double toe vs. double loop

[Ellyn]

Well, I've been working on double salchow on and off since 1976 :-). Still haven't rotated it completely, but my new coach was happy enough with my attempts today to ask if I'd tried any other doubles yet. I told her I'd had 3 5-minute lessons (about 3 years ago) on double loop, and she was surprised I hadn't tried double toe instead and promised to start teaching it to me next week.

Anyway, my observations in the past decade and back in the 70s suggest that all coaches teach the double salchow first (and usually triple salchow first for those who are starting to learn triples), but there seems to be a difference of opinion about what double to teach second. How much does it depend on the coach's philosophy and how much on the skater's strengths and weaknesses (e.g., preference for edge vs. toe jumps)?

[dcden]

My coach prefers starting off with the double Salchow and double toe (at least for me). Her reasoning is that, after the entry and once the skater is actually leaving the ice, the two jumps are very similar. For CC rotating jumpers, this means the right leg is swinging to the left to generate the rotation, with weight shifting back to the right side after 1/2 - 1 revolution. With the double loop the weight remains on the right side the whole time, and (I'm guessing as an observer that) the left leg generates the rotation. Take this as a grain of salt, however, because I haven't landed a clean double-anything yet.

[LoopLoop]

I've just started working on doubles this summer, and my coach started with double loop because the loop is my strongest single. We've also started the double salchow. Personally I HATE toe loops and would be just as happy to skip the double toe altogether and start on a double flip, which is my second-best single jump.

Dennis, for the double loop the free leg doesn't generate the rotation. It's supposed to come from snapping your hips.

[Careygram]

I actually landed double flip first. Double sal is still my nemesis. Maybe a good approach is to see how the skater feels about the singles. Even though I had an axel I still had trouble converting the sal and toe loop.

[kar5162]

My coach also likes the double loop. It's actually the first double we started with and the first double I landed (before the axel even). Loop is one of my stronger singles.

Thinking about it, we started axel first, then began double loop when axel was going nowhere. We played with double salchow and double toe loop on and off depending on which singles were working best...mostly double salchow.

Currently I am trying to get back on the ice from another injury (ankle this time), but I've basically been off the ice or at least not jumping since May with brief periods of healthiness. Back in early May I was landing double loop, double salchow, and axel maybe 50%, but mostly some degree of cheated. I also had a decent attempt (so I was told) at double flip, though my mind was unwilling to try and land it on one foot. I'm hoping I can get everything back soon. Loop seems to be the most natural for me, but I have problems with my left ACL, so that could explain a lot of my weird skating behaviors.

Kim

[melanieuk]

My coach appears to teach in this order:

axel
2 salchow
2 toe loop
2 loop
2 flip
2 lutz

However she says that if some skaters show a particular talent for [i:1363769e26]any[/i:1363769e26] of the jumps, in any order, she'll go with what is comfortable for the pupil.

I hope so because I can't see me [b:1363769e26]ever[/b:1363769e26] doing a 2toeloop. :evil:
I'd rather start with salchow or loop.

[TashaKat]

I haven't done doubles for a while due to loss of Free coaches and hurting knee ligaments BUT ...... they seemed to go:

1) Axel, 2toe & 2sal
2) 2loop, 2flip
3) 2lutz
4) 2axel

HOWEVER! My 'best' double is the loop, followed by the flip [i:ca5b215c4e](I hasten to add, here, that I have ONCE landed a (fluke) fully rotated 2flip but only got up to 1.75 on 2loop/2flip since and a fluke 1.75 on the 2lutz).[/i:ca5b215c4e] I find the 2toe the MOST difficult followed by the 2sal (though I DID manage to one-foot them to just past forwards when I was working on them!) and I won't even MENTION the axel! My coach once said that a lot of people get the 2sal before the axel :? I can't WAIT to start working 'properly' on jumps again, I really feel as though I'm slipping back on them :(

L x

[rinsk]

On the singles, I was definately a toe-jumper (took me forever to learn loop but I landed lutz the first day trying: flip is still probably my strongest single). However, I found double sal and loop easiest of the double (and much easier than axel) but I think that's just because I was lucky enough to stumble over the proper timing of 2sal and hang onto it and I just plain old liked the fact that once you take of for double loop, you're already in position to land it and don't need to fiddle around with position in the air. I think I was taught axel, then 2sal, the 2toe, then probably 2loop,flip,lutz in the same lesson shortly after the other doubles and left to tinker with them all.

[tidesong]

I am learning the dble sal and dble toe loop together... since i haven't landed either... but i was having some toe loop probelms but just got over those and with new skates that actually fit now... i am hoping to land one of them :) My coach hasn't started me on the dble loop yet... but that's because my single jumps are all about the same standard... no obvious favs actually. my axel is pretty fine now... so maybe that would be my fav. it is also my biggest jump. I also haven't landed a clean dble loop off ice so i am scared to try it on ice... i have a quarter rotation short on land.

[Chico]

My coach is a firm believer in a jump pattern of learning. This is the pattern: waltz, toe loop, loop, flip, lutz, axel, 2 sal, 2 toe, 2 loop, 2 flip, 2 lutz, ... I'm presently trying 2 sals, which is much easier than an axel in my book. I want to work on 2 loops something horrid as I love the single to pieces. My best jump too. My coach won't let me go here until I have the 2 sal and 2 toe. Part of me argues with his theory because I have done 2 loops on my own. But, I have learned that my coach does know his stuff and try to appreciate this. I'm not a saint though and do have my disobedient days. I work this out by telling myself that I'm "working" ahead. =-)

Chico

[Hannahclear]

I'm still on singles, but I definitely think the order depends on the skater, absolutely in singles, and probably in doubles for your more recreational freestyler. I can't do a salchow to save my life, and my toe loop isn't that good either, but I have a pretty good loop and a flip that is decent, though a bit spotty (likes to take vacations now and then). I think it depends on the person. I can't for the life of me figure out how a salchow is supposed to have any power and speed and when I get to doubles, probably a couple of years from now, I think I'd have a much better chance with the loop or flip than a salchow.
I think the order really matters for young skaters who really want to compete and test and get up there, then you have to know everything, but hey, the world won't end if I don't ever get a double salchow. Different goals you know, I think adult skaters can mostly work on what's comfortable.

[Lars]

I also think it depends largely on the skater.. I remember a few years ago I was just doing double toes by myself without my coach - I soon perfected the jump and that's why we worked on the quality of it before the salchow. But then, I also see coaches at the rink teaching their pupils the salchow first because they have just finished the axel or 'waltz jump' and then going on to the double toe which is an absolute disaster.