Is there a hook before a falling leaf?

[mikawendy]

In the falling leaf jump, is there a hook on the BO entrance edge before the takeoff, like there is in the loop jump? I keep forgetting to ask my instructor. I'll try to ask this week, but in the mean time I thought I'd see if y'all knew...

[Chico]

I was taught that the falling leaf and loop have the same exact takeoff.

[AshBugg44]

^ Yep me too!

[NickiT]

If the falling leaf is what I think we call a half-loop then the take off is exactly as a loop take off. I hope this helps. I'm not great at this jump mind, I'd rather do loop-loop combo any day!

Nicki

[sk8pics]

No, a falling leaf is not a half loop. It's only a half turn jump, so you take off backwards as if for a loop jump but you land forwards. Michele Kwan does a split falling leaf in many of her programs, where she sails through the air in a split position before landing forward.

Pat

[iskatealot]

OH is that what that is??? I always thought it was an odd take off for a split jump

[NickiT]

No, a falling leaf is not a half loop. It's only a half turn jump, so you take off backwards as if for a loop jump but you land forwards. Michele Kwan does a split falling leaf in many of her programs, where she sails through the air in a split position before landing forward.

Pat

Well, what you describe is exactly what my coach calls a half-loop! Obviously some difference in terminology between the US and the UK!

Nicki

[sk8pics]

That's funny, Nicki. Here a half loop is actually a single revolution, but landed on the inside edge on the "wrong" foot. I can sometimes do a half loop but not a loop yet. So much easier to do the half loop landing! It does make more sense to name the falling leaf as a half loop though, since our half loop is actually one whole revolution.

Pat

[NickiT]

That's funny, Nicki. Here a half loop is actually a single revolution, but landed on the inside edge on the "wrong" foot. I can sometimes do a half loop but not a loop yet. So much easier to do the half loop landing! It does make more sense to name the falling leaf as a half loop though, since our half loop is actually one whole revolution.

Pat

We do a half-loop as a loop take-off but landing forwards on the toe of the other foot, so it's only a half-rotational jump from backwards to forwards. In our jumps class our coach gets us to do waltz jump - half-loop - toe-loop as a sequence. She's now just put that sequence into my daughter's new programme and it baffles me that my daughter can just go for it without the dithering that us adults in our class do!!! Personally I find a loop a whole lot easier to do than a half-loop!

Nicki

[sk8pics]

For a while I was doing a waltz jump - falling leaf- half flip sequence. I can do the falling leaf easily out of a good waltz jump, I guess because my weight really starts off in the right place. It's much harder for me to do the falling leaf on its own, although I haven't tried in a while. Hmnnn... maybe tonight!

Pat

[flo]

I love the falling leaf, and put one at the end of a back outside spiral into a forward spiral. To me the 1/2 loop was a full jump lander on the "other" foot. Always seemed a strange name, as it was a full jump. It should really be called an inside loop.

[Chico]

A half loop is what Nicki is describing. A falling leaf takess off like a loop but then looks sorta like a split jump. Yes, it does land forward. A half loop is just a little hop that lands forward. Think about Michelle's falling leaf.

[fadedstardust]

A half loop isn't a little hop- it's a full revolution jump that lands on the opposite foot of the traditional "landing leg", and on the inside edge. It IS harder than a loop jump, by all accounts.

[NoVa Sk8r]

A half loop ... IS harder than a loop jump, by all accounts.Uh, I would say it certainly is *not* harder than a loop jump. And I'm curious as to why you would state that. Is it because you cheat it or see a lot of others cheat the half-loop, i.e., by not getting the full rotation?
Anyway, it is a great little jump to have in one's arsenal. Think flip/half loop/salchow; salchow/half loop/salchow; salchow/half loop/flip; heck, flip/half loop/double salchow. Lots of possibilities.

[Casey]

Would you guys mind explaining a few half jumps? I can do a fine waltz, but I don't think I get enough height to attempt a salchow or toe loop just yet.

I've been working on height with the bunny hop - funny because I thought it a worthless jump when I first learned it, but I've found it's a great way to work on height and distance...and have been doing better waltzes, but I think I need something more to practice on...

Cheers!

[samba]

A lot of the "not so fast skaters" such as myself use the bunny hop to give themselves a kick start into such things as a step sequence.

[NoVa Sk8r]

Would you guys mind explaining a few half jumps? I can do a fine waltz, but I don't think I get enough height to attempt a salchow or toe loop just yet.I think doing some half jumps is not worth it. The half loop is good because you can do it in footwork, and it's very useful in sequences. However, I've found that, for example, learning the half-lutz (if CCW jumper, you pick back your right boot, turn a half rev, and land on your left foot, then immediately switch to glide on your right foot) is not very helpful at all for learning the lutz. And if you work on it too long, it gives your body the wrong memory for doing the full rev lutz. Still, some like these half jumps becasue it helps the beginner at least get a feel for the entrance and for some of the in-air rotation.

[fadedstardust]

Uh, I would say it certainly is *not* harder than a loop jump. And I'm curious as to why you would state that. Is it because you cheat it or see a lot of others cheat the half-loop, i.e., by not getting the full rotation?
Anyway, it is a great little jump to have in one's arsenal. Think flip/half loop/salchow; salchow/half loop/salchow; salchow/half loop/flip; heck, flip/half loop/double salchow. Lots of possibilities.

.....I don't cheat my half loop (can you even do that, it's a loop so it's automatically rotated partially on the ice anyway?). Everyone is allowed to think certain things are harder than others without having someone imply that it's because they're doing it badly. I've had a 3loop for a long time and I hadn't even learned a half loop until a couple years ago, and it took me a heck of a long time to figure out the timing on it, and it's only a single rotation, so I think it's harder, and everyone I've ever asked about loop vs half loop agrees with me. I'm glad you got it easily, that doesn't make it simpler. Putting down the left leg when you're used to landing on the right leg is hard, so is checking the left inside edge before another jump when you're not used to it.

[fadedstardust]

Half lutz and half flip aren't worthless to work on if only for one reason: it's on the pre-pre USFS freestyle test, so if you plan on testing it, you need to practice it. Meanwhile, I think it can be good or bad, depending, but you definitely shouldn't practice them too often or you will start to find it impossible to start rotating the jump, as Nova said. I think it helps beginners learn to check the 3-turn, and to hold the edge long enough (especially the outside edge in the half-lutz), and to pick far enough back, and to learn the dragging action and well as to jump straight up into the air, instead of pre-rotating, and for that, I think they are worth it. But I would wait until you are with your coach to tackle them, these are NOT the jumps you want to pick up bad habits on.

[NoVa Sk8r]

.....I don't cheat my half loop (can you even do that, it's a loop so it's automatically rotated partially on the ice anyway?). Everyone is allowed to think certain things are harder than others without having someone imply that it's because they're doing it badly. I've had a 3loop for a long time and I hadn't even learned a half loop until a couple years ago, and it took me a heck of a long time to figure out the timing on it, and it's only a single rotation, so I think it's harder, and everyone I've ever asked about loop vs half loop agrees with me. I'm glad you got it easily, that doesn't make it simpler. Putting down the left leg when you're used to landing on the right leg is hard, so is checking the left inside edge before another jump when you're not used to it.Give me a break!
You've landed a triple loop, but couldn't do a half-loop or hadn't even learned it? Oh, brother, now I've heard everything. :roll: The half-loop can be cheated--some folks only get a half rev on it.

[flo]

One thing the 1/2 loop is good for is if your regular landing foot is injured (like from too many double sal landings :roll: ), you can still jump. I think that's how I got a good falling leaf and a decent 1/2 loop.

As for the 1/2 rotation jumps, I like to teach them to beginners who may be on the timid side of learning jumps. Then after they learn it and get the feel of picking in and rotating - forget it! Although I do like to do a 1/2 flip, 1/2 flip, whole flip.

[sk8er1964]

It seems that the only time I ever do a half loop is when I've screwed up my weight position on the regular loop! :roll:

Seriously, though, I grew up in ISIA, and they taught the half loop at the same time as the loop (both on Freestyle 4, I believe). They (ISI) use that jump far more in combinations than does the USFS, I think, since they require it on several tests. Personally, I never cared for the jump, and I absolutely hated the axel-half loop-double sal combo!

[mikawendy]

Thanks for all the answers, plus all the info on the half loop! I've purposefully been avoiding working on the half loop because my trouble all along with the loop, when I was learning it, was putting down the free foot.

So I learned something interesting about the falling leaf--even though it is a BO edge takeoff just like the loop, I *can't* do it from back crossovers plus hook the same as the loop. Maybe that's just my technique for now, but there's just too much rotation and momentum for me to handle! So it will be back to waltz-falling leaf for now for me...

[Chico]

Well..... to me the half loop feels like a little hop. I use it as "step between" into other jumps in a combo. It is NOT harder than a loop.

[fadedstardust]

Give me a break!
You've landed a triple loop, but couldn't do a half-loop or hadn't even learned it? Oh, brother, now I've heard everything. :roll: The half-loop can be cheated--some folks only get a half rev on it.

I'm not sure where the 'tude is coming from, or why you're so pissed off that I had difficulty learning the half loop, but um, if my struggle with the half loop and fact that I was never taught it (because it's really not a required element in the first place...) troubles you this badly, then I apologize? Geez.

[Mrs Redboots]

Although I do like to do a 1/2 flip, 1/2 flip, whole flip.My coach had an Evil Exercise for one of his skaters (not me, thankfully), which was (round a circle) double 3, 1/2 flip, double 3, flip, double 3, double flip.... I said "Sooner her than me!" which made my coach laugh. It might have been two double 3s between each jump, I don't know. I think, that like Mikawendy, 3-jump (waltz jump)/falling leaf will be my next project.... I seldom jump, and never more than 1/2 revolution jumps on the ice, but it's nice to have some small hops for an Interpretive programme.

[sk8pics]

In a surprising development (to me anyway, :roll: my coach had me working on loops last night. I was lamenting the fact that I could do a falling leaf so well (and he agreed!) but it's so hard for me to do a loop jump. My coach said that the takeoff for the falling leaf is actually much flatter than the loop jump, and that's why I could do one well but not the other. I also think that doing the falling leaf after a waltz jump is easier than doing the falling leaf by itself because I'm already in the right position, but I was afraid to mention that for fear he'd have me trying waltz-loops! 8O ) Anyway I ended up doing a few half-loops instead of loops. For me it's just easier to land on the wrong foot!

Pat

[flo]

Mika - sk8pics-
Try a falling leaf from an inside 3. It's a good way to get them into footwork.
I like to do back crossovers ccw, then step forward and do a forward inside 3 (CCW), leaf and step right into a second FI3 and leaf. The second is usually higher than the first. It's a good way to change direction in a program.

[sk8pics]

Flo- That would be a good idea if only I could do a FI3, :frus: . I have a feeling I can do the falling leaf by itself now anyway, but I didn't get a chance to try it last night. I just love doing it after a waltz jump.

Pat

[sk8er1964]

Thanks for all the answers, plus all the info on the half loop! I've purposefully been avoiding working on the half loop because my trouble all along with the loop, when I was learning it, was putting down the free foot.

So I learned something interesting about the falling leaf--even though it is a BO edge takeoff just like the loop, I *can't* do it from back crossovers plus hook the same as the loop. Maybe that's just my technique for now, but there's just too much rotation and momentum for me to handle! So it will be back to waltz-falling leaf for now for me...

I do mine from a mohawk (RFI mohawk, step & jump). That's probably a similar feel to your waltz-falling leaf.

[kayskate]

Half lutz and half flip aren't worthless to work on if only for one reason: it's on the pre-pre USFS freestyle test,

Also useful b/c they are foundations (particularly the 1/2 flip) for splits and stags. These can be cool when done as a 1/2 lutz.

Kay

[pennybeagle]

Add me to the list of skaters who hate the half loop.

Yes, I can do a full loop (and a good one, at that). Yes, I am working on double loops (half turn cheat). Yes, I can do a falling leaf, and a mean split falling leaf.

But when it comes to my jump sequence in my program: split jump-flip jump-half loop-salchow, it is always that darn half loop that gets me every time.

I've been working on it for three years, with three different coaches. I have NO idea why this jump doesn't work for me, and really wish that it did, but oh well. Meanwhile, I work on it on every session and bargain with my coach to take it out of my program nearly every lesson. The problem is that coach seems to think I need a salchow somewhere in there.

(Secretly, pennybeagle has been working on Skater1964's axel-mazurka-salchow combination. One of these days, when she can finally do it, she will take it to her coach and hopefully the half loop will be GONE! :twisted: She will get to do her split-flip-falling leaf-toe sequence that she likes so much better)

If there is a trick to getting that half loop to work, please, please tell me!!

[2salch0w]

The half flip and half lutz are much more useful if you learn to land them on your usual landing foot. This is how I was taught and I could never imagine why anyone would try to do it the other way, then I realized I was in the minority. I think the way I do it is considered the Canadian half flip/lutz.

So for CCW, you reach back and pick in with the right toe pick, rotate half turn and land forward on right toe pick with left leg crossed in front, then step to left forward outside edge. Doing it THIS way is great practice for the real thing.

As for the half loop, I also find it much harder than the loop. But I don't like any of the conversion jumps, so it's no surprise.

Tim

[Chico]

pennybeagle,

I got the half loop when I thought of it as a hop. Keep your weight over the right side like in the the loop and think hop around to the left foot. I found it helpful to think about where I wanted to hop to and what foot I needed to land on. Practice on the floor to get familiar with the feeling. It's a quick little jump feeling. I tried.... =-)

[Mrs Redboots]

I don't do much free skating, but thought I might try a sequence of 3-jump (a k a waltz jump), falling leaf, 3-jump. But in the pros' room my coach's wife (or my husband's coach) said it would be better, she thought to do 3-jump, falling leaf, 3-turn and then cherry flip (toe loop). So I tried that.... anybody ever done a half toe-loop..... carefully jumped round so landed it going forwards..... duh.....:frus: I don't even want to jump high, just little hops.

[sk8pics]

Mrs. Redboots -- Try a half flip instead of the toe loop that you tried. So the sequence is waltz jump -- falling leaf --half flip. I do this sequence at times, usually with an extra push in between the falling leaf and half flip and I think it feels cool and is not too scary.

Pat

[singerskates]

In my freeskate I do a fast FO spiral straight into RI mo split/toe loop/toe loop but in my interpretive freeskate I do a split/falling leaf into 3 power RFI 3's to fit the music and then RFI mo to LFO power 3's to fit the next section of music. If I don't get my falling leaf right on the take off, I mess up my RFI power 3's and then my program is off with the music. I think I have it down now though.

[Mrs Redboots]

Mrs. Redboots -- Try a half flip instead of the toe loop that you tried. So the sequence is waltz jump -- falling leaf --half flip. I do this sequence at times, usually with an extra push in between the falling leaf and half flip and I think it feels cool and is not too scary.

PatHalf flip isn't really taught here, but I can see how it would work. We were playing yesterday - well, my coach was showing some kids, and I joined in - with picking in as if to do a toe loop or flip or lutz, but not actually rotating, just jumping up and landing backwards. This was to teach the kids not to rotate on the ice, which both those particular young women have a habit of doing. It was fun, and I think would look quite good in an artistic programme, as long as the judges didn't think you'd meant to jump and fluffed it!

[fadedstardust]

Is there even such a thing as a half toe loop? I mean if you glide the foot back correctly then you are already halfway around as you kick your leg up, so you wouldn't have anywhere to go...I agree that half flip would be a better idea. Or full toe loop, which is really (in my humble opinion) the easiest jump of them all once you grasp the drag action of the foot.

[mikawendy]

As for the half loop, I also find it much harder than the loop. But I don't like any of the conversion jumps, so it's no surprise.

Tim

Conversion jumps? What is that? Is that what people mean when they say that some jumps change axis of rotation (salchow, waltz, axel, etc.) and others have same axis of rotation (loop, flip, etc.)? I saw jumps divided like this on a web page once, but couldn't find more details. If so, can you explain? I don't really understand this concept, because I would think that the axis of rotation is the same in all but jumps with a counterrotated entry (walley, lutz)

[kayskate]

Is there even such a thing as a half toe loop?

I guess it would really be a mazurka.

Kay

[Mrs Redboots]

Of course, I realised today that what I was actually doing was a half flip, not half toe-loop.... duh.... makes quite a fun little hoppy sequence, though.

[sk8pics]

Yes, it is kind of fun Mrs. Redboots! Except lately the half flip has been scaring me because I feel like I'm going too fast into it! But I'm sure it will stabilize and it will be fun again.

Pat

[PattyP]

I think the half loop is more difficult than a loop because, for me, it's more difficult to "check" the landing. Beside it just feels weird because I've probably done a whole lot more loops in practice than I have half loops. I have not done one since I last competed ISI FS4.