip, waltz-tap toe-sal-toe, forward scratch with arms over head. That's a bit above the test level, isn't it?

yikes, last with dignity it is...

Add in the fact that KC isn't exactly the mecca of fun for the 25-35 y.o. crowd, and it's not surprising (especially since 99% of us don't have CEO salaries quite yet :D ) that the numbers are down.

hey now! the Tigers are playing the Royals!

I am now wondering how many Bronze I's there would be if AN's were in Vegas.... :P

ISI Adult Champs are there in September.

skaternum

03-17-2005, 12:53 PM

Not wanting to deal with sandbagging at bronze could be a plausible explanation for the drop in numbers for Bronze I. As much as we all espouse competing "only for ourselves" and for the "love of skating," the adult who started skating at 30 really doesn't enjoy competing against a 25 year old who skated preliminary. (The discrepency between test skills and competition skills in standard track is even greater than in the adult track.)

This is personal observations, because I haven't seen any numbers recently, but I've observed that there seem to be proportionally more returning adult skaters than adult start skaters. I wonder if the adult start skaters are getting discouraged and not competing or dropping out.

Other factors could include the possible bottlenecking that Swami Skaternum predicted would eventually happen because of the mandatory Moves. Maybe it's just taking adult starters longer to get into Bronze. I'd be interested in seeing the test numbers for last year and this year. How many took the Bronze moves? How many passed? BTW, I don't think the bottleneck is that obvious at Silver yet because (1) lots of us were already sitting at Silver (and sitting and sitting and sitting) bottlenecked there. We'll be competing here for years! :) And (2) I think there are a LOT more returning skaters who've passed pre-juv and juv, so they test up to and compete at Silver, not Bronze.

Maybe all the long-time Bronzers aged up into II, which still has 2 qualifying groups.

Maybe there are just fewer new skaters entering the sport between the ages of 25 and 35. I've noticed a definite decrease in attendance at Learn-To-Skate classes at the rinks where I skate. If there aren't any adults to feed out of skate school and into the adult testing structure...

And maybe it's just a fluke. I don't compete at AN every year. In fact, I didn't compete a singles freeskate at all this year. Maybe everyone else wanted to take the year off too. (Maybe I'm a trendsetter!)

coskater64

03-17-2005, 01:28 PM

It would seem to be a combination of things, the economy is really poor and skating is an expensive an addictive habit. Many gold skaters didn't skate and mids and usually the cause was cash flow, it just takes so much in the way of time and $$. There were 6 or 7 bronze 1 ladies at mids, a decent number and a good group. It might also be that a lot of skaters are coming back to the sport and like myself, I passed juv so it took a year to retake tests, and get to the correct level, which was silver. I would have loved to skate bronze, my favorite program I ever had was my bronze one. I don't think the USFSA can do anything, as the economy recovers hopefully the numbers will go up. All we can do as Adult skaters is let others know what a great sport it is and how fun the people are who skate.

Yeah!

la

Debbie S

03-17-2005, 02:33 PM

YAY! By default of course. I'm just holding out hope I get a flip between now and then and don't come in last. But if I do, it's last place with dignity.

Don't despair, many of us (including me) have been last place multiple times, always with dignity, of course (we won't discuss my wimpy spins at Skate Wilmington last year). :)

This is an interesting discussion. I think skaternum has a good point about the moves requirement. And I think the difficulty of the Pre-Bronze MIF test may also be a factor. Hopefully, the proposed changes will go through at GC and those dratted alternating 3's will be a thing of the past. Really, when you look at what's required in the Pre-Prelim MIF test vs. the Pre-Bronze MIF test, there's a big difference. The longer it takes adults to test through the adult structure, the longer it's going to take them to advance through the ranks and they may also become frustrated and simply decide not to test. Time and money for practice are also big issues. Most kids at my rink skate at least 3 or 4 days a week, at multiple sessions per day/night. There's no way I (or most adults) could skate that much - time is probably the key issue here for most of us. And then there is the money for lessons to get us up to passing level in both moves and freestyle. It's easy to see why it's either taking adult skaters a long time to move up or they decide to forgo testing altogether.

At the New Year's Invitational in D.C in early Feb, there were 7 (IIRC) Bronze II-IV ladies (combined group) and 3 Bronze I ladies (supposed to be 4 but there was a last-minute scratch). I remember last year at the same comp, there were at least 6 or 7 Bronze I ladies. Then again, that's about how many there were at the Winter Classic several weeks later and at the Halloween Classic in Oct. Maybe AN becomes a financial issue for a lot of people, plus there is the time off from work - I'm sure many skaters figure they'll save their vacation days for a real vacation and only do comps on weekends, near their home. How has attendance at the Peach Classic
(holiday weekend) been?

Edited to add that many adults who start group lessons within a rink's program aren't introduced to competing the way kids are. There are so many opportunities for even the most beginner kids to compete (Basic Skills comps) but that's not the case for adults. Yes, I know Basic Skills comps are open to everyone, but unless the rink gets enough adults to put them in an adult-only group, most adults aren't going to be comfortable competing against 7-year-olds. Plus, there are several different beginning freestyle levels for kids to compete in and at most adult comps, the lowest level is Pre-Bronze. HC is the only comp I've heard of that offered adult no-test in both CM and FS - I hope more adult comps will follow suit. And I would also suggest creating a low-level interp/showcase level (no-test, Pre-Bronze) for adults, too. The more adults enjoy competing from the beginning, the more likely they are to want to test up through the levels.

flo

03-17-2005, 03:01 PM

kisscid

03-17-2005, 03:22 PM

I am now wondering how many Bronze I's there would be if AN's were in Vegas.... :P
Me I would be there but only because it's with-in driving distance. I cannot afford to fly right now.
Cid

Michigansk8er

03-17-2005, 04:16 PM

The first time I competed in Bronze II at National's there were about 80 people in my group. I think much of the loss of numbers is due to the moves. Many skaters who say they competed because they enjoyed the experience are simply not enjoying the added burden of moves.

I was wondering the same thing today. I still remember GC the year the mandatory moves were passed. The then USFSA membership chair said that making the moves mandatory would do nothing for the growth of adult skating, and would possibly discourage it. He was the only one on stage supporting the adults that wanted the moves structure optional, as it was first introduced. I wonder if we are just starting to see the results of that decision?

phillyskater

03-17-2005, 04:27 PM

This has been a really interesting discussion - I appreciate everyone's input. Based on the ability levels I saw last year at Bronze I, I don't think passing the Pre-Bronze or Bronze MIF test was the problem (but I understand why it may take some new adults longer to get to Bronze at AN b/c of the MIF tests).

What I'm concerned about is the fact that from 2003 to 2004, and 2004 to 2005, it appears that AN lost about an entire qualifying group of Bronze I ladies each year. I know that some of these people test up to Silver and some move to Bronze II, but I still don't think that accounts for an entire qualifying group each year. I'd love to survey these ladies from 2003 and 2004 and find out what happened. If the age/test factor were the cause, you should see a big increase in Silver I's and Bronze II's, which doesn't seem to be the case. And I can tell you that there weren't 10 or more 35 year-olds in Bronze I last year.

Where, oh where, are the rest of us?

philly

jazzpants

03-17-2005, 05:47 PM

Well, FWIW, I'm not a Bronze lady because of BOTH the moves requirement and the economical factors. I haven't been able to get my moves to the point where I could pass my Bronze Moves test. (Those dreaded forward power 3's and alt. back crossovers are KILLIN' me!!!) :frus: My husband long unemployment and my losing jobs a couple of times (one time it was SIX MONTHS before I found a job!!!) certainly didn't do me any good either in terms of having continuous training either. I did the best I could at that time.

I competed as a pre-Bronze II for the first time last Oct. and I now skate about 4-5 times a week. However I skate for at least an hour...sometimes 1.5 hours. And I'm gonna try to skate as well as a kid that just passed prelim moves even if it KILLS me. :frus:

starskate6.0

03-17-2005, 05:57 PM

This is not realted with the conversation at hand However, I thought i would just let you all know that if you are within the driving distance of Ice Works PA, There is a lot of open ice as of late. I skated 3 sessions today and only 2 other skaters on the ice and I was alone on the last one.

If you have the time during the day, we have open ice all day long on the Olympic rink at $12 a session for 45 minutes. Ill have a better schedule for you in a day or 2 if you need practice ice. Also we have an adults session from 12 to 1pm on wednesday the 23rd and every wednesday there after if your interested in that.

Just thought id let you all know we have ice if your interested. Its not busy at the moment. :D

Terri C

03-17-2005, 08:04 PM

starskate6.0

03-17-2005, 08:12 PM

My biggest issue for not being at Bronze level is getting ice time!
It saddens me to know that there are 4 adult public sessions at various rinks in the DC area and you can do freestyle on them. We have 3 rinks in my area (Norfolk/ Virginia Beach) and there is no concept of adult sessions here! :cry: :evil:

Try getting a consistent freestyle schedule too- it hasn't happened in awhile, but ours was always changing! We don't have morning ice, either!

Sorry to hear of your situation, however if you should be up our way at any time you are more than welcome on our ice. Ill see you at Nationals :D
Come say Hello when you get a chance. see ya :D

Terri C

03-17-2005, 08:17 PM

Ill see you at Nationals :D

Uh, Ross unless there was a major changing of the rules, I won't be at AN, as I'm a Pre- Bronze competitor. Hey, maybe that's the way to get more numbers- to allow Pre Bronzers at AN, even if it's just in Interp! :idea:

Figureskates

03-17-2005, 08:28 PM

Let me toss in my 2 cents.

First of all, I have noticed a marked increase this year in new adults signing up for learn-to-skate classes. I think there are now at least 16 adults...I am still sadly the only male.

We have a couple of ladies who could easily compete Bronze and I have asked them if they ever considered it, they just laugh and said they aren't good enough. Even after I told them that I have been to AN and that they would do better than they think. It seems to me that there is this misconception that they will never be good enough to compete. They even find it strange when I tell them that I want to compete, even if it is only once (granted in would be Bronze IV). I don't know whether this feeling is country wide but it could go a long way to explain the lack of "new blood" in AN.

One of my co-workers, who was a state gymnast champion for two years, I introduced to figure skating last year. The second time on skates she did a spiral that would make many of you cry. Needless to say I am encouraging her to enroll in group lessons...I know she would love to compete.

kitkat

03-17-2005, 08:50 PM

I could be wrong because I was only in group classes back then but wasn't there like 5 groups of Bronze I in 2000 then 4 in 2001. Now there is only 1. It seems like a huge number of entrance fees and such used to come from Bronze I, but no longer.

I think moves may be a bit of an issue for newer adult skaters. However, I am almost certain that the big reason for drops in numbers is that horrible word - sandbagging.

I promise that there were skaters in Bronze I last year with the speed, flow, footwork, and height of jumps that were comparable to Gold and I would even go so far as to say masters skaters. Why shouldn't they have been this good though? Several of them had been skating for 15, 16 years... As long or longer than Sasha Cohen.

I think the word of this has definitely gotten out and newer skaters (who should be competing Bronze) do not want to compete against such high level skaters who everyone looks on in amazement as to why they are skating Bronze. I also know several skaters who kept hoping this issue of sandbagging would get better but instead it got worse so now they don't go to nationals.

It also seems that although the groups are randomly drawn they are often very uneven. So some weaker skaters do get in to finals, over some strongers skaters from other groups.

I know everyone should just love to skate, etc. But when paying a great deal of money to travel to an event advertized as Adult Bronze it should be just that.

SkateGuard

03-17-2005, 08:52 PM

What I'm concerned about is the fact that from 2003 to 2004, and 2004 to 2005, it appears that AN lost about an entire qualifying group of Bronze I ladies each year. I know that some of these people test up to Silver and some move to Bronze II, but I still don't think that accounts for an entire qualifying group each year. I'd love to survey these ladies from 2003 and 2004 and find out what happened. If the age/test factor were the cause, you should see a big increase in Silver I's and Bronze II's, which doesn't seem to be the case. And I can tell you that there weren't 10 or more 35 year-olds in Bronze I last year.

Where, oh where, are the rest of us?

philly

I vote e) All of the above. I'm 30, going to my 3rd AN's in Bronze (would have gone in '02 if I was employed...)

Economy. The entry level job market is just horrid right now. Your average 22 y.o. is having trouble finding a decent paying job in their field. I think that a lot of twenty-somethings don't have the money to go through all the tests or pay for a competition. So I think adults are starting at 30 rather than 24.

Moves. I think the moves requirement is slowing progress of some and pulling others away from the AN's movement. Look, if you can't test until 25, there will be very few twentysomethings at AN's in bronze. I started skating at 22 and passed my bronze fs a month before my 27th birthday. And that was without moves, though I was working on solo dances and standard moves. I think a lot of skaters are skipping the class I because they're not ready (don't have the tests passed) until they're 35. Two of the new Bronze I's this year are 35 and will be II's next year....it just took that long to get through the process.

Travel. As convienent KC is for most people (in the center of the country), I's have limited funds, both in terms of time and money. As much as Mel on Ice wants to make KC sound like a fun place, I think to get the young crowd, location is key. Look, 50-60% of the Bronze I's are done by Thurs afternoon, but they have to take a week off of work. And what are they going to do in KC for two days (besides watch figure skating, of course)? If AN's were in Vegas, LA, Chicago, SF, Seattle, etc., I think we'd get more of the younger crowd.

Sandbagging. As it was discussed ad nauseaum already, I won't go into it, but I think a lot of bronzes went home thinking, "Well, if I'm going to spend half my vacation time and $1000 on a fun activity, I'd better be competitive." And so perhaps some new bronzes are staying at home rather than coming. I don't think this is the main reason, but I do think this is the deal-breaker. Especially if you started skating three or four years ago and have to compete against people who skated as kids...it can be quite discouraging. Now if you had gone just for the party (yes, Mel, there will be a party, of course....), then it would be great.

I think next year will be better, if only because AN's are in a mall. (You think I'm kidding....I saw the directory. Can we say, Nieman-Marcus Clearance Center? I'm bringing an empty suitcase!) Seriously, the I's grew up hanging out at the mall, so this will be attractive to that age group.

I think we still need to tweak the rules to encourage more young bronzes. One thing I would like to see is allowing testing at 21, competing at 25. That would give skaters some time to pass the moves/free tests so they can skate at AN's in their late 20s. Another thing I would like to see is a restriction of elements in bronze to move bronze skating closer to the test level. Finally, I think some of the "sandbagging" is due to the moves structure. I think the moves are too hard for the level...I know a lot of skaters who "would have" been skating a certain level, had they passed the moves on the first or second (or fifth) try. All in all, we have a lot of work to do, but I think we can make this situation better.

kitkat

03-17-2005, 09:04 PM

SkateGuard

03-17-2005, 09:39 PM

I disagree that a fun, more exciting location is the result of numbers dropping so drastically in Bronze I. Many Bronze I skaters I know are married, have kids, and don't exactly base where they go to compete based on its party atmosphere. There was still a good turn-out in Ann Arbor even though it was there two years in a row. I had much rather go to KC than Ann Arbor.

Not "fun, more exciting"...just a location with more options. For both single 20-somethings and the "married with kids" crowd. Remember that the majority of Bronze I's are done early...my first AN's, I was done by noon on Wednesday. Good thing we were staying with a friend's parents, and as such, had a list of things her mom wanted to do with us! :D

A big reason Ann Arbor is well attended is that it's pretty convienent (read: driveable) for the MI-OH-IL-MN crowd, which can be quite sizeable (Wyandotte is huge when they combine with Mids). Plus, DTW is a hub for Northwest, so you can get decent prices for flights. Also remember that Ann Arbor (2003) was the last year before the moves requirements, so we didn't have as many people being "held back" by those blasted bronze moves.

As for the economy...look, if you're 25 and didn't go to grad school, there were _no jobs_ three years ago. You were working at the Gap and living with your parents. So how were they going to find the time and $$ to skate? Yes, the economy is recovering, but it means that some of those YA skaters are just now getting set up with privates, starting testing, etc.

NoVa Sk8r

03-17-2005, 09:45 PM

I promise that there were skaters in Bronze I last year with the speed, flow, footwork, and height of jumps that were comparable to Gold and I would even go so far as to say masters skaters. Why shouldn't they have been this good though? Several of them had been skating for 15, 16 years... As long or longer than Sasha Cohen.You're kidding, right? I mean, you can't be serious. :??

Locally, I do see a bunch of new sakters in the pre-bonze/bronze fields--women and men.

And I know several people of different levels who have ZERO interest in going to Kansas (sorry, Sunflower State!).

kitkat

03-17-2005, 09:49 PM

Okay, points well-taken.

Edited to say this is meant for the last post of Skateguard.

NoVa Sk8r

03-17-2005, 09:54 PM

Uh, Ross unless there was a major changing of the rules, I won't be at AN, as I'm a Pre- Bronze competitor. Hey, maybe that's the way to get more numbers- to allow Pre Bronzers at AN, even if it's just in Interp! :idea:Well, you've been competing in bronze, so that should give you a boost of confidence for your freeskate test. I don't even know what is on the darn bronze MIF (and I'd venture to say I probably couldn't pass it -- but onward to gold MIF!).

And allowing pre-bronze events at nationals? ... Sorry, I don't see that EVER happening.

(Terri, please keep us informed about your mom ...)

kitkat

03-17-2005, 09:55 PM

No, I am not kidding. It is not that everyone is this good in Bronze I, it's just there are a lot of spots being taken up in finals by these types of skaters at nationals. Usually local comps are more fair and are a better representation of what most would expect to see in Bronze.

I really don't understand why no one likes Kansas.

NoVa Sk8r

03-17-2005, 10:04 PM

I really don't understand why no one likes Kansas.I think the East Coast snobbery may have a little to do with it. :??

Hmm, masters ladies hiding in/masquerading as bronze? ( :roll: ) I am definitely not gonna miss the bronze events at AN! :P

Debbie S

03-17-2005, 10:04 PM

Also remember that Ann Arbor (2003) was the last year before the moves requirements, so we didn't have as many people being "held back" by those blasted bronze moves.

I thought the moves requirement was instituted in Sept. '02, no?

The problem with having AN in big cities is that hotels are more expensive. Plus, no matter where AN is, a car rental is usually needed b/c the comp is rarely held in a rink serviced by public transit - aren't they usually out in the suburbs somewhere? For me, the decision to go to AN (if I was eligible, which I'm not yet) would be based on 1) if it was feasible to take time off from work and 2) if the city is easy to get to and get around in and how much I would have to pay for airline, hotel, transportation, etc. Since I'm on the east coast, obviously a location in that region would be more attractive than somewhere in the midwest. But then, the west coasters might be more likely to skip it. I guess there's never going to be a perfect location.

I agree with phillyskater - a survey of previous Bronze I entrants might be in order.

SkateGuard

03-17-2005, 10:30 PM

I thought the moves requirement was instituted in Sept. '02, no?

The problem with having AN in big cities is that hotels are more expensive. Plus, no matter where AN is, a car rental is usually needed b/c the comp is rarely held in a rink serviced by public transit - aren't they usually out in the suburbs somewhere? For me, the decision to go to AN (if I was eligible, which I'm not yet) would be based on 1) if it was feasible to take time off from work and 2) if the city is easy to get to and get around in and how much I would have to pay for airline, hotel, transportation, etc. Since I'm on the east coast, obviously a location in that region would be more attractive than somewhere in the midwest. But then, the west coasters might be more likely to skip it. I guess there's never going to be a perfect location.

I agree with phillyskater - a survey of previous Bronze I entrants might be in order.

You're right--there won't be a perfect location. Though Dallas might fit the bill. The rink is in a mall (with tons of stuff to do), and there are several suite-type hotels in the parking lot, so you really don't _need_ a car. You just have to get from the airport to the hotel, and lots of hotels will provide shuttles.

I can afford to go to ANs because I have done enough Midwestern comps to have a group of people to share cars, hotels, etc. Actually, a friend who is driving to KC is picking me up at the airport so that I don't have to rent a car. And I'm sharing a hotel room with an unknown amount of people. So AN's will be under $500, including hotel, airfare, and coaching fees. Not bad.

Plus, if you have frequent flyer miles, hotel stay points, etc., you can greatly reduce your expenses. With the traveling I'm doing for work, I might be able to swing both the airfare and the hotel for free next year....Guess who will be paying for the car rental.... :P

You're right about the moves--it was '02. However, 99% of the bronze I's at Ann Arbor in '03 were grandfathered out of that rule--they had passed their bronze fs test before the rule went into effect. Now most of those bronzes have moved/aged on....

Thin-Ice

03-18-2005, 03:25 AM

The West Coasters don't seem to skip AN. For those of you keeping track, there's always a big contingent from the West Coast no matter WHERE Adult Nationals is held... and traditionally, California is not considered a skate-state since it's not part of the culture we grow up in.

We have had exactly ONE A-N in the Pacific Time Zone.. in Oakland. And it had a fairly low turn-out compared to the other ANs... although the West Coast was once again well-represented. For the first 5-6 years, California had the largest turn-out... even topping Massachusetts or Michigan when we've had AN in those states. (I haven't been keeping track since then.. but they used to put it in the event program.)

1995 Delaware -- Eastern Time
1996 Lake Placid -- Eastern Time
1997 Lake Placid -- Eastern Time
1998 Oakland -- Pacific Time
1999 Ann Arbor -- Eastern Time
2000 Lake Placid -- Eastern Time
2001 Marlborough -- Eastern Time
2002 Ann Arbor -- Eastern Time
2003 Ann Arbor -- Eastern Time
2004 Lake Placid -- Eastern Time
2005 Overland Park -- CENTRAL Time
2006 Dallas -- CENTRAL Time

So while those of us on Pacific Time seem willing to travel -- the rest of the country seems disinterested in leaving the EARLIER Time Zones.. and remember, when we come East, our bodies think we are skating THREE hours earlier than the clock actually reads. So those 7am practices and 6am Official Warm-Ups are in the middle of the night for us. It also takes us longer (read more time off from work) and usually more money to travel there AND back -- and to make up for the huge time change, we have to come in early enough to give our bodies have half a chance to adjust.

Of course, there is always the joy of seeing the lovely rinks in the Eastern Time Zone and seeing our friends we would not see otherwise!!

skaternum

03-18-2005, 04:55 AM

2005 Dallas -- Eastern Time
Well this should surprise all the people who live in Dallas! :P

SkateGuard

03-18-2005, 06:35 AM

2005 Dallas -- Eastern Time

And Lori Osbourne and the KC crew. 2005 AN's are in KC, 2006 is in Dallas. Both are in the Central time zone.

Mrs Redboots

03-18-2005, 08:46 AM

I went to watch the Adult Nationals in 1998, and seem to remember that there were several qualifying groups of Bronze skaters at all ages. I think it may well be the Moves requirement that puts people off - here, although Moves are eventually compulsory, you move up if you have *any* part of the next level test, whether Moves, Elements or Free. (Or Long OR Short, if you're doing competitive tests, which we adults mostly aren't).

I think Figureskates has a good point. If the only skating competition you've ever seen is on television, you're not going to think yourself good enough! The first local competition I saw was a revelation to me - there were these adults going out there and having the time of their lives, making us all laugh (these were artistic/interpretive classes, but ten years ago I didn't know the difference, did I?), and their skating skills, although way above mine at that time, were achievable!

But I know a great many skaters in this country who won't go to our Adult Championships - too much like hard work! They want to skate for fun, probably to compete in local competitions and the various adult competitions, but they don't want to be restricted by NISA requirements (although that is happening to all skating now, not just championships, with the gradual introduction of the new judging system), or to have to qualify (dancers) or... well, I think many of them simply don't want to take it that seriously. Equally, those of us who fought tooth & nail to *get* Adult Championships go even when it makes for incredibly hard work. (The Mountain Cup is run under USFSA rules, no problem - but if we are to compete in this year's Adult Championships, it means that we have to prepare SIX compulsory dances - three of them really hard for us - and a Free Dance, all of which are to be competed in June, when the one and only qualifier for our Adult Championships is being held....).

Thin-Ice

03-18-2005, 08:47 AM

OK, OK -- you're right.. but check out the time that was written.. it was dark, it was late.. etc. :oops: Besides, I told you some of the Pacific Coasters have a hard time dealing with time changes!!! :giveup:

flo

03-18-2005, 09:27 AM

Spreadeagle

03-18-2005, 10:22 AM

However, I am almost certain that the big reason for drops in numbers is that horrible word - sandbagging.

I promise that there were skaters in Bronze I last year with the speed, flow, footwork, and height of jumps that were comparable to Gold and I would even go so far as to say masters skaters. Why shouldn't they have been this good though? Several of them had been skating for 15, 16 years... As long or longer than Sasha Cohen.

I think the word of this has definitely gotten out and newer skaters (who should be competing Bronze) do not want to compete against such high level skaters who everyone looks on in amazement as to why they are skating Bronze. I also know several skaters who kept hoping this issue of sandbagging would get better but instead it got worse so now they don't go to nationals.

I am sure that the word of the "sandbagging issue" has gotten out. However, perhaps it's discouraging Bronze 1 skaters not because they want to compete only if they will be competitive, but because they think they will be accused of being a sandbagger! If it's true that there are constant comments in the stands about sandbaggers and people like you and skaters you know think it's such an issue, who would even want to compete in Bronze 1, much less win? It seems that it's pretty much a guarantee that the top skaters in Bronze are going to be accused of sandbagging--it's happened for the last few years. Why would you want to set yourself up for accusations and bad-mouthing?

The main reasons that I'm not going to KC are time and money--I just don't have enough of either this year. No one from my club or any of my coach's other students were going, so I would be on my own which would also up the cost. Plus, Kansas City is just not a very enticing location to me. But, having seen all the negativity and sour grapes related to this whole sandbagging nonsense is also a little bit of a turnoff. There's always going to be someone better than you in some way, but also you will be better than others in other ways.

Raine

03-18-2005, 11:23 AM

I think the East Coast snobbery may have a little to do with it. :??

For this East Coaster, the Kansas location was a selling point. I've never been to this part of the country, so it'll be a treat in itself. :) Plus it's cheap to fly there, and the hotel rates are reasonable.

Cue the munchkins: Kansas she says is the name of the star...

Cheers,
Raine

phillyskater

03-18-2005, 12:53 PM

Does anyone know if the numbers overall for Nationals are down this year? If that's true, it can probably be attributed to the economic/location/testing requirements that have already been discussed. If the the decline is something that is unique to (or more exagerated in) the Bronze I group, then something else must be going on as well.

As for the sandbagging issue last year, I would say that those ladies would have been very succesful (i.e., probably on the podium) at Silver and could have competed at Gold (based on the elements we saw). Masters would be a bit of a stretch, IMO. But believe me, one or two had no business being at Bronze.

ANYWAY, good luck to all of you who are making the trip this year. I'll be with you in spirit (and in presence...with a tiny new Skating Forums member) is Dallas.

philly

Debbie S

03-18-2005, 03:07 PM

I'll be with you in spirit (and in presence...with a tiny new Skating Forums member) is Dallas.

philly

Congrats, philly! Will you and our new forum member be at HC in Oct?

I may be in Bronze I by the fall (as opposed to Pre-Bronze I), and believe me, no one will accuse me of sandbagging. :halo: :)

phillyskater

03-18-2005, 03:50 PM

Congrats, philly! Will you and our new forum member be at HC in Oct?

I may be in Bronze I by the fall (as opposed to Pre-Bronze I), and believe me, no one will accuse me of sandbagging. :halo: :)

Yep - we'll both be there, working registration again and running the event behind the scenes. But I'll certainly take a break to come watch your Bronze debut! Go for it!!

philly

caolaidhe

03-18-2005, 07:00 PM

(I hope this isn't a double post - I got dumped out of the system just when I tried to send last time!)

As for the sandbagging issue last year, I would say that those ladies would have been very succesful (i.e., probably on the podium) at Silver and could have competed at Gold (based on the elements we saw). Masters would be a bit of a stretch, IMO. But believe me, one or two had no business being at Bronze.
philly

I mostly lurk here, but I feel the need to comment on this...

Two of the top four finishers from Bronze I last year happen to be from my general area. I wasn't at AN last year, but I'm pretty sure I've seenboth of them skate in local competitions within the last year, at the silver level. (I *know* I've seen the top finisher - she was competing in Silver I at Mids.) Now, both of these ladies are lovely skaters, but they are not winning at Silver in these local comps (at least the ones that I was at!). For instance, at Mids, the top Bronze I finisher from last year came in 3rd out of a group of 5 in Silver I. So to me it seems perhaps a bit exaggerated to say that they would have placed in Silver or been competitive in Gold at AN last year. Again, I wasn't there - maybe these ladies had the performances of their lives and were just awesome beyond all belief! But from what I've seen, they would have been at the top level of competitors for Bronze, and now are mid-level Silvers. That doesn't seem quite so out of line to me.

manleywoman

03-18-2005, 09:54 PM

Well, as far as I'm concerned, I go to Nationals wherever it's held, because it's NATIONALS. It's important enough for me to travel to wherever it is. And luckily since I'm my own boss and have no kids, it's easy for me to go.

kar5162

03-18-2005, 11:13 PM

As a 27 year old who will be competing at my first nationals (silver I) in Kansas, I think the decline in Bronze/Silver I skaters is probably a combination of a lot of factors mentioned above.

The economy has been pretty tough the past years, particularly for people right out of school. Adding the moves to the test structure was an extra hurdle for people to jump through. I tried to make it my first year, but, with having a late birthday, I just didn't have enough time to pass through 4-6 tests by the deadline.

AN is also expensive. It's a pretty big expense to fly, rent a car, and rent a hotel room for a few days, (and way more if you choose to bring your coach) not to mention, especially for younger people, you're probably using a significant amount of your vacation time...to go to Kansas? I'm sure Kansas has it's cool points, but with usually only two weeks off a year, I'd think most 20s or so probably aren't interested in going to Kansas. The scheduling also sucks for people who don't want to necessarily experience all of Nationals. I'm scheduled for Wednesday, so will have to leave work early to fly down Tuesday due to flight options, and at least some from my group will skate again Friday. I know the kids do this for regionals, but, I'm not a "serious competitor" or hoping to make it to the Olympics one day and frankly, am not interested in spending 3.5 vacation days in Kansas plus paying for air, car and hotel for 4 days/nights. If I didn't have family that I'm going to visit in St. Louis on Wednesday after I'm done skating, I doubt I would be going this year either. I'm sure the experience will be fantastic, but if it wasn't for my fam, I'd just have done Easterns and skipped AN again.

Now Vegas I'd definitely be up for :D. Maybe next year.

kim

jazzpants

03-19-2005, 01:37 AM

Now Vegas I'd definitely be up for :D. Maybe next year.Well, next year is Dallas! You like shopping malls and cowboys??? :lol:

I'm hoping to go to Dallas, since my husband's ex-boss is there and I know my husband would want to go to AN with me and visit his ex-boss at the same time. His ex-boss probably knows all the hot spots to have dinner at too! :twisted:

I was hoping for San Jose in 2007, but I'm be hard pressed to have it there given what I've heard of the politics going on with the larger skating club for that rink. I'm just hoping for a West Coast rink in 2007, but my guess would be that it's gonna be at Lake Placid again! :P (Not that there's anything wrong with that...I've never been there! Gotta see what all the hoopla is about with Lake Placid.) ;)

Mrs Redboots

03-19-2005, 05:07 AM

For this East Coaster, the Kansas location was a selling point. And for this Brit! Actually, there were three good reasons for us to come and see you all this year:

It's Adult Nationals, and there are some friends I've not seen since 1998, and a whole load more I haven't met yet, as well as those we know and love from the Mountain Cup.
We have dear friends in Overland Park, Ks, and we get to stay with them and see them, too.
Husband's Head Office is in Overland Park, and although we haven't been able to persuade them to pay his fare :(, he will certainly pop in and touch base with his contacts there.

SkateGuard

03-19-2005, 07:30 PM

Two of the top four finishers from Bronze I last year happen to be from my general area. I wasn't at AN last year, but I'm pretty sure I've seenboth of them skate in local competitions within the last year, at the silver level. (I *know* I've seen the top finisher - she was competing in Silver I at Mids.) Now, both of these ladies are lovely skaters, but they are not winning at Silver in these local comps (at least the ones that I was at!). For instance, at Mids, the top Bronze I finisher from last year came in 3rd out of a group of 5 in Silver I. So to me it seems perhaps a bit exaggerated to say that they would have placed in Silver or been competitive in Gold at AN last year. Again, I wasn't there - maybe these ladies had the performances of their lives and were just awesome beyond all belief! But from what I've seen, they would have been at the top level of competitors for Bronze, and now are mid-level Silvers. That doesn't seem quite so out of line to me.

The girl you mention had a solid Silver I program--she just tuckered out at the end (something about winning a medal at Synchro Nats :) ) Plus, their synchro team has been putting extra hours in, taking away from their freestyle training, so I wouldn't use this year to compare last year's skates. I have the dvd from the group last year, and they were wonderful, probably the best they could have skated. I went home and based my program on theirs...

My issue with last year is the idea of being a high moves/dance tester and a Bronze freestyler. If you pass the Gold/Intermediate moves, you shouldn't be allowed to skate Bronze. And if you're on your Silver (or pre-Silver) dances, you're forced to skate Masters Interp because your basic skating quality is high. That is a factor when for Bronze, most of the elements are fairly similar in quality. My issue is rules, not people.

coskater64

03-19-2005, 08:54 PM

I think it is silver dance or pre-gold that requires skating up to masters in the interp. I also saw the Bronze I group last year and the winner of that group skated at mids recently. She did fine she came in 3rd in Silver I, she was an exceptionally strong Bronze and has just passed to her Nov moves, not at all uncommon for silver. She will probably do fine now that she has had time to rest from synchro. She is a very solid skater and a very nice young woman, the other skater from Bronze I who came in 4th last year is also a very good dancer and I have not seen her freeskate this year so I can't say anything. But I do have a friend who skates Bronze I and is on her interemediate/gold moves as she does both tracks and she is a very solid bronze.

The important thing to remember is that its more the skate than the position. If I were to land both different doubles in my program I wouldn't care how I placed I would just be thrilled to have finally managed that one thing. Having started in Silver it wasn't easy but, I did the best I could and that was what really mattered in the end.

la :D

SkateGuard

03-19-2005, 09:41 PM

The important thing to remember is that its more the skate than the position. If I were to land both different doubles in my program I wouldn't care how I placed I would just be thrilled to have finally managed that one thing. Having started in Silver it wasn't easy but, I did the best I could and that was what really mattered in the end.

la :D

I can't agree more. I had a blast at mids, even though I finished last in fs. I skated the best I've skated in two years, when I first got sick and lost 20 lbs. (I'm 5'4", 115, so 20 lbs is _a lot_.)

I was trying to explain to my dance partner how much he has accomplished. We've been skating for about the same amount of time, but he's qualified in Champ Gold Men, while I'm quagmired in Bronze. I have four more years of dance experience than he does, so he gets discouraged when we skate together. However, we're well matched, we have complementary personalities, and considering he went from nothing to Gold in five years, he's more talented than he thinks he is! :)

My concerns with Bronze is how far the competitive level has deviated from the test level. I do fear, like philly is trying to say, that we are losing numbers because new Bronzes do not feel competitive, or feel that they are competing to not finish last. I mean, I finished last at Mids...I had camel/sit/back sit, lutz/toe/loop out of back spiral, flip, loop/toe/loop, scratch with arms over head......if that was last place, how would someone who just passed the bronze free on a lucky loop feel in that group?

Just food for thought. Like I've said before, in the Bronze level, there should be more constraints to keep the skating from deviating too far from the test level. And flying camels have no business in Bronze--it's just too advanced a maneuver for the level. I can just picture test level bronzes cracking open chins trying to learn them "just to be competitive." Bronzes are still beginning skaters.....

kitkat

03-19-2005, 09:49 PM

Skateguard thank you for saying it is the rules not the skaters. You are so right. This really occurred to me today. And I was going to start a separate thread for this. But since you have already mentioned it, I will post here. I am really, really, really, really, really, sorry for ever posting anything that made it sound like I was blaming the skaters for the uneven skills in Bronze I. I agree with others that last years winner in Bronze seemed like a super nice person. And it really occurred to me that very few skaters intentionally skate Bronze knowing that they are far superior to the field.

I am not totally even sure if I know the correct definition of sandbagging. I know someone who only considers sandbagging to be when a gold medalist returns and competes in the same level. I thought it meant something else. If this is what it means. Then you really don't see a lot of returning medalists in Bronze.

I also think that the word sandbagging is easy to throw out at Bronze skaters because the level at least at competition so closely resembles the next level -Silver. To be competitive in Bronze you need everything a competitive Silver skater needs. Yes, it helps to have an Axel in Silver, but a lot of successful Silver skaters place very, very well without an Axel. So it is easy to see a good Bronze skater and say why doesn't he/she just skate Silver.

So really I am certain that in most instances it is the rules. A level that allows for anything other than an Axel and Doubles is a bit of wide stretch for an adult level. For kids it may work better as they would have all been skating for around the same number of years and be close to the same age. For adults it really does leave things wide open. There is a big difference in someone who has a huge Lutz loop combo and someone who can sometimes do a tiny loop. As long as a skater performs only single jumps anything else goes. Combination spins that could be as good as a Senior skater while another Bronze skater may only be able to perform a three-rev sit spin. Flying spins are also allowed. And senior level moves and footwork could also be seen in Bronze without breaking any rules. While some Bronze skaters my be barely able to eek out freestyle four footwork.

So, yes, I am very sorry if anything if I have every written sounds negative toward any skaters. I think that it is not the skaters, it is the rules that allow for too wide of a gap.

Many of last year's Bronze skaters are truly talented and have a lot to be proud of! I never meant to say anything that detracts from that. If any of you are out there, then you are truly gorgeous skaters.

SkateGuard

03-20-2005, 01:54 PM

So really I am certain that in most instances it is the rules. A level that allows for anything other than an Axel and Doubles is a bit of wide stretch for an adult level. For kids it may work better as they would have all been skating for around the same number of years and be close to the same age. For adults it really does leave things wide open. There is a big difference in someone who has a huge Lutz loop combo and someone who can sometimes do a tiny loop. As long as a skater performs only single jumps anything else goes. Combination spins that could be as good as a Senior skater while another Bronze skater may only be able to perform a three-rev sit spin. Flying spins are also allowed. And senior level moves and footwork could also be seen in Bronze without breaking any rules. While some Bronze skaters my be barely able to eek out freestyle four footwork.

First, I am formally starting to pursue rule changes that would accomodate all levels in bronze without putting anyone at a disadvantage. There might be a time when higher level bronzes will be told to stay home, but in time, they will be motivated to test higher so they can participate. (I really hate seeing high level spins and moves in bronze--I'm just waiting for the day that someone gets seriously hurt trying something they have no business doing, just because they want to be competitive.)

Second, we can monitor themselves. The top two skaters in Bronze I at Mids were really strong silver level skaters. I congratulated both of them--before the judges had even finished judging the event--and told them that they are ready to move up to silver. They were so flattered that I would say nice things about them, and they are both planning to be silvers by their first AN's. I think that's good news for everyone involved.

Finally, we have to keep coaches and other skaters informed about the nature of adult skating. There are a lot of adult coaches who keep their skaters at a lower level because that's what they do with their kid skaters. (Remember, you have to have doubles to be competitive in _preliminary_.) When we hear that philosophy in adult skating, we need to gently remind people that we are not going to the Olympics and that we can afford to stay closer to the test levels.

It's not something that will happen overnight, but I think if we all focus on the important thing--that the adult skating movement has to win, not this skater or that skater--we can work this out.

NoVa Sk8r

03-20-2005, 02:14 PM

First, I am formally starting to pursue rule changes that would accomodate all levels in bronze without putting anyone at a disadvantage. There might be a time when higher level bronzes will be told to stay home, but in time, they will be motivated to test higher so they can participate. (I really hate seeing high level spins and moves in bronze--I'm just waiting for the day that someone gets seriously hurt trying something they have no business doing, just because they want to be competitive.)First, I must say, "Oh, brother!" and then I should add: :roll:
Sounds like a case of sour grapes to me. (And I don't mean to single you out, it's just that your post left a bad taste in my mouth.) However, I do agree that if anything should be changed to level the playing field, then the rules should be written such that no flying spins are allowed or no lutz is allowed in bronze. But I'd like to point out that the bronze program is 1:40; that's not a lot of time to get in a lot of elements. Since the only difference between bronze and silver (beside the axel, which a lot of silver skaters don't have) is the extra 30 seconds, maybe this is intended for the silver skater to develop more choreography and to have a more developed program?

"I'm just waiting for the day that someone gets seriously hurt."
Wow, that's a really nice thing to wish on someone. :evil:
In my experience, the judges reward basic elements performed cleanly. So if some bronze skater wants to try a, say, death drop, power to that skater. But I'm guessing that, at the bronze level, it won't be performed very well. I've seen a few competitions where, in the land of lutzes, a skater with no more than a loop jump has won simply because that skater's speed, flow, choreography, and/or expression were superior. It can and does happen that the best skater "on paper" does not win.

And ya know, I hate being in silver level without an axel--especially headed to nationals; I feel like I have no chance of winning. But you know what, that just forces me to work harder. And if I can't have an axel, then I can work on something else, like interesting footwork into jumps and more speed and positions in my spins. Very few people are talented in all areas of skating, so if I am deficient in one area, then I can focus on something else.

And aren't we talking about Adult Nationals? One should expect that the top-level skaters will be competing, and that everyone will be bringing their A game. If you're in, say, bronze and don't have a lutz, combo spin, good/decent spins, or good footwork, well you need to work harder simply because the top skaters in this level will certainly have these elements. I say this because this applies to me in silver as well!

SkateGuard

03-20-2005, 02:50 PM

But I'd like to point out that the bronze program is 1:40; that's not a lot of time to get in a lot of elements. Since the only difference between bronze and silver (beside the axel, which a lot of silver skaters don't have) is the extra 30 seconds, maybe this is intended for the silver skater to develop more choreography and to have a more developed program?

Yes. The Silver moves test is also supposed to do that. But listen to this element list:

camel/sit/back sit
footwork from the center of hockey circle to hockey circle
loop-toe-loop
spiral sequence across entire ice surface into lutz-loop
sitspin
footwork w/stag flip
flip
power 3's
waltz jump-tap toe-salchow-toe loop
scratch spin with arms over head

That's my program. I don't want to medal at AN's, I just want to skate well. I don't train 20 hrs/week, (more like 5 or 6...I'm a flying commuter, too). Yes, that's in 1:40. I'm starting to plan my silver test program, and I now have more time for choreography, finishing moves, etc....things you expect more in silver than bronze. BTW, as I've said before, this was good enough for LAST place at Mids. The level playing field I'm going for is so that people don't go to comps like Mids and get "scared off" from doing AN's.

"I'm just waiting for the day that someone gets seriously hurt."
Wow, that's a really nice thing to wish on someone. :evil:
In my experience, the judges reward basic elements performed cleanly. So if some bronze skater wants to try a, say, death drop, power to that skater.

I _don't_ want to see this happen. However, the skating world is huge and diverse, and I know adult skaters who are at the pre-bronze/bronze level that would try elements because they think they need it, even if they're not strong enough skating-wise to do them. (For example, working on axels/doubles when they can't do a loop or flip.) They have the idea that advanced elements done poorly count more than simpler items done well.

99% of bronzes shouldn't be working on flying spins....so what if a flying camel becomes compulsory? I'd like to see the rules change _before_ we see someone gets hurt.

And aren't we talking about Adult Nationals? One should expect that the top-level skaters will be competing, and that everyone will be bringing their A game. If you're in, say, bronze and don't have a lutz, combo spin, good/decent spins, or good footwork, well you need to work harder simply because the top skaters in this level will certainly have these elements. I say this because this applies to me in silver as well!

Yes, but we are also talking about why there are so few bronzes this year. Bronzes are cheap for AN's--$120 for a 1:40 program. So you can have more skaters/hr than in Silver, Gold, or Masters, and thus, more $$/hr. Plus, the dropoff of Bronzes has been significant, so if we don't recognize that there are issues here, we may start seeing less money coming in for AN's in entry fees. And it's not like ABC is looking for AN TV rights...

I think there is a problem at this point with how much the bronze ladies have deviated from the bronze test level (where you need three singles, three spins, none in combination, and bronze level skating...mainly footwork with mohawks and 3-turns). I do understand that these are the best bronzes of the country, but this has gotten a bit out of hand, and now we're losing skaters. (Even though I think it's a combination of things, I think this is the final factor, the determining factor.) My program (see above) should be middle of the pack at AN's. I'm not a sandbagger--I skate like a bronze--but I still feel for people who just passed their bronze fs who compete against me.

I'm game for any suggestions to encourage more bronze ladies--these are just mine. Skating has to win, and this situation is not a winning situation. As happy as I am to make final round, I would have rather earned it and had more cool people to meet.

Jennifer28

03-20-2005, 05:08 PM

Yes. The Silver moves test is also supposed to do that. But listen to this element list:

camel/sit/back sit
footwork from the center of hockey circle to hockey circle
loop-toe-loop
spiral sequence across entire ice surface into lutz-loop
sitspin
footwork w/stag flip
flip
power 3's
waltz jump-tap toe-salchow-toe loop
scratch spin with arms over head

This is just an idea but maybe it has nothing really to do with the elements themselves. I have read your posts on this topic and by the list of elements you put above, it seems to me at first glance that maybe you are really advanced in the Bronze level, but you say that this program was only good enough for last place at Mids. Skateguard, maybe it's not the elements but how you do the elements. Just because you have a lutz-loop and combo spin doesn't necessarily mean that your program is advanced. Are your jumps fully rotated? Are they big? How fast are your spins? I only say this because I am not a great skater myself and I have had "big" programs in the past that didn't place well. It's not because my competitors were sandbaggers or had a bunch of advanced moves on me. It's simply because they jump higher they look better on the ice and their spins are faster. My shaky lutz is worth less than someone else's beautiful big toe loop. That's just the way it is. And anyone can hurt themselves by the way whether it's a flying camel or a waltz jump. I know because I have crashed on a waltz jump yet have never had a really bad fall on my flip jump.

coskater64

03-20-2005, 05:38 PM

You know each year the group changes, the enforcement of the moves makes the skaters have better edge quality and flow and allows for a set of footwork minimums to be meet because they have passed these tests and mastered these steps.

In skating you alway look for edge quality, jump quality, spin quality, flow and ease w/ in the program. Someone who jumps consistently higher w/ a soft flowing exit edge will be rewarded more so than someone w/ smaller jumps and scratchy pulled landings. The same for spins, being centered and fast w/ a good position is better, than slow w/ a poor position.

It is how you do the elements the quality of them, flowing footwork w/ no scratching. Soft arms a good back and the ability to have a line as you flow from element to element. This is for all skating, you can jump yourself to death and flail about but why? I have seen such improvement in the flow of all skaters since the field moves came on board. And while they may hold some back I think they do sooooo much to help adult skating overall. The other thing I notice is the adult dancers, they are sooo good, they move w/ such ease over the ice. If anyone has time to dance they should it gives another advantage.

So for all the bronze skaters, it's not the jumps, it's the overall quality of the program, being solid across the board showing that you are a balanced skater. That's why they are called well-balanced programs.

Just MO.

la :)

NCSkater02

03-20-2005, 06:26 PM

And anyone can hurt themselves by the way whether it's a flying camel or a waltz jump. I know because I have crashed on a waltz jump yet have never had a really bad fall on my flip jump.

I can vouch for you on this one. I'm currently healing a broken ankle acquired after I slipped off my edge on a spin of all things. (Although if anybody asks, I was doing a triple axel) For the most part, I rarely fall on my jumps--knock on wood.

Terri C

03-20-2005, 06:37 PM

Well, you've been competing in bronze, so that should give you a boost of confidence for your freeskate test. I don't even know what is on the darn bronze MIF (and I'd venture to say I probably couldn't pass it -- but onward to gold MIF!)

(Terri, please keep us informed about your mom ...)

IIRC- it's been a LONNNGGG week- I got killed when I competed in Bronze last weekend.
Mom is doing way better-- she is drinking clear liquids and asked for her favorite beverages- hot tea and root beer today. As I went to comb her hair- she took the comb out of my hand and started to comb it herself! :D

NoVa Sk8r

03-20-2005, 06:42 PM

IIRC- it's been a LONNNGGG week- I got killed when I competed in Bronze last weekend.
Mom is doing way better-- she is drinking clear liquids and asked for her favorite beverages- hot tea and root beer today. As I went to comb her hair- she took the comb out of my hand and started to comb it herself! :DGlad to hear, Terri, on this Palm Sunday and first day of spring.

You may have gotten "killed" (as you say) in bronze, but you were skating up a level, so kudos on that, right? 8-)

Michigansk8er

03-20-2005, 06:44 PM

I really don't understand why no one likes Kansas.

I'm going, and never gave it a thought that Kansas was or wasn't a fun place. I'm so busy watching skating from start to finish, that location only enters my mind when I'm checking out the cost of getting there.

I do think it would be nice if all spring tornados are called off that week though!!!

phoenix

03-20-2005, 07:10 PM

I'd like to add a note about the dancers doing bronze programs---I posted something similar on another thread, but now I can't find it.......

I'm a fairly high level dancer, but can't spin to save my life. My jumps are okay, as far as they go, which is through a flip--no lutz. I don't currently compete freestyle, but if I did I'd be skating UP to skate bronze--I've only passed pre-bronze. I could probably pass the bronze test now but no way could I pass silver, which requires a camel spin. I'm very comfortable on footwork, have good flow & speed on the ice, very good posture & presentation.

SO---would I be sandbagging?

ETA--I just wanted to point out that the beautiful skaters you see at bronze (& which apparently everyone is mad about) may truly be skating at the level they're capable of testing to. And not just skating down to win. Dancers don't have to spin, and in dance blades it's hard!

sk8er1964

03-20-2005, 08:48 PM

In skating you alway look for edge quality, jump quality, spin quality, flow and ease w/ in the program. Someone who jumps consistently higher w/ a soft flowing exit edge will be rewarded more so than someone w/ smaller jumps and scratchy pulled landings. The same for spins, being centered and fast w/ a good position is better, than slow w/ a poor position.

It is how you do the elements the quality of them, flowing footwork w/ no scratching. Soft arms a good back and the ability to have a line as you flow from element to element. This is for all skating, you can jump yourself to death and flail about but why? I have seen such improvement in the flow of all skaters since the field moves came on board. And while they may hold some back I think they do sooooo much to help adult skating overall. The other thing I notice is the adult dancers, they are sooo good, they move w/ such ease over the ice. If anyone has time to dance they should it gives another advantage.

So for all the bronze skaters, it's not the jumps, it's the overall quality of the program, being solid across the board showing that you are a balanced skater. That's why they are called well-balanced programs.

Just MO.

la :)

:bow: Amen! :bow:

For a good standard track example, look at the men at this year's worlds. Three of the top four men have no quad. They didn't need it.

sk8er1964

03-20-2005, 08:56 PM

I'm going, and never gave it a thought that Kansas was or wasn't a fun place. I'm so busy watching skating from start to finish, that location only enters my mind when I'm checking out the cost of getting there.

I do think it would be nice if all spring tornados are called off that week though!!!

Hee, hee. Anywhere where there is good skating, good friends, and beer is worth visiting! 8-)

(Hey, maybe that was my problem at Mids -- not enough beer on the days leading up to the event! :lol: :halo: )

flo

03-21-2005, 09:18 AM

By the way,
What airport are National's folks flying into????
Thanks!

skaternum

03-21-2005, 09:28 AM

By the way,
What airport are National's folks flying into????
Thanks!
Kansas City International. The IATA code for that, by the way, is MCI.

Mrs Redboots

03-21-2005, 10:53 AM

I do think it would be nice if all spring tornados are called off that week though!!!Oh, we have to have one! After all, it's about the only thing I know about Kansas - they have tornadoes which carry you off to Oz....

NoVa Sk8r

03-21-2005, 01:27 PM

There's a "latest update" on the tentative schedule:
http://www.silverblades.org/ANdocs/ANSchedule.htm

Looks like there's no Gold Men I event!

starskate6.0

03-21-2005, 01:59 PM

There was only 1 gold mens 1 skater and I was asked if I minded him skating with us in II, I said yes , Im cool with that. 8-)
So Im sure he will get to skate with us. ;)

doubletoe

03-21-2005, 06:45 PM

This is just an idea but maybe it has nothing really to do with the elements themselves. I have read your posts on this topic and by the list of elements you put above, it seems to me at first glance that maybe you are really advanced in the Bronze level, but you say that this program was only good enough for last place at Mids. Skateguard, maybe it's not the elements but how you do the elements. Just because you have a lutz-loop and combo spin doesn't necessarily mean that your program is advanced. Are your jumps fully rotated? Are they big? How fast are your spins? I only say this because I am not a great skater myself and I have had "big" programs in the past that didn't place well. It's not because my competitors were sandbaggers or had a bunch of advanced moves on me. It's simply because they jump higher they look better on the ice and their spins are faster. My shaky lutz is worth less than someone else's beautiful big toe loop. That's just the way it is. And anyone can hurt themselves by the way whether it's a flying camel or a waltz jump. I know because I have crashed on a waltz jump yet have never had a really bad fall on my flip jump.

Very true. Also, speed and flow over the ice between elements is extremely important. When I was in Bronze, I completed more difficult elements and completed them more cleanly than another skater, but she beat me because she had more speed and flow. I learned a huge lesson that day!

doubletoe

03-21-2005, 06:58 PM

[/QUOTE] Yes, but we are also talking about why there are so few bronzes this year.

I'm game for any suggestions to encourage more bronze ladies--these are just mine. Skating has to win, and this situation is not a winning situation. As happy as I am to make final round, I would have rather earned it and had more cool people to meet.[/QUOTE]

Has anyone considered the possibility that we just had a glut of Bronze skaters 5-10 years ago and what we have now is more representative of what it would normally be? Think about it. . . The Adult skating program has only been around for 10 years. A lot of people started at Bronze in the past 5-10 years after having skated recreationally and taken lessons for a few years to bring them up to that level. The result was a lot of people starting their adult competitive skating careers at Bronze in the past 5 years or so. Now that big group has moved up to Silver I or II, mostly Silver II, I suspect (since it's the biggest group).
Also, a lot of people started skating 10 years ago--period--because of all the attention and additional airtime the sport received due to the big Harding-Kerrigan thing. Skating overall saw its biggest increase in participation in the five years after that event, even among the kids. But in the past several years, enrollment in all skating programs has dropped. I don't think it's got anything to do with sandbagging, competitiveness, or lack of rules on flying spins in Bronze (although I would personally second that one). We just need another big attention-getter for figure skating and I think we'll see another wave. Just MHO.

Michigansk8er

03-21-2005, 08:56 PM

Oh, we have to have one! After all, it's about the only thing I know about Kansas - they have tornadoes which carry you off to Oz....

WWWest might get a kick out of a trip to Oz, but I'm not sure I would. :lol:

Michigansk8er

03-21-2005, 09:01 PM

Hee, hee. Anywhere where there is good skating, good friends, and beer is worth visiting! 8-)

Absolutely!!!!!

TimDavidSkate

03-21-2005, 10:08 PM

Are flying spins allowed in the Bronze level? :?: :halo:

I am so not prepared yet for Nationals :frus:

Too busy finding a place in nyc, finding a new job, and just exhausted :giveup:

SkateGuard

03-21-2005, 10:29 PM

Has anyone considered the possibility that we just had a glut of Bronze skaters 5-10 years ago and what we have now is more representative of what it would normally be?

I don't know. This movement is still very new...though I think it was the USFSA's promotion of the first AN's in Wilmington that did more than Tonya and Nancy. However, I think 15 bronze I's is _way_ too small. It means we are not getting the young adults interested and into the adult skating movement. We don't have new adult start skaters coming in. Remember that most skaters who started as kids usually start at AN's in silver.

The phrase I hear most often from beginning adult skaters is "I'll never be good enough to go to Adult Nationals." Then you look at that Bronze I group at Mids--we were all bronzes (no sandbagging), but the level was high. BTW, I consider myself a mid-level bronze, as does my coach who has had students at 9 AN's...she's the one coaching everybody. :) Here's another tidbit...everyone is planning on being silvers in Dallas.....we all plan to test our silvers this summer. I can't imagine being a "test level" bronze, new to adult skating, and be in a group of skaters who will all be competing at silver in six months....

I'm looking at the schedule, and all the Class I numbers are down...who knew there was only Gold I man (and he'll be a II next year)? No Bronze I men, two groups of adult interp I and only one group of masters interp. (I noticed there is no class I men's interp events, either.) Obviously, we are doing something to alienate the Class I crowd. Because they're not signing up...

SkateGuard

03-21-2005, 10:32 PM

Are flying spins allowed in the Bronze level? :?: :halo:

Everything is allowed but axels and doubles. :roll:

TimDavidSkate

03-21-2005, 10:38 PM

Everything is allowed but axels and doubles. :roll:

Thanks :D

Mrs Redboots

03-22-2005, 05:57 AM

There's a "latest update" on the tentative schedule:
http://www.silverblades.org/ANdocs/ANSchedule.htm

Looks like there's no Gold Men I event!Oh good, we'll be able to see the pre-Bronze dances if we aren't too jet-lagged to get up early enough. Want to see how all the other pre-Bronze dancers manage that Willow Waltz (although that's actually final round, not first).... all right, let's see who has as good a Swing Dance Mohawk as my husband or as crappy a one as mine!

TimDavidSkate

03-22-2005, 06:13 AM

Yey, finally

ADULT NATIONALS SCHEDULE (http://www.silverblades.org/adultnatl.html)

skaternum

03-22-2005, 08:56 AM

You'd think I'd know this, having been to two ANs already, but I forget. Do you get your group assignment before you get there, or at checkin?

Raine

03-22-2005, 10:26 AM

IIRC last year we got our group assignments in the mail.

Cheers,
Raine

TimDavidSkate

03-22-2005, 11:13 AM

It says on Championship Gold Men 1 -4 and 5 - 8. Did 4 skaters scratch?

Mrs Redboots

03-22-2005, 11:24 AM

daisies

03-22-2005, 01:35 PM

It says on Championship Gold Men 1 -4 and 5 - 8. Did 4 skaters scratch?

That must be a mistake, because even if there were withdrawls, there would still be alternates to take their place.

dcden

03-22-2005, 02:03 PM

That must be a mistake, because even if there were withdrawls, there would still be alternates to take their place.

Uh huh, sho nuf, that's what I'm sayin'!

nerd_on_ice

03-22-2005, 02:18 PM

It means we are not getting the young adults interested and into the adult skating movement. We don't have new adult start skaters coming in.
I've been following this discussion with tremendous interest as I am, apparently, one of the few, proud "younger" adult-start skaters. I can tell you what adult skating looks like in my area (Dallas--home of AN 2006--y'all come on down and see us). I just turned 32 yesterday; I started skating almost 3 years ago but have only been Really Serious (skating every day, getting ready to test) for about 9 months. The adult skaters I'm acquainted with seem to have these traits in common:
1. Most of them are older than me (40s on up).
2. Most don't compete or test, or not that I know of.

#1 could be just a demographic coincidence; I'm not sure. I don't want to speak in stereotypes, but Class I (age 25-35) is the newlywed/young mother age bracket, too, and I suspect that may somewhat explain the absence of my peers from the ice--the Dallas suburbs are burgeoning with children.

As for #2, I have a hunch that a lot of the coaches here who coach adults don't want to "push" us towards testing/competing (presumably for fear of scaring us off), so they just don't encourage or even mention it.

Also, in an area like this where skating is less established (Dallas has a lot of rinks, 2 clubs, and a lot of interest, but it's mostly quite recent) it seems logical that interest in adult skating lags behind the general trend. At my rink(s) I've never seen any efforts to encourage adults into figure skating--hockey, of course, is another matter!

Just my observations from here in the hinterlands. Personally, I'll be lucky to be a "test level" Bronze at AN '06 and happy to have gotten that far. Heck, if the numbers keep shrinking maybe I'll even be competitive! :lol: And speaking of which, it's time to get off the computer and head to the rink!

daisies

03-22-2005, 03:31 PM

Uh huh, sho nuf, that's what I'm sayin'!
dcden, you should contact the referee or LOC and find out what's up. I wonder if some of the qualifiers didn't get their forms in or something, and if so they need to be including alternates. Either way, there should be 12 competitors.

SkateGuard

03-23-2005, 07:55 PM

Would somebody please explain why the two events I really, really want to see (Ladies Interpretive III and pre-Bronze dance) clash? At least it's only the first round of the pre-Bronze dances, but all the same.....

Well, they seem to like to schedule Ladies Adult Interp I at the same time or close to Masters Novice I...too bad that my coach has students _in both events_. :lol: Last year, she breezed into the 1932 rink, having left her other skater as she was getting off the ice, just in time for my warmup! Do I have an awesome coach or what? :bow: :bow:

She also has a student in Ladies Adult Interp II, Gold Ladies I, and Gold Ladies III....again, all around the same time. (She has six students going to AN's this year, and she's helping a couple of other skaters, so she'll be a bit busy....as usual!)

I'm just glad I'm not doing pre-bronze dance this year...otherwise my coach would be running back and forth between rinks all Thurs. morning! :lol:

SkateGuard

03-23-2005, 08:13 PM

I've been following this discussion with tremendous interest as I am, apparently, one of the few, proud "younger" adult-start skaters. I can tell you what adult skating looks like in my area (Dallas--home of AN 2006--y'all come on down and see us). I just turned 32 yesterday; I started skating almost 3 years ago but have only been Really Serious (skating every day, getting ready to test) for about 9 months. The adult skaters I'm acquainted with seem to have these traits in common:
1. Most of them are older than me (40s on up).
2. Most don't compete or test, or not that I know of.

But the funny thing is that there were 70-something Bronze I's in 2000, including wives, moms, and professionals. There's been a dropoff, probably for many reasons.

I've seen that too--that the adults are usually older (because they are more established, i.e., have more spending dinero), and that many don't want to compete. However, a lot of the coaches out there don't see adults as "serious" skaters (including my first two, one of whom was in charge of adult group lessons at the rink), so they don't push testing, competitions, etc.

There's a great story with a friend of mine which I turned into a fantastic joke between the two of us. Basically, my enthusiasm about testing and competing convinced her to start testing and competing....and she's doing quite well.

My point is that we, the adult skating community, have to do a better job of promoting testing/competing/etc. to young adults. Perhaps the numbers will go up when the job market gets better for entry-level professionals. Then again, they seem to have plenty of $$ for the bars. :twisted: :evil: :roll:

BTW, I hope to see you in Dallas...should be a ton of fun! We go to see our friends, meet new people, and have a good time with something we love to do! And from what I can tell, there will be plenty to do besides be around skating!

Thin-Ice

03-24-2005, 06:35 AM

I was one of the easterners that ventured to Oakland. The Oakland facilites were far too small for AN, even with the smaller turn out. I think that we have to remember that the clubs have to bid on and have the facilities to host AN. After Oakland everyone has really taken a closer look at what is needed to host AN, and there are few rinks and clubs interested or capable.
My favorite is Lake Placid. It's difficult to get to for everyone, but once there it's wonderful.

Lake Placid IS wonderful for AN... but it's nice to have other options so we don't burn out there and so the costs are not always huge for people from other parts of the country. I don't tell my husband how much I spend to go to AN every year.. and he's smart enough not to ask. Ann Arbor and Marlborough are both very nice facilities and it's especially easy to get to see every skater I want to see since I only have to run back and forth between the ice surfaces. I have GREAT hopes for Kansas and Dallas... but wouldn't it be wonderful if someone had so much money they wanted to build a multiplex somewhere really warm in April -- say Hawaii -- and we could choose between Lake Placid and Hawaii every year. (I know, I know.. but we all have to have dreams!)

Have great practices everyone!