Judging: Horror Stories

[dbny]

The thread about judging on the "On Ice - Parents/Coaches" forum prompted me to start this one.

Here is what happened at a test session I heard about (from one of the coaches involved). I know both skaters and have actually judged them in a small competition. They are both less than 11 years old.

Skater1 and Skater2 were both testing pre-prelim moves at the same test session. Both skaters could have passed this test last year. Although there were three judges present, both skaters were assigned the same judge and asked to skate at the same time. The judge asked one skater to start behind the other skater. Misunderstanding the instructions, skater2 started immediately behind skater1 on the edge patterns, almost running into skater1. Skater1 mistakenly started on the FI edges, and then repeated them, never doing the FO edges. Neither skater was asked to reskate any element. Skater1 passed, skater2 did not 8O

If this was not a case of a poorly run test session and incompetant judging, I don't know what is. It infuriates me that one judge had to watch both skaters, which the judge obviously failed at, that skater1 was not asked to reskate the FO pattern, and that skater2 was not told to skate on a different line or to reskate the pattern that was too close to skater1 to be done properly.

[backspin]

I'd think that one would be a case to file a complaint w/ the USFSA. There is no way that it's permissible for 1 judge to simultaneously judge two skaters. 8O

[TashaKat]

That sounds like a right farce!

A friend of mine was doing a fairly high level test. His remarks sheet at on the exercise said:

"Poor edges"

The general comments said:

"Good edges and flow"


Erm, so which was it?

[suiyan]

This is not a horror story except for the competitors. We had a visiting overseas judge who was judging one of our major competitions. He slept through most of the programs or had his head down when jumps and spins were performed. He gave most skaters marks in the 1's and 2's. In one group from memory he had 4 skaters all with the same ordinals. Half way through one event he left the judging table and began to walk away-I think he was going to the toilet. The referree took off after him and had to drag him back to the judging table. He was never invited back again.

[roza]

A friend of mine was doing a fairly high level test. His remarks sheet at on the exercise said:
"Poor edges"

The general comments said:
"Good edges and flow"


Erm, so which was it?

It could be that in general your friend had good edges and flow, but just had bad edging on that particular exercise. Would that make any sense in the context?

[_back_layback_]

when i was taking MIF, don't remember what level, but I wastaking them at the same time with some other girl . Her edges and moves were shaky at best and almost fell a few times. I skated well and had good edge flow. She passed and I didn't. After my coach
(the head of the rink and known international coach) did some digging, we found out later than the test papers had been switched! 8O This was after the test daym so I had to re-test. I passed with "flying colours" lol. :lol:

[dbny]

This is not a horror story except for the competitors.

Good point! Any judges please feel free to post your horror stories of the competitions or test sessions from H*ll.

I recently judged a small in-house competition (no credentials needed, I was asked because I didn't know most of the skaters). Overall it was a fun experience, and the comp wasvery well run . OTOH, I had to choose between walking across the ice or climbing over a wall to get into the hockey box where they put us. Being 57, short, and not so limber, climbing was not appealing to me, but there is little I dread more than being on ice without my skates, so climb I did! I also learned why Tatiana Tarasova always wears a fur coat at competitions!

[TashaKat]

It could be that in general your friend had good edges and flow, but just had bad edging on that particular exercise. Would that make any sense in the context?

That's what I thought at first but having seen the test paper it didn't make an ounce of sense. The judge had obviously stuffed up!

[doubletoe]

This judge was obviously a lousy communicator. On my Adult Bronze MIF test, I was asked to test at same time as another adult taking the same test, and we were told to start at opposite ends of the rink so that we would be one rink length away from each other. I'm sure that is what this judge meant in this case, but he/she didn't say it, and an 11-year old will just follow instructions literally.

It's too bad the second skater's coach wasn't there to interrupt the judge once the girls started, and explain that the skater had not understood what was meant by "starting behind" the other skater. The second skater should have been allowed to re-start the moves on the opposite end of the rink.

[Mrs Redboots]

At the Mountain Cup the judges have to walk across the ice to get to their box - there are times when naughty skaters have been known to "buzz" unpopular judges during their warm-ups..... it is tempting. Fortunately, all the regular judges have terrific senses of humour and never mind.

At one recent competition, one of the judges lost concentration..... most embarrassed he was, afterwards, when he realised.

Husband still treasures the comment a judge wrote on his last test paper: "Try to keep your hips further forwards". (In other words "don't stick your bum out!"). He is to test again tomorrow.... why am I more nervous than he is?

[Mel On Ice]

my only complaint on a test session was having to share the ice with pre-pre and preliminary skaters for moves, simply because we weren't testing the same things, and I spent half the test trying to avoid the kids. As a result, I was asked to do a move over that I had worked hard on DURING the test, but messed up at the end to dodge a back spiral.

[sk8pics]

my only complaint on a test session was having to share the ice with pre-pre and preliminary skaters for moves

That happened to me on my pre-bronze free skating test. There were two pre-pre kids testing at the same time, and while I was talking to the judge one came over and set up and jumped right behind where I was standing. That kid's judge saw my stricken expression and told me she'd keep the kid away from my section of the ice, thank goodness.

Pat

[tazsk8s]

My former club made me warm up my Pre-Bronze FS with kids testing Pre-Juv and Juv MITF. Wasn't exactly my most effective warmup. I tested Pre-Bronze FS right after they developed that test. My coach and I prepared it like the Pre-Pre FS...elements only, short pause between each one. When I got my sheet back, I had passed, but the judge had made a comment about "Too many scratchy stops in program". HUH?? Turns out that this judge was expecting to see the elements connected together, program style, no music. I was kind of miffed because nowhere in the rulebook is this required for Pre-Bronze FS.

I've since found out from other folks who have taken Pre-Bronze with this club that they still expect a "program" on this test, even though they don't exactly publicize this "fact" and it's still not really "required" by the rules. Kind of hard not to feel like you're being set up to fall flat when they do this.

[jenlyon60]

my only complaint on a test session was having to share the ice with pre-pre and preliminary skaters for moves, simply because we weren't testing the same things, and I spent half the test trying to avoid the kids. As a result, I was asked to do a move over that I had worked hard on DURING the test, but messed up at the end to dodge a back spiral.

My club's test chair almost always puts any Pre-Bronze tests together with the Pre-Prelims...and they're all warming up together. Then for the MIF, just has the Pre-Bronze candidate stand by the barrier when the Pre-Pres are doing their spirals. The remainder of the test (both MIF & FS) are usually run as single judge tests (if she's got the right level of judges), so she then has all the candidates in that group go over to the judges, and each judge will have "their" skater go through the remaining elements (the skaters will have already done the perimeter stroking).

The Bronze MIF tests are usually put out with the Pre-Juv, although occasionally with the Prelim. Our test sessions are usually double-paneled, and when the moves vary between the 2 levels, test chair (who is normally announcing) has each skater stand at the barrier while the other skater does the requested element.

For our freestyles tests, other than the Pre-Bronze/Pre-Pre, a group of 5 or 6 will warm up together. Levels may vary all the way from Prelim to Senior (although normally I think she tries to keep the groups with Prelim testers in them to top out at Juv or Intermediate). For example, the first group of Freestyle tests in our most recent test session had skaters ranging from Juvenile to Junior (actually 1 of each level from Juv to Jr.)

[Debbie S]

That kid's judge saw my stricken expression and told me she'd keep the kid away from my section of the ice, thank goodness.


You're lucky, compared to what happened to another of my coach's students when she took her Pre-Bronze FS (I guess you tested on a different day :) ). They were running an hour behind schedule, apparently, and she was out warming up with some kids, and her judge came over and asked her to start right then and there b/c they wanted to make up some time. She had to do her test elements with kids warming up all around her! :roll: But she passed.

Actually, this woman has had a run of bizarre test experiences. When she took her Bronze MIF recently, she was knocked down by another skater in the warm-up, injuring the same knee that she had injured about 8 months earlier (which kept her off the ice for a few months). Then, while she was waiting to take her test, trying to keep the knee from stiffening up, she was told she was going to be moved to the next warm-up group b/c one judge had to leave early and they needed to put out a skater who needed a full judging panel. So she had to warm up again, and at the end of the warm-up, the judge called her over and wouldn't let her go over to our coach to take off her warm-up jacket, and said to her as she moved to her starting position, "Don't fall." 8O (she had fallen a few moments earlier in warm-up, probably b/c of her knee). But she passed that test, too, and got marks above the passing average. When I heard this story, I told her she was my hero. :bow:

And the footnote to this story is that the test chair of this club (it was not this woman's home club) called our coach a few days later to apologize for the last-minute changes and mentioned that the judge who caused the last-minute schedule change was spotted by the test chair having lunch at the rink's snack bar area after the time she said she had to leave! :roll:

[CanAmSk8ter]

I ended up having a similar experience one of the times I took my Juv moves. We had a couple of skaters scratch, so the test ended up running about 30 minutes early. Luckily I was there and ready to go when they called my warm-up early, but it wasn't until our warm-up was over and the called us off that they realized the girl scheduled to skate first wasn't there. She wasn't from our club, so only a couple of people even knew who she was. I was supposed to go second, so I was thrown out there as soon as the judges were assembled. It actually didn't rattle me that much- I failed (again) but by a smaller margin that the other times, and in retrospect I doubt it had anything to do with the confusion and skating early. I don't think it helped, but I doubt I would have passed anyway. I wasn't really ready.

Oh yeah- it turned out the girl who was supposed to go first had been practicing on the freestyle session on the other rink. Apparently her coach hadn't thought to check a schedule with a monitor when they arrived. I don't get that- the first thing I do at any test session or competition is ALWAYS to find out whether they're running on time. Being ahead of schedule is rare, but it does happen.

I have a friend who's the test chair at her club, about 3 hours away from me. Apparently there's one judge in her area who's really not too sharp anymore, and she said that when they double-panel with him, the other judges constantly keep an eye on him to make sure he's judging the right skater, because he often isn't. As soon as she started telling us this story, two other skaters from closer to her area started laughing and guessed who the judge was- and they were right. I don't know this judge personally, but I have seen his name on competition sheets and his marks are often out of line with everyone else's. I assume part of the problem is that I think this guy is in his late seventies at least, and we just don't have enough younger skaters interested in judging to be taking over from the ones who have gotten too elderly to do it competently anymore. Of all the kids my age I've skated with over the years- probably hundreds, by now- I know exactly two who have gotten involved in judging. (I don't mean that all elderly judges are incompetent, because I know of several in their seventies who are still very good, but let's face it, at some point, the visual and cognitive processes just aren't gonna be there.)

[sk8pics]

Actually, this woman has had a run of bizarre test experiences. When she took her Bronze MIF recently, she was knocked down by another skater in the warm-up, injuring the same knee that she had injured about 8 months earlier (which kept her off the ice for a few months). ...[much really bad stuff snipped] But she passed that test, too, and got marks above the passing average. When I heard this story, I told her she was my hero. :bow:


OMG, Debbie, that is awful! I mean, it's wonderful she passed but to have such an ordeal! Do I know this person? Is it "K"? I know she passed her bronze freestyle recently, but I don't know when she did her moves test. I'd reeaallly like to know who that judge was who wouldn't let her take off her jacket and gave her such encouragement. :evil: I have my suspicions. PM me if you get a chance.

Pat

[skatingatty]

... we just don't have enough younger skaters interested in judging to be taking over from the ones who have gotten too elderly to do it competently anymore. Of all the kids my age I've skated with over the years- probably hundreds, by now- I know exactly two who have gotten involved in judging. (I don't mean that all elderly judges are incompetent, because I know of several in their seventies who are still very good, but let's face it, at some point, the visual and cognitive processes just aren't gonna be there.)

That's so true. How many of you all are judges or trying to become judges? It is so frustrating (as test chair of my club) to find qualified judges who aren't going to cost the club a ton to fly in AND are available to come judge. Most of the high level judges are over the age of 45 or 50, and judges who are silver or gold level for dance tests are like endangered species. One time, I planned to call a certain judge, and someone told me the judge had died. The idea of trying to become a judge has crossed my mind, but it seems like a very time-consuming and expensive ordeal. You might have to travel to out-of-state test sessions to be able to trial judge some of the required tests, all at your own expense.

[vesperholly]

That's so true. How many of you all are judges or trying to become judges? It is so frustrating (as test chair of my club) to find qualified judges who aren't going to cost the club a ton to fly in AND are available to come judge.
I trialed when I was in college, and was only a few tests away from my Bronze singles appointment. The problem is that it's time-consuming and entirely at your expense. When I graduated and started to work full-time, I quit trialing because I just didn't have the time to work, skate AND judge. Plus, it's just hard work!

The USFSA doesn't make it any easier for those with some, but not a lot of skating experience. The accelerated track (requiring less trialing) is only for Novice and above. IMHO if you've passed a Novice anything, you're more likely to coach than judge.

[icedancer2]

I'm glad someone brought this up -- I'm 50 and just got my Bronze Dance and Singles appointment -- it took about 2 years to get all of the requirements. I can only do it because I work for myself and can alter my schedule easily. Now they are really pushing me to get my Silver appointment and I've hardly started judging yet.

If I had known it would take a long time I would have started a lot sooner.

But I can also say that judging really really makes you aware of what you need to know to know about skating. I have learned a lot by watching tests and then asking my coach and the other judges about things I've seen. If I hadn't started trial judging I would never have learned the Moves or tested them. I needed to know what these kids were doing and Moves are definitely not figures!!

I would encourage anyone who is critical of judges to try trial judging, at least for a little while. It is unbelievable how quick your decisions have to be!!!

[Kristin]

I agree with Icedancer2.

As a fellow Bronze Singles/Pairs test judge, I can tell you that you have to have lightning quick hands/reflexes to be able to write all the comments/elements.

It was funny because when I became a judge, one of the kids at our rink made me promise that when I judged tests, that I would write neatly so she could read all the comments! Out of the mouths of babes.......and I never forgot this. When I judge, I write swiftly but neatly. This is sometimes very hard to do when the tests are back-to-back.

Kristin

[jenlyon60]

Amen! I've been trial judging towards getting my Bronze appointments, and one of the first things I acquired was a real admiration for judges that can write a comment that is both understandable and legible.

And I'm saying that from the perspective of having to figure out how to express what I'm trying to say quickly and clearly in about 10 words or less, not from a slam perspective.

[tazsk8s]

Amen! I've been trial judging towards getting my Bronze appointments, and one of the first things I acquired was a real admiration for judges that can write a comment that is both understandable and legible.

And I'm saying that from the perspective of having to figure out how to express what I'm trying to say quickly and clearly in about 10 words or less, not from a slam perspective.

Definitely an acquired skill! I started trial judging this past summer, and while the judges-in-charge have all been very complimentary of my ability to write both legibly and in understandable, helpful terms, I did make a huge boo-boo on a test on the first session I did. I was trying to watch and write at the same time and all of my comments were one line off. Ouch! Luckily they had two panels going and the skater with the other panel had to do a reskate, so I had a small break in which to fix my error.

[Isk8NYC]

My horror story with judging happened to me at a USFSA competition. It was my first and last. I was 19 years old, skating against axel-wielding 12 year olds since that's the way USFSA did things then. I lost, miserably, which would have been okay. I understood that the other kids skated more difficult maneuvers.

The lady judge on the panel felt compelled to corner me after the competition and remark that my skirt was too short. I was appalled that that's all she could say, not "you need more height on jumps" or "the spins need to be held longer." I don't think she realized that I took that comment to heart, believing that I didn't have a chance in USFSA. I never skated a USFSA competition or test again.

[pennybeagle]

This is not a horror story per se, but it sure taught me how *ahem* subjective a sport this is...

I had three judges for my bronze freestyle test a couple years ago. Here are the general comments:

Judge 1: "good power, nice height on jumps." "moved with good musical feel." (This judge gave me .3 above passing)

Judge 2: "nice spring on flip. Good position on sit spin." "good energy."
(This judge gave me the passing average)

Judge 3: "jumps ok. Need more power, speed between elements." "needs to interpret music in a more personal manner with better flow." (This judge failed me by .2)

In the end, I passed anyway, but it did make me laugh.

[Debbie S]

This is not a horror story per se, but it sure taught me how *ahem* subjective a sport this is...


Yep, I had all sorts of conflicting comments when I took (and passed) my Pre-Bronze MIF and FS recently. On the moves test, 1 judge wrote that I did a good job of pushing off my edges on the forward stroking and another wrote that I wasn't pushing with my back foot. One judge (the one who failed me) said I needed to hold my BI edges longer and another judge wrote that I "held edges" on that move.

On my FS test, one judge wrote that I had 4 revs on my 2-foot spin and another wrote that I had 5. One judge also wrote that I needed 1 more rev on my 1-foot spin (I didn't) but oddly enough, didn't ask me to reskate it, and passed me anyway. I guess it was a combo of the test being pass/retry and my test being the last test in a 4 1/2 hour test session. I'm sure the judges were hungry by then - lol!

[sk8pics]

On my FS test, one judge wrote that I had 4 revs on my 2-foot spin and another wrote that I had 5. One judge also wrote that I needed 1 more rev on my 1-foot spin (I didn't) but oddly enough, didn't ask me to reskate it, and passed me anyway. I guess it was a combo of the test being pass/retry and my test being the last test in a 4 1/2 hour test session. I'm sure the judges were hungry by then - lol!

I think sometimes the judges count revolutions differently, so for example, one will count the initial getting-into-position revolution as one and others won't. I know my judge for my pre-bronze free skating test was extremely generous in how she counted the revolutions on my spins. Thank goodness!

Pat

[jenlyon60]

Counting spin revolutions can be very tricky... depending partly on the requirements... total revolutions, or revolutions in position.

And with the latter, at what point for a sit spin (for example) do you start to count? When the skater has achieved a recognizable sit position but is still "getting lower", or when the skater has clearly gotten to where they're going and has stabilized...

Same with Camel...

[skaternum]

And with the latter, at what point for a sit spin (for example) do you start to count? When the skater has achieved a recognizable sit position but is still "getting lower", or when the skater has clearly gotten to where they're going and has stabilized...
I vote for starting the count the very instant I get into something that remotely resembles a sit position! :D Which is clearly what the kind hearted judges did when I took my silver test in 2003. God bless 'em, everyone!

[Debbie S]

I asked my coach about that as we were working on my backspin the other day. The prevailing opinion of most coaches is that it's subjective as to whether the judge will count total revs or just revs in a specific position. I posed the question b/c I wanted to know if judges expected a back scratch spin on the Bronze test or if any back upright spin would do (I find the backspin easier with my leg held to the side, rather than crossed in front). I was hoping the judges would just give me credit for anything where I happened to be spinning backward, but no such luck - my coach said that when another student of hers recently took (and passed) Bronze FS, the judges only counted the revs where she was in scratch position and not the revs where she was in the process of moving her free leg into position.

[jenlyon60]

Well... it also depends on the test.

On some tests (and I don't have the test sheets in front of me), the requirement is for X revolutions total.

On other tests, the requirement is for X revolutions in position. This is common where there is a requirement for change of foot (e.g. min 3 revolutions on each foot), or a requirement for change of position (e.g. min 3 revolutions in each position).

Having said all that, even if the requirement is for X revolutions total (say 4 revs), it is always best for the skater to be able to consistently do at least one extra revolution well. That ensures 2 things... first, it minimizes the "when did the counting start" issue we were discussing above, and second, it ensures that if something goes slightly wonky, the skater can probably eek out the required number of revs.

[doubletoe]

I asked my coach about that as we were working on my backspin the other day. The prevailing opinion of most coaches is that it's subjective as to whether the judge will count total revs or just revs in a specific position. I posed the question b/c I wanted to know if judges expected a back scratch spin on the Bronze test or if any back upright spin would do (I find the backspin easier with my leg held to the side, rather than crossed in front). I was hoping the judges would just give me credit for anything where I happened to be spinning backward, but no such luck - my coach said that when another student of hers recently took (and passed) Bronze FS, the judges only counted the revs where she was in scratch position and not the revs where she was in the process of moving her free leg into position.

That's kind of surprising. By definition, an upright reverse spin is an upright reverse spin regardless of whether the free leg is to the side or crossed over the skating leg. . .

[jenlyon60]

To me, an upright spin starts when the free leg has been brought around and the spin "hooked". Free leg doesn't necessarily have to be crossed, but it should be stabilized from "entry" position.

[gmskate]

I watched a bronze test where the skater completely missed the sit spin, was not asked to reskate it and passed the test. This was interesting to me because I thought that all required elements had to be completed to pass...is that not the case? I wish I had the luck to get such forgiving judges:-)

[nja]

I've seen a few like this too. The last one I saw, the tester didn't even come close to resembling a sit spin position, but still passed. It can come back to bite you, though. I know someone who passed their Bronze FS with very poor spinning and has now failed the Silver FS twice because of, guess what, a less than Bronze-level sit spin (among a couple of other problems). It is interesting how the judges have been reacting. Some really don't know how to judge adult skaters and will pass just about anything as long as the skater doesn't keel over. Others try to hold a standard closer to what they would expect the kids to do. None of the judges I know expect an adult to be scraping the ice with their backside on the sitspin, but IMO you need to do better than bend your supporting leg 1/2 inch with your free leg out to the side.